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(Think Progress)   Conservative organization criticizes women for dressing immodestly at mosques, and blames women for causing men to stare lustfully at them. Sorry, did I say "mosques"? I meant "churches"   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 235
    More: Scary, Values Voter Summit, mosques, churches, cell group, vice presidential candidate  
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5543 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Sep 2012 at 12:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-16 10:15:42 AM
[Browses article]

i1169.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-16 10:16:32 AM
It's really too much to ask for modesty in dress and actions in a church? What is the argument against this?

All of you religion-bashers obviously have no place in a church, and wouldn't want to be in one.

Some people take their faith somewhat seriously. It's not an unreasonable request.

The only thing that gets me is that they're always asking WOMEN to be modest, even though clearly it should be expected of both sexes. Trust me, I'm Muslim, and it's infuriating sometimes.
 
2012-09-16 10:27:19 AM

Jim_Callahan: DancingElkCondor: Christian churches, unlike Islamic mosques, actually allow women to attend services with men.

Only a DerpCon 5 Liberal whines about a Christian church having a "church dress code" for women....but says nothing about the rampant abuse of women in Islam. Hypocrites

If you're talking about US churches, Mosques typically don't have divided services either. And in the middle east and eastern Europe where they're common in Islam they're fairly frequent in Christian congregations, it's more of a general cultural thing than a religion-specific thing.

//Assuming genuine ignorance rather than trolling 'cause I'm a nice guy or some shiat.


Islam forbids mixed-gender services. The men are supposed to be seperated from women. Obviously, you have zero knowledge of Islam...like most ignorant libs
 
2012-09-16 10:29:14 AM

Jamrock: It's really too much to ask for modesty in dress and actions in a church? What is the argument against this?

All of you religion-bashers obviously have no place in a church, and wouldn't want to be in one.

Some people take their faith somewhat seriously. It's not an unreasonable request.

The only thing that gets me is that they're always asking WOMEN to be modest, even though clearly it should be expected of both sexes. Trust me, I'm Muslim, and it's infuriating sometimes.


Ta daaaaa.
 
2012-09-16 10:30:04 AM

DancingElkCondor: [herp a derp]


Account created: 2012-06-07 01:45:36
 
2012-09-16 10:30:13 AM
It's amazing how insulting this attitude is towards women and men. Against women, it suggests that it is their fault whenever people make them uncomfortable or hurt them because of how they look. Against men, it suggests that we are so lacking in even minimal self-control that a little bit of cleavage can send us over the edge into lustful perverts and rapists.

How the hell any self-respecting person can claim to be religious is beyond me, when all it offers about the human condition is insult after insult. But then again, it isn't as though cognitive dissonance is an uncommon trait.
 
2012-09-16 10:32:10 AM

DancingElkCondor: Jim_Callahan: DancingElkCondor: Christian churches, unlike Islamic mosques, actually allow women to attend services with men.

Only a DerpCon 5 Liberal whines about a Christian church having a "church dress code" for women....but says nothing about the rampant abuse of women in Islam. Hypocrites

If you're talking about US churches, Mosques typically don't have divided services either. And in the middle east and eastern Europe where they're common in Islam they're fairly frequent in Christian congregations, it's more of a general cultural thing than a religion-specific thing.

//Assuming genuine ignorance rather than trolling 'cause I'm a nice guy or some shiat.

Islam forbids mixed-gender services. The men are supposed to be seperated from women. Obviously, you have zero knowledge of Islam...like most ignorant libs


Seems like you don't either if you think that most Muslims are bloodthirsty murderers.

It would be like me generalizing Christianity based on the actions of Eric Rudolph and Fred Phelps.
 
2012-09-16 10:39:36 AM

Kome: How the hell any self-respecting person can claim to be religious is beyond me, when all it offers about the human condition is insult after insult.


The game appears to be built such that your normal, human functions are considered filthy and wrong, and simply by possessing them you have committed a crime and must seek out help. It puts you into debt with the church for "cleansing" you, and the repayment is almost always financial. My personal favorite in this con-game is the concept of "original sin". They really got painted into a corner when they realized you can't claim a baby owes the church anything, so they came up with that whopper to explain how we are literally born into the world already in debt to the church. The guy who invented that one must have woke up laughing every morning.
 
