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(Ars Technica)   "Dungeons & Dragons Next"...begun, the Nerd Wars have   (arstechnica.com) divider line 202
    More: Interesting, Dungeons & Dragons, classic games, Wizards of the Coast, Gary Gygax, cohesiveness, Mike Mearls, PAX  
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7227 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Sep 2012 at 2:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-16 09:25:10 PM
I agree with the author 4e sucks.

Attack the gazebo!!!
 
2012-09-16 09:41:59 PM
Our local group's been playing Next since it was released two months ago, subs.
 
2012-09-16 09:46:51 PM
Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.
 
2012-09-16 09:57:18 PM

doglover: Our local group's been playing Next since it was released two months ago, subs.


Did I say "begun, the Nerd Wars will"? I think not.

/still use 2nd edition
//I attack the darkness
 
2012-09-16 10:08:01 PM
To hear them tell it, this won't merely be another layer to cover over what has come before, but a flexible ruleset with variable complexity, perfectly capable of playing as a tactical miniatures game like 4e, or as an old school "talkie." Without a 1-inch grid ever being rolled out on the table, and without a single ounce of pewter cast in the image of an elf or a dwarf, D&D Next games can consist entirely of the interactions between the players and the DM, of dice and words alone.

Boy, I sure hope so. Though I'm not sure I'll end up getting back into it at this point.
 
2012-09-16 10:26:50 PM
www.starburstmagazine.com


War ? What does DnD know about war ?
 
2012-09-16 10:46:49 PM

NowhereMon: Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.


me too
 
2012-09-16 11:50:34 PM

dahmers love zombie: doglover: Our local group's been playing Next since it was released two months ago, subs.

Did I say "begun, the Nerd Wars will"? I think not.

/still use 2nd edition
//I attack the darkness


Next is basically a cleaned up version of 2.

A lot less data and tables, same basic idea.
 
2012-09-16 11:53:45 PM

One Bad Apple: [www.starburstmagazine.com image 510x336]


War ? What does DnD know about war ?


cf.geekdo-images.com

And a closer little detail:

cf.geekdo-images.com 

Game on.
 
2012-09-16 11:59:29 PM

dahmers love zombie: still use 2nd edition


I always liked AD&D with 2nd edition settings and background material.
 
2012-09-17 12:16:09 AM

Methadone Girls: NowhereMon: Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.

me too


yup, add me to that list. I'm currently running the pathfinder 'skull and shackles' adventure path for Pathfinder. I see little reason to ever go back to vanilla D&D. there's nothing there for me anymore.

and if I ever feel the need to switch things up a bit, there's always Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and/or Black Crusade.
 
2012-09-17 12:32:55 AM
I tried D&D in real life in like sixth grade. Then I realized I didn't actually want to PRETEND I was a character in a game I was playing.

Thankfully video games came along around that time and made that sort of nonsense obsolete except for rare groups of extreme nerds nowadays.

Technology has made your endless painting of silly models sort of silly now, D&D old-schoolers. Still love that AD&D Monster Manual book from my preteens though. Yum, succubi!
 
2012-09-17 12:37:31 AM

Methadone Girls: NowhereMon: Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.

me too


Same here. Loving the Skull & Shackles right now, and our group just got done with Kingmaker.
 
2012-09-17 12:42:03 AM
FTFA: Four years later, we still have yet to reach level 11.

Now you know how the elves feel. I mean seriously, you are 400 years old and you are still level 1? Are you farking slow in the head?
 
2012-09-17 02:05:59 AM

Makh: FTFA: Four years later, we still have yet to reach level 11.

Now you know how the elves feel. I mean seriously, you are 400 years old and you are still level 1? Are you farking slow in the head?


Yes. They are.
 
2012-09-17 02:24:43 AM
Any set of rules that let me pull off silly shiat like using a glass cauldron full of green slime sitting inside of a bag of holding and tossing people in for shiats and grins after robbing and raping them is a set of rules I can play by.

/never did get to rape a goddess
//not for lack of trying
 
2012-09-17 02:28:03 AM
Trying to figure out how using the Realms excludes other exotic settings as the article claims. The Realms is BY FAR the most friendly setting for including other settings(except Dark Sun due to that settings own rules) considering all the planar gates as well as the many, MANY references to Spelljamming ships and such. Hell, most major cities in the realms have ports for Spelljammers.

But even forgetting that, it is kind of the most well known setting, followed by Greyhawk. It just makes sense to keep using it as long as they can fix the crap they pulled with 4E and how that basically ruined everything that made the setting fun. At least they're getting rid of World of D&D powers.
 
2012-09-17 02:34:32 AM

NowhereMon: Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.


