SilentStrider: I really wish someone would tell that guy to stfu and gbtw.

Apparently, his job is to go around begging other nations to start wars on Israel's behalf. But, the shutting the fark up part would be nice for a freakin' change.

Ah, see, here's the proof that he's gotten on Romney's press team: he blames everyone but himself for his own actions. Clearly Republican.

Two words: Fark Israel.

Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

Because Jesus.

SilentStrider: I really wish someone would tell that guy to stfu and gbtw.

Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

stpauler: Two words: Fark Israel.

All of these.

stpauler: Two words: Fark Israel.

Seriously. How much shiat would we not be involved in if we just left things to their own devices... You all want to claim a rock and hill as the basis of your various Religions of Peace(tm)? Either get along, or blow each other to hell- but we'll be... uhh.. over there...

Vodka Zombie: SilentStrider: I really wish someone would tell that guy to stfu and gbtw.

Apparently, his job is to go around begging other nations to start wars on Israel's behalf. But, the shutting the fark up part would be nice for a freakin' change.

Isreal, the geopolitical equivalent of the drunken frat boy who grabs every chick's ass at the bar, then expects his friends to jump in when one of their boyfriends wants to kick his ass.

O hai America. Plz to fight a war with Iran for us? Kthxbai.

I wish someone would approach Bibi and smack him across the face with some sort of fish. Maybe mackerel.

Also, INB4 we get called Anti-semites just because we don't want to fight a war on someone else's behalf.

There are nice people in Israel, and it is a nation worth supporting, but f Netanyahoo.

Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

Do Jews have an equivalent to 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'?

Famous Thamas: There are nice people in Israel, and it is a nation worth supporting, but f Netanyahoo.

The idea of the nation is worth supporting. The current nation-state is not.

SilentStrider: Dinobot: Also, INB4 we get called Anti-semites just because we don't want to fight a war on someone else's behalf.

Surprised it hasn't happened yet.

probably because we're all in the ignore list already

The "reasoning" I have heard (and you can take the term "reasoning" loosely) is as such:

Isreal occupies Jerusalem. When the second coming/rapture/megajesus comes down and starts obliterating the unclean; Jerusalem/Isrealies/SuperFundies will be spared. So the fundies in government are trying to: stay on the good side/manipulate/coddle the country that holds Jerusalem.

Yeah, its whacko. My own biases may have screwed up what I heard.

Not even his own cabinet believes this shiat.

And as soon as the Jethro states realize that gassing up their F350 will cost about a grand if we go to war with Iran, whatever tenuous support they might lend to blow up more muslims will quickly dissipate.

He's got to know that Obama is very likely to win with or without his statements. Does he think Obama will be any more well disposed to work with Israel after pulling this sort of shiat?

low_dazzle: Do Jews have an equivalent to 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'?

"The Shegez Who Raised Interest Rates"?

Because People in power are Stupid: Because Mormons and Jews get along so well together.

I AM KING OF THE MOOS!

This whole conflict between Israel and the Middle east has run its course, and it is time to do something about it.

We need to finally fix this problem.
We need a solution.

Elfich: The "reasoning" I have heard (and you can take the term "reasoning" loosely) is as such:

Isreal occupies Jerusalem. When the second coming/rapture/megajesus comes down and starts obliterating the unclean; Jerusalem/Isrealies/SuperFundies will be spared. So the fundies in government are trying to: stay on the good side/manipulate/coddle the country that holds Jerusalem.

Yeah, its whacko. My own biases may have screwed up what I heard.

Actually, the fundies believe God's also going to destroy the Jews because they deny the divinity of Christ.

The fundies don't actually care about the people of Israel. They just want to make sure the Jeebus Runway is left intact.

Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

Elfich: The "reasoning" I have heard (and you can take the term "reasoning" loosely) is as such:

Isreal occupies Jerusalem. When the second coming/rapture/megajesus comes down and starts obliterating the unclean; Jerusalem/Isrealies/SuperFundies will be spared. So the fundies in government are trying to: stay on the good side/manipulate/coddle the country that holds Jerusalem.

Yeah, its whacko. My own biases may have screwed up what I heard.

I've heard almost the same line of reasoning, but with a twist, from my crazy uncle, who is a sbc pastor,... attack iran to trigger the 2nd coming of jesus

stoli n coke: drunken frat boy

I like your analogy better than mine.

Gwyrddu: He's got to know that Obama is very likely to win with or without his statements. Does he think Obama will be any more well disposed to work with Israel after pulling this sort of shiat?

That's the part I don't understand. He's just asking for more unfavorable treatment in the next Obama administration than he would have gotten without his interference. And if he doesn't interfere and Romney wins, it's not like the GOP chickenhawks will suddenly dislike the idea of fighting stupid wars in the Middle East. Netanyahu's best play here was to do nothing and hope for a Romney win, but don't piss off Obama, the guy who will most likely win.

So, we've been hearing for forever that Iran is 2 years away from being able to make a nuclear weapon. In fact, that very same statement was made 2 months ago about Iran's nuclear capabilities. Now Netanyahu is saying that Iran is mere months away from having nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, there hasn't been any significant new coming out of Iran beyond them literally banning the use of the word "dollar" to try to prevent discussion about how sanctions have completely destroyed the exchange rate of the rial.

What happened since July that has moved production into lightspeed like he is claiming? Or has anyone bothered to ask how many months away they are? 24 maybe?

That article didn't really do the interview justice. I watched it yesterday and it was much more uncomfortable than it's made out to be. David Gregory asks Netanyahu whether or not Israel has been "thrown under the bus" by the Obama administration. He dodges the question and says that he's not going to get involved in election season politics. Gregory then presses him again, to the effect of "This is very important. Some people in the United States are going to see your silence as a tacit approval of Romney's statements. So once again, has the Obama administration thrown Israel under the bus?"

That's when the "There's no bus" line happens. It was a simple yes or no answer, and a pretty easy one in any case: "No, while we've had our disagreements about policy, the Obama administration is dedicated to its alliance with Israel, yadda yadda." Standard boilerplate response for international diplomacy. That he so obviously squirmed away from that question was evidence enough on its own for who he wants to see win the election.

Netanyahu is a post-traumatic a-hole.

blastoh: This whole conflict between Israel and the Middle east has run its course, and it is time to do something about it.

We need to finally fix this problem.
We need a solution.

I don't want to muck around with a whole bunch of different solutions. We need a solution that's final.

/obligingly completing the straight line

Bibi is an extremist scumbag.

And if you want the opposite end of the political spectrum from our electoral college process, just look at Israel's Proportional representation system. No matter how many reasonable people you can get on your side, there's always 30% of the electorate who want crazy crap.

Israel needs to annex all the 'occupied areas' and draft all the 17-to-30 year old 'palestinians' into their army. After three years of being well-paid and well-fed, I am sure most of the benefits of being citizens and total mobility will work out well for everyone ... like ... right after the elections.

