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(Japan Today)   Now there are six Chinese ships around the islands which Japan is buying. At this rate, someone's going to be able to walk there   (japantoday.com) divider line 33
    More: Followup, Chinese, Japan Coast Guard, Japan, patrol vessels, Diaoyu, Okinawa, archipelagoes  
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1287 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Sep 2012 at 11:06 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-14 08:55:36 AM  
As someone who is going to China and Japan next week, I'm getting a big kick...
 
2012-09-14 09:01:38 AM  
A little quick background:

"After a 1968 study by experts discovered that oil reserves might be found under the sea near the Senkaku Islands, Japan's ownership of the islands has been disputed by the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Republic of China (ROC, also known as Taiwan) following the transfer of administration from United States to Japan in 1971. The Chinese claim the discovery and control of the islands from the 14th century. Japan controlled the islands from 1895 until its surrender at the end of World War II. The United States administered them as part of the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands from 1945 until 1972, when the islands reverted to Japanese control under the Okinawa Reversion Treaty between the United States and Japan.

The islands are an issue in foreign relations between Japan and the PRC and between Japan and the ROC. Despite the complexity of relations between the PRC and ROC, both governments agree that the islands are part of Taiwan as part of Toucheng Township in Yilan County of their respective divisions. Japan does not officially recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state, and regards the islands as a part of Ishigaki, Okinawa Prefecture and acknowledges neither the claims of the PRC nor ROC to the islands. The Japanese government has not allowed Ishigaki to develop the islands."
 
2012-09-14 09:22:31 AM  

Charlie Freak: As someone who is going to China and Japan next week, I'm getting a big kick...


You going to the big martial arts tournament they hold on that island every 5 years or so?
I'm told Cain will be there.
 
2012-09-14 10:46:54 AM  
So is the question then, "does Japan have the military nuts to make China STFU and get out of their water"?
 
2012-09-14 11:10:30 AM  
This... is something far more interesting than other more vocally-discussed events.

Not that I think it'll blow up, but territorial disputes never quite end as well as hoped.
 
2012-09-14 11:10:36 AM  

unlikely: So is the question then, "does Japan have the military nuts to make China STFU and get out of their water"?


Does China have the nuts to piss off one of the closest allies of its biggest trading partner?
 
2012-09-14 11:12:11 AM  

unlikely: So is the question then, "does Japan have the military nuts to make China STFU and get out of their water"?


Why would Japan care to escalate this? This is just to keep the Chinese people and rallying to flag while their October government power transfer occurs. The CCP wants folks busy burning Toyota dealerships and chanting anti Japanese slogans, not setting up for Tienanmen 2.0. China's gonna sail its coast guard vessels around the islands and talk shiat for a bit.
 
2012-09-14 11:12:16 AM  
You call that a navy?

now this is a navy:
faculty.nps.edu
 
2012-09-14 11:17:17 AM  

unlikely: So is the question then, "does Japan have the military nuts to make China STFU and get out of their water"?


Japan has a sort of half-assed "Self-Defense Force" Navy, which is more like a Coast Guard. China could squash them like bugs if it wants to.
 
2012-09-14 11:18:15 AM  
This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection
 
2012-09-14 11:19:29 AM  

Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection


Give China 10 years.
 
2012-09-14 11:20:44 AM  
Nationalism is the scourge of Humanity.

"Monkeys killing Monkeys over pieces of the ground."
 
2012-09-14 11:24:01 AM  
Now, shall we dispense with the bull?

/obligatory, tovarisch.
 
2012-09-14 11:24:08 AM  

indylaw: unlikely: So is the question then, "does Japan have the military nuts to make China STFU and get out of their water"?

Japan has a sort of half-assed "Self-Defense Force" Navy, which is more like a Coast Guard. China could squash them like bugs if it wants to.


By which you mean the second most power nation in the world right in terms of surface fleet? Aegis Destroyers, big decks for ASW, a shiatload of P-3 patrol craft, and an excellent naval tradition. About the only the thing Japan lacks is a carrier, but with all their airfields in the region, they's not a huge concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_ships_of_the_Japan_Mariti m e_Self-Defense_Force

Maybe the one the Brits finish off their two carriers and get all their Type 45s in the water they can claim second place, but right now America, Japan, and the ROK are the only countries in the world that can put a full force of guided missile destroyers in the water. The Japanese Navy vs the current Chinese Navy would basically be a repeat of the 1930s, only featuring more targets for Japan to sink.

Japan also operates a kickass diesel electric submarine force and is in the Top 5 for submarine operations.
 
2012-09-14 11:27:15 AM  

indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.


