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(Jezebel)   If you've been seeing the term "mansplaining" lately and are confused or irritated by it, let this article womansplain it to you   (jezebel.com) divider line 304
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12112 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2012 at 11:26 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-14 01:13:14 AM  

FishyFred: What would constitute evidence? Video? Audio? Reports from conferences? There was a dustup a year or two ago when a panel on women in secularism was made up entirely of men. Someone actually made it a point to mention in a presentation how attractive a particular video blogger was.

Or you can take their word for it that it happens. Or you can take my word for it because I used to be very involved and I saw it up close.


For the amount of outcry that they are presenting - yes, some kind of quantification would be nice. Reports? Polls? Consensus?

Saying how attractive someone is does not break the threshold of harassment. That someone would think it would lends more evidence to the notion that this isn't about what most people would consider an epidemic of harassment, it's more about a radical feminist insurgency trying to create the perception of one. FFS, people used to regularly "propose" to Rebecca, and she seemed totally cool with it. Rebecca herself has often made, and still makes, very sexual jokes about men and specific men on the SGU, her blog, and at conferences. You can't then dip the threshold for 'harassment' down to sweep in someone who says "you're pretty" to a woman on stage.

I'm not going to 'take someone's word for it' when they have demonstrated that their definitions have a heavy activist angle.

Read the nasty comments some time. They don't line up with what you're saying here.

I've read them. People are saying mean, nasty things for the same reason we're saying them in here. Rebecca Watson is a coont. Jen McCreight is a retarded biatch. Do I say these things because I have something in particular against women? No, I say them because I find them to be extremely unsavory, disingenuous people, and I want to verbally hurt them - and I know that gender-based insults seem to strike them the hardest.
 
2012-09-14 01:13:19 AM  
New Term, "Coontsplaining"
 
2012-09-14 01:13:49 AM  

FishyFred: Read the nasty comments some time. They don't line up with what you're saying here.


www.gigatonne.com
 
2012-09-14 01:15:43 AM  

Donn C. Drummond in Disguise: ///WAIT! Am I MANSPLAINING? (Do I get any credit for only procreating a daughter-whom I am teaching to challenge conventional wisdom in all its forms?)


No, you get no credit. You're uneducated, you're a conspiracy theorist, you procreated, and you've most likely created a more intelligent stupid version of you.

No credit. Your daughter is just going to be really smart at being an idiot.

Conspiracy theorists aren't stupid, they are usually very smart. But they're stupid because they focus narrowly on something they have no expertise about.

I'm not calling the guy down the street who dedicated his life to baseball cards stupid because he makes a living at it. But I'm not calling him stupid because he has expertise. You don't. About anything.
 
2012-09-14 01:16:08 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: In theory. But see, here's the thing. In real life I've never been outspoken about my beliefs in a way that was anything but earnestly trying to get people to understand that I'm not insulting them or threatening them (kept a lot of beliefs to myself to be safe). And I'm a ridiculously idealistic person who tries to help everyone get along and respect each other and help each other and see that we have common goals and everything is better when we work together. I can't shake this core belief that if people just understood each other well enough, there would be a little bit of very civil debate about a few things, but otherwise we'd all get along wonderfully and things would be productive, etc.

And you know what? That just doesn't work. Ever. People are assholes and I've tried more times than I'd like to admit to bend over backwards and tie myself in knots to still find a way to get them to a point where they kind of almost respect each other or anything pleasant, and a lot of people just don't have that mode.

So I'm an extremely sweet and helpful person to everyone (in a non-Fark setting) and only try to get to know the people who already get why words like "mansplain" exist. It works well for me.


I don't know how much of a feminist you are, or how often you visit feminist blogs, but I ask you to stand back a foot or two, reread what you wrote and then read some of these, and then perhaps have a chuckle at the human condition.

Geekfeminism: Nice Guy Syndrome

Heartless biatches: Nice Guys = Bleah

Heartless biatches: Nice Guys = Bleah : Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

Anyway, you sound nice, you really do.
 
2012-09-14 01:17:26 AM  

Quadruple Entendre: doloresonthedottedline: In theory. But see, here's the thing. In real life I've never been outspoken about my beliefs in a way that was anything but earnestly trying to get people to understand that I'm not insulting them or threatening them (kept a lot of beliefs to myself to be safe). And I'm a ridiculously idealistic person who tries to help everyone get along and respect each other and help each other and see that we have common goals and everything is better when we work together. I can't shake this core belief that if people just understood each other well enough, there would be a little bit of very civil debate about a few things, but otherwise we'd all get along wonderfully and things would be productive, etc.