/yes you won the war. That means you take in the displaced.

Dinobot: Elfich: The "reasoning" I have heard (and you can take the term "reasoning" loosely) is as such:

Isreal occupies Jerusalem. When the second coming/rapture/megajesus comes down and starts obliterating the unclean; Jerusalem/Isrealies/SuperFundies will be spared. So the fundies in government are trying to: stay on the good side/manipulate/coddle the country that holds Jerusalem.

Yeah, its whacko. My own biases may have screwed up what I heard.

I've heard almost the same line of reasoning, but with a twist, from my crazy uncle, who is a sbc pastor,... attack iran to trigger the 2nd coming of jesus

I'm sure that an all-powerful god is just sitting around waiting for mortals to start a war in order to make his return. It's in his appearance rider, right under where he demands red and green M&M's in his dressing room because he really likes Christmas.

blastoh: This whole conflict between Israel and the Middle east has run its course, and it is time to do something about it.

We need to finally fix this problem.
We need a solution.

A 2 state solution, perhaps?

Grungehamster: So, we've been hearing for forever that Iran is 2 years away from being able to make a nuclear weapon. In fact, that very same statement was made 2 months ago about Iran's nuclear capabilities. Now Netanyahu is saying that Iran is mere months away from having nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, there hasn't been any significant new coming out of Iran beyond them literally banning the use of the word "dollar" to try to prevent discussion about how sanctions have completely destroyed the exchange rate of the rial.

What happened since July that has moved production into lightspeed like he is claiming? Or has anyone bothered to ask how many months away they are? 24 maybe?

Netanyahu said that "in six months or so they'll be 90 percent of the way there,"

I'll give him some credit, I figured he'd say they'll have a bomb on November 5th.

Cythraul: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

xanadian: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

Because it's nice to have a staunch ally in a region that generally detests us. The whole Christian-ized "holy land" thing is just a cover for a more realistic strategic approach.

Can I get some specifics on the benefits of having an 'ally' in that region? And do those benefits outweigh the negatives, such as the rest of that cultural region having utter contempt for us for being involved with that ally?

Not sure. It seems somewhat logical that it's a good thing to have an ally in the middle of the cesspool that is the Middle East. I don't know if the good outweighs the bad though...that's a valid question.

Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

If the USG was unconditionally and eternally supporting Bibi's demands we would already have attacked Iran. Instead, President Obama told Bibi to stfu and gbtw.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative.

HMS_Blinkin: Gwyrddu: He's got to know that Obama is very likely to win with or without his statements. Does he think Obama will be any more well disposed to work with Israel after pulling this sort of shiat?

That's the part I don't understand. He's just asking for more unfavorable treatment in the next Obama administration than he would have gotten without his interference. And if he doesn't interfere and Romney wins, it's not like the GOP chickenhawks will suddenly dislike the idea of fighting stupid wars in the Middle East. Netanyahu's best play here was to do nothing and hope for a Romney win, but don't piss off Obama, the guy who will most likely win.

He's saying that the Salafist Sunnis in Libya are actually working for the shiate theocracy in Tehran (meaning the death of Ambassador Stevens was a political assassination arranged by the leadership of another country). Meanwhile, they have sped up their nuclear capabilities to the point that if we wait for November it may already be too late.

The idea isn't to get Obama to behave more in line next term. It is pressure to get him to attack or back an attack before the election to protect himself from foreign policy criticism.

Daveism: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

I meant more in the sense that it could serve as a base of operations for our military and that it's the one place in that region that isn't part of the anti-American nonsense that boils over with increasing frequency.

Put me down as another person who's been consistently baffled as to why Isreal gets such a free pass in politics and the media. Everyone is just dead afraid of coming right out and calling them on their (massive quantities of) bullshiat.

I mean, what is it they have exactly that all the western countries need so bad? Are they an important port city?

Or are a lot of people still really attatched to the idea that Isreal and Judaism are intertwined to the point where not supporting Isreal is Anti-Semitism?

Or do the Zionists just have enough money to buy off every Western government and make sure no one in the media on multiple continents takes to critical a look?

what has Israel ever done for us?

Famous Thamas: There are nice people in Israel, and it is a nation worth supporting, but f Netanyahoo.

Ah yes, nice country, that Israel:

Most racist country in the West.

Tarl3k: A 2 state solution, perhaps?

We had that until ONE of the states (not naming any names) started to illegally confiscate land from ANOTHER state (again, not naming any names)

This cocksucker should be crawling on his hands and knees to kiss our feet and beg for our support, instead he expects it handed to him.

Dinobot:
I've heard almost the same line of reasoning, but with a twist, from my crazy uncle, who is a sbc pastor,... attack iran to trigger the 2nd coming of jesus

stoli n coke: Actually, the fundies believe God's also going to destroy the Jews because they deny the divinity of Christ.

The fundies don't actually care about the people of Israel. They just want to make sure the Jeebus Runway is left intact.

So between the two of those I can only assume turning Iran into a glass parking lot allows for SuperJebus to have his landing runway?

"...with *regards* to Iran's nuclear program?" He sends his compliments?

/Grammar Nazi meme probably not appropriate in this context

Silly Jesus: Daveism: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

I meant more in the sense that it could serve as a base of operations for our military and that it's the one place in that region that isn't part of the anti-American nonsense that boils over with increasing frequency.

The Anti-American nonsense wouldn't boil over so easily or so often if the US wasn't so heavily and openly involved with Isreal.

The entire region hates Isreal, and not entirely without good reason. Backing them so heavily is like being best friends with a guy that everyone else at your school hates. In terms of diplomacy with other parts of the Mid-East, Isreal is a nothing but a burden. As for military bases, the US is on good terms enough with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait for that not to be a huge issue. Not to mention they're now propping up the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I mean, things I mentioned in my last post aside, it also might come down to how other NATO countries would react if the US distanced itself further from Isreal?

I dunno. It'd just be nice, for once, to see a world leader come out swinging about Isreal's incessant warmongering and the seriously shiatty way they treat the Palestinian territories.

stoli n coke: Vodka Zombie: SilentStrider: I really wish someone would tell that guy to stfu and gbtw.

Apparently, his job is to go around begging other nations to start wars on Israel's behalf. But, the shutting the fark up part would be nice for a freakin' change.

Isreal, the geopolitical equivalent of the drunken frat boy who grabs every chick's ass at the bar, then expects his friends to jump in when one of their boyfriends wants to kick his ass.

Ha! Well put.

SpectroBoy: Tarl3k: A 2 state solution, perhaps?

We had that until ONE of the states (not naming any names) started to illegally confiscate land from ANOTHER state (again, not naming any names)refused to accept when the other state acceded to all their demands

/when you won't take yes for an answer, life can get complicated

So, Iran is on Double Secret Probation or some shiat?

