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(The New York Times)   News: we can incinerate all our garbage with no toxic by-products. Fark: environmentalists complain it will prevent recycling   (nytimes.com) divider line 171
    More: Asinine, medical waste, environmental scientist, waste management, environmentalists, green energy, spin-off, industrial waste, PCBs  
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10456 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Sep 2012 at 9:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-15 09:27:58 AM  
I'd say stuff 'em, but I don't know enough about plastics or alternatives to fully qualify it.
 
2012-09-15 09:28:51 AM  
Only reason to complain about recycling is if this process requires more input(in energy and such) than recycling. Recycling is a feel good process that isn't always the best option for garbage.
 
2012-09-15 09:31:38 AM  
images.codingforcharity.org
 
2012-09-15 09:34:29 AM  
You know who else was a proponent of gasification?
 
2012-09-15 09:34:36 AM  
For once, most of the people involved have valid points. WTF is this doing on Fark?

I do wonder, as always, what the proponents are failing to mention, what the opponents are incorrect about, and what everyone is exaggerating or outright lying about.
 
2012-09-15 09:34:54 AM  
That's cool as hell, I've done contract work at that AFB, had no idea they had such a thing going on there. Why are we not gearing these things up all over the place!
 
2012-09-15 09:35:34 AM  
The point of recycling isn't to offset the costs of diposing but of production of a product from raw materials, so they have a point. Efficiency of that process is another story all together. But hey, being wildly inefficient is America's cultural right, right?
 
2012-09-15 09:36:45 AM  

bhcompy: Only reason to complain about recycling is if this process requires more input(in energy and such) than recycling. Recycling is a feel good process that isn't always the best option for garbage.


I can see their point in that we should factor in the energy requirements for creating more new stuff when calculating savings, but this looks pretty damn promising, so if they move to delay or block efforts to move this forward then fark them (extreme environmentalists that is).
 
2012-09-15 09:37:19 AM  
I have an innate belief that things like this usually have hidden costs that we aren't aware of and either never make the correlation or find out down the road how much we've been farking ourselves or the world at large. Science, all about coulda not shoulda. -Oswalt

/ not a luddite or rabid environmentalist
 
2012-09-15 09:37:40 AM  
"Effectively, 100 percent of all the metals on the base are being recycled,"

Well, considering the fact that this is an energy producing process and recycling generally increases the net consumption required to make a product compared to using new material, I'd say it's time for the environmentalists to shove it. Again!

There are few materials which are worth recycling. Recycling most stuff requires more energy and money than producing new material. The stuff which is worth recycling is the stuff you see junk men getting paid for by recycling centers; steel, aluminum, copper, etc. 5 cents for a glass bottle doesn't count - that's a refund of an deposit you paid.
 
2012-09-15 09:37:48 AM  
So should I recycle or not? I'm confused. More than usual, actually
 
2012-09-15 09:37:49 AM  

Counter_Intelligent: I'd say stuff 'em, but I don't know enough about plastics or alternatives to fully qualify it.


There's a range of incineration technologies. They all work fine if operated properly.

Dioxins can always form in combustion in chlorine is present (chlorinated plastics; meat; mostly scrap meat, really) during slow cooling of the flue gases. So you design your technology to quench the gases rapidly. Hey presto.

Ask the Germans. They're big into greenery and recycling - and big into incineration.
 
2012-09-15 09:38:27 AM  

Mytch: The point of recycling isn't to offset the costs of diposing but of production of a product from raw materials, so they have a point. Efficiency of that process is another story all together. But hey, being wildly inefficient is America's cultural right, right?


15 seconds...
 
2012-09-15 09:39:24 AM  

Mytch: The point of recycling isn't to offset the costs of diposing but of production of a product from raw materials, so they have a point. Efficiency of that process is another story all together. But hey, being wildly inefficient is America's cultural right, right?


+1
 
2012-09-15 09:42:00 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com

Good news, everyone!
 
2012-09-15 09:42:10 AM  

Mr. Potatoass: You know who else was a proponent of gasification?


Taco Bell?
 