And you know what? That just doesn't work. Ever. People are assholes and I've tried more times than I'd like to admit to bend over backwards and tie myself in knots to still find a way to get them to a point where they kind of almost respect each other or anything pleasant, and a lot of people just don't have that mode.

So I'm an extremely sweet and helpful person to everyone (in a non-Fark setting) and only try to get to know the people who already get why words like "mansplain" exist. It works well for me.

/almost replied to an earlier post you had in this thread to ask if we dated once

The earlier post was hyperbole, and admittedly a bit over the top, but I used the imagery to make a point - it sucks when someone uses phrases that insult an entire group of people so generally.

I dig that you're probably a good person, and probably a generally cool chick, especially by your comments above. And I share your disdain for how people are turning out - but in my opinion, articles like this serve to remind us how absolutely, irrevocably divided and hate-filled people are. When I read stuff like this, blogs and articles with a nearly institutional air of disgust for the "other side", I'm truly shocked that the human race hasn't yet devolved into perpetual, murderous, hand-to-hand combat.

The ideal you describe is not one to be discarded, though. We can get there. I think we just need to start marginalizing the right people....assholes, of every gender, race, and cultural background, and avoid repeating the generalizations that relate to those superficial traits.


I hate Jezebel and generally avoid it like the plague--they're only into feminism in the feel-good "YOU GO GIRL" sense and when it's something like this that gets page views. So, no complaints on hating the article. And I don't think there's anything useful about the term "mansplain" outside of websites for only very involved feminists (like I Blame the Patriarchy).

CSS: When I was in high school, I had this summer smart kid camp scholarship program (whatever), and they had a series of seminars called "Isms of Prejudice." One was about religion, and they invited people with less known religions to speak up. I was there talking about Modern Satanism, which I was into at the time. I was up there on stage, this short girl with her hair curled, wearing a flowery pink polo and Mary Janes or something, super bubbly voice, trying to explain the virtues of the belief system. (Later realized humanism was a more accurate description and was happy to toss LaVey aside.)
 
2012-09-14 01:20:23 AM  

ZipSplat: It's incredibly stupid. The Skepchick/FTB community is trying to hallmonitor for something that doesn't exist.


Not just hallmonitoring, they're trying to actively manufacture these faults, by choosing a designated scapegoat and nitpicking his/her every word and action until they find something to declare wrong, then bullying him/her out of every relationship he/she has because they need to prove themselves correct.

/then they congratulate themselves on being perceptive enough to find and destroy the imperfection
//they only need an official building to become Orwell's Ministry of Love
 
2012-09-14 01:20:47 AM  
The only time the term occurs to me is if a man tells me how I should feel about a feminist issue. Stupid example (but one that shouldn't cause an argument): I hate the movie Death Proof, but several male friends tell me I'm wrong for not liking it, because "it's a feminist movie." To me, mansplaining is the equivalent of me, a white person, telling a non-white person how to feel about racism in America. The article is offensive, however, in a trolltastic way, and makes Jezebel look like a typical vapid ladymag except biatchier.
 
2012-09-14 01:21:57 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: In theory. But see, here's the thing. In real life I've never been outspoken about my beliefs in a way that was anything but earnestly trying to get people to understand that I'm not insulting them or threatening them


One problem is that the word "mansplain" itself, on its very face, sounds so condescending to people who might otherwise agree with you that it doesn't even matter if you try to convince them that you're not being insulting, you're going to get backlash. It's like calling a girl a bimbo and then insisting that you weren't trying to be rude. I know why the word exists, my mom was an academic feminist, and I still think that the word itself is both useless (in that it is very easily supplanted by other more common words) and counterproductive (in that it sets otherwise agreeable people on the defensive). TBH it seems mostly like a word that feminists use to complain about men than a word that is useful in any rhetorical fashion.
 
2012-09-14 01:23:18 AM  
When she talks, are you listening to what she's saying or merely rehearsing your next line?

I'll give you three guesses.
 
2012-09-14 01:25:00 AM  

ChaoticLimbs:

Show me one who knows what the red button on the garbage disposal does. (or knew before just now that it existed)

Show me a pretty girl who knows how to change a tire. Good luck. And I don't mean IN THEORY, show me one who has actually done it!