2012-09-16 10:43:08 AM
What a surprise! From the crowd where many people think raped women had it coming for the way they dress, and a resulting pregnancy is just a gift from God.
 
2012-09-16 10:57:56 AM

Kome: Against men, it suggests that we are so lacking in even minimal self-control that a little bit of cleavage can send us over the edge into lustful perverts and rapists.


Again, I'd argue that that's not quite correct; The cleavage doesn't make you into a rapist, it just causes you to have lustful thoughts that morally/spiritually are just as bad as adultery and rape. When talking about how women are viewed by the ["saved"] men in church, the argument is not that women are "asking for it;" the emphasis is on preventing them from lusting at all, because that is a horrible sin in and of itself.

This is a very important distinction, because even those fundamentalists who view scantily-dressed women as inviting any and all sexual attention would not say that a Christian assaulting someone is justified. I have a more visceral aversion to fundamentalism than most, but when people misrepresent what the fundies are saying, it bugs me. You're never going to communicate with people if you don't learn how to discuss their version of an argument.
 
2012-09-16 11:00:16 AM

raerae1980: Back when I was in Roma, I had to wear shawls to cover my shoulders if I wanted to visit the churches. Well, given my attitude toward the Catholic Church, I was not too thrilled to be wearing those smelly, sweaty shawls that other strangers had on before me. But, when in Rome...and it was a gorgeous church.


Yeah. I have a scarf that I throw in my bag for all sorts of occasions. Crazy how it works for both when I need to abide by the dress codes of where I am visiting, if the air conditioning is a bit chilly, *and* if I want a head covering because the mosquitoes are f--king attacking me.

DancingElkCondor: Christian churches, unlike Islamic mosques, actually allow women to attend services with men.

Only a DerpCon 5 Liberal whines about a Christian church having a "church dress code" for women....but says nothing about the rampant abuse of women in Islam. Hypocrites


Orthodox Jews do the same thing, you know.

/I know you do
 
2012-09-16 11:03:38 AM

Guntram Shatterhand: Religion in the United States is like dealing with an on-edge retarded person. You have to listen to whatever their mind comes up with, but you discount it because you know their condition. And when they get out of line, you have to talk down to them because you know they simply don't inhabit a sphere that normal, rational people do. Seriously, it's gotten to the point where you have to basically stop taking these people seriously as adults and just treat them like they have a closed-head injury that basically makes them unable to comprehend the real world.
Only difference? Mentally disabled people know joy, more or less. Religious folk are just bitter, nasty, cruel, and dishonest.


My brother became one of those born-agains some years ago, and he's gone off the deep end. Maybe he was a mess before, but at least I never had to listen to someone tell me that I was "full of hate" and shiat like that before he went all Christian.

I dealt with our crappy childhoods one way and he went the other. Except now he's the "enlightened" one and I'm some kind of reject, because I said some things about our childhood and our mother that are blasphemous, or something. But at least I don't have to go around telling anyone that they're "full of hate", and as far as I'm concerned, my bro can live his life as he pleases. Too bad he can't grant me the same tolerance.

And, oh yeah, my brother was just as troubled as I was before he became "saved." He was a drug dealer, FFS, plus had a drug problem that made mine look pedestrian. I will give him points for not preaching constantly, but you know how many times you need to be told that you're a hateful person before you stop caring so much about them? Yeah, about once.
 
2012-09-16 11:15:50 AM

Guntram Shatterhand: Religion in the United States is like dealing with an on-edge retarded person. You have to listen to whatever their mind comes up with, but you discount it because you know their condition. And when they get out of line, you have to talk down to them because you know they simply don't inhabit a sphere that normal, rational people do. Seriously, it's gotten to the point where you have to basically stop taking these people seriously as adults and just treat them like they have a closed-head injury that basically makes them unable to comprehend the real world.

Only difference? Mentally disabled people know joy, more or less. Religious folk are just bitter, nasty, cruel, and dishonest.