I'm sure we'll take a look at the next edition, but we feel really burned by 4e, and Mearls is still in charge. So, Pathfinder it is for the foreseeable future. It's loads of fun!
 
2012-09-17 02:39:14 AM
Enjoying the Fantasy Flight / 40 K RPGs - but looking forward to Monte Cook's Numenera
 
2012-09-17 02:55:55 AM

Methadone Girls: NowhereMon: Meh,
My group is fully invested in Pathfinder, I don't think there is any going back at this point.

me too


earthdawn.nerps.net
 
2012-09-17 02:57:20 AM
Wow. That came out a whole lot larger than I had intended....
 
2012-09-17 02:58:47 AM
No. There is another....

So far, it looks promising. Slightly more complex than WEG, but lightyears better than WoTC/SAGA. Plus, innovative story mechanisms.
 
2012-09-17 03:00:15 AM
Pathfinder uber Alles.
Never ever going back.
 
2012-09-17 03:05:18 AM
gamers-garage.com

My best friend from high school, back in 'aught 93, took all of his super nintendo games down to the local game store and loaded up on ALL things MERP. Ahh many days did we nerd out, and on the side threw in some Might and Magic on his awesomely fast 2x CD-ROM or threw down with the Kilrathi on some Wing Commander 2...those were the days.
 
2012-09-17 03:23:16 AM

SouthParkCon: [gamers-garage.com image 365x485]

My best friend from high school, back in 'aught 93, took all of his super nintendo games down to the local game store and loaded up on ALL things MERP. Ahh many days did we nerd out, and on the side threw in some Might and Magic on his awesomely fast 2x CD-ROM or threw down with the Kilrathi on some Wing Commander 2...those were the days.


Never got into MERP, and stuck with AD&D 2nd Ed in my olden days. But Wing Commander 2 was one of my absolute favorite PC games back then. Played through it again a couple of years ago. Very, very dated, but still entertaining.
 
2012-09-17 03:57:41 AM

Nezu Chiza: Trying to figure out how using the Realms excludes other exotic settings as the article claims. The Realms is BY FAR the most friendly setting for including other settings(except Dark Sun due to that settings own rules) considering all the planar gates as well as the many, MANY references to Spelljamming ships and such. Hell, most major cities in the realms have ports for Spelljammers.

But even forgetting that, it is kind of the most well known setting, followed by Greyhawk. It just makes sense to keep using it as long as they can fix the crap they pulled with 4E and how that basically ruined everything that made the setting fun. At least they're getting rid of World of D&D powers.


The problem that I always had with FR is that everything seems so run over already that there is nowhere to go that I wouldn't need an extra book. Plus, I never really got into any fantasy series at all (except for Discworld) and as the perpetual DM I was actually at a information disadvantage compared to my friends who read FR and DL. The best setting is D&D Basic Mystara because even though all the themed countries and hollow earth were obviously annoyingly pat, the place was pretty well empty...so Adventure and so forth. I wrote my own settings mostly, but that was definitely the best pre-built they've ever made.

I do kind of wish I had been a PC more. But, hey, someone has got to write the thing or there is no fun.
 
2012-09-17 04:01:00 AM

SouthParkCon: [gamers-garage.com image 365x485]

My best friend from high school, back in 'aught 93, took all of his super nintendo games down to the local game store and loaded up on ALL things MERP. Ahh many days did we nerd out, and on the side threw in some Might and Magic on his awesomely fast 2x CD-ROM or threw down with the Kilrathi on some Wing Commander 2...those were the days.


MERP was too close to its parent Rolemaster for my tastes. Way back when one of my gaming friends tried to get us to play Rolemaster and I swear a fight between 3 PCs and 3 orcs was abandoned after 5 hours of rolling and chart consultation. Not a fan of that system at all. As for the article itself, I also am a Pathfinder fan.
 
2012-09-17 04:31:07 AM
Ah, but MERP (and it's parent, Rolemaster) had the most entertaining critical hit tables of ALL TIME.

Ahhh, to roll the dice and kick a man in the crotch so hard his lower body explodes and showers a 10 foot diameter circle in gore. And... man bits. Ewwwwww.

/Pardon me, Bubbariel, you've got some wang hanging from your eartip.
 
2012-09-17 04:39:33 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus:
Attack the gazebo!!!


The gazebo does not respond.
 
2012-09-17 04:41:18 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com

Having been involved in the above and the 24hr marathon creation of this companion piece, I'm getting a kick...
 
