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(The Business Journals)   Remember that MBA degree that was supposed to make you a millionaire? Yeah, not so much   (bizjournals.com) divider line 81
    More: Followup, MBA, GMAC, young professional, bright spot, application software, business strategy, Wall Street Journal, Jawed Karim  
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4020 clicks; posted to Business » on 18 Sep 2012 at 6:25 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-18 03:01:03 AM  
You mean Shannon Doherty and a private equity group would lie to me in order to sell me a worthless scrap of paper for $100,000? I think you're just jealous that with an MBA from Kaplan University or DeVry a graduate could get a $0.50/hr raise at their barrista or muffler-shop job and when extrapolated over the 50 years they'll have to work there, that $0.50/hr raise works out to $50,000. Wouldn't you like to have and extra $50,000?
 
2012-09-18 06:32:46 AM  

Cubansaltyballs: You mean Shannon Doherty and a private equity group would lie to me in order to sell me a worthless scrap of paper for $100,000? I think you're just jealous that with an MBA from Kaplan University or DeVry a graduate could get a $0.50/hr raise at their barrista or muffler-shop job and when extrapolated over the 50 years they'll have to work there, that $0.50/hr raise works out to $50,000. Wouldn't you like to have and extra $50,000?


this makes no sense.
 
2012-09-18 06:40:00 AM  
I think the role of the MBA has changed.

15 years ago it was a ticket to a cushy job. There weren't thaaaat many of them around, and they earned well. Demand went up around the time the first .com bubble popped, and a lot of schools started offering them, and cranked out too many MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes who didn't really have that much to offer. Straight from undergrad to an MBA program and then into the workforce thinking theyd be a six figga nubian overnight was just not the case any more. An MBA helps, but nto as much as they tell you it will, at least not for the first several years.

Much like any degree or reschooling, after you get out it takes a few years to gain traction and get experience. The MBA certainly helps the long term prospects but its not a golden ticket to riches any longer, if indeed it ever was, unless youre from Stanford or Harvard or Wharton or one of the other elites.

The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.

I think people should still persue one if they need it to help their current careers, but for people who say "yknow, I don't know what I want to do with my life, I want to get out of [field x] and make a ton of money over night, I know, ill get an mba!" is not a good plan. Wasn't a good one in 2004 when I got mine, probably even less of a good idea now, since at least in my era of the prehousing growth spurt, MBAs could still get jobs starting at 80k or so, even ones which weren't that good. I wonder if that's the case now?
 
2012-09-18 07:03:06 AM  
Obvious tag busy studying?
 
2012-09-18 07:04:21 AM  

abhorrent1: Obvious tag busy studying?


no he's making copies and getting coffee for his manager at his internship.
 
2012-09-18 07:04:43 AM  
Is this the thread where we farmers claim to make tons of cash with our GED we got when we were 16?



/dnrtfa
 
2012-09-18 07:16:22 AM  
Clearly these folks just need to actualize their human capital and identify their centers of excellence. Commoditize their own dog food and incentivize the go-live of the mission-critical low-hanging fruit circle back around.
 
2012-09-18 07:17:31 AM  
None of the Founding Fathers had an MBA, why would I need one?

/has an MBA
 
2012-09-18 07:38:15 AM  

jayhawk88: Clearly these folks just need to actualize their human capital and identify their centers of excellence. Commoditize their own dog food and incentivize the go-live of the mission-critical low-hanging fruit circle back around.


*SMACK*

I'm sorry, dude. That was a reflex.
 
2012-09-18 07:50:08 AM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-18 07:57:04 AM  
What an odd headline for an article that only discusses admissions statistics...

/subby's trollin'
 
2012-09-18 08:07:56 AM  

stuhayes2010: Is this the thread where we farmers claim to make tons of cash with our GED we got when we were 16?



/dnrtfa


To farm successfully you need to know a little bit of each:

Biology
Trig level math
Business/Economics
Mechanics
Chemistry

Among other things. It is a "jack of all trades" type of career.