 

You know I survived Christianity and it doesn't seem you have
 
2012-09-16 11:18:58 AM
Oh, sure. Everyone mocks the religious for dress codes. But just try walking into a women's shelter as a man wearing a thong and a "Want some candy, little girl?" T-shirt, and see how soon the other sex's emotional reactions suddenly become sacrosanct.

Call it "triggering" or call it "immodesty", it works out to the same damn thing: put on some clothes appropriate to the social environment.
 
2012-09-16 11:21:59 AM

Jairzinho: What a surprise! From the crowd where many people think raped women had it coming for the way they dress, and a resulting pregnancy is just a gift from God.


No. No. No. You're not keeping up. If there's a resulting pregnancy, she secretly wanted it and she's a vulgar sinner. Otherwise the magical vaginajuices would have killed the sperm.
 
2012-09-16 11:29:51 AM

shpritz: They sell these blurry glasses for ten shekels in Bnei Brak. Any farkers in the Bible Bent want to set up an import business?


We don't use those here. We have our own.

www.charismaministries.org 

/u sound muslin
 
2012-09-16 11:31:59 AM

pacmanner: That's the problem with these religious farks. carrying around all of that sexual frustration makes em crazy. Why do you think those farks in the mid east are so pissed off? They cover their women and even have to dance with each other at social events because touching a woman is like touching the devil. Sorry but any god that would dictate that women must be covered is a stupid god. Women are beautiful to behold and to deny that beauty is in itself a sin. Fark all religion.


Kome: It's amazing how insulting this attitude is towards women and men. Against women, it suggests that it is their fault whenever people make them uncomfortable or hurt them because of how they look. Against men, it suggests that we are so lacking in even minimal self-control that a little bit of cleavage can send us over the edge into lustful perverts and rapists.

How the hell any self-respecting person can claim to be religious is beyond me, when all it offers about the human condition is insult after insult. But then again, it isn't as though cognitive dissonance is an uncommon trait.


As a gay person that has been a personal target of fundamentalist Christians, as well as the general societal pressures generated by them, I get the anger bitterness and frustrations of many people here. But I would like to remind all those people "religion" for it, that not all religions, or practitioners of them, are the same.

I would really like to hear how these parts of religious literature are so insulting or women-hating:

"You shall be free from slavery, and as a sign that you be free you shall be naked in your rites.

Sing, feast, dance, make music and love, all in My Presence, for Mine is the ecstasy of the spirit and Mine also is joy on earth.

For My law is love is unto all beings......

Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are My rituals.

Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you."

Charge of the Goddess
 
2012-09-16 11:35:25 AM

roadmarks:
As a gay person that has been a personal target of fundamentalist Christians, as well as the general societal pressures generated by them, I get the anger bitterness and frustrations of many people here. But I would like to remind all those people

that blame "religion" for it, that not all religions, or practitioners of them, are the same.

FTFM
 
2012-09-16 11:47:40 AM

Lsherm: Did anyone get stoned to death?

Then we're still ahead.


You would have to smoke a joint the size of a school bus.
 
2012-09-16 11:48:00 AM
I have an alternative option. Instead of taking away a woman's right to choose her own clothes, why don't we make it so that, in church, men have to wear shock collars? If the priests notice them staring lustfully, zap, problem solved. After all, men clearly are mentally incompetent, so someone really should keep the poor dears in line. In fact, I think evangelical Christianity should focus on making those poor, stupid, uncontrollable men the property of women, since only women can become mentally adultlike enough to have basic self-control.
 
2012-09-16 11:49:57 AM

Martian_Astronomer: This is a very important distinction, because even those fundamentalists who view scantily-dressed women as inviting any and all sexual attention would not say that a Christian assaulting someone is justified.


Except they do say that. Just a little over a year ago, a pastor forced a rape victim to apologize to her church for getting raped and impregnated by a married man. She tempted him to sin. Not sure if her manner of dress was a factor or if it was just that she existed in the same physical space and he and he couldn't control himself as a result. So please don't tell me I'm misrepresenting their position on this when they ARE in fact saying, straight up, that women (and children, considering some of the statements put out by Roman Catholic Church officials regarding the child sex scandals) somehow prevent men's ability to not molest, rape, and sexually assault other people, and as in TFA are saying that what they wear is a factor that tempts men.
 