Killling bin Laden gives Obama an unquestioning advantage on Mid East issues over Romney. Netanyahu doesn't understand this. His "Obama is weak on Mid-east security issues" would carry more weight if Obama didn't get bin Laden.

Aren't alliances supposed to be mutually beneficial?

Because People in power are Stupid: Because Mormons and Jews get along so well together.

FWIW, Romney and Benji are investment BFFs from Boston in the 70s. Being filthy stinking rich trumps religion for them.

lilplatinum: This cocksucker should be crawling on his hands and knees to kiss our feet and beg for our support, instead he expects it handed to him.

That's actually kind of what is happening now, it's just wrapped up in diplomat speak.

I say put Israel joining the NPT on the table and then see how badly he wants his war.

HMS_Blinkin: Gwyrddu: He's got to know that Obama is very likely to win with or without his statements. Does he think Obama will be any more well disposed to work with Israel after pulling this sort of shiat?

That's the part I don't understand. He's just asking for more unfavorable treatment in the next Obama administration than he would have gotten without his interference. And if he doesn't interfere and Romney wins, it's not like the GOP chickenhawks will suddenly dislike the idea of fighting stupid wars in the Middle East. Netanyahu's best play here was to do nothing and hope for a Romney win, but don't piss off Obama, the guy who will most likely win.

Maybe, just maybe, Netanyahu really doesn't care about our election. Maybe he feels Iran is truly a threat?

Meh probably not. I would laugh off some president from another country calling for my country's obliteration.

: /

Iran is a threat to its neighbors and to overall world stability.

Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

Maybe, just maybe, Netanyahu really doesn't care about our election. Maybe he feels Iran is truly a threat?

Well you see, that's his problem, not our problem. If he wants to attack Iran, he's on his own.

Overfiend: Iran is a threat to its neighbors and to overall world stability.

How?

Frontspac: Silly Jesus: Daveism: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

I meant more in the sense that it could serve as a base of operations for our military and that it's the one place in that region that isn't part of the anti-American nonsense that boils over with increasing frequency.

The Anti-American nonsense wouldn't boil over so easily or so often if the US wasn't so heavily and openly involved with Isreal.

The entire region hates Isreal, and not entirely without good reason. Backing them so heavily is like being best friends with a guy that everyone else at your school hates. In terms of diplomacy with other parts of the Mid-East, Isreal is a nothing but a burden. As for military bases, the US is on good terms enough with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait for that not to be a huge issue. Not to mention they're now propping up the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I mean, things I mentioned in my last post aside, it also might come down to how other NATO countries would react if the US distanced itself further from Isreal?

I dunno. It'd just be nice, for once, to see a world leader come out swinging about Isreal's incessant warmongering and the seriously shiatty way they treat the Palestinian territories.

Fair enough. Good points.

HotWingConspiracy: Overfiend: Iran is a threat to its neighbors and to overall world stability.

How?

Well if it didn't exist Israel wouldn't keep trying to attack it.

digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

HMS_Blinkin: Gwyrddu: He's got to know that Obama is very likely to win with or without his statements. Does he think Obama will be any more well disposed to work with Israel after pulling this sort of shiat?

That's the part I don't understand. He's just asking for more unfavorable treatment in the next Obama administration than he would have gotten without his interference. And if he doesn't interfere and Romney wins, it's not like the GOP chickenhawks will suddenly dislike the idea of fighting stupid wars in the Middle East. Netanyahu's best play here was to do nothing and hope for a Romney win, but don't piss off Obama, the guy who will most likely win.

I think ol' Ben severely overestimates Israel's sway in the US. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

Anyone who thinks that the moment we stop supporting Israel we're gonna be at peace is fooling themselves. The region is far too strategically important and Muslims have far longer memmories than Americans. Do you really expect societies where taking revenge is a virtue to either forgive or forget?

GAT_00: Ah, see, here's the proof that he's gotten on Romney's press team: he blames everyone but himself for his own actions. Clearly Republican.

Yeah, but he's always done that. It's one of the things that makes him such a perfect neocon.

Frontspac: Put me down as another person who's been consistently baffled as to why Isreal gets such a free pass in politics and the media. Everyone is just dead afraid of coming right out and calling them on their (massive quantities of) bullshiat.

I mean, what is it they have exactly that all the western countries need so bad? Are they an important port city?

Or are a lot of people still really attatched to the idea that Isreal and Judaism are intertwined to the point where not supporting Isreal is Anti-Semitism?

Or do the Zionists just have enough money to buy off every Western government and make sure no one in the media on multiple continents takes to critical a look?

i think we will see this start to shift some, but not by much, for a long time.

i think it initially was guilt from the holocaust which the entire West felt, and we collectively wanted to make sure the israelis didnt suffer a similar fate at the hands of the arabs.

the last generation or so, the interests of Israel and the US have diverged, and its no longer clear to me, as you say, why we are so interested in sticking our necks out for them when it hurts us very literally for what is to me a rather unquantifiable gain. We should support israel, its a democracy, decent institutions, etc... a regime worthy of Western Support in many ways.

Then again, S. Africa was the same way under apartheid, and the West denied a lot of support to the Afrikaans S. African regime despite its western posture because of its policies against the blacks.

Why the same thing cant be applied to the israelis i think is a testament to how well they know us and are embedded in our political system like a great Lobbyist. I do not think "the jews control the US" or any of that other antisemtic conspiracy crap, but i think aside fromt eh UK youd be hard pressed to find a foreign govt which is so well in tune with how washington works and embeds its dignitaries into our govt.

Couple that with the hard right's wet dream of israel and rapture scripture crap, and then the ignorance and hate many Americans have for the arabs and its not really a surprise theyre so successful lobbying us.

digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

Short answer at the moment: we are. Sec State Clinton has laid down the law and we're actually (very quietly) withholding aid. Current policy with Israel is that if they pick a fight with Iran or anyone, we will not back them up.

It makes me very happy

Overfiend: Maybe, just maybe, Netanyahu really doesn't care about our election. Maybe he feels Iran is truly a threat?

Perhaps he should share that which leads him to believe Iran is about to complete a working nuclear warhead. It's pretty obvious the US military doesn't share his belief.

digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

The fact that Iran's nuclear facilities are a thousand miles from Israel and Israel doesn't have the bomb technology to take them out. All Israel dropping a few bombs on Iran would do is inflame an already paranoid Iran. It would not accomplish anything like Bibi's stated goal of stopping their nuclear program and would probably end up undoing all the progress the west has made in calming things in the ME.

IOW, it would create a farking mess, which is why the President told him "No" in no uncertain terms.

Here'sJohnny: Anyone who thinks that the moment we stop supporting Israel we're gonna be at peace is fooling themselves. The region is far too strategically important and Muslims have far longer memmories than Americans. Do you really expect societies where taking revenge is a virtue to either forgive or forget?

