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(NYPost)   Ticketmaster makes a run for MLB business   (nypost.com) divider line 47
    More: Spiffy, Ticketmaster, Major League Baseball, MLB Advanced Media, StubHub, Ticketmaster makes  
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1397 clicks; posted to Business » on 18 Sep 2012 at 8:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-18 08:39:10 AM
Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?
 
2012-09-18 08:45:50 AM

drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?


Because, much like the MPAA, RIAA, software companies, and book publishers, teams a) think they're "entitled" to a cut of resales, and b) are afraid of their product being "devalued". (Although, in reality, they usually use the second as a flimsy excuse for the first.)
 
2012-09-18 08:49:54 AM
Ticketmaster sucks subby. Now pay your "spiffy tag fee".
 
2012-09-18 09:04:48 AM

drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?


Because if the tickets on stubhub are over face, then people will go to the yankees to buy unsold seats. If stubhub has them at $10, people will buy already sold tickets, not letting the yankees hose you with overpriced unsold seats
 
2012-09-18 09:05:08 AM
Whoo hoo! I'm sure Yankee fans won't mind paying a 10-dollar service fee on their $500 upper deck ticket.
 
2012-09-18 09:05:50 AM
Hey, MLB.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-09-18 09:10:29 AM
I loathe Ticketmaster.
 
2012-09-18 09:12:55 AM
This is like the Bonnano & Genovese crime families arguing about who gets what cut of the union
graft in the garment district.
 
2012-09-18 09:19:12 AM
Fark that, or "How to kill an anemic business model."
 
2012-09-18 09:26:46 AM
i read that as "ticklemonster makes run at MLB" and was trying to figure out how sandusky got out of jail.

/need moar coffee
 
2012-09-18 10:25:38 AM
Your tickets are overpriced, deal with it.
 
2012-09-18 10:36:37 AM
MLB can't sell tickets at $HIGH_PRICE so rather than do what the free market demands and lower their pricing, they're going to make it harder to sell tickets for $LOWER_PRICE. Nice.
 
2012-09-18 10:47:15 AM
So, basically, rather than the $10 stubhub service charge on an order, they're going to go the $30 ticketmaster service charge on each ticket, and the MLB gets a cut
 
2012-09-18 10:52:59 AM
TFA: The Yankees have threatened to start their own official resale site, but sources say they couldn't go it alone. And MLB probably doesn't have enough time to develop a private site for all the teams 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the MLB *did* do this some years back.  I live too far away to actually go to White Sox games... but I hear of their ticket exchange or whatever on White Sox forums that I visit.
 
2012-09-18 11:03:42 AM

downstairs: TFA: The Yankees have threatened to start their own official resale site, but sources say they couldn't go it alone. And MLB probably doesn't have enough time to develop a private site for all the teams 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the MLB *did* do this some years back.  I live too far away to actually go to White Sox games... but I hear of their ticket exchange or whatever on White Sox forums that I visit.


Yes, they did. The Ticket Exchange was awesome, but from what I understand they lacked the controls they wanted on season ticket holders, so they outsourced it.
 
2012-09-18 11:04:43 AM
How does StubHub get over the ticket scalping laws? There are events/games where you see the tickets going for 10x the face value of the ticket and in most states this is considered ticket scalping? If a person 1 block away tries to sell their tickets for more than $5 of face value, they are quickly arrested for scalping.
 
2012-09-18 11:14:40 AM

Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?

Because if the tickets on stubhub are over face, then people will go to the yankees to buy unsold seats. If stubhub has them at $10, people will buy already sold tickets, not letting the yankees hose you with overpriced unsold seats


Here's the thing. I enjoy going to Tigers games. I'm not enjoying them $50 much. If I can get a ticket on stubhub for $5? $10? Yeah, I'll go. Plus, while I'm there, I'll probably buy another $20 worth of concessions (a $5 hotdog meal and a couple $8 beers). Yeah, you're missing out on the $50 that I didn't spend on the ticket but I'm never going to spend that money. I am, though, spending the $20 in concessions that the guy who sold me the ticket wasn't going to spend because he wasn't interested in watching the Tigers play Kansas City on a Tuesday night in July.
 
2012-09-18 11:38:14 AM
Isn't the value of something what a buyer and selller agree to, not what someone wants to charge? I'm glad to see MLB take it in the shorts for being greedy. Enjoy your unsold seats.
 