Me, and me.

I've also replaced the alternator, various belts, and the driver's side (power) window, not to mention all the smaller car maintenance stuff I've done like changing my own oil, replacing my brake pads, and replacing a worn-out electrical relay.

I'm also getting a PhD in physics.
 
2012-09-14 01:25:37 AM  

Gawdzila: So what happens when women do this?


And this, ladies and gentleman, is the crux of the whole gender equality issue. If you've so polarized that you believe some bullshiat like "Oh MEN are always so condescending, but women almost never are!" you've gone full derp. Stop thinking of and categorizing people based on what organs they have between their legs and realize that personality, by and large, is not determined by sex.

But then, I'm just being misogynistic I guess.
 
2012-09-14 01:26:20 AM  

ZombiesYall: The only time the term occurs to me is if a man tells me how I should feel about a feminist issue. Stupid example (but one that shouldn't cause an argument): I hate the movie Death Proof, but several male friends tell me I'm wrong for not liking it, because "it's a feminist movie." To me, mansplaining is the equivalent of me, a white person, telling a non-white person how to feel about racism in America. The article is offensive, however, in a trolltastic way, and makes Jezebel look like a typical vapid ladymag except biatchier.


"biatchier" (be-shi-AY) sounds like a French word for a periodical of complaints from local townsfolk.
 
2012-09-14 01:27:55 AM  
Yes, a lot of men are big jerks. Yes, they should be discouraged from acting that way.
No, articles like this will not accomplish that.
 
2012-09-14 01:29:45 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: I Blame the Patriarchy


Apparently, women aren't very good with computer-stuff.

puu.sh
 
2012-09-14 01:30:08 AM  
Ladies,
I have a habit of doing this. I am aware of it, and working to correct it.

I also enjoy wine and a good cry sometimes.

/how you doin'
 
2012-09-14 01:30:21 AM  

RoyBatty: doloresonthedottedline: In theory. But see, here's the thing. In real life I've never been outspoken about my beliefs in a way that was anything but earnestly trying to get people to understand that I'm not insulting them or threatening them (kept a lot of beliefs to myself to be safe). And I'm a ridiculously idealistic person who tries to help everyone get along and respect each other and help each other and see that we have common goals and everything is better when we work together. I can't shake this core belief that if people just understood each other well enough, there would be a little bit of very civil debate about a few things, but otherwise we'd all get along wonderfully and things would be productive, etc.

And you know what? That just doesn't work. Ever. People are assholes and I've tried more times than I'd like to admit to bend over backwards and tie myself in knots to still find a way to get them to a point where they kind of almost respect each other or anything pleasant, and a lot of people just don't have that mode.

So I'm an extremely sweet and helpful person to everyone (in a non-Fark setting) and only try to get to know the people who already get why words like "mansplain" exist. It works well for me.

I don't know how much of a feminist you are, or how often you visit feminist blogs, but I ask you to stand back a foot or two, reread what you wrote and then read some of these, and then perhaps have a chuckle at the human condition.

Geekfeminism: Nice Guy Syndrome

Heartless biatches: Nice Guys = Bleah

Heartless biatches: Nice Guys = Bleah : Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

Anyway, you sound nice, you really do.


I loved that website in high school, actually--can't believe it's still around (I'm 24). Which is weird because I was wondering just the other day if it still existed.

Too many ways to take what you said, so I'm not sure exactly what you meant.

I went through a phase where I read a ton of feminist blogs, but that lined up with the start of the 2008 primaries, and between the misogyny directed toward Hillary from Obama-loving "feminists" and the later misogyny directed toward Palin (plenty of valid reasons to hate her outside of gender), my reading list was whittled down to a few blogs like I Blame the Patriarchy, Echidne of the Snakes, Anglachel, Elizabiatchez, etc.
And most of them have become significantly less active for probably the same reason that I started avoiding most feminist websites.


People suck and are too easily swayed to hate "the other team." Mansplaining is a word that should only be used to vent in the context someone gave above of a privileged person explaining why a marginalized person isn't REALLY marginalized. Or I guess as a convenient tool by feminist separatists who just can't handle this shiat anymore and want men to leave them alone, haha.
 