Okay, and in ten years we'll still be spending way to farking much on our invisible robotic submarine army and space-plane drone fleet.
 
2012-09-14 11:28:46 AM  
If they wanted to walk there, they should have sent 6 Brazilian ships.
 
2012-09-14 11:33:37 AM  
I supposed before anyone gets pedantic, I should say a modern force of guided missile destroyers. China's Type 52Cs might qualify, but at the tend of the day they're just firing domestic improvements of the S-300 SAM. Which while nice, isn't something we haven't seen before and isn't all that scary. Plus they only have two hulls in service that can fire it. Odds are the Japanese submarines would just put the 052Cs on the bottom of the ocean and go from there.

/the only thing really lacks are the logistic vessels for long range for projection, which isn't an issue when they're just trashing the Chinese Navy
 
2012-09-14 11:36:03 AM  

indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.


With basic motivation and a heavy dash of nationalism....give Japan 2 years. China has money and poplulation. Japan has some of the sickest, most twistedly brilliant minds the world has ever seen. Do not piss off Japan and give them something to focus on, or god help us all.
 
2012-09-14 11:36:53 AM  
Fark China. Give it to Taiwan.
 
2012-09-14 11:38:16 AM  
Keep buying that Communist Chinese crap. You're just helping build the military that will slaughter your loved ones.

/Taiwan is still plucky little boot-strappy Taiwan but I'm beginning to think the infiltration from ChiCom is taking hold
/Last night I saw a ChiCom talking head talking about saving face with Japan. Jesus, nations acting like frail old men trying to hold on to their shriveling manhoods.
 
2012-09-14 11:41:37 AM  

orclover: Japan has some of the sickest, most twistedly brilliant minds the world has ever seen.


I wouldn't go that far. They have some decent research scientists and some damn good industrial designers, who can figure out how to make someone else's ideas into a viable, efficient product.
 
2012-09-14 11:50:29 AM  

orclover: indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.

With basic motivation and a heavy dash of nationalism....give Japan 2 years. China has money and poplulation. Japan has some of the sickest, most twistedly brilliant minds the world has ever seen. Do not piss off Japan and give them something to focus on, or god help us all.


Japan really has everything they need on the shelf. They license build the best stuff the world has, Aegis, SM-2MRs/SM-3s, pimped out F-15s, F-16 Agile Falcons (F-2 in Japan), Air Independent Propulsion Systems for their submarines and they improve on it. They've shot down ballistic missiles in tests with their Aegis Destroyers. They asked for a license to build the F-22 and after it was denied they started their own project to make something close. They play nice, pay their licensing fees and only build what they was licensed, but they have the plans for it, they know how to build it, and they can say fark it and kick production into high gear whenever they want. China's still occupied with its failed attempts to carbon copy a Su-33. Plus Japan cooperates closely with the USN and has its own institutional knowledge from Imperial times about fighting mass wars. If Japan ever decided they had made concerns about China and pumped more of their GDP into their military, they'd field something truly farking scary.

/plus Korea will be siding with Japan since they had hate the idea of China being too dominate in Asia and they're basically Japan Junior right now
//they build their own Aegis warships and modern strike fighters as well
 
2012-09-14 12:28:26 PM  
"You've dropped enough sonobuoys, that a man could walk from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland, without gettin' his feet wet."

www.wearysloth.com
 
2012-09-14 12:29:26 PM  

zarberg: "You've dropped enough sonobuoys, that a man could walk from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland, without gettin' his feet wet."

[www.wearysloth.com image 320x240]


Was thinking that's what subby was referring to.
 
2012-09-14 01:10:57 PM  
So let me see. If I buy an island currently located within the claimed boundaries of another country then that land becomes US territory? But only if I plant a flag or some such?
 
2012-09-14 01:14:56 PM  

indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.


China is not going to build 11 aircraft carriers in 10 years. Nor will they have the need to.

Give them 50.
 
2012-09-14 01:24:03 PM  

Ishkur: indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.

China is not going to build 11 aircraft carriers in 10 years. Nor will they have the need to.


Carrier Battlegroups are so last decade. China already has the majority of the planet "afraid" of it, why spent billions to make them ... more afraid?
 
2012-09-14 01:46:32 PM  
Can't wait for when China declares the Caspian Sea a historical part of China.
 
2012-09-14 01:55:43 PM  
 
2012-09-14 02:49:37 PM  

ha-ha-guy: orclover: indylaw: Magorn: This si why the US is the only world Super-power..,cause we're the only country in the world that doesn't have to put air quotes around the word "navy" when speaking of their armed forces.