2012-09-16 11:54:54 AM
Can American Christian Supremacists just admit that they're totally jealous of their Middle Eastern Islamic Fundamentalist counterparts?
 
2012-09-16 11:55:53 AM

red5ish: They quote "The True Woman Manifesto" in the article and OMG you can read it online.
Link

It's not as bad as you might think. It's a whole lot worse than that.


is it wrong that I would do horrible, horrible things to each woman shown in the linked article? Like, wanton, ungodly things.

/so cereal
 
2012-09-16 12:08:47 PM

PsiChick: I have an alternative option. Instead of taking away a woman's right to choose her own clothes, why don't we make it so that, in church, men have to wear shock collars? If the priests notice them staring lustfully, zap, problem solved. After all, men clearly are mentally incompetent, so someone really should keep the poor dears in line. In fact, I think evangelical Christianity should focus on making those poor, stupid, uncontrollable men the property of women, since only women can become mentally adultlike enough to have basic self-control.


These men sound pretty dangerous, and should probably have falcon hoods on their heads when they aren't under direct supervision.
 
2012-09-16 12:17:14 PM

DancingElkCondor: Islam forbids mixed-gender services. The men are supposed to be seperated from women. Obviously, you have zero knowledge of Islam...like most ignorant libs


And Christianity forbids female teachers, quite explicitly. Yet, many denominations have female pastors, and sunday-school instructors are almost invariably female. Not our fault you're basing your knowledge on documentation that's either about 1500 years or 70k miles out of date instead of, y'know, going to a damned mosque or asking a practicing muslim.
 
2012-09-16 12:26:13 PM
ironicsurrealism.comwww.passionistnuns.org

The differences are subtle but I'm going with the burka because their mouths are covered too.

/zing
 
2012-09-16 12:27:54 PM

smitty04: Modesty is in the eye of the beholder.

[www.mikarose.com image 600x1411]



She could wear that at church and I'd still have lustful thoughts.
 
2012-09-16 12:32:54 PM
In Egypt you get molested even if you're wearing the full burka. So covering up doesn't really help if a dude is hell-bent on thinking sexy thoughts. Soon us women will have to start wearing invisibility cloaks if we don't want to "defraud" the menfolks.

"Defraud" is Christian lingo for women making men all lustful outside of the proper marriage context. Wish I could find a good page on the concept.
 
2012-09-16 12:39:33 PM

Egalitarian: "Defraud" is Christian lingo for women making men all lustful outside of the proper marriage context. Wish I could find a good page on the concept.


i.imgur.com
 
2012-09-16 12:43:18 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-09-16 12:44:08 PM

tinfoil-hat maggie: FTFA: In flyers and brochures on display at Values Voters, the social conservative conference where Republican Vice Presidential nominee Paul Ryan spoke, an organization called Modesty Matters criticized women for dressing "immodestly" at church, and blamed women for causing men to stare lustfully at them.

Thank goodness they don't want Sharia law here :(


They don't. For the same reason McDonald's doesn't want Burger King ads lying around.*

*Please remove any qualitative associations you might have from your reading of this analogy.
 
2012-09-16 12:44:34 PM

red5ish: They quote "The True Woman Manifesto" in the article and OMG you can read it online.
Link

It's not as bad as you might think. It's a whole lot worse than that.


Submit to men? Fark you. I am the equal of man and will submit to none.
 
2012-09-16 12:47:13 PM
BTW I'm a female atheist who wishes American women would dress with more modesty for their own self respect. When you walk around barely covered (unless it's a bikini at the beach) you leave nothing to the imagination, and it's like you're putting yourself out there like a piece of meat. "Hi men I'm desperate for attention!" Artful use of fabric (dressing) can actually make you look more aesthetically pleasing to everyone, try it out.

But I never tell anybody this cuz it's not really my business. I'm sure they think I am a dowdy prude for wearing long skirts or pants, instead of shorts that would make Daisy Duke blush.
 