2012-09-17 04:43:21 AM
And Mike Mearls starts talking like its his own baby. 5e or DND Next, in its present form, is a product of a visionnary man: Monte Cook. This guy is an awesome writer who produced a lot of stuff in Planescape for TSR, then worked on the 3e from Wizards and many supplements including the best loved Book of Vile Darkness.This was one of the best designers Wizards had, and when Hasbro took over, was one of the designers who was shown the door. Still he loved DnD and he designed D20 material for it, which were awesome.

Then came Wizard who asked him to come and work on the 5e. He started by saying that 4e was like Trash metal, Trash metal is good but a lot of people dont like Trash. What was obvious is that he was saying 4e was trash, and he at least convinced the new designers for the 5e. Which was good. Also he said, and his whole mindset going into this was that he wanted to regroup all editions into one, including the 3e and Pathfinder. He wanted to bring harmony in the edition wars, because lets face it: Wizards are not winning that war, Paizo's Pathfinder is.

However it seems that he had a difference of opinion with the leaders at Wizards, and quit the assignement. I think that tells you a lot. Another clue was an interview that he gave here. Pay close attention to his rant. Yes my friends, his vision may still be what the remaining designers are working with, but they arent including feats ( a staple of the 3e and Pathfinder ) inside the 5e. So its going to be an unified edition, except the one that still works well and the one that makes a lot of money.

We will never know what Monte said to the asshole who forced the 4e down on us ( wizards CEO ), probably it wasnt very SFW. Monte Cook is still one of the best designer out there, and his new project seems interesting. When he left the 5e, I was floored because I knew the best chance of an unified edition would die with him leaving. Now with big cannons like Sean K Reynolds leading Paizo, who will be left to make the 5e a real winner? Mike Mearls is perhaps the only man left.

What I really like is that supposedly, this time, the adventures will be edition neutral and the source material will be the same. That shows a good deal of good sense, while it lasts. What doesnt fly high is the Pathfinder world; this needs work Paizo. Right now the best campain world is still the Forgotten Realms in my opinion. So they might sell some material this time, and show Hasbro how stupid that CEO is.

"It's the very people who must now solve the problem of a very fractured marketplace who fractured it in the first place." - Monte Cook
 
2012-09-17 05:00:07 AM

Lonestar:
We will never know what Monte said to the asshole who forced the 4e down on us ( wizards CEO ), probably it wasnt very SFW.


Wizards isn't calling the shots on 5e. Hasbro is.
 
2012-09-17 05:00:57 AM

FueledByEthanol: Rolemaster) had the most entertaining critical hit tables of ALL TIME


I quite liked Rolemaster, I think you just hit on why. I also loved it when you rolled a 66. Those tables were so much fun. 
 
We've gone back to AD&D in our own GM generated setting. 4e was just annoying and we felt it was a pretty underhanded attempt to sell more plastic minitures.
 
2012-09-17 05:03:52 AM

wippit: Lonestar:
We will never know what Monte said to the asshole who forced the 4e down on us ( wizards CEO ), probably it wasnt very SFW.

Wizards isn't calling the shots on 5e. Hasbro is.


Hasbro and the CEO of Wizards, which they put in place.
 
2012-09-17 05:12:32 AM

Lonestar: And Mike Mearls starts talking like its his own baby. 5e or DND Next, in its present form, is a product of a visionnary man: Monte Cook.


Egads, man. Monte's stuff doesn't even work right on paper. He's the one that insisted on the noobie traps in 3E like Toughness. 5e will fail trying to please everyone and pleasing no one, not for lack of Monte.
 
2012-09-17 05:14:02 AM
I maintain that 4e DnD would have been an enormous success if only it was called something like "DnD: Tactical Miniatures Combat" or something, making it clear that it was a side project rather than a new edition. It's a lot of fun, it just doesn't feel like DnD. It plays more like a small-scale skirmish wargame (like Mordheim or Necromunda) than a full RPG.

I've run my group through the DnD Next playtest, and it went reasonably well. it avoids the immersion breaking artifice of "encounter powers" and so on that 4e had, but it keeps the better class balance and superior low-level play that 4e had over 3e. Here's hoping the final product shapes up.

Lonestar: And Mike Mearls starts talking like its his own baby. 5e or DND Next, in its present form, is a product of a visionnary man: Monte Cook. This guy is an awesome writer who produced a lot of stuff in Planescape for TSR, then worked on the 3e from Wizards and many supplements including the best loved Book of Vile Darkness.This was one of the best designers Wizards had, and when Hasbro took over, was one of the designers who was shown the door. Still he loved DnD and he designed D20 material for it, which were awesome.


Damn dude; we get it, Monte Cook is your messiah, and will lead you to the promised land. Blessed are those who white knight him on internet forums, and may death come on swift wings to those who actually liked 4e.
 