My father has a HS Diploma and was accepted to college, but decided to stay on the farm a few years to make some more money before college

He never went to college and the farm makes at least six figures a year. So....I think he made the right choice. My grandfather (his dad) is a farmer as well. He made a killing in the stock market and is a financial genius. I don't know if he has a diploma or not (he has stories about going to school, but I don't know if he finished).

Of course, I was the dummy who went to college and got a BS and now I am struggling to buy a house. But that was influenced by the fact that I am the younger son, and my older brother was groomed to be the farmer.....and is failing at that.

/trying to get back into farming....less stress then an office environment
//csb
 
2012-09-18 08:10:06 AM  

gsiofa: What an odd headline for an article that only discusses admissions statistics...

/subby's trollin'


Yeah, enrollment is down from multiyear highs, which were caused by the economic downturn. So...recovery?...Panic?...Headline??
 
2012-09-18 08:21:30 AM  

Father_Jack: The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.


That's not value; that's cronyism. Not that it invalidates your point, but (just sayin') the MBA never had any value.

It's "business administration" FFS. It wouldn't be nearly as sparkly if it was called "certified expert of red tape", and the difference is purely marketing.
 
2012-09-18 09:00:35 AM  
I'd say the real reason MBA apps are dropping is because a ton of people applied in 2009 and 2010 because they got laid off and they didn't expect to be hired anywhere soon. (It's what I did, and many of my former colleagues.) The drop in MBA apps is probably a good sign for the economy.
 
2012-09-18 09:05:32 AM  
What is the point of an MBA? Do you actually learn something of value, or is it a meaningless exercise giving you a ticket to middle-management?
 
2012-09-18 09:18:24 AM  
LouDobbsAwaaaay: What is the point of an MBA? Do you actually learn something of value, or is it a meaningless exercise giving you a ticket to middle-management?

its a decent piece of paper to serve as a backup plan to the other backup plans. besides companies finally figured out middle management was sucking them dry, hence the reductions in the past year.

/finishing mine in may
 
2012-09-18 09:18:45 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: What is the point of an MBA? Do you actually learn something of value, or is it a meaningless exercise giving you a ticket to middle-management?


you learn which drawer stationary goes in and the best location around the keyboard for your coffee mug.
 
2012-09-18 09:22:22 AM  

Father_Jack: The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.


So an MBA is more like being part of a syndicate or mafia.
 
2012-09-18 09:25:55 AM  
images.askmen.com

"I got me one of them MBAs and look how I turned out."
 
2012-09-18 09:40:56 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: What is the point of an MBA? Do you actually learn something of value, or is it a meaningless exercise giving you a ticket to middle-management?


It's an opportunity to learn something that's more often seen as an investment. The MBA program doesn't turn people into idiots; it's merely a system usurped to nurture idiots into sophisticated idiocy.

The idea of an education is good, but only when driven by curiosity. Education is nowadays sold as a means of making money, and nothing good can come from that. When a curious person gets a question wrong, they ask what the truth is. When a greedy person gets a question wrong, they demand their grade be changed. The classrooms get packed with people applying for all the wrong reasons until you get saturation, then dilution, then implosion. I'm not surprised to hear MBA enrollment is down. I just wonder where the horde will move to next. They've already overrun IT, law and engineering.
 
2012-09-18 09:46:02 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Father_Jack: The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.

So an MBA is more like being part of a syndicate or mafia.




dragonchild: Father_Jack: The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.

That's not value; that's cronyism. Not that it invalidates your point, but (just sayin') the MBA never had any value.

It's "business administration" FFS. It wouldn't be nearly as sparkly if it was called "certified expert of red tape", and the difference is purely marketing.


well, if networking is cronyism/mafia to you guys, well, i guess it is. Hyperbole for the win!
 
2012-09-18 09:55:08 AM  
I started working in health care right out of high school, still with the same health system today. Got a BS in my late 20s. Got my MBA last year. Both skins got me nice promotions and pay raises. Had to have the MBA to move into my current position and my goal position another level up. The company paid 40% of my undergrad and 60% of my MBA so I'm not overloaded with debt. It's been ok for me.