2012-09-16 12:50:05 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Egalitarian: "Defraud" is Christian lingo for women making men all lustful outside of the proper marriage context. Wish I could find a good page on the concept.

[i.imgur.com image 582x410]


Oh, that's clever.

I'm still figuring this one out, though.
www.ncsx.com
 
2012-09-16 01:03:40 PM

Martian_Astronomer: See, this stuff originates from Bible verses like this:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. - Matthew 5:28-29


The men who can't control their lust at the sight of a woman should gouge their eyes out in accordance with their beliefs. Those who don't are hypocrites.

/ex-Catholic
//remembers seeing lotsa women wearing veils in church (including my mom)
 
2012-09-16 01:09:02 PM
Honest question - why do women put up with all this shiat?

Is it some form of Stockholm Syndrome, where women have been below men historically for so long that they started to believe it themselves? If women across the globe tomorrow decide to stop having sex with their husbands until they have equality, first order of business on Tuesday at the U.N. will be full equality for everybody. If the women in any given country decided to do passive resistance, it would grind that country to a full halt. Granted there would be severe beatings, murders, etc. at first, but women are holding all the cards here. Always have been.
 
2012-09-16 01:15:11 PM

broncoitis: Examples of immodest dress at church needed. Actual examples preferred


www.thejimbolist.com

/Oblig & hot..

Weird thread.

[sacredestboner] 

/Was gonna post a pic from the Atwood book but that's already been addressed.
 
2012-09-16 01:17:38 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: ...women are holding all the cards here. Always have been.


Seriously, THIS.

Go all Lysistrata on their asses.
 
2012-09-16 01:24:50 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Egalitarian: "Defraud" is Christian lingo for women making men all lustful outside of the proper marriage context. Wish I could find a good page on the concept.

i.imgur.com

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice
And everything nice,
That's what little girls are made of.

What are little boys made of?

shiat-eating flies.

That's what little boys are made of.
 
2012-09-16 01:26:32 PM

shotglasss: mediablitz: Lsherm: Did anyone get stoned to death?

Then we're still ahead.

If our laws allowed it, we would have stonings. No doubt about it.

Some people deserve to be hit repeatedly with rocks until they're dead.


there's no hate like neocon hate
 
2012-09-16 01:28:04 PM

Egalitarian: BTW I'm a female atheist who wishes American women would dress with more modesty for their own self respect. When you walk around barely covered (unless it's a bikini at the beach) you leave nothing to the imagination, and it's like you're putting yourself out there like a piece of meat. "Hi men I'm desperate for attention!" Artful use of fabric (dressing) can actually make you look more aesthetically pleasing to everyone, try it out.

But I never tell anybody this cuz it's not really my business. I'm sure they think I am a dowdy prude for wearing long skirts or pants, instead of shorts that would make Daisy Duke blush.


You wear pants as a woman? What a slut.

/This topic is about a whole lot more than women simply showing skin.
 
2012-09-16 01:35:53 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: rynthetyn:
Yeah, but a lot of the conservative religious right politicians have ties to the groups that are actively working to implement Old Testament civil law, complete with the stoning parts. If you start looking into who has ties to the late R.J. Rushdooney and to the Chalcedon Foundation (the main organization dedicated to implementing Old Testament law), it starts to turn into a web of major who's whos in religious right politics. And that's not even going into how Diebold's owners have given the Chalcedon Foundation millions.

Basically, the stated goal of many of the religious right groups who have taken over the Republican Party is in fact precisely what you're dismissing. Uganda and the kill-the-gays bill is their test case to see if implementing theonomy can be done.

I have you farkied as (favorite: From a dark, benighted, putrid corner of crackerdom.) Now that I realize this it isn't a tongue-in-cheek description of a rural community where you grew up, I'm going to have to find an amusing quote from you.

And those idiots are scary. We (Jews) have been making our implementation of Torah more humane for millennia, and we have the entire paper trail readily available to anybody willing to put in the study time. What you're describing is horriffic and beggars the imagination.