Armies are for invasions, Navies are for power projection

Give China 10 years.

With basic motivation and a heavy dash of nationalism....give Japan 2 years. China has money and poplulation. Japan has some of the sickest, most twistedly brilliant minds the world has ever seen. Do not piss off Japan and give them something to focus on, or god help us all.

Japan really has everything they need on the shelf. They license build the best stuff the world has, Aegis, SM-2MRs/SM-3s, pimped out F-15s, F-16 Agile Falcons (F-2 in Japan), Air Independent Propulsion Systems for their submarines and they improve on it. They've shot down ballistic missiles in tests with their Aegis Destroyers. They asked for a license to build the F-22 and after it was denied they started their own project to make something close. They play nice, pay their licensing fees and only build what they was licensed, but they have the plans for it, they know how to build it, and they can say fark it and kick production into high gear whenever they want. China's still occupied with its failed attempts to carbon copy a Su-33. Plus Japan cooperates closely with the USN and has its own institutional knowledge from Imperial times about fighting mass wars. If Japan ever decided they had made concerns about China and pumped more of their GDP into their military, they'd field something truly farking scary.

/plus Korea will be siding with Japan since they had hate the idea of China being too dominate in Asia and they're basically Japan Junior right now
//they build their own Aegis warships and modern strike fighters as well


That really would be the ideal way for the US to fight a war against China - supporting Japan and possibly RoK. Japan and South Korea are outstanding allies in the region and are mature democracies that value their freedoms. Their people, much like the Europeans in the 40s, are worth fighting and dying for - and I'm no war hawk. The Japanese and Korean Defense forces could easily contain China and provide base-of-operations for most of the United States' strategic and tactical air power. Might even be wageable without nukes. At least the F22 would finally find a purpose outside of the hanger.
 
2012-09-15 06:36:37 AM  

madgonad: That really would be the ideal way for the US to fight a war against China - supporting Japan and possibly RoK. Japan and South Korea are outstanding allie ...


There is really no "ideal" to be found here. A naval battle in the Pacific. particularly in the seas that lead in and out of China. would be a shiatstorm of epic proportions. Much of China's trade is by sea. And we do a lot of trade with them. In addition, Korea is the largest shipbuilder in the world. Tie up access to their yards, and every commercial fleet in the world sees their delivery schedule for ships radically altered.

I'm not saying our global economy isn't a deck of cards that was doomed from the start. But there are a lot of players with a lot of skin in the game, and who will come down on who's side is going to be pretty much a guess.
 
2012-09-15 06:38:23 AM  
deck of cards -> house of cards...

I really should stop posting before my first coffee of the day.
 
2012-09-15 10:43:42 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: madgonad: That really would be the ideal way for the US to fight a war against China - supporting Japan and possibly RoK. Japan and South Korea are outstanding allie ...

There is really no "ideal" to be found here. A naval battle in the Pacific. particularly in the seas that lead in and out of China. would be a shiatstorm of epic proportions. Much of China's trade is by sea. And we do a lot of trade with them. In addition, Korea is the largest shipbuilder in the world. Tie up access to their yards, and every commercial fleet in the world sees their delivery schedule for ships radically altered.

I'm not saying our global economy isn't a deck of cards that was doomed from the start. But there are a lot of players with a lot of skin in the game, and who will come down on who's side is going to be pretty much a guess.


At the end of the day, that part about resources via ship is the real reason there won't be a war. Australia isn't going to sell minerals to China if they go to war with America. Chinese merchant ships bringing shiat in from Africa will never get past the USN, we'll just interdict them out in the Indian Ocean where China can barely even project power. Central Asia is a no go for China with our bases there.

Meanwhile the ROK, ROC, and Japanese Air Forces would easily take out China's collection of Russian fighters and domestic clones. Supplement them with American missile defense and USAF units and it will be bloody, but heavily in our favor. End of the day, we can't occupy China (they have 20 million in the Shanghai metro region alone), but we can pretty much knock them back to the level of pig iron and steam engines via missile strikes on industry and shutting down their access to resources.

Basically unless some extremely aggressive and stupid militaristic regime takes over China and thinks they have the domestic stockpiles to win a world war, they know how this ends at the end of the day. They have inferior technology and are resource limited, it isn't good for them.

The worrying thing is that a lot of Chinese think because they're rich, resources won't be a problem. That they can just fight Japan and pay off America not to fark them up. It shows a poor grasp of history, yes America can be bribed, but when you fark with a close democratic friend of ours we're more likely to take your money and then fail to stay bribed. End of the day we like money, but we likely cracking skulls more.
 
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