2012-09-17 05:15:55 AM
Next is a total piece of crap.

Player: "I want to do something cool, can I?'
DM: "Did you roll a wizard or a cleric?'
Player: "No"
DM: "Go sit down over there and play with some crayons"
 
2012-09-17 05:17:34 AM

Lonestar: Right now the best campain world is still the Forgotten Realms in my opinion.


I'm a long-time Realms lover, from back in 1st ed and before the novels came out.I would say that the Pathfinder Campign setting is just as rich and vibrant as the Realms were back in 1st/2nd edition. The difference is the horde of novels that have come out set in the Realms, basically adding another couple dozen world designers to flesh things out. One of the big advantages Pathfinder has is that they avoid a lot of the stock tropes (especially in regards to race) that the Realms has. The history in particular is well done, integrating a lot of themes together. Humans were raised up by the Aboleth, giving a very Lovecraftian theme. One of the main nations is Aldoran, a break-away nation with thematic ties to the American Revolution, in contrast to the nation of Galt wich is more tied to the bloody French Revolution. Rather than having set racial pantheons, Gods attract followers of many races; you can find Humans worshiping Elven gods and Dwarves worshiping Human Gods. It's a very cosmopolitan setting where there's areas for just about every taste in fantasy adventuring.
 
2012-09-17 05:25:45 AM
Also, since people are posting various RPG covers, here's one I enjoyed from back in the day (though it's not meant to be taken as a favorite or one I think that trumps all others)

home.insightbb.com
 
2012-09-17 05:31:32 AM
I always liked West End's Star Wars run. Easy to pick up and play. As for DnD, 2nd Edition for me. Used to like Rifts back in the day before it turned into a game of minmaxing one uppers.
 
2012-09-17 05:32:54 AM

Gunther: I maintain that 4e DnD would have been an enormous success if only it was called something like "DnD: Tactical Miniatures Combat" or something, making it clear that it was a side project rather than a new edition. It's a lot of fun, it just doesn't feel like DnD. It plays more like a small-scale skirmish wargame (like Mordheim or Necromunda) than a full RPG.


4E was simply the culmination of a trend that started with 3.5E toward focusing on miniatures combat
at the expense of the more theatrical aspects of RPGs.

I played Living Greyhawk extensively, and even as far back as the second year of the campaign it
became plain that WOTC regarded it as simply the "D&D Book of the Month Club", wherein they
ceased to care about the (sometimes compelling) local campaign plots in favor of making sure that
adventures showcased powers and things in whatever the latest sourcebook they were hawking.
And the adventures were only a collection of 3 combats with only lipservice to actual role playing.
Granted, the decentralized nature of the campaign did mean that they had to skew toward things that
could be objectively quantified, and that meant they had to focus on combat, but they also did their
damnedest to quash the regional flavour that the original campaign in the later years, and it is quite
informative that the current Living campaign is essentially regionless and wholly planned by a
WOTC-controlled committee.
 
2012-09-17 05:40:06 AM

INeedAName: Next is a total piece of crap.

Player: "I want to do something cool, can I?'
DM: "Did you roll a wizard or a cleric?'
Player: "No"
DM: "Go sit down over there and play with some crayons"


Kind of sums it up for me. That and the baked in Vancian nonsense despite the promise of everything optional, and people hopping mad about it. I don't play 4e because it's so tactical and takes up so much time in combat, but the class balance and giving fighters cool stuff to do instead of flailing about ineffectively and then waiting around while the wizard shows off again was one of the best things to ever happen to D&D. Combine the (sorta, hey at least more) fluid combat of earlier editions with the powers and balance of 4e and I think they'd have a winner. And that's not what 5e is shaping up to be at all.
 
2012-09-17 05:52:06 AM

Relatively Obscure: since people are posting various RPG covers


Yep, like Alternity too. Best SciFi  RPG I've played and while we are at it... 
 

ArcadianRefugee: [earthdawn.nerps.net image 454x253]

 
I also enjoyed EarthDawn. I like the RP of having an art to proove you weren't tainted by the horrors, but I also loved the compromise of having open-ended crits. It makes using a lighter weapon like a dagger a bit more fun. 

 
 
2012-09-17 05:59:30 AM

1. Put snakes on plane: INeedAName: Next is a total piece of crap.

Player: "I want to do something cool, can I?'
DM: "Did you roll a wizard or a cleric?'
Player: "No"
DM: "Go sit down over there and play with some crayons"

Kind of sums it up for me. That and the baked in Vancian nonsense despite the promise of everything optional, and people hopping mad about it. I don't play 4e because it's so tactical and takes up so much time in combat, but the class balance and giving fighters cool stuff to do instead of flailing about ineffectively and then waiting around while the wizard shows off again was one of the best things to ever happen to D&D. Combine the (sorta, hey at least more) fluid combat of earlier editions with the powers and balance of 4e and I think they'd have a winner. And that's not what 5e is shaping up to be at all.