2012-09-18 11:57:01 AM

meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?
***snip***


As someone mentioned upthread, "Brand value". For an example, let's use a promo the Brewers have done several times. The Brewers give one of their big sponsors 10k $15 tickets either for free or for like $1 a piece, then the sponsor turns around and gives the tickets away to customers for free or free with a purchase. Now the Brewers have 10k in the seats that they weren't going to be able to sell anyway, they get promotion from their partner, their partner gets a bump in sales and a ton of advertising in stadium (Welcome to Kohl's night, sponsored by Kohl's, and the first pitch is delivered from Kohl's to Kohl's by Kohl's). Additionally, they can say that those 10k seats were "sold," which is a huge bargaining chip when negotiating in stadium advertising prices AND, where the real money is, TV rights.

Seems counter-intuitive, but in stadium attendance has a huge impact on TV rights, since how many people are watching at home is in part extrapolated by attendance, and the TV contract value is based on how many people are watching now, and how many are going to be watching soon. That is part of why the Yankees have enough juice to run their own network, and the Pirates get so much revenue sharing.

The fallacy that actual attendance and paid attendance mean the same thing, goes right out the window if advertisers can easily see that thousands of tickets are showing up online at 90% of face value. then marketers realize the only people going are doing so because they can get your product for close enough to free that you have little to no value. And if people associate you with no value, then companies have no reason to associate their brands with yours.
 
2012-09-18 12:17:47 PM

roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?
***snip***

As someone mentioned upthread, "Brand value". For an example, let's use a promo the Brewers have done several times. The Brewers give one of their big sponsors 10k $15 tickets either for free or for like $1 a piece, then the sponsor turns around and gives the tickets away to customers for free or free with a purchase. Now the Brewers have 10k in the seats that they weren't going to be able to sell anyway, they get promotion from their partner, their partner gets a bump in sales and a ton of advertising in stadium (Welcome to Kohl's night, sponsored by Kohl's, and the first pitch is delivered from Kohl's to Kohl's by Kohl's). Additionally, they can say that those 10k seats were "sold," which is a huge bargaining chip when negotiating in stadium advertising prices AND, where the real money is, TV rights.

Seems counter-intuitive, but in stadium attendance has a huge impact on TV rights, since how many people are watching at home is in part extrapolated by attendance, and the TV contract value is based on how many people are watching now, and how many are going to be watching soon. That is part of why the Yankees have enough juice to run their own network, and the Pirates get so much revenue sharing.

The fallacy that actual attendance and paid attendance mean the same thing, goes right out the window if advertisers can easily see that thousands of tickets are showing up online at 90% of face value. then marketers realize the only people going are doing so because they can get your product for close enough to free that you have little to no value. And if people associate you with no value, then companies have no reason to associate their brands with yours.


If your team doesn't suck, your tickets will have value.

/except in Tampa
 
2012-09-18 12:21:30 PM

robbiex0r: roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?
***snip***

As someone mentioned upthread, "Brand value". For an example, let's use a promo the Brewers have done several times. The Brewers give one of their big sponsors 10k $15 tickets either for free or for like $1 a piece, then the sponsor turns around and gives the tickets away to customers for free or free with a purchase. Now the Brewers have 10k in the seats that they weren't going to be able to sell anyway, they get promotion from their partner, their partner gets a bump in sales and a ton of advertising in stadium (Welcome to Kohl's night, sponsored by Kohl's, and the first pitch is delivered from Kohl's to Kohl's by Kohl's). Additionally, they can say that those 10k seats were "sold," which is a huge bargaining chip when negotiating in stadium advertising prices AND, where the real money is, TV rights.

Seems counter-intuitive, but in stadium attendance has a huge impact on TV rights, since how many people are watching at home is in part extrapolated by attendance, and the TV contract value is based on how many people are watching now, and how many are going to be watching soon. That is part of why the Yankees have enough juice to run their own network, and the Pirates get so much revenue sharing.

The fallacy that actual attendance and paid attendance mean the same thing, goes right out the window if advertisers can easily see that thousands of tickets are showing up online at 90% of face value. then marketers realize the only people going are doing so because they can get your product for close enough to free that you have little to no value. And if people associate you with no value, then companies have no reason to associate their brands with yours.

If your team doesn't suck, your tickets will have value.