/YMMV
 
2012-09-18 10:10:19 AM  
I finished my MBA in August, got offered a job yesterday that pays double what I was making, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

Did my MBA 100% online, to boot.

/From a brick-and-mortar university, where I started my undergrad... not DeVry, Phoenix or Southeastern Idaho Tech of New Hampshire
//Paid $15K cash
///Loved the program, looking for my next education opportunity
////Suck it, haters
 
2012-09-18 10:16:07 AM  
The schools that have experienced the largest drops are schools that wall street recruits from heavily. An MBA is typically something someone gets in finance after a few years experience at an investment bank. The banks didn't exactly hire a lot of people in the 2008-2009 time frame thanks to their industry collapsing. Thus, there aren't as many people that need an MBA from a top school at the moment.
 
2012-09-18 10:23:32 AM  

Lt. Col. Angus: I finished my MBA in August, got offered a job yesterday that pays double what I was making, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.


Meh. Without knowing what you were making before, it doesn't tell us much. Sure, if you were making $30K annually, an MBA will blow your sh*t up. If you're already making $80K+, it's much more of a crapshoot.
 
2012-09-18 10:24:15 AM  
As someone with a degree in computer science and film (I place a higher importance on film), I was never very impressed by people with an MBA. But if the whole corporate networking thing doesn't make you want to vomit, you could definitely make more money with an MBA than someone like me.
 
2012-09-18 10:28:04 AM  

Lt. Col. Angus: Did my MBA 100% online, to boot.


To boot.

/Pure genius.
 
2012-09-18 10:56:22 AM  

Lt. Col. Angus: I finished my MBA in August, got offered a job yesterday that pays double what I was making, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

Did my MBA 100% online, to boot.

/From a brick-and-mortar university, where I started my undergrad... not DeVry, Phoenix or Southeastern Idaho Tech of New Hampshire
//Paid $15K cash
///Loved the program, looking for my next education opportunity
////Suck it, haters


What school? Inquiring minds...
 
2012-09-18 10:57:18 AM  
I've hired maybe 60-70 people in the course of my career.  Meaning I've looked at hundreds of resumes.  And conducted hundreds of interviews.  Never once did I even pay attention to the "education" section of a resume, or ask about such in any interview.
 
2012-09-18 11:04:57 AM  

downstairs: I've hired maybe 60-70 people in the course of my career.  Meaning I've looked at hundreds of resumes.  And conducted hundreds of interviews.  Never once did I even pay attention to the "education" section of a resume, or ask about such in any interview.


What kind of jobs were you hiring for?
 
2012-09-18 11:11:43 AM  

jayhawk88: Clearly these folks just need to actualize their human capital and identify their centers of excellence. Commoditize their own dog food and incentivize the go-live of the mission-critical low-hanging fruit circle back around.


+1, but needs more stakeholders.
 
2012-09-18 11:19:57 AM  

Sliding Carp: jayhawk88: Clearly these folks just need to actualize their human capital and identify their centers of excellence. Commoditize their own dog food and incentivize the go-live of the mission-critical low-hanging fruit circle back around.

+1, but needs more stakeholders.


There is a disturbing lack of synergy in that post as well.
 
2012-09-18 11:22:15 AM  
one big reason for the decline: far fewer people want to work in investment banking these days. the crisis severely impacted its reputation, compensation levels at many firms are falling, and work locations are changing: Deutsche Bank is in the middle of moving its entire trading operation from NYC to Jacksonville to cut costs. Goldman Sachs is moving jobs from Wall Street to Salt Lake City.

the investment banking "lifestyle" is gone in the United States.

an MBA is pretty much required for these jobs. the schools that were most exposed to investment banking recruitment are seeing the biggest drop-offs in applications, with Columbia leading the way.
 