Oh hardly. The politics involved in dealing with the Middle East, Isreal included, are way to complex for any sane informed person to say "fark Isreal lets just bail on that scene, man." Isreal has been a country for more than half a century, and has millions of citizens. At this point, it has as much right to be there as any other country (all of them exist on land that use to be someone else's at this point), and there's lots of legit reasons not to let them get steamrolled by Syria/Egypt/Iran/etc...

On the flip-side, though, there's no excuse for the NATO countries in letting Isreal run wild as it has. I, like I think most people, just want to see the big boys step up and reign them in. No more colonies in the West Bank and Gaza, no more war-mongering, and get serious about not treating the Palestinians like second class-citizens and fixing the goddamn problem properly and without mass-murder or genocide.

Honestly, it sucks that the US/NATO is so heavily involved in the goings on of all these other countries, but it's already happened and it's way too late to go back to any kind of isolationism.

Silly Jesus: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

So we should fight wars for our allies, when they are capable themselves? As of this past week, Ben has said Israel has the capability to take out all Iranian nuclear sites. So why demand the US do it instead?

I_Love_Cheesecake: Famous Thamas: There are nice people in Israel, and it is a nation worth supporting, but f Netanyahoo.

Ah yes, nice country, that Israel:

Most racist country in the West.

yeah they don't marry outside of their race-religion. that tends to make them more insular.
their race and religion are almost the same thing as a result.
Hell it's hard to get them to hire someone outside their race.
Just look at Wall st,Hollywood and the giant media companies to see that at work.

Dwight_Yeast: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

Short answer at the moment: we are. Sec State Clinton has laid down the law and we're actually (very quietly) withholding aid. Current policy with Israel is that if they pick a fight with Iran or anyone, we will not back them up.

It makes me very happy

me too! go Hil!

no wonder Netanyahoo (sp?) tried to put pressure on Barack; if he can help get mittens in there, who he thinks he has a better chance of convincing to back a war, it would help him with his own push for war.

The Obama administration appears to have come to the same conclusion the Israeli Center has: there's no reason to go to war now. The Hawks like Netenyahoo are like Israel's version of RUmsfeld and WOlfowitz prior to the Iraqi invasion. Theyre saying Saddam can only be overthrown by force and he's a threat to the world NOW when in reality there are plenty of options left on the table. Like they can keep putting in virii into their computers and assassinating their scientists, for example.

digistil: Silly Jesus: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

So we should fight wars for our allies, when they are capable themselves? As of this past week, Ben has said Israel has the capability to take out all Iranian nuclear sites. So why demand the US do it instead?

it costs money.

Father_Jack: no wonder Netanyahoo (sp?) tried to put pressure on Barack; if he can help get mittens in there, who he thinks he has a better chance of convincing to back a war, it would help him with his own push for war.

The only piece of foreign policy Mitt has made clear is that Israel would get a blank check from us. It's why the Israel lobby is supporting him this time around.

StoneColdAtheist: The fact that Iran's nuclear facilities are a thousand miles from Israel and Israel doesn't have the bomb technology to take them out.

Except for the fact that you're wrong: Link

Father_Jack: Dwight_Yeast: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

Short answer at the moment: we are. Sec State Clinton has laid down the law and we're actually (very quietly) withholding aid. Current policy with Israel is that if they pick a fight with Iran or anyone, we will not back them up.

It makes me very happy

me too! go Hil!

no wonder Netanyahoo (sp?) tried to put pressure on Barack; if he can help get mittens in there, who he thinks he has a better chance of convincing to back a war, it would help him with his own push for war.

The Obama administration appears to have come to the same conclusion the Israeli Center has: there's no reason to go to war now. The Hawks like Netenyahoo are like Israel's version of RUmsfeld and WOlfowitz prior to the Iraqi invasion. Theyre saying Saddam can only be overthrown by force and he's a threat to the world NOW when in reality there are plenty of options left on the table. Like they can keep putting in virii into their computers and assassinating their scientists, for example.

Where'd you read that about Clinton halting aid to Isreal? Sounds like something that'd have made for a bigger story, especially with Rmoney so desperate for straws to grasp.

That said, as good as it sounds, you have to wonder if the US really has the option of staying out of an Isreal/Iran conflict. I mean, it'd massively de-stabilize the entire region, and who knows who might join in on Iran's side (if they thought the US was staying out). As awful as it'd be, staying out of a war like that could be more trouble long-term than ensuring Isreal wins.

Assuming, of course, no one could slap together a peace-keeping force and head that shiat off at the pass. I might be being optimistic on NATO or the UNs ability to roll something that politically precarious, much less fast enough to make a difference.

keylock71: If Yahoo has such a hard-on for Iran, Israel is free to wage war against them and deal with the ramifications themselves.

we're done here. Just lock the door behind you.

digistil: Silly Jesus: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

So we should fight wars for our allies, when they are capable themselves? As of this past week, Ben has said Israel has the capability to take out all Iranian nuclear sites. So why demand the US do it instead?

I never said that we SHOULD do it, I was simply pointing out a big reason why Israel would want the U.S. to lead the way. Israel says that they can do it themselves, but that doesn't seem very realistic. Especially when you factor in the other Middle East countries that would surely retaliate. They are a tiny country and surrounded by sworn enemies. Having a huge "friend" like the U.S. to run things would certainly make me sleep easier if I were there.

Again, not advocating for this approach. I understand it though...

While I'd have to say dropping a JDAM on Likud HQ is overkill, damn if that wouldn't be satisfying.

/hey we're bibi we're bombing something in the middle east, we just picked the target

digistil: StoneColdAtheist: The fact that Iran's nuclear facilities are a thousand miles from Israel and Israel doesn't have the bomb technology to take them out.

Except for the fact that you're wrong: Link

If memory serves Isreal has a modern army and a superb Airforce. It's been a while since the US beefed it up (I remember recently reading about Isreal wanting another upgrade), but it's still modern, well funded, and crewed by well trained pilots. Unless Isreal's nuke sites are super-well hardened I wouldn't put it outside Isreal's capabilities. If I remember history class correctly, they did pretty much the same thing to Saddam's weapons plants in the '80s (though that may have been with US support).

Which raises another question: Why is Isreal so gung-ho for a war when they have the assets to strike at Iran's weapons program without going full retard? Between their Airforce and elite special forces and intelligence operatives, you think they'd have the means to just zip this thing up without tearing all of Asia Minor wide open.

Maybe this is their plan B if the US doesn't want to go play regime-change again.

Frontspac: Where'd you read that about Clinton halting aid to Isreal? Sounds like something that'd have made for a bigger story, especially with Rmoney so desperate for straws to grasp.