2012-09-15 09:43:41 AM  
People support recycling because in addition to not adding to landfills or polluting our atmosphere with previous methods of incineration, the original manufacturing process is usually more toxic to the planet (factory run-off in water,etc) than bringing in recycled resources.
 
2012-09-15 09:47:09 AM  

opiumpoopy: Ask the Germans. They're big into greenery and recycling - and big into incineration.


i47.tinypic.com
 
2012-09-15 09:47:26 AM  
I wonder if the Japanese are looking into doing some research for this here. Even if it doesn't work as an adjunct power generation system, reducing the amounts of refuse is a worthy goal in itself.
 
2012-09-15 09:48:39 AM  

bigsmellypenis: People support recycling because in addition to not adding to landfills or polluting our atmosphere with previous methods of incineration, the original manufacturing process is usually more toxic to the planet (factory run-off in water,etc) than bringing in recycled resources.


as an example, I wish there was a place to drop off glass bottles so they could be cleaned and re-used. i think the re-use part of the "reduce, recycle, re-use" pyramid scheme is woefully under-appreciated.

/ not a hardcore environmentalist
// but, a cheap asshole.
 
2012-09-15 09:49:44 AM  
Hum, why not do both?

No need to recycle those used dildos. But return the anal beads to the collection center.
 
2012-09-15 09:53:16 AM  
How does this prevent recycling? You just filter out the stuff to recycle beforehand.
 
2012-09-15 09:55:03 AM  
I liked the idea of thermal depolymerization.

You'd take the entire waste stream, put it in a reactor at 600 degrees and 600 psi for a little while and out would spring gases, oils, ash and whatever metals were in the stream.

I remember someone had a plant making heating oil from turkey fat. It's a beautiful idea, but I think the cost of building the batch reactors was always in the way as you'd need hundreds of them for a city of a million people.
 
2012-09-15 09:55:37 AM  

grimeystubs: How does this prevent recycling? You just filter out the stuff to recycle beforehand.


How dare you use logic and reason to formulate a compromise. This is an outrage, we can't allow compromises!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-15 09:57:10 AM  

pute kisses like a man: bigsmellypenis: People support recycling because in addition to not adding to landfills or polluting our atmosphere with previous methods of incineration, the original manufacturing process is usually more toxic to the planet (factory run-off in water,etc) than bringing in recycled resources.

as an example, I wish there was a place to drop off glass bottles so they could be cleaned and re-used. i think the re-use part of the "reduce, recycle, re-use" pyramid scheme is woefully under-appreciated.

/ not a hardcore environmentalist
// but, a cheap asshole.


No one want's to do the cleaning and re-using. The problem with re-cycling is that you have to find a buyer for the recyclables, or at least someone who want's them.
 
2012-09-15 09:58:35 AM  

wildcardjack: I liked the idea of thermal depolymerization.

You'd take the entire waste stream, put it in a reactor at 600 degrees and 600 psi for a little while and out would spring gases, oils, ash and whatever metals were in the stream.

I remember someone had a plant making heating oil from turkey fat. It's a beautiful idea, but I think the cost of building the batch reactors was always in the way as you'd need hundreds of them for a city of a million people.


Annnd the problem was turkey scraps went from being something that cost money to dispose of to something that the turkey company could get money for. So the thermal depolymerization plant was essentially faced with a subsidy that became a cost.

The technology's there, in my limited understanding, but only for certain kinds of waste streams. Turkey's turkey. Municipal garbage is a whole bunch of stuff.

I strongly suspect thermal depolymerization could be really effective for tire dumps.
 
2012-09-15 09:58:35 AM  
I was part of a project maybe 20 years ago that was a pasma arc furnace (more primative than this one, obviously) that was developed to dispose of medical waste. Ate power like crazy, but there was very little waste left after processing.
What was left was also safe and not contaminated.
 
2012-09-15 10:01:35 AM  

stucka: I strongly suspect thermal depolymerization could be really effective for tire dumps.


Why won't anyone think of the mob enforcers?
 