2012-09-14 01:30:42 AM  
 
2012-09-14 01:30:49 AM  

FizixJunkee: ChaoticLimbs:

Show me one who knows what the red button on the garbage disposal does. (or knew before just now that it existed)

Show me a pretty girl who knows how to change a tire. Good luck. And I don't mean IN THEORY, show me one who has actually done it!


Me, and me.


You're saying you're pretty?
 
2012-09-14 01:32:18 AM  

FizixJunkee: ChaoticLimbs:

Show me one who knows what the red button on the garbage disposal does. (or knew before just now that it existed)

Show me a pretty girl who knows how to change a tire. Good luck. And I don't mean IN THEORY, show me one who has actually done it!


Me, and me.

I've also replaced the alternator, various belts, and the driver's side (power) window, not to mention all the smaller car maintenance stuff I've done like changing my own oil, replacing my brake pads, and replacing a worn-out electrical relay.

I'm also getting a PhD in physics.


Andulamb: When she talks, are you listening to what she's saying or merely rehearsing your next line?

I'll give you three guesses.


Trick question. The real answer is: I'm staring at her boobs.
 
2012-09-14 01:33:07 AM  
Wait...this thread needed a trigger warning alert because my fragile female feelings might be hurt!

/kidding

But seriously, I stop taking people seriously when they use terms like "mansplaining".
 
2012-09-14 01:34:58 AM  

doglover: ZombiesYall: The only time the term occurs to me is if a man tells me how I should feel about a feminist issue. Stupid example (but one that shouldn't cause an argument): I hate the movie Death Proof, but several male friends tell me I'm wrong for not liking it, because "it's a feminist movie." To me, mansplaining is the equivalent of me, a white person, telling a non-white person how to feel about racism in America. The article is offensive, however, in a trolltastic way, and makes Jezebel look like a typical vapid ladymag except biatchier.

"biatchier" (be-shi-AY) sounds like a French word for a periodical of complaints from local townsfolk.


Good point. You could go by that logic and make it a person who complains as well, like a barbier cuts hair.
 
2012-09-14 01:35:17 AM  

GranoblasticMan: Gawdzila: So what happens when women do this?

And this, ladies and gentleman, is the crux of the whole gender equality issue. If you'vere so polarized that you believe some bullshiat like "Oh MEN are always so condescending, but women almost never are!" you've gone full derp. Stop thinking of and categorizing people based on what organs they have between their legs and realize that personality, by and large, is not determined by sex.

But then, I'm just being misogynistic I guess.


FTFM...

GranoblasticMan: FizixJunkee: ChaoticLimbs:

Show me one who knows what the red button on the garbage disposal does. (or knew before just now that it existed)

Show me a pretty girl who knows how to change a tire. Good luck. And I don't mean IN THEORY, show me one who has actually done it!


Me, and me.

I've also replaced the alternator, various belts, and the driver's side (power) window, not to mention all the smaller car maintenance stuff I've done like changing my own oil, replacing my brake pads, and replacing a worn-out electrical relay.

I'm also getting a PhD in physics.


(forgot what I was going to say here...)


Andulamb: When she talks, are you listening to what she's saying or merely rehearsing your next line?

I'll give you three guesses.

Trick question. The real answer is: I'm staring at her boobs.



And there we go.

Man, I am really failing at Fark tonight.
 
2012-09-14 01:37:14 AM  

Gawdzila: doloresonthedottedline: In theory. But see, here's the thing. In real life I've never been outspoken about my beliefs in a way that was anything but earnestly trying to get people to understand that I'm not insulting them or threatening them

One problem is that the word "mansplain" itself, on its very face, sounds so condescending to people who might otherwise agree with you that it doesn't even matter if you try to convince them that you're not being insulting, you're going to get backlash. It's like calling a girl a bimbo and then insisting that you weren't trying to be rude. I know why the word exists, my mom was an academic feminist, and I still think that the word itself is both useless (in that it is very easily supplanted by other more common words) and counterproductive (in that it sets otherwise agreeable people on the defensive). TBH it seems mostly like a word that feminists use to complain about men than a word that is useful in any rhetorical fashion.


It is just something used to vent and commiserate, nothing more. It's only on Jezebel for controversy and page views.

I've never use the word in real life except to explain to my boyfriend what it means (he's unbelievably feminist somehow on his own without knowing any of the terms--"mansplaining" is something he's ranted about on his own without knowing the word). Don't think I've ever used it online.
 