I can't seem to find a reference, but we started delaying certain payments to try to push the Israelis into talking to the Palestinians over the encroachment of settlements into Palestinian areas. Someone did call the White House on it and they said the payments were delayed but not suspended, which caused the story to die.

xanadian: Father_Jack: They're saying Saddam can only be overthrown by force and he's a threat to the world NOW when in reality there are plenty of options left on the table

Because "liberating" Iraq has worked so well for us. If Romney wins the election based even on a significant amount of his stance on Israel and Iran, it will just go to show that the average American electorate has the memory of a goldfish.

but we do. Just look at how quickly we got fed up with obama and voted in all these teaparty asshole mouth breathers. "hey obama didnt fart rainbows, lets vote in the same party that farked the country in the ass in the frist place!" like in wisconsin where they voted in an asshole hard right gov, and were then all SHOCKED, i tell you, SHOCKED, when he went after unions and worker rights. Why does this shiat surprise anyone? Thats what republicans do. "oh this democrat hasnt quite reached my unrealisticially high expectations, lets shoot ourselves in the face and then get mad when we blow our own heads off".

Silly Jesus: digistil: Silly Jesus: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

So we should fight wars for our allies, when they are capable themselves? As of this past week, Ben has said Israel has the capability to take out all Iranian nuclear sites. So why demand the US do it instead?

I never said that we SHOULD do it, I was simply pointing out a big reason why Israel would want the U.S. to lead the way. Israel says that they can do it themselves, but that doesn't seem very realistic. Especially when you factor in the other Middle East countries that would surely retaliate. They are a tiny country and surrounded by sworn enemies. Having a huge "friend" like the U.S. to run things would certainly make me sleep easier if I were there.

Again, not advocating for this approach. I understand it though...

Just want to clarify, do you think if America attacks or publicly pledges to support the attacks that:

1) Less countries will consider the attack a breach of international law and declare war in response.
2) That the same number of countries will declare war, and it's more managable for the US to have to face several Middle Eastern nations at once in response than Israel would.

Frontspac: Which raises another question: Why is Isreal so gung-ho for a war when they have the assets to strike at Iran's weapons program without going full retard?

I don't have a full answer for that, but a big part of it is that the entire face of the Middle East has altered totally in the last couple of years, and it looks like keeping up the Israel/Arab stalemate might not continue, which would put the hard-liners like Bibi and the Orthodox Jews out of power in Israel, and no one likes to lose power.

Starting a war with Iran would bring a reign of shiat down on their head similar to our mess in Iraq, but there's little chance at the moment of Egypt or Syria coming to Iran's aid, as they would have in the past.

Dwight_Yeast: Frontspac: Which raises another question: Why is Isreal so gung-ho for a war when they have the assets to strike at Iran's weapons program without going full retard?

I don't have a full answer for that, but a big part of it is that the entire face of the Middle East has altered totally in the last couple of years, and it looks like keeping up the Israel/Arab stalemate might not continue, which would put the hard-liners like Bibi and the Orthodox Jews out of power in Israel, and no one likes to lose power.

Starting a war with Iran would bring a reign of shiat down on their head similar to our mess in Iraq, but there's little chance at the moment of Egypt or Syria coming to Iran's aid, as they would have in the past.

if they went it alone the rest of the world would hate Israel for jacking up gas prices to astronomical rates. because Iran would retaliate. they'd have no choice. and it would escalate quickly.

Oh, and I should add to this mess that we've short-sheeted Bibi by really bringing sanctions down hard on Iran, which would make ANY attack on Iran look worse, as the international community is currently trying diplomatic solutions.

It's not in our best interest for Iran to have nukes, but it is in our best interest at the moment to maintain positive relations with all the Arab nations, and not do anything aggressive to antagonize the fundamentalist regime in Iran, as every time we do, it feeds their power.

Dwight_Yeast: Frontspac: Which raises another question: Why is Isreal so gung-ho for a war when they have the assets to strike at Iran's weapons program without going full retard?

I don't have a full answer for that, but a big part of it is that the entire face of the Middle East has altered totally in the last couple of years, and it looks like keeping up the Israel/Arab stalemate might not continue, which would put the hard-liners like Bibi and the Orthodox Jews out of power in Israel, and no one likes to lose power.

Starting a war with Iran would bring a reign of shiat down on their head similar to our mess in Iraq, but there's little chance at the moment of Egypt or Syria coming to Iran's aid, as they would have in the past.

Syria's way to busy dealing with their own shiat, yeah. But though Egypt may not fully have the means, having the Muslim Bros in power might give them the incentive.

There's so many unknown quantities at work here, it's hard to know exactly how such a thing would play out.

You might be right though, about the hard-liners. Though my personal theory is that a full invasion would put another US-backed regime in place of one of the region's power-brokers, which might give Isreal some advantages that they perceive as worth a full-scale war. Again, lets see if they don't find a more precise way to deal with the problem when Obama gets re-elected in November and says "fark that noise" to a full scale invasion of Iran.

But I'm no expert on Iran/Mid East geo-politics. My pet maybe-war is North Korea.

Hobodeluxe: if they went it alone the rest of the world would hate Israel for jacking up gas prices to astronomical rates.

Well, France and the UK especially, as they (IIRC) buy the bulk of the oil Iran is allowed to sell at the moment.

Watching the Obama/Clinton/Biden foreign policy team work is a thing of beauty, especially to someone like me who grew up in the 80s and 90s watching it be done badly.

Dwight_Yeast: Oh, and I should add to this mess that we've short-sheeted Bibi by really bringing sanctions down hard on Iran, which would make ANY attack on Iran look worse, as the international community is currently trying diplomatic solutions.

It's not in our best interest for Iran to have nukes, but it is in our best interest at the moment to maintain positive relations with all the Arab nations, and not do anything aggressive to antagonize the fundamentalist regime in Iran, as every time we do, it feeds their power.

Seems about right to me.

Do you think Iran is willing to give up nukes under pressure from sanctions? I honestly don't know how bad they want them, or if they're legitimately afraid of Isreal or if it's more of an internal politics thing about standing up to the big boys on the global stage for the benefit of the folks at home.

Frontspac: Dwight_Yeast: Oh, and I should add to this mess that we've short-sheeted Bibi by really bringing sanctions down hard on Iran, which would make ANY attack on Iran look worse, as the international community is currently trying diplomatic solutions.

It's not in our best interest for Iran to have nukes, but it is in our best interest at the moment to maintain positive relations with all the Arab nations, and not do anything aggressive to antagonize the fundamentalist regime in Iran, as every time we do, it feeds their power.

Seems about right to me.

Do you think Iran is willing to give up nukes under pressure from sanctions? I honestly don't know how bad they want them, or if they're legitimately afraid of Isreal or if it's more of an internal politics thing about standing up to the big boys on the global stage for the benefit of the folks at home.

they want nukes to keep from getting their asses invaded like the iraqis did.

Frontspac: But though Egypt may not fully have the means, having the Muslim Bros in power might give them the incentive.

No, that's the fun thing: the Egyptian people are still pissed at the military for retaining too much power. Getting them into a shooting war would probably cause another popular uprising and push the military leaders completely out of power.

Frontspac: But I'm no expert on Iran/Mid East geo-politics. My pet maybe-war is North Korea.