2012-09-15 10:02:19 AM  
I stopped recycling years ago after educating myself on the recycling process... just recycling paper alone takes a crazy amount of energy and nasty toxic chemicals to return the paper to a clean pulp state.. its insane..

If you think you know about recycling then watch this video.. it just gives a small insight into the BS that is recycling..

Link
 
2012-09-15 10:02:29 AM  

grimeystubs: How does this prevent recycling? You just filter out the stuff to recycle beforehand.


On top of that it makes it even easier. Metals that run through this process melt and drop through a filter where they can be collected.

I'm not seeing the drawbacks to this system at all.

Communities can still set up recycling bins for collections. There's no interference here. On top of that, you don't have a large city's trash taking up enormous chunks of landfill space.
 
2012-09-15 10:04:01 AM  
Plasma?
imageshack.us
Good news - we need more of this
and big screen TVs, too
And those glass balls with lightning bolts inside,
 
2012-09-15 10:04:22 AM  

antron: opiumpoopy: Ask the Germans. They're big into greenery and recycling - and big into incineration.

[i47.tinypic.com image 620x310]


They've cleaned up the ovens too much. Makes the place look like a nice bakery. That removes the shock and repulsion. They need to make that place look and perhaps smell like it did in 1945.
 
2012-09-15 10:06:38 AM  

Icetech3: I stopped recycling years ago after educating myself on the recycling process... just recycling paper alone takes a crazy amount of energy and nasty toxic chemicals to return the paper to a clean pulp state.. its insane..

If you think you know about recycling then watch this video.. it just gives a small insight into the BS that is recycling..

Link


I actually work in the book printing industry, and part of the problem we get is a few of our editors who think "using recycled paper will save us money and make us feel good." That couldn't be further from the truth. It takes more energy, more chemicals, more water, and more money to recycle paper than it does to farm trees to create paper pulp suitable for printing.

Now, if you're just using that recycled paper for stuff like toilet paper or corrugate, you might be okay.
 
2012-09-15 10:07:08 AM  

pute kisses like a man: bigsmellypenis: People support recycling because in addition to not adding to landfills or polluting our atmosphere with previous methods of incineration, the original manufacturing process is usually more toxic to the planet (factory run-off in water,etc) than bringing in recycled resources.

as an example, I wish there was a place to drop off glass bottles so they could be cleaned and re-used. i think the re-use part of the "reduce, recycle, re-use" pyramid scheme is woefully under-appreciated.

/ not a hardcore environmentalist
// but, a cheap asshole.


They do that with beer bottles here.
Why I always pour into a glass, don't feel like slicing open my lip again because of a chip in the top.
 
2012-09-15 10:07:18 AM  
this is a really old technology. it's not new.
 
2012-09-15 10:07:47 AM  

Icetech3: I stopped recycling years ago after educating myself on the recycling process... just recycling paper alone takes a crazy amount of energy and nasty toxic chemicals to return the paper to a clean pulp state.. its insane..

If you think you know about recycling then watch this video.. it just gives a small insight into the BS that is recycling..

Link


I saw a man recycle scrap paper in a bucket surrounded by 30 elementary school kids 20 years ago.

Just saying.
 
2012-09-15 10:10:15 AM  

rob.d: antron: opiumpoopy: Ask the Germans. They're big into greenery and recycling - and big into incineration.

[i47.tinypic.com image 620x310]

They've cleaned up the ovens too much. Makes the place look like a nice bakery. That removes the shock and repulsion. They need to make that place look and perhaps smell like it did in 1945.


Yeaaaaaaah, I see your point. But remember what exactly was cleaned up. One hopes it was removed and interred with some respect. If you'd left the ashes and fat and whatever else around, you'd be, I think, pretty damned disrespectful.
 
2012-09-15 10:11:28 AM  
I don't understand the whole "hidden costs" argument. I just spent 12 grand to get 3 kilowatts of solar panels installed. Yesterday it was bright and sunny, and I sold $6 of electricity back to the power company. So, $150 a month, or even maybe $120. Let's call it $120, that means it takes me 100 months to get my investment back. The panels and inverter have a 20 year warranty. 100 months is 8-ish years. Everything after 8 years from now, is pure profit, assuming electricity prices don't go up (hah!).