2012-09-14 01:40:00 AM  
Receptionist: How do you write women so well?
Melvin Udall: Easy. I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.
 
2012-09-14 01:41:45 AM  
Euclidean geometry. Parabolic geometry. Hyperbolic geometry. Projective geometry. Differential geometry. Algebra. Limits, continuity, differentiation, integration. Physical chemistry. Organic chemistry. Biochemistry. Classical mechanics. The indeterminacy principle. The wave equation. The Parthenon. The Anabasis. Air conditioning. Number theory. Romanesque architecture. Gothic architecture. Information theory. Entropy. Enthalpy. Almost every symphony ever written. Pierre Auguste Renoir. The twelve-tone scale. The mathematics behind it, twelfth root of two and all that. S-p hybrid bonding orbitals. The Bohr-Sommerfeld atom. The purine-pyrimidine structure of the DNA ladder. Single-sideband radio. All other radio. Dentistry. The internal-combustion engine. Turbojets. Turbofans. Doppler beam-sharpening. Penicillin. Airplanes. Surgery. The mammogram. The Pill. The condom. Polio vaccine. The integrated circuit. The computer. Football. Computational fluid dynamics. Tensors. The Constitution. Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, Homer, Hesiod. Glass. Rubber. Nylon. Roads. Buildings. Elvis. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. (OK, those are nerve agents, and maybe we didn't really need them.) Silicone. The automobile. Really weird stuff, like clathrates, Buckyballs, and rotaxanes. The Bible. Bug spray. Diffie-Hellman, public-key cryptography, and RSA. Et cetera.

Yup, that's what men did. We don't need to explain it, you use it every day. This "word" is worthless.
 
2012-09-14 01:41:50 AM  
From now on, I think I'm going to boy-cott Jezebel.

Ba dum tssh
 
2012-09-14 01:43:57 AM  

FizixJunkee: I'm also getting a PhD in physics.


I like you already.
 
2012-09-14 01:44:57 AM  
@ZipSplat

I ignored you earlier and only saw your screenshot of IBTP by chance, but, I think you might need to update Firefox? The website works fine on my iPad. The blogger uses a Mac and iPad, I think, so it might be that, but.
 
2012-09-14 01:48:10 AM  

rohar: Yup, that's what men did. We don't need to explain it, you use it every day. This "word" is worthless.


That's right! You're a MAN who discovered the WHEEL and built the EIFFEL TOWER out of METAL and BRAWN! That's what kind of MAN you are! They're just WOMEN with SMALL BRAINS, with brains a THIRD the size of OURS! It's SCIENCE!
 
2012-09-14 01:51:48 AM  

Olympic Trolling Judge: rohar: Yup, that's what men did. We don't need to explain it, you use it every day. This "word" is worthless.

That's right! You're a MAN who discovered the WHEEL and built the EIFFEL TOWER out of METAL and BRAWN! That's what kind of MAN you are! They're just WOMEN with SMALL BRAINS, with brains a THIRD the size of OURS! It's SCIENCE!


Sadly no, I just wrote a bunch of math that allows computers to understand the context of the content of a video so when you search for the "ow my balls" video on the internet, you get the right one rather than a video where someone commented "ow my balls" in the comment section. Yeah, I know, not earth changing, but it turns out our strongest audience is WOMEN between the ages of 20 and 40. I swear, no matter how much easier we guys make life, we're catching shiat from some woman for doing it.
 
2012-09-14 01:54:34 AM  

rohar: Yup, that's what men did.


To be fair, women were handicapped by ages upon ages of not having access to the universities and teachers that the men who invented many of those things did, and even when they did have access, were heavily discouraged from it.
 
2012-09-14 01:56:50 AM  

FishyFred: That's what this whole mansplaining thing is about. If you treat them like idiots who don't fully understand issues


But they don't.
 
2012-09-14 01:58:46 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: It's only on Jezebel for controversy and page views.


Lol, well I guess it works for that purpose.
 
2012-09-14 02:02:26 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: I went through a phase where I read a ton of feminist blogs, but that lined up with the start of the 2008 primaries, and between the misogyny directed toward Hillary from Obama-loving "feminists" and the later misogyny directed toward Palin (plenty of valid reasons to hate her outside of gender), my reading list was whittled down to a few blogs like I Blame the Patriarchy, Echidne of the Snakes, Anglachel, Elizabiatchez, etc.
And most of them have become significantly less active for probably the same reason that I started avoiding most feminist websites.