Tell that to the pedo rabbis genitally mutilating babies then sucking their bleeding penises and giving them herpes.

The Torah might be silent on this practice, but a majority of its users is not condemning *at all* this abhorrent and illegal-in-any-other-context abuse by a minority sect. Quite the opposite. The Hassidic Jews are praised as keepers of the flame.
 
2012-09-16 02:16:06 PM

Rich Cream: [ironicsurrealism.com image 379x266][www.passionistnuns.org image 393x308]

The differences are subtle but I'm going with the burka because their mouths are covered too.

/zing


Via Vatican II, nuns really don't dress that way anymore.

Of course, Benedict is trying to unravel that and take away their autonomy and (gasp) dedication to (gasp) social justice and helping your fellow man over stupid effing dogma, but this is what nuns look like now:

p.twimg.com

I'm in my 20s, grew up Catholic, and have seen far, far, far more nuns dressed like that than in a habit. I can't even remember the last time I saw a nun in a habit at all, or anything like it, actually...
 
2012-09-16 02:20:42 PM

DeaH: No one ever suggests that men wear blindfolds. Wouldn't that be the personally responsible thing for someone who cannot control his lustful gaze?


You take it that men should be held responsible for anything involving the wild and dangerous creature known as woman.

/sarc
 
2012-09-16 02:31:04 PM

Generation_D: demaL-demaL-yeH: And those idiots are scary. We (Jews) have been making our implementation of Torah more humane for millennia, and we have the entire paper trail readily available to anybody willing to put in the study time. What you're describing is horriffic and beggars the imagination.


Tell that to the pedo rabbis genitally mutilating babies then sucking their bleeding penises and giving them herpes.

Ahem.

The Torah might be silent on this practice, but a majority [inigo_montoya.jpg] Ibid. of its users [quizzical_dog.jpg]
is not condemning *at all* this abhorrent and illegal-in-any-other-context abuse by a minority sect. [Ibid.]
Quite the opposite. The Hassidic Jews are praised [by themselves, maybe, and a minority of them, at that]
as keepers of the flame.

The source of the flame is your pants.
My, you seem to be angry.
Since Rosh HaShana begins at sunset, you've allowed me to warm up for the Days of Awe: I forgive you for libeling my religion and people. 
Don't do it again.
 
2012-09-16 02:40:02 PM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I'm in my 20s, grew up Catholic, and have seen far, far, far more nuns dressed like that than in a habit. I can't even remember the last time I saw a nun in a habit at all, or anything like it, actually...


A lot of them cut their hair short too. This proves that they are lesbians and they have lesbian orgies at their "nunneries." That would never have happened if they'd kept wearing their habits and kept their heads covered, because lesbians are insatiable and can't resist a woman with short hair.

Even worse, no man is allowed to touch them. These nunneries should be burned to the ground. Not just for keeping these women away from men, but for turning them into lesbians with their sexy modern clothing.
 
2012-09-16 02:42:13 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Since Rosh HaShana begins at sunset, you've allowed me to warm up for the Days of Awe: I forgive you for libeling my religion and people.


You're forgiving him for the offense that you took over his words? That's some weird interpretation of the Days of Awe you've got.
 
2012-09-16 02:45:00 PM

cryinoutloud: A lot of them cut their hair short too. This proves that they are lesbians and they have lesbian orgies at their "nunneries." That would never have happened if they'd kept wearing their habits and kept their heads covered, because lesbians are insatiable and can't resist a woman with short hair.

Even worse, no man is allowed to touch them. These nunneries should be burned to the ground. Not just for keeping these women away from men, but for turning them into lesbians with their sexy modern clothing.


i.imgur.com

Approves.
 
2012-09-16 02:48:26 PM

Lsherm: Did anyone get stoned to death?

Then we're still ahead.


There's your bar, Conservatives: stay just one step ahead of the cultures you describe as savage, godless, and barbaric and you still get to feel superior to them in every way.
 
2012-09-16 03:01:00 PM

broncoitis: Examples of immodest dress at church needed. Actual examples preferred


img2.etsystatic.com

Look at that hussy wearing something where the neckline points right to her ladybits!
 
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