I don't know about fighters, but I've been testing the Next rogue for a while now... it is NOT a boring class (at least not the way I play it). The non-combat skills/abilities are useful (depending on your gm's style, of course), and the advantage system turns a halfling rogue into the 'boom, headshot' guy. Bear in mind, my style of playing a rogue usually comes out looking more like an Errol Flynn movie than anything else...

Fighters look like they got some interesting updates in the August release, but I haven't played around with them yet.

Re: Vancian magic... I'll just end up rewriting the spell system like i did in 1e, 2e and 3e anyway. I'll never understand why they like that system so much, but I guess I'm resigned to it.
 
2012-09-17 06:09:41 AM
Oh, and for the Monte Cook fans... The Numenera kickstarter funds at 5pm EDT today (9/17/12). $50 gets you a pdf of everything (9 sourcebooks, 3d paper terrain, GM screen, 3 card decks) and a free copy of the character creator app.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1 433901524/numenera-a-new-rolepla y ing-game-from-monte-cook

/frack it, the mobile site hates my links, so you can take the spaces out yourself.
 
2012-09-17 06:10:36 AM

Toriko: Yep, like Alternity too. Best SciFi  RPG I've played and while we are at it...


i30.tinypic.com

I've got to put forth this as my favorite SciFi RPG. I thought the system was pretty simple and elegant, and I like a lot of the setting and character ideas. I've played it a couple of times, and had a short-lived campaign largely inspired by Firefly. It also worked really well with one of my favorite third-party add-ons, known in our group as "The Big Book of Backgrounds".

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-09-17 06:14:54 AM
Me: Wanna play DND?

Friend: Sure. Roll a D20.

Me: uhh... ok. I got a five.

Friend: Your head explodes.
 
2012-09-17 06:23:16 AM

RoyFokker'sGhost: I'm a long-time Realms lover, from back in 1st ed and before the novels came out.I would say that the Pathfinder Campign setting is just as rich and vibrant as the Realms were back in 1st/2nd edition. The difference is the horde of novels that have come out set in the Realms, basically adding another couple dozen world designers to flesh things out. One of the big advantages Pathfinder has is that they avoid a lot of the stock tropes (especially in regards to race) that the Realms has. The history in particular is well done, integrating a lot of themes together. Humans were raised up by the Aboleth, giving a very Lovecraftian theme.


You called?

Although I am an Aboleth, the game I still run from the 80s til now is:

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-17 06:40:24 AM

1. Put snakes on plane: INeedAName: Next is a total piece of crap.

Player: "I want to do something cool, can I?'
DM: "Did you roll a wizard or a cleric?'
Player: "No"
DM: "Go sit down over there and play with some crayons"

Kind of sums it up for me. That and the baked in Vancian nonsense despite the promise of everything optional, and people hopping mad about it. I don't play 4e because it's so tactical and takes up so much time in combat, but the class balance and giving fighters cool stuff to do instead of flailing about ineffectively and then waiting around while the wizard shows off again was one of the best things to ever happen to D&D. Combine the (sorta, hey at least more) fluid combat of earlier editions with the powers and balance of 4e and I think they'd have a winner. And that's not what 5e is shaping up to be at all.


I think the problem is they are being way too apologetic about 4e, I think the haters just talk way too loudly. 4e had it's issues, but so did all editions.

The problem is they lost a lot of people to Paizo and are trying to win them back. Problem is they risk alienating their current players trying to get them back into the fold.

I hate hate hate Vancian, it's dumb from both a combat and RP perspective.

"Cast Fireball again!" "Uh I can't I forgot it and now have to study it... again" (faceplam)

The only solution is to playtest often and write-in a lot before the munchkiners take it over. I have to plan a playtest for next week sometime.
 
2012-09-17 06:41:57 AM

Jgok: Oh, and for the Monte Cook fans... The Numenera kickstarter funds at 5pm EDT today (9/17/12). $50 gets you a pdf of everything (9 sourcebooks, 3d paper terrain, GM screen, 3 card decks) and a free copy of the character creator app.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1 433901524/numenera-a-new-rolepla y ing-game-from-monte-cook

/frack it, the mobile site hates my links, so you can take the spaces out yourself.


I bought this too. It's an awesome deal and the game looks really fun!
 
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