I read Twisty from time to time because she writes well, and she is honest about her blaming. I often if not mostly disagree with her, but I find her a lot more intellectually honest than most of her sisters.

I actually agree with you 1000% on what happened with Hillary vs. Obama AND about reasons why to dislike Palin.

I generally identify as liberal, but I am very annoyed with liberals somehow thinking "we" have a natural monopoly on women, gays, people of color, and that any Republican woman, gay, or person of color is somehow irrational, stupid, or a self-loathing traitor. I think it would be very good for "us" to lose some of these communities in part or whole.

And yeah, most of my feelings in this direction may not have occurred until after a disastrous divorce that has left me with very alienated kids, and seemingly a very liberal internet that blames me for it all.

Regarding the "nice guy" stuff up above, I basically was saying it sounds like your behavior was completely reasonable and described as nice. In the feminist world, often, men who have similar behavior are described as passive aggressive, wimpy and not willing to take responsibility for their desires, are said to make assumptions that a quid pro quo for being nice is expected sex. A lot of that "theory" was developed to answer the question in feminist circles of "why feminists like to date abusers" the answer actually being that for feminist a bad boy abusive abuser is actually more honest to a feminist and willing to be clear about his horrible male desires. In some ways it's appalling, in some ways funny, and in some ways, well, true, but way over the top now, just like mansplaining is. Basically I was saying your behavior of being nice and then finding out other people are not nice in return, is somewhat similar to how feminists put down the nice guy. It's not that you're nice in these forums, it's that you're passive aggressive and wimpy and then blaming of others when they don't respond as you expect and demand them to. That would be the case if you were a nice guy. (See also feminist critique of Taylor Swift's girl next door song). Since you are a woman, the feminist reason for how you are treated is because men are assholes forums filled with mansplainers and abusers and a safe space is needed where misogynists will be banned.

Anyway, enough of my mansplaining this.

Well, this got long.
 
2012-09-14 02:04:32 AM  

ZombiesYall: doglover: ZombiesYall: The only time the term occurs to me is if a man tells me how I should feel about a feminist issue. Stupid example (but one that shouldn't cause an argument): I hate the movie Death Proof, but several male friends tell me I'm wrong for not liking it, because "it's a feminist movie." To me, mansplaining is the equivalent of me, a white person, telling a non-white person how to feel about racism in America. The article is offensive, however, in a trolltastic way, and makes Jezebel look like a typical vapid ladymag except biatchier.

"biatchier" (be-shi-AY) sounds like a French word for a periodical of complaints from local townsfolk.

Good point. You could go by that logic and make it a person who complains as well, like a barbier cuts hair.


But the biatchier would be popular, like a new Team Four Star episode.
 
2012-09-14 02:09:35 AM  
This is a very well done video that will make sense and be funny only to the very small group of people that know or care about the great Atheism Plus split (aka the People's Front of PZ Myers)

Link
 
2012-09-14 02:11:27 AM  

RoyBatty: doloresonthedottedline: I went through a phase where I read a ton of feminist blogs, but that lined up with the start of the 2008 primaries, and between the misogyny directed toward Hillary from Obama-loving "feminists" and the later misogyny directed toward Palin (plenty of valid reasons to hate her outside of gender), my reading list was whittled down to a few blogs like I Blame the Patriarchy, Echidne of the Snakes, Anglachel, Elizabiatchez, etc.
And most of them have become significantly less active for probably the same reason that I started avoiding most feminist websites.

I read Twisty from time to time because she writes well, and she is honest about her blaming. I often if not mostly disagree with her, but I find her a lot more intellectually honest than most of her sisters.

I actually agree with you 1000% on what happened with Hillary vs. Obama AND about reasons why to dislike Palin.

I generally identify as liberal, but I am very annoyed with liberals somehow thinking "we" have a natural monopoly on women, gays, people of color, and that any Republican woman, gay, or person of color is somehow irrational, stupid, or a self-loathing traitor. I think it would be very good for "us" to lose some of these communities in part or whole.

And yeah, most of my feelings in this direction may not have occurred until after a disastrous divorce that has left me with very alienated kids, and seemingly a very liberal internet that blames me for it all.