2012-09-18 11:28:26 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Meh. Without knowing what you were making before, it doesn't tell us much. Sure, if you were making $30K annually, an MBA will blow your sh*t up. If you're already making $80K+, it's much more of a crapshoot.


True.... and it was more on the lower end of the scale.

A few of my current employees are students, and they asked me about going to grad school right after finishing undergrad. My advice was (and still is): to get the job you *want* with a graduate degree, you're going to have to have five to ten years of experience *and* the degree.

It doesn't really matter what order you choose to do this.... but you're going to have to acquire both at some point.
 
2012-09-18 11:32:47 AM  

Hot Carl To Go: What school? Inquiring minds...


collegefootballbelt.com

www.babbittssportscenter.com

larrybrownsports.com

/hangs head in shame
 
2012-09-18 11:35:59 AM  

dumbobruni: far fewer people want to work in investment banking these days. the crisis severely impacted its reputation, compensation levels at many firms are falling, and work locations are changing


No, kinda, and yes.

Most of the investment banking jobs are being outsourced now, which is what happens when a jig is up. If these people were really all that indispensable to begin with, the banks wouldn't be in such a rush to replace them with gigantic cubicle sweatshops in Bangalore. Compensation is falling and work locations are changing, but only in that the replacements work for a lot less, and live in cheaper areas.

But banking never had a "reputation" to begin with, unless you mean the sham they were selling to aspiring analysts. There might have been a rose-colored bubble of sorts where bankers drinking with other bankers believed they were hot shiat, but for the 98% of Americans who don't live in NYC and frankly even most of those who do, Wall Street was where you went when your desperation or lust for money overcame your shame, or lack thereof. I've said it before: No one -- not a single soul -- goes to Wall Street to make the world a better place. You don't even go there if you have an idea. It's not a place to nurture a passion or chase a dream. People go there to make money by any means that does not involve getting dirt or blood on their own hands. The laughable attempts at justification come later.

Anyway, point is, the shiny polish is gone not because these people had any sense of shame to begin with; the well just dried up. Word's gotten out that the banks aren't hiring, so it's not the place to go for an easy path to money anymore. As I said, I wonder what these people are looking at next. If you're an investor it's where the next bubble will be, and if you're a careerist you pray the horde doesn't develop the delusion that pretending to be you is easy money.
 
2012-09-18 11:38:54 AM  

Lt. Col. Angus: I finished my MBA in August, got offered a job yesterday that pays double what I was making, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

Did my MBA 100% online, to boot.

/From a brick-and-mortar university, where I started my undergrad... not DeVry, Phoenix or Southeastern Idaho Tech of New Hampshire
//Paid $15K cash
///Loved the program, looking for my next education opportunity
////Suck it, haters


...so you make, what, $35/hour now? Hooray you.
 
2012-09-18 11:56:11 AM  

Father_Jack:

The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.


I think the problem with that is a good percentage of the people I met in the program didn't do jack with their MBA either.
 
2012-09-18 11:56:12 AM  
I was seriously considering an MBA or a JD about ten years ago- very glad now that I didn't do either one. As it is, I have managed to carve out a comfortable living with an MA in a truly obscure branch of the Humanities. Granted, my job has nothing to do with my degree.

dragonchild: LouDobbsAwaaaay: What is the point of an MBA? Do you actually learn something of value, or is it a meaningless exercise giving you a ticket to middle-management?

It's an opportunity to learn something that's more often seen as an investment. The MBA program doesn't turn people into idiots; it's merely a system usurped to nurture idiots into sophisticated idiocy.

The idea of an education is good, but only when driven by curiosity. Education is nowadays sold as a means of making money, and nothing good can come from that. When a curious person gets a question wrong, they ask what the truth is. When a greedy person gets a question wrong, they demand their grade be changed. The classrooms get packed with people applying for all the wrong reasons until you get saturation, then dilution, then implosion. I'm not surprised to hear MBA enrollment is down. I just wonder where the horde will move to next. They've already overrun IT, law and engineering.