There's more chance of it happening now that any time in the last 30 years, but we've dumped NK squarely in the Chinese's lap, as it's their sphere of influence.

I'm expecting NK to go the way of East Germany, where all the leaders simply disappeared one night and then announced they'd issue vias to anyone who wanted them. What worried me is the humanitarian crisis as millions of starving North Koreans suddenly pour into the south.

Seriously, of all recent PMs of Israel, Netanyahu has to be the biggest douche, next to A. Sharon.

Likud party looks like todays' GOP: Crazies in control.

digistil: StoneColdAtheist: The fact that Iran's nuclear facilities are a thousand miles from Israel and Israel doesn't have the bomb technology to take them out.

Except for the fact that you're wrong: Link

You have to read shiat like TFA with a little more skepticism. Something like this:

- "as Israel successfully tests a missile" TRANSLATION: it didn't blow up on the launch pad this time

- "believed capable of carrying a nuclear warhead to Iran" TRANSLATION: it sells more papers when rampant speculation inflates performance...and you don't have to buy a copy of Photoshop

- "It remained unclear whether Israel was genuinely poised to strike" TRANSLATION: slow news day sabre rattling

- "Israeli leaders have said they favor a diplomatic solution" TRANSLATION: we know Obama already said "No", but Iran hasn't read the morning papers yet

- "We are keeping all the options on the table" TRANSLATION: has ANY country...EVAR...taken an option off the table?

Grungehamster: Silly Jesus: digistil: Silly Jesus: digistil: Honest question: WTF is stopping Israel from bombing Iran? Why does Israel demand the US be the one with blood on their hands?

I think that our military might be a tad bit larger and better equipped.

So we should fight wars for our allies, when they are capable themselves? As of this past week, Ben has said Israel has the capability to take out all Iranian nuclear sites. So why demand the US do it instead?

I never said that we SHOULD do it, I was simply pointing out a big reason why Israel would want the U.S. to lead the way. Israel says that they can do it themselves, but that doesn't seem very realistic. Especially when you factor in the other Middle East countries that would surely retaliate. They are a tiny country and surrounded by sworn enemies. Having a huge "friend" like the U.S. to run things would certainly make me sleep easier if I were there.

Again, not advocating for this approach. I understand it though...

Just want to clarify, do you think if America attacks or publicly pledges to support the attacks that:

1) Less countries will consider the attack a breach of international law and declare war in response.
2) That the same number of countries will declare war, and it's more managable for the US to have to face several Middle Eastern nations at once in response than Israel would.

2

Netanyahu is like Romney when it comes to war: will protest in favor of a war but will want others to fight while they watch the bloody festivities from a safe and secure location.

Trying to come up with the Israeli equivalent of "going to France to perform Mormon missionary work" but I am coming up empty.

Frontspac: Do you think Iran is willing to give up nukes under pressure from sanctions? I honestly don't know how bad they want them, or if they're legitimately afraid of Isreal or if it's more of an internal politics thing about standing up to the big boys on the global stage for the benefit of the folks at home.

I think it's a combination of all of it. Remember that Iran was (before 1979) the most industrialized, secular country in the region. If we hadn't farked the pooch there so many times, those people should be some of our greatest allies in the region, and most of them wan their current government gone. But there's just not the political will to make it happen yet (one suggestion is that no one who lived through Iran/Iraq wants to see a revolution there).

Their leaders govern by fear:fear of us, fear of the Israelis and fear of nukes. At the same time, the people see themselves as civilized first-worlders and see no reason they shouldn't have nukes.

Thinking about this now, I'm seeing a huge amount of Cold War mindset on both sides, and I think the leaders who hold power through fear are seeing their world fall down around them, and they want to hold power as long as they can.

a country that maintains 'nuclear ambiguity' appealing to the only country to have used a nuke to be the arbitrator of who else can have nukes.

if the subject wasn't 'really big booms', it would be a bad comedy sketch.

Rann Xerox: Trying to come up with the Israeli equivalent of "going to France to perform Mormon missionary work" but I am coming up empty.

Try, "going to Skokie to raise money to plant trees in Israel".

/I always donated

Rann Xerox: Trying to come up with the Israeli equivalent of "going to France to perform Mormon missionary work" but I am coming up empty.

Being an Orthodox Jew. If you're Orthodox, you're supposed to devote all your time to "study" so you're exempt from the compulsorily military service.

This is a very big issue in Israel right now, as the right wingers are the war mongers and their kids don't have to fight if there's a conflict.

Frontspac: Do you think Iran is willing to give up nukes under pressure from sanctions?

Not a chance. A nuclear Iran is untouchable in the conventional war sense, mutually assured destruction being a fairly effective deterrent. Israel knows this would forever alter the balance of power in the region, and sees this as their one final shot to remain the top power in the Middle East. I see it as somewhat akin to the situation between Pakistan and India, where India (being nuclear itself) kept taking potshots at Pakistan until they developed the bomb themselves.

Dwight_Yeast: Rann Xerox: Trying to come up with the Israeli equivalent of "going to France to perform Mormon missionary work" but I am coming up empty.

Being an Orthodox Jew. If you're Orthodox, you're supposed to devote all your time to "study" so you're exempt from the compulsorily military service.

This is a very big issue in Israel right now, as the right wingers are the war mongers and their kids don't have to fight if there's a conflict.

My example is easier, but yours is more on-point.

/tips hat

StoneColdAtheist: This is a very big issue in Israel right now, as the right wingers are the war mongers and their kids don't have to fight if there's a conflict.

My example is easier, but yours is more on-point.

It was just so perfect, and it has been in the news quite a bit recently, internationally. (BBC and Guardian)

Chickenhawks will be chickenhawks.

Not to sound all Godwin-y, but it's been HOW many years since the Holocaust? I think Israel is fully capable of fighting it's own battles now.

Besides, we certainly don't don't want Israel to confuse one of our naval ships in the area to be an enemy vessel and bomb the sh*t out of it......... again. You'd think they'd be thanking us for steering clear of the area.



6/9/67 Never forget (even though Israel very much wants you to forget)

Daveism: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

What he said. Israel treats the US like crap. There is a reason why Israel is so disliked in the world - they are a-holes.

Wouldn't it be easier to just move all the folks in Israel to North Dakota then turn that god damn piece of desert into a glass parking lot? Sure, there would be some political fallout for a few decades, but getting rid of Jerusalem altogether would be a start to getting rid of this biblical nonsense.

Not hating on the jewish population in general, but that said, the leadership they elect are a bunch of dicks.