How do these "hidden costs" enter into my calculations? I don't see it. Please, help me understand it,before I buy another few kilowatts of power.
 
2012-09-15 10:13:10 AM  
I wonder if this technology can be modified to allow production of carbon nanotubes.
 
2012-09-15 10:13:17 AM  

Icetech3: I stopped recycling years ago after educating myself on the recycling process... just recycling paper alone takes a crazy amount of energy and nasty toxic chemicals to return the paper to a clean pulp state.. its insane..

If you think you know about recycling then watch this video.. it just gives a small insight into the BS that is recycling..

Link


Well...No. A good rule of thumb when watching Penn & Teller is that they irrationally hate religion and environmentalists and anything they say on those subject should not be taken at face value.
 
2012-09-15 10:19:17 AM  

Rufus Lee King: Look, go ahead and remove plastic, glass, whatever into your little blue containers. In the end, they dump it all in the same landfill with the rest of the garbage. Wake up, folks.


Overgeneralizations are overgeneralized. Always.
 
2012-09-15 10:27:20 AM  

djh0101010: . I just spent 12 grand to get 3 kilowatts of solar panels installed.


just installed a 7.2 kw system in July. ROI in 7.5 years. If electricity prices go up (mine did right after install), your ROI gets closer than 8 years.
 
2012-09-15 10:27:41 AM  

Rufus Lee King: djh0101010: Overgeneralizations are overgeneralized. Always.

Mostly.


Sometimes.
 
2012-09-15 10:28:19 AM  

djh0101010: I don't understand the whole "hidden costs" argument. I just spent 12 grand to get 3 kilowatts of solar panels installed. Yesterday it was bright and sunny, and I sold $6 of electricity back to the power company. So, $150 a month, or even maybe $120. Let's call it $120, that means it takes me 100 months to get my investment back. The panels and inverter have a 20 year warranty. 100 months is 8-ish years. Everything after 8 years from now, is pure profit, assuming electricity prices don't go up (hah!).

How do these "hidden costs" enter into my calculations? I don't see it. Please, help me understand it,before I buy another few kilowatts of power.


If you're doing it to save money on a personal level, then sure.

If you're doing it out of a desire to do the planet good... making solar panels can be an ugly process, pollution-wise. Enough to offset eight-ten years of electricity production? Maybe, maybe not. It's different kinds of pollution, too.
 
2012-09-15 10:28:37 AM  
I just noticed that they are from Gulf Breeze. Land of fruits and nuts.
 
2012-09-15 10:29:40 AM  

djh0101010: I don't understand the whole "hidden costs" argument. I just spent 12 grand to get 3 kilowatts of solar panels installed. Yesterday it was bright and sunny, and I sold $6 of electricity back to the power company. So, $150 a month, or even maybe $120. Let's call it $120, that means it takes me 100 months to get my investment back. The panels and inverter have a 20 year warranty. 100 months is 8-ish years. Everything after 8 years from now, is pure profit, assuming electricity prices don't go up (hah!).

How do these "hidden costs" enter into my calculations? I don't see it. Please, help me understand it,before I buy another few kilowatts of power.


Upkeep?

Seriously, that's all I can think of.
 
2012-09-15 10:31:21 AM  
Well now we have a plasma arc "lightning" process to convert into energy all those now obsolete Apple accessories.
 
DVD
2012-09-15 10:31:22 AM  
In addition to the idea of sorting out recyclables before hand, the process here seems to make previously unrecycled items (bits of steel, etc) available for reuse.
 
2012-09-15 10:32:25 AM  
People are feel threatened when their religious superstitions are challenged.
 
2012-09-15 10:33:08 AM  

Mytch: The point of recycling isn't to offset the costs of diposing but of production of a product from raw materials, so they have a point. Efficiency of that process is another story all together. But hey, being wildly inefficient is America's cultural right, right?


That's always been my understanding as well, though I'll be the first to admit that I'd love to see recycling technologies become a lot more efficient with fewer byproducts; you know, work on that sustainable industry model.
 
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