Regarding the "nice guy" stuff up above, I basically was saying it sounds like your behavior was completely reasonable and described as nice. In the feminist world, often, men who have similar behavior are described as passive aggressive, wimpy and not willing to take responsibility for their desires, are said to make assumptions that a quid pro quo for being nice is expected sex. A lot of that "theory" was developed to answer the question in feminist circles of "why feminists like to date abusers" the answer actually being that for feminist a bad boy abusive abuser is actually more honest to a feminist and willing to be clear about his horrible male desires. In some ways it's appalling, in some ways funny, and in some ways, well, true, but way over the top now, just like mansplaining is. Basically I was saying your behavior of being nice and then finding out other people are not nice in return, is somewhat similar to how feminists put down the nice guy. It's not that you're nice in these forums, it's that you're passive aggressive and wimpy and then blaming of others when they don't respond as you expect and demand them to. That would be the case if you were a nice guy. (See also feminist critique of Taylor Swift's girl next door song). Since you are a woman, the feminist reason for how you are treated is because men are assholes forums filled with mansplainers and abusers and a safe space is needed where misogynists will be banned.

Anyway, enough of my mansplaining this.

Well, this got long.


Haha, I found it interesting!

I always thought of nice guys as the brooding types who go around wailing "BUT IM SO NICE WHY DON'T GIRLS LIKE ME" while thinking that relationships are like customer rewards programs--after a certain amount of niceness, they can cash it in for sex and/or a relationship. Or the types who only ever befriend girls who are clearly not interested but think if they're just good enough they'll earn the girl's affection, and then post on their LiveJournals about how all women are biatches when the girl dates some "jerk." I know a lot of guys get confused by how that term is used, and I guess there are various ways people mean the (negative) term "nice guy."

I always just assumed feminists dated shiatty guys because the pickins are slim (that goes for both sides--I don't have that many female friends either). Although I did once date a total raging asshole who I was super attracte to because I hoped he his misogyny would carry over into bed and I'm a masochist, but, alas, that was the one and only context where he was sweet and not a douche (no pun intended). Which is still a mystery.

Anyway, never thought of "nice guy" as being related to that. Interesting idea, though.
 
2012-09-14 02:13:06 AM  

Lsherm: Ignored "Lsherm". If you want to completely hide ignored user comments, change the "Show header of ignored comments" option in your user profile.


Your sarcasm/humor meter has reached the end of its useful life. Most folks are upgrading to digital models now.
/You might find some kindred spirits at the Primitive (Predestinarian) Baptist Church down the road. They have all the even-handed, cheerful, tolerant
qualities you do.
//Now get out there and make the world a place of sunshine, lollipops and rain bows (You're well on your way!)
 
2012-09-14 02:15:39 AM  

doloresonthedottedline: only context where he was sweet and not a douche (no pun intended)


Oh no! That would indeed be pretty terrible. :(
 
2012-09-14 02:16:23 AM  

RoyBatty: This is a very well done video that will make sense and be funny only to the very small group of people that know or care about the great Atheism Plus split (aka the People's Front of PZ Myers)

Link


PZ Myers is involved with Atheism Plus?

That's all I need to hear about it. He's a complete joke.
 
2012-09-14 02:16:33 AM  
In every women's studies class I ever took, there was an obnoxious right-wing conservative man who signed up for the class supposedly to "provide an alternate viewpoint" or to "play devil's advocate." Maybe they thought they would see topless lesbians making out, I don't know. The thing is, a lot of the world outside those classrooms already was that guy's viewpoint, and damn if we hadn't already heard it, so why he needed to deliver it to us as an "alternative" was beyond me. I think those are the types of guys that the feminist forums don't want to hear from.
 
2012-09-14 02:19:02 AM  

mesmer242: Oh man, I totally know some elderly people who do this, but it's less about gender and more about them being old and be terrified that if they don't pass down the crucial information on how to best shop for a used car that the knowledge will be erased from the earth when they die. I'd like a clever word for that phenomenon, but sadly, it's just not as hip as mansplaining is.


Senexplaining?

/got nothin'
 
2012-09-14 02:20:26 AM  

ZombiesYall: In every women's studies class I ever took, there was an obnoxious right-wing conservative man who signed up for the class supposedly to "provide an alternate viewpoint" or to "play devil's advocate." Maybe they thought they would see topless lesbians making out, I don't know. The thing is, a lot of the world outside those classrooms already was that guy's viewpoint, and damn if we hadn't already heard it, so why he needed to deliver it to us as an "alternative" was beyond me. I think those are the types of guys that the feminist forums don't want to hear from.