Father_Jack: xanadian: Father_Jack: They're saying Saddam can only be overthrown by force and he's a threat to the world NOW when in reality there are plenty of options left on the table

Because "liberating" Iraq has worked so well for us. If Romney wins the election based even on a significant amount of his stance on Israel and Iran, it will just go to show that the average American electorate has the memory of a goldfish.

but we do. Just look at how quickly we got fed up with obama and voted in all these teaparty asshole mouth breathers. "hey obama didnt fart rainbows, lets vote in the same party that farked the country in the ass in the frist place!" like in wisconsin where they voted in an asshole hard right gov, and were then all SHOCKED, i tell you, SHOCKED, when he went after unions and worker rights. Why does this shiat surprise anyone? Thats what republicans do. "oh this democrat hasnt quite reached my unrealisticially high expectations, lets shoot ourselves in the face and then get mad when we blow our own heads off".

/Freud nods approvingly.

So much for anti-semitic "canards".

God must have chosen them, tobe the world's shiat disturbers.

Satanic_Hamster: Frontspac: Which raises another question: Why is Isreal so gung-ho for a war when they have the assets to strike at Iran's weapons program without going full retard? Between their Airforce and elite special forces and intelligence operatives, you think they'd have the means to just zip this thing up without tearing all of Asia Minor wide open.

They don't have the capability. Iran is too far, there's too many countries in the way, their program is too decentralized and too buried.

Iran, Iran so far away...

mrshowrules: You take all the Jews to North Dakota and we (Canadians) will take all the moderate Muslims to Saskatchewan. Nuke the rest. Problem solved.

I've always said that trying to create Zion in the Holy Land was a mistake, and that we should have offered the Jews half of Utah after WWII.

/would have balanced the Mormons out
//and started all sorts of new problems.

Johnny Swank: Wouldn't it be easier to just move all the folks in Israel to North Dakota then turn that god damn piece of desert into a glass parking lot? Sure, there would be some political fallout for a few decades, but getting rid of Jerusalem altogether would be a start to getting rid of this biblical nonsense.

Not hating on the jewish population in general, but that said, the leadership they elect are a bunch of dicks.

I can't figure out why they keep electing Likud. Nobody seems to like them, even in Israel.

mrshowrules: Johnny Swank: Wouldn't it be easier to just move all the folks in Israel to North Dakota then turn that god damn piece of desert into a glass parking lot? Sure, there would be some political fallout for a few decades, but getting rid of Jerusalem altogether would be a start to getting rid of this biblical nonsense.

Not hating on the jewish population in general, but that said, the leadership they elect are a bunch of dicks.

You take all the Jews to North Dakota and we (Canadians) will take all the moderate Muslims to Saskatchewan. Nuke the rest. Problem solved.

North Dakota's the only state in the country that isn't farked up. Give them Florida.

i wish he would jump into the campaign as a candidate.

i'm sure we could find a birth cert for him somewhere.

The Jami Turman Fan Club: mrshowrules: Johnny Swank: Wouldn't it be easier to just move all the folks in Israel to North Dakota then turn that god damn piece of desert into a glass parking lot? Sure, there would be some political fallout for a few decades, but getting rid of Jerusalem altogether would be a start to getting rid of this biblical nonsense.

Not hating on the jewish population in general, but that said, the leadership they elect are a bunch of dicks.

You take all the Jews to North Dakota and we (Canadians) will take all the moderate Muslims to Saskatchewan. Nuke the rest. Problem solved.

North Dakota's the only state in the country that isn't farked up. Give them Florida.

Too late!

Dwight_Yeast: I've always said that trying to create Zion in the Holy Land was a mistake, and that we should have offered the Jews half of Utah after WWII.

/would have balanced the Mormons out
//and started all sorts of new problems.


It would be much more entertaining watching the Jews and Mormons have a constant war of passive aggression. It would certainly be preferable to what we have now.

Silly Jesus: Daveism: Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

An ally? They're like a little brother that starts fights that you have to constantly rescue them from- they're the little bullies in the neighborhood. And, yes, I DO realize they're not the only ones. But Israel is FAR from an ally.

I meant more in the sense that it could serve as a base of operations for our military and that it's the one place in that region that isn't part of the anti-American nonsense that boils over with increasing frequency.

Turkey is a far more effective base of operations. They also don't destroy our regional credibility by pulling idiotic shenanigans and attempt to intentionally control our elections.

Bender The Offender: Turkey is a far more effective base of operations. They also don't destroy our regional credibility by pulling idiotic shenanigans and attempt to intentionally control our elections.

And they have top-notch coffee and cigarettes.

Israel has problems. I understand that. Some of those problems are intractable, and not entirely their own fault. I get that too.

I'm still not sold on the notion that those problems are necessarily MY problems.

See, I have a bunch of other problems that are actually, genuinely my problems. Not someone else's. And right now, I don't need more of those. I need fewer.

That's my position. Go ahead, tell me why I'm wrong.

Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

Because they send a lot of campaign contrbutions to congress

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Bender The Offender: Turkey is a far more effective base of operations. They also don't destroy our regional credibility by pulling idiotic shenanigans and attempt to intentionally control our elections.

And they have top-notch coffee and cigarettes.

And they have dancing bears! I saw them when we visited in 1980.

Grungehamster: So, we've been hearing for forever that Iran is 2 years away from being able to make a nuclear weapon. In fact, that very same statement was made 2 months ago about Iran's nuclear capabilities. Now Netanyahu is saying that Iran is mere months away from having nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, there hasn't been any significant new coming out of Iran beyond them literally banning the use of the word "dollar" to try to prevent discussion about how sanctions have completely destroyed the exchange rate of the rial.

What happened since July that has moved production into lightspeed like he is claiming? Or has anyone bothered to ask how many months away they are? 24 maybe?

Our press is pathetic, they're too busy kissing his ass and crowning him 'king of the jews' to ask any of the illuminating questions you highlight.

Dwight_Yeast: Rann Xerox: Trying to come up with the Israeli equivalent of "going to France to perform Mormon missionary work" but I am coming up empty.

Being an Orthodox Jew. If you're Orthodox, you're supposed to devote all your time to "study" so you're exempt from the compulsorily military service.

This is a very big issue in Israel right now, as the right wingers are the war mongers and their kids don't have to fight if there's a conflict.

Really? Didn't know that. Verrrrry interesting.

I have to say, Nut-N-Yahoo^TM is the world's worst breakfast cereal.

mrshowrules: Someone else's problems can become your problems.

That's what I keep hearing. Year after year, decade after decade.

But usually, I hear it from the people who are trying to make it my problem.

Snarfangel: The Jami Turman Fan Club: mrshowrules: Johnny Swank: Wouldn't it be easier to just move all the folks in Israel to North Dakota then turn that god damn piece of desert into a glass parking lot? Sure, there would be some political fallout for a few decades, but getting rid of Jerusalem altogether would be a start to getting rid of this biblical nonsense.

Not hating on the jewish population in general, but that said, the leadership they elect are a bunch of dicks.

You take all the Jews to North Dakota and we (Canadians) will take all the moderate Muslims to Saskatchewan. Nuke the rest. Problem solved.

North Dakota's the only state in the country that isn't farked up. Give them Florida.

Too late!