Agree completely. There needs to be a clearer distinction between graduate school and vocational school. MBA, JD, and medical programs fall into the latter.
 
2012-09-18 12:00:50 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Father_Jack:

The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.

I think the problem with that is a good percentage of the people I met in the program didn't do jack with their MBA either.


Some people don't find the concept of networking and meeting people for the pure purpose of furthering their career repellent. Which is why I never got into business or law.
 
2012-09-18 12:01:11 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Lt. Col. Angus: I finished my MBA in August, got offered a job yesterday that pays double what I was making, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

Meh. Without knowing what you were making before, it doesn't tell us much. Sure, if you were making $30K annually, an MBA will blow your sh*t up. If you're already making $80K+, it's much more of a crapshoot.


This is exactly my problem. I have been promoted to MBA type responsibilities and people I work with do act impressed when I say I have an MBA, but most of my promotion comes form experience in my field and knowledge about the industry and out products.

But I'm not bitter about it. It's great to know how to read balance sheets and understand why strategic decisions were made, but I probably could have learned this without spending the money. I'd probably still do it again anyway. I kind of like school. I had to talk myself out of going back for a JD.
 
2012-09-18 12:04:21 PM  

AcneVulgaris: ...so you make, what, $35/hour now? Hooray you.


More, but $35/hour is more than double the national average. That's nothing to be ashamed of, I'd think.
 
2012-09-18 12:05:13 PM  

dragonchild: dumbobruni: far fewer people want to work in investment banking these days. the crisis severely impacted its reputation, compensation levels at many firms are falling, and work locations are changing

No, kinda, and yes.

Most of the investment banking jobs are being outsourced now, which is what happens when a jig is up. If these people were really all that indispensable to begin with, the banks wouldn't be in such a rush to replace them with gigantic cubicle sweatshops in Bangalore. Compensation is falling and work locations are changing, but only in that the replacements work for a lot less, and live in cheaper areas.

But banking never had a "reputation" to begin with, unless you mean the sham they were selling to aspiring analysts. There might have been a rose-colored bubble of sorts where bankers drinking with other bankers believed they were hot shiat, but for the 98% of Americans who don't live in NYC and frankly even most of those who do, Wall Street was where you went when your desperation or lust for money overcame your shame, or lack thereof. I've said it before: No one -- not a single soul -- goes to Wall Street to make the world a better place. You don't even go there if you have an idea. It's not a place to nurture a passion or chase a dream. People go there to make money by any means that does not involve getting dirt or blood on their own hands. The laughable attempts at justification come later.

Anyway, point is, the shiny polish is gone not because these people had any sense of shame to begin with; the well just dried up. Word's gotten out that the banks aren't hiring, so it's not the place to go for an easy path to money anymore. As I said, I wonder what these people are looking at next. If you're an investor it's where the next bubble will be, and if you're a careerist you pray the horde doesn't develop the delusion that pretending to be you is easy money.


i think our perspectives are a bit different here. i'm a new yorker who is also a wall street refugee.

might have been? there most definitely was. and they did believe they were making the world a better place.

they thought they were hot shiat because they were treated that way in New York.....wall street was the driver of NYC's economic gains in the 2000s. shiny new condos, hot restaurants, and glammy bottle service nightclubs all sprung up to cater to them.

where did my colleagues go? technology startups.
 
2012-09-18 12:05:43 PM  

Mugato: Rapmaster2000: Father_Jack:

The real value of the MBA is the people you meet in the program and how they help you network later.

I think the problem with that is a good percentage of the people I met in the program didn't do jack with their MBA either.

Some people don't find the concept of networking and meeting people for the pure purpose of furthering their career repellent. Which is why I never got into business or law.


I don't actually have a problem with it. Part of my advancement has always been my ability to schmooze, crack jokes, and be an all-around good time dude. That's just life and there's nothing dishonest about it so why not?
 
2012-09-18 12:07:23 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I think the problem with that is a good percentage of the people I met in the program didn't do jack with their MBA either.