/except in Tampa


there is 'having value' and then there is 'let's see how much we can charge and see if they keep coming back'
 
2012-09-18 01:02:02 PM
uh.. "spiffy"?
In what respect, Charlie?
 
2012-09-18 01:07:34 PM

meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?

Because if the tickets on stubhub are over face, then people will go to the yankees to buy unsold seats. If stubhub has them at $10, people will buy already sold tickets, not letting the yankees hose you with overpriced unsold seats

Here's the thing. I enjoy going to Tigers games. I'm not enjoying them $50 much. If I can get a ticket on stubhub for $5? $10? Yeah, I'll go. Plus, while I'm there, I'll probably buy another $20 worth of concessions (a $5 hotdog meal and a couple $8 beers). Yeah, you're missing out on the $50 that I didn't spend on the ticket but I'm never going to spend that money. I am, though, spending the $20 in concessions that the guy who sold me the ticket wasn't going to spend because he wasn't interested in watching the Tigers play Kansas City on a Tuesday night in July.


I agree with you, and don't understand why more teams don't want butts in the seats. I always spend $20-30...

Although, I lived in Detroit 3 years ago and bought tiger den 27 game plan. Best seat and best location ever. I can't go back to regular seats.

Also I put in my vote for loathing ticketmaster, liking stubhub. As a season ticket holder, you can log on and select which tickets to sell for how much. Then when theyre bought, the buy just print it out. So easy.

/go tigers
//please?
 
2012-09-18 01:59:30 PM

bhcompy: So, basically, rather than the $10 stubhub service charge on an order, they're going to go the $30 ticketmaster service charge on each ticket, and the MLB gets a cut


I buy a fair share of mlb tickets. The service charge is not even close to 30$.
 
2012-09-18 02:03:20 PM

SuperT: bhcompy: So, basically, rather than the $10 stubhub service charge on an order, they're going to go the $30 ticketmaster service charge on each ticket, and the MLB gets a cut

I buy a fair share of mlb tickets. The service charge is not even close to 30$ yet.

 
2012-09-18 02:33:04 PM

bhcompy: SuperT: bhcompy: So, basically, rather than the $10 stubhub service charge on an order, they're going to go the $30 ticketmaster service charge on each ticket, and the MLB gets a cut

I buy a fair share of mlb tickets. The service charge is not even close to 30$ yet.


If they go with Ticketmaster, it's higher prices for the fan regardless. MLB's main complaint with StubHub is that StubHub won't set a price floor.
 
2012-09-18 02:54:58 PM

nolafark: How does StubHub get over the ticket scalping laws? There are events/games where you see the tickets going for 10x the face value of the ticket and in most states this is considered ticket scalping? If a person 1 block away tries to sell their tickets for more than $5 of face value, they are quickly arrested for scalping.


In Arlington, StubHub has a table in the lobby of the Marriot next door to the Ballpark.
 
2012-09-18 02:57:53 PM

SuperT: bhcompy: So, basically, rather than the $10 stubhub service charge on an order, they're going to go the $30 ticketmaster service charge on each ticket, and the MLB gets a cut

I buy a fair share of mlb tickets. The service charge is not even close to 30$.


I just bought Rangers playoff tickets - $40+$6 crap fee.
 
2012-09-18 03:19:10 PM

robbiex0r: roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory:
***snip***
If your team doesn't suck, your tickets will have value.

/except in Tampa


I get that you are being sarcastic, but the fact is the teams want in on the resale because, just like video games, books, DVDs, etc., they feel that no one else should be able to make money on their product. Additionally, it is not about "actual value", in my example no one paid for the "$15" seats, it is about convincing advertisers that the team provides a worthwhile venue to showcase their brands. If thousands of tickets are on Stubhub at $1 a piece, the perceived value to advertisers is lowered, no matter how many people actually show up.

This is the same reason that teams remove or cover up seats to manipulate their sellout and attendance numbers. If a team has a stadium with 100k seats and averages 70% capacity, that is not as attractive to marketers as a team that has 45k seats and is at 100% capacity. And selling ad space and TV contracts is where the actual money is in sports. Ticket and in stadium sales are a much smaller percentage of revenue.
 
2012-09-18 03:39:18 PM

nolafark: How does StubHub get over the ticket scalping laws? There are events/games where you see the tickets going for 10x the face value of the ticket and in most states this is considered ticket scalping? If a person 1 block away tries to sell their tickets for more than $5 of face value, they are quickly arrested for scalping.