Yup. They already own the Gold Coast (imagine that). I don't think they'll get along too well with the rednecks in the Panhandle, though.

mrshowrules: Mr_Fabulous: Israel has problems. I understand that. Some of those problems are intractable, and not entirely their own fault. I get that too.

I'm still not sold on the notion that those problems are necessarily MY problems.

See, I have a bunch of other problems that are actually, genuinely my problems. Not someone else's. And right now, I don't need more of those. I need fewer.

That's my position. Go ahead, tell me why I'm wrong.

Someone else's problems can become your problems. No easy answers but seeing as this is the politics thread I will just add that I feel better with Obama dealing with it then Romney.

Exactly, but it doesn't make the point strongly enough, so let's put some meat on them bones.

Forty years ago the last regional Arab-Israeli war saw the Arabs collectively lose 19,000 soldiers, plus thousands more civilian casualties and billions upon billions of dollars in destruction. Moreover, it sparked the second oil embargo that cost billions more in economic damages around the world and triggered a massive US recession.

In short, it became our problem in many painful ways. The $6 billion or so we spend each year to avoid this decadal carnage has been a real bargain, especially when one considers that it's really the Saudis who are footing the bill (with their $20b to $66b in annual purchases of American military hardware.)

Good luck removing this cancer from American politics, their agents infest every part of Media and Banking.

They have their bagmen on K Street to deliver the bribes and their Legbreakers in media to smack down anybody who dares put America before the precious little thieving Israel.

We need to offshore Zionism.

Because People in power are Stupid: Because Mormons and Jews get along so well together.

Apparently Netanyahu and Mittens are good friends IRL. Israel was like the one stop on his international tour where Mittens didn't chap everyone's ass (save for Netanyahu calling Mittens a representative of the US; that chapped my ass).

Insatiable Jesus: Good luck removing this cancer from American politics, their agents infest every part of Media and Banking.

They have their bagmen on K Street to deliver the bribes and their Legbreakers in media to smack down anybody who dares put America before the precious little thieving Israel.

We need to offshore Zionism.

I'm no fan of Israeli hyper nationalism or AIPAC but when I see posts like this I view it as coded Jew hate.

Complain about AIPACs influence on US politics, but don't complain about all the Jews in the media; it's not all a conspiracy even if the Jews in the media may or may not be sympathetic to Israel.

Example of a Jew in the media not too crazy about how Israel conducts itself, for example:


BTW "Zionism" is something white supremacists LOVE to piss and moan about.

Silly Jesus: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

There IS something to be said for having such an ally in that area of the world.

And they do exactly what for the US?

Netanyahu, go fark yourself.

Elfich: Dinobot:
I've heard almost the same line of reasoning, but with a twist, from my crazy uncle, who is a sbc pastor,... attack iran to trigger the 2nd coming of jesus

stoli n coke: Actually, the fundies believe God's also going to destroy the Jews because they deny the divinity of Christ.

The fundies don't actually care about the people of Israel. They just want to make sure the Jeebus Runway is left intact.

So between the two of those I can only assume turning Iran into a glass parking lot allows for SuperJebus to have his landing runway?

Nope. Read Revelations. First the Arabs have to be invading Israel. Then the jeezus people come to their rescue, whereupon the Israelis magically covert to jeezus people and jeezus comes to Jerusalem and rules the earth for 1,000 years. Why 1,000 years? I dunno but thats what the whackos believe

Crotchrocket Slim: Insatiable Jesus: Good luck removing this cancer from American politics, their agents infest every part of Media and Banking.

They have their bagmen on K Street to deliver the bribes and their Legbreakers in media to smack down anybody who dares put America before the precious little thieving Israel.

We need to offshore Zionism.

I'm no fan of Israeli hyper nationalism or AIPAC but when I see posts like this I view it as coded Jew hate.

Complain about AIPACs influence on US politics, but don't complain about all the Jews in the media; it's not all a conspiracy even if the Jews in the media may or may not be sympathetic to Israel.

Example of a Jew in the media not too crazy about how Israel conducts itself, for example:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 296x486]

BTW "Zionism" is something white supremacists LOVE to piss and moan about.


I see your Jon Stewart (Zionist) and raise you Wolf Blitzer, Moonvies, Judith Miller et al.

Plenty of Jews in America don't subscribe to the Israel First newsletter, but those who do are expert at pushing it and screaming anti-semite whenever something farks with the nest.

And here it comes 'round again, the Zionist is seen for what he is and cowers in a crowd of ordinary Jews, screaming "Anti-Semite!"

Fark these people.

Fark them into a hole.

Jacobin: Elfich: Dinobot:
I've heard almost the same line of reasoning, but with a twist, from my crazy uncle, who is a sbc pastor,... attack iran to trigger the 2nd coming of jesus

stoli n coke: Actually, the fundies believe God's also going to destroy the Jews because they deny the divinity of Christ.

The fundies don't actually care about the people of Israel. They just want to make sure the Jeebus Runway is left intact.

So between the two of those I can only assume turning Iran into a glass parking lot allows for SuperJebus to have his landing runway?

Nope. Read Revelations. First the Arabs have to be invading Israel. Then the jeezus people come to their rescue, whereupon the Israelis magically covert to jeezus people and jeezus comes to Jerusalem and rules the earth for 1,000 years. Why 1,000 years? I dunno but thats what the whackos believe

I wonder what will happen if we help Israel and then they dont wan't to convert to jeebus?

xanadian: Cythraul: Why do we have to unconditionally and eternally support Israel again?

Because it's nice to have a staunch ally in a region that generally detests us. The whole Christian-ized "holy land" thing is just a cover for a more realistic strategic approach.

And they detest us because....... Class?... Class?

From their point of view, we are supporting a European colony on some of the choicest real-estate in the region. Don't yell at me about it, that's the basic Arab opinion on the matter.  And they don't really buy the whole "God wants us to live here so you need to leave", argument.

Seriously, would you? If somebody showed up on your doorstep and told you God wanted them to live in your house, but if you want you can live in a tent in the backyard and do chores, how would react?

r1chard3: From their point of view, we are supporting a European colony on some of the choicest real-estate in the region.

Um, no. It's more like...

Would be nice to see Obama return the favour on Nov 7

Dear Israel we're not sending you any more money until you get rid of Bibi

oh and if you want us to keep helping you, get rid of the illegal settlements
you've got 6 months

then maybe we can discuss 'lasting peace'

HotWingConspiracy: Overfiend: Iran is a threat to its neighbors and to overall world stability.

How?

Their support for Hizbollah and their backing of Assad against his own people for starters.

And most countries don't make their stated national goal the destruction of one of their neighbors.

Iran has sponsored terrorism for decades.

These are just a few of the reasons they are a threat. Not to mention what they do to their own people (remember the "green" revolution?)

If you don't want to support Israel I can completely understand. But to think Iran is anything other then bad news is foolish thinking - at best.