This is where business school is much like law school. Tier 3 programs are a complete waste of time in that regard. If you work some place that will pay for an MBA and promote you when you're done, great. Go for the local school and knock it out. If you're at a top program, chances are you're going to school with people that are going somewhere. Sure, a lot of it is self selection. It's a major in pain the ass to get in to a top program and the people willing to jump through the hoops are the people who will be putting effort in to their careers. However, you probably won't meet them elsewhere.

That said, to get in you have to be one of those people yourself. Can you get far without it if you're that type of person? Probably. However, the connections you make can make a huge difference. It's not so much cronyism as meeting people with like interests. If you want to start a startup after school, you'll meet people going in to VC. You know who to call to get funding. etc, etc.
 
2012-09-18 12:22:14 PM  

Rapmaster2000: This is exactly my problem. I have been promoted to MBA type responsibilities and people I work with do act impressed when I say I have an MBA, but most of my promotion comes form experience in my field and knowledge about the industry and out products.

But I'm not bitter about it. It's great to know how to read balance sheets and understand why strategic decisions were made, but I probably could have learned this without spending the money. I'd probably still do it again anyway. I kind of like school. I had to talk myself out of going back for a JD.


I actually enjoyed the learning part of it as well. Yes, "career advancement" was one of the drivers behind pursuing my MBA, but learning how things worked on much larger scale was the big thing. I've *always* been interested in the processes behind firm-wide decisions, so this helped me understand that.

My new job has tuition reimbursement, and I plan to take full advantage when it kicks in.

I was looking at doing either a graduate certificate in Lean Six Sigma / Process Improvement (Western Kentucky and East Carolina offer an online one, among others) or finding a Masters in Finance program to pursue.

I really didn't enjoy learning in high school and the early part of undergrad, probably because it came way too easily. When I went back (after about six years in the workforce) to finish my undergrad and get my MBA, I plowed through the material, and really found it interesting.
 
2012-09-18 12:24:44 PM  

Father_Jack: ***snip***
I think people should still persue one if they need it to help their current careers, but for people who say "yknow, I don't know what I want to do with my life, I want to get out of [field x] and make a ton of money over night, I know, ill get an mba!" is not a good plan. Wasn't a good one in 2004 when I got mine, probably even less of a good idea now, since at least in my era of the prehousing growth spurt, MBAs could still get jobs starting at 80k or so, even ones which weren't that good. I wonder if that's the case now?


As someone who has one, has been at his current job for 5 years, is making half that, and has gotten 3 phone screens on over 100 applications in the last year, it is not a ticket anywhere. I work in the recruiting industry, and from what I have seen, an MBA is just like a bachelor's at this point. You are going to hit a ceiling if you don't have it, especially if you want to go to another company.

Some of the hottest hires right now are people with EE/CS degrees, MBAs, and sales experience. Companies want people who are technical wizards, but can relate well to other functional areas and convince them to buy software and ongoing support services.

//Not even a technical charlatan, still looking though
 
2012-09-18 12:40:22 PM  

Lt. Col. Angus: Rapmaster2000: ***snip***
I really didn't enjoy learning in high school and the early part of undergrad, probably because it came way too easily. When I went back (after about six years in the workforce) to finish my undergrad and get my MBA, I plowed through the material, and really found it interesting.


Completely agree. I went back because I was bored as hell at work and knew that once I had kids, my wife would not be quite as on board with me not being around from 8am-12am. The classes were interesting (except Production Operations, stupid statistics), but not difficult. What was difficult was finding time outside of class to dedicate to classes.

//The constant stress with no sleep was a good prep for a baby though.
 
2012-09-18 12:45:57 PM  
Correlation != Causation...

This is the same reason other college degrees are worth less than ever. It used to be that smart people went college....and people with business aptitude/connections/work experience got MBAs. The correlated effect was that those things earned more money.

Then other people decided to do it too - but they weren't smart/skilled/talented. They got an expensive piece of paper and wondered why they didn't get 150k jobs.
 
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