Scalping laws are like prostitution laws: The prosecutors are more interested in keeping up a good appearance on the streets than in actually punishing people.
 
2012-09-18 03:44:23 PM

roc6783: robbiex0r: roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory:
***snip***
If your team doesn't suck, your tickets will have value.

/except in Tampa

I get that you are being sarcastic, but the fact is the teams want in on the resale because, just like video games, books, DVDs, etc., they feel that no one else should be able to make money on their product. Additionally, it is not about "actual value", in my example no one paid for the "$15" seats, it is about convincing advertisers that the team provides a worthwhile venue to showcase their brands. If thousands of tickets are on Stubhub at $1 a piece, the perceived value to advertisers is lowered, no matter how many people actually show up.

This is the same reason that teams remove or cover up seats to manipulate their sellout and attendance numbers. If a team has a stadium with 100k seats and averages 70% capacity, that is not as attractive to marketers as a team that has 45k seats and is at 100% capacity. And selling ad space and TV contracts is where the actual money is in sports. Ticket and in stadium sales are a much smaller percentage of revenue.


First off, in baseball there's significant money in ticket sales. The median MLB team sold 2.4 million tickets last year. The worst team sold 1.5 million tickets. Around 10 or so teams will sell over 3 million tickets. If you have an average ticket price of $30, that's $45 million for the A's or Rays. That's around $100 million or so for the top tier teams.

Secondly, there's a simple solution, to the problem: you auction off your tickets.
 
2012-09-18 04:18:28 PM

meanmutton: roc6783: robbiex0r: roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory:
***snip***

Secondly, there's a simple solution, to the problem: you auction off your tickets.


How does that stop people from buying season tickets, then selling the ones they don't want for $1 or selling high value tickets for over face value?

Several teams have started using demand based pricing, but their floor will always be the season ticket package price, ie you won't get a ticket for less than the season ticket price, but you may pay a whole lot more for important games.

Also, re: Ticket sales revenue vs. everything else: The Rangers just signed a contract for $3 billion over 20 years or $150 mil per year. So even if they draw 3 million at $30/per ticket, they are still making triple that by simply allowing Fox to broadcast their games. Teams care about attendance as it relates to the advertising they sell. Why do you think the Yankees have no problem breaking even/losing money on baseball operations? Because they make $4 billion a year from YES.
 
2012-09-18 04:18:52 PM
I might be some kinda moron, but what's to stop anyone from using Craigslist?
 
2012-09-18 04:20:22 PM

nolafark: How does StubHub get over the ticket scalping laws? There are events/games where you see the tickets going for 10x the face value of the ticket and in most states this is considered ticket scalping? If a person 1 block away tries to sell their tickets for more than $5 of face value, they are quickly arrested for scalping.



Not sure, but I think any state with anti-scalping laws offers a license for ticket brokers.  They don't care about the scalping, they want licencing/tax revenue.
 
I'm pretty sure this was how it was in Illinois.  I had to go to court for a stupid open container ticket I got at a White Sox game.  All the scalpers caught on the street were there too.  But I know for a fact that there are ticket brokers openly advertising in Illinois (and charging over face value).
 
So I think the crime was brokering tickets without a license.
 
2012-09-18 04:51:33 PM

CanuckInCA: I might be some kinda moron, but what's to stop anyone from using Craigslist?


It's nowhere near as convenient. For example (I could be wrong), I don't think you can print your tickets out at home via Craigslist.
 
2012-09-18 05:03:46 PM

robbiex0r: If your team doesn't suck, your tickets will have value.

/except in Tampa



Yep. I paid $10 per ticket (plus StubHub fees) to sit 10 rows behind home plate at the Rays/Red Sox game last night.

/still didn't get my money's worth
 
2012-09-18 05:14:54 PM
Step 1: Buy minor league tickets at the booth 10 minutes before game start for less than $20
Step 2: Sit in primo seats
Step 3: Enjoy baseball & beer

/fark MLB
 
2012-09-18 06:24:32 PM
"Spiffy"? Yeah, no.
 