And it wasn't the same guy signing up for all the classes, I just mean there's always one.
 
2012-09-14 02:26:47 AM  
'STFU' he 'mansplained' to her.
 
2012-09-14 02:29:54 AM  

Apos: What an asinine synonym for male patronization.


Everything's a portmanteau these days. Very overused.

/makes me long for the days of the chimpmanzee.
 
2012-09-14 02:32:20 AM  

ZombiesYall: In every women's studies class I ever took, there was an obnoxious right-wing conservative man who signed up for the class supposedly to "provide an alternate viewpoint" or to "play devil's advocate." Maybe they thought they would see topless lesbians making out, I don't know. The thing is, a lot of the world outside those classrooms already was that guy's viewpoint, and damn if we hadn't already heard it, so why he needed to deliver it to us as an "alternative" was beyond me. I think those are the types of guys that the feminist forums don't want to hear from.


Sorry to hear it. I just wonder what the hell compels people like that to step into feminist turf. Like a creationist walking into a biology class.

/I showed sympathy. Now you have to sleep with me.
 
2012-09-14 02:37:44 AM  

rat_creature: mesmer242: Oh man, I totally know some elderly people who do this, but it's less about gender and more about them being old and be terrified that if they don't pass down the crucial information on how to best shop for a used car that the knowledge will be erased from the earth when they die. I'd like a clever word for that phenomenon, but sadly, it's just not as hip as mansplaining is.

Senexplaining?

/got nothin'


Cloudsplaining.
 
2012-09-14 02:39:00 AM  
So this is the problem I have with some modern Internet feminists (a subset of third-wave feminists), and to an extent with a portion of the entire social-justice movement as it's existed for the last decade or so:

There has developed a kind of insularity -- a clique that has a certain set of terms they insist be used, with meanings they insist be defined exactly as they wish. For made-up terms, this is not so bad -- nobody knows what "cisgendered" or "kyriarchy" mean the first time they see them; you have to look them up and then you find out. They were invented by specific people who gave them specific meaning. But there are some terms that get sticky, like "privilege". I know what they mean by it, and I'm on board with the concept that they mean -- but the word "privilege" itself had a pre-existing meaning of "something granted by the will of another party".

Us white guys have certain advantages in society, whether we or anybody else particularly wants it that way. But the insistence of the most vocal segment of the social-justice crowd on using the term "privilege" to describe that phenomenon inevitably derails the conversation when some white guy (focusing on the mechanism implied by the word, rather than the result) reacts to it by saying "Nobody ever gave me anything just because I was white/male!"

So, take the made-up terms and the terms appropriated from their common meaning to a specific meaning they don't quite fit into, add in the insistence on using those appropriated terms in exactly the approved way and no other, some outright othering language like using "ally" to describe others riding the social-justice train in this way (if you're not an ally, what are you?), and the tendency to describe any questioning of the accepted doctrine and terminology as "derailing", and what you get feels very Newspeak. And the part that really creeps me out is, nobody is imposing this on them -- it is entirely self-imposed and rigidly enforced by the group. Dissent is absolutely not tolerated.

For a long time I thought maybe this was just my deep-seated white-guy not-getting-it making me feel this way, and then I found this essay. So it's not just me -- women who describe themselves as feminists can and do feel as though there's something fundamentally cult-like going on.
 
2012-09-14 02:46:17 AM  

Olympic Trolling Judge: ZombiesYall: In every women's studies class I ever took, there was an obnoxious right-wing conservative man who signed up for the class supposedly to "provide an alternate viewpoint" or to "play devil's advocate." Maybe they thought they would see topless lesbians making out, I don't know. The thing is, a lot of the world outside those classrooms already was that guy's viewpoint, and damn if we hadn't already heard it, so why he needed to deliver it to us as an "alternative" was beyond me. I think those are the types of guys that the feminist forums don't want to hear from.

Sorry to hear it. I just wonder what the hell compels people like that to step into feminist turf. Like a creationist walking into a biology class.

/I showed sympathy. Now you have to sleep with me.


It is like pulling the hair of the young lass in front of you.

/They haven't grown emotionally since the 3rd grade.
 
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