2012-09-18 09:52:19 PM

nolafark: How does StubHub get over the ticket scalping laws? There are events/games where you see the tickets going for 10x the face value of the ticket and in most states this is considered ticket scalping? If a person 1 block away tries to sell their tickets for more than $5 of face value, they are quickly arrested for scalping.


Some states I think get around this by revising the scalping laws to say you can't do it within "x" distance of the venue.
 
2012-09-18 11:31:45 PM

roc6783: meanmutton: roc6783: robbiex0r: roc6783: meanmutton: Dead for Tax Reasons: drewogatory:
***snip***

Secondly, there's a simple solution, to the problem: you auction off your tickets.

How does that stop people from buying season tickets, then selling the ones they don't want for $1 or selling high value tickets for over face value?


The only reason people buy season tickets and sell off less valuable ones is because there are other games which are under-valued. Having an auction-based pricing means that you're charging more for the more valuable games and less for the less valuable games. Assume you're talking about the Bulls. Yeah, your season ticket holders are buying the entire package because they want the Lakers, the Heat, the competitive games. They don't want the Bobcats or the Cavs but they buy them in order to get the Lakers and the Heat. They're basically over-valuing the Lakers and Heat games by the value of the Bobcats and Cavs games they're going to ditch. They'll overpay on an auction to get those.

Several teams have started using demand based pricing, but their floor will always be the season ticket package price, ie you won't get a ticket for less than the season ticket price, but you may pay a whole lot more for important games.


Anyone who does that leaves money on the table. The floor should be $1 because the goal should be to milk every last penny out of the gate while still filling the arena because they're making around $7.50 profit on an $8.00 beer.


Also, re: Ticket sales revenue vs. everything else: The Rangers just signed a contract for $3 billion over 20 years or $150 mil per year. So even if they draw 3 million at $30/per ticket, they are still making triple that by simply allowing Fox to broadcast their games. Teams care about attendance as it relates to the advertising they sell. Why do you think the Yankees have no problem breaking even/losing money on baseball operations? Because they make $4 billion a year from YES.


Your math is incorrect. 3 million x $30 = $90 million, which is 60% of $150 million. If you assume the typical fan spends $20 in concessions per game, that's an extra $60 million in revenue. I'd argue that the Rangers are making about the same revenue from people actually attending the games that they do from TV.

The Yankees are the Yankees and are an extreme case. That said, their average ticket price is much higher than anyone else. Maybe more in the $75 range. They're making in the $250-300 million range in gate receipts alone. Forbes says that YES pulls in around $400 million a year so again, the attendance + concessions is about the same as the TV money.
 
2012-09-19 02:51:42 AM

Joe_diGriz: drewogatory: Why do teams care if people take a loss on ducats that they have already purchased at face value?

Because, much like the MPAA, RIAA, software companies, and book publishers, teams a) think they're "entitled" to a cut of resales, and b) are afraid of their product being "devalued". (Although, in reality, they usually use the second as a flimsy excuse for the first.)


I think it has more to do with the cheaper tickets competing with the box office tickets that havent been sold yet.... but nice attempt to weasel your hatred for the RIAA into this.

/ NTTIAWRT
 
2012-09-19 01:14:12 PM
Doesn't Ticketmaster own StubHub? (or they were subsidiaries of the same parent business)
 
2012-09-19 01:30:05 PM

Donnchadha: Doesn't Ticketmaster own StubHub? (or they were subsidiaries of the same parent business)


Live Nation I think. Same bastards, different name.
 
2012-09-19 02:11:44 PM

drewogatory: Donnchadha: Doesn't Ticketmaster own StubHub? (or they were subsidiaries of the same parent business)

Live Nation I think. Same bastards, different name.


Ah, that's right -- I was thinking of Live Nation
 
2012-09-19 02:19:18 PM
eBay owns StubHub. I know this because StubHub owns the company I work for now. StubHub and TicketMaster are very separate, I assure you.
 
2012-09-19 05:54:35 PM

SCUBA_Archer: Isn't the value of something what a buyer and selller agree to, not what someone wants to charge? I'm glad to see MLB take it in the shorts for being greedy. Enjoy your unsold seats.


Yeah, people will avoid the games if they are forced to pay for the seat plus service charge per ticket, the owners have never been accused of being that bright though.........

And spiffy tag? Seriously? Ticketmaster has never been spiffy, they can rot for all I care.
 
2012-09-20 07:27:31 PM
Best use of the Spiffy tag since 9/11.
 
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