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(Mother Nature Network)   Scientists say virgin births occur regularly in the wild, Bethlehem   (mnn.com) divider line 48
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8306 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2012 at 4:06 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-13 02:49:29 AM  
It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't clones.
 
2012-09-13 03:03:49 AM  
It also happened once with a cat. Some day Cloister the Stupid will lead them back to Fuchal.
 
2012-09-13 03:04:00 AM  

simplicimus: It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't female clones.


/dont make me bust out semencaust.jpg
 
2012-09-13 03:05:03 AM  

urban.derelict: simplicimus: It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't female clones.

/dont make me bust out semencaust.jpg


I sit corrected.
 
2012-09-13 03:28:17 AM  
Wait until they find out in certain species females can turn into males?

/I learned this from Jurassic Park
//And from being in the aquarium hobby
 
2012-09-13 03:32:46 AM  

ShawnDoc: Wait until they find out in certain species females can turn into males?

/I learned this from Jurassic Park
//And from being in the aquarium hobby


I've heard it happens in certain amphibians.
 
2012-09-13 03:53:55 AM  

simplicimus: I've heard it happens in certain amphibians.


It's called sequential hermaphroditism

Clownfish are the most well known thanks to Finding Nemo.
 
2012-09-13 04:09:57 AM  
The weird thing is that it's only happened once in humans. Jesus.
 
2012-09-13 04:16:31 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
Life will find a way.
 
2012-09-13 04:18:03 AM  
They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW. When a female reproduces parthenogenetically, about half of her eggs will be allocated a Z and half will be allocated a W. After (presumably) mitosis, you're left with ZZ and WW embryos. The WW all die, and the ZZs all develop, so you get a litter of all males.

Theoretically, if one female invades an area with no males, she could create her own, which could then mate. The resulting population would likely persist for a few generations (which in snakes/lizard, could be a few centuries since some can live 20-40 years), but could become horribly inbred unless it was re-invaded by unrelated individuals.
 
2012-09-13 04:19:15 AM  
IF humans were parthenogenetic, on the other hand, then Jesus would have been a woman. XX females can't produce XY males de novo
 
2012-09-13 04:26:26 AM  

simplicimus: It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't clones.


It actually explains why they aren't clones. They speculate that the way that this happens is two 'egg' cells (I'll use that for easier understanding, not sure what they would be) fuse together to create one whole fertilized cell that starts to grow. The chance of two egg cells carrying completely different sets of chromosomes is exceedingly slim. It is very likely there are a number of pairs of identical chromosomes in the offspring. I'd imagine the one parent children are probably at far higher risk of birth defects.
 
2012-09-13 04:30:05 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: The weird thing is that it's only happened once in humans. Jesus.


Wild claims require strong evidence.
The burden of proof lies with the person making (or repeating) the claim.

Occam's razor:
A. A sky man impregnated (ignoring the marriage she was in) impregnated a woman with HIMSELF, so she could birth him so he could be crucified, call out in agony to himself, die, resurrect and ascend to be seated at the right side of himself (remember....Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC... O_o ).
-OR-
B. A woman (in a society that STONES TO DEATH infidelity) had an affair, and her husband either loved her enough to not want her to be killed for it (and also take on the dishonor of her cheating) or.. was just as gullible as everyone else.

.... Seriously....
Ask yourself how stupid you want to look when you SERIOUSLY answer which is more likely.
 
2012-09-13 04:36:18 AM  
http://www.fark.com/comments/7322600/
 
2012-09-13 04:37:42 AM  

2 Replies: AverageAmericanGuy: The weird thing is that it's only happened once in humans. Jesus.

Wild claims require strong evidence.
The burden of proof lies with the person making (or repeating) the claim.

Occam's razor:
A. A sky man impregnated (ignoring the marriage she was in) impregnated a woman with HIMSELF, so she could birth him so he could be crucified, call out in agony to himself, die, resurrect and ascend to be seated at the right side of himself (remember....Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC... O_o ).
-OR-
B. A woman (in a society that STONES TO DEATH infidelity) had an affair, and her husband either loved her enough to not want her to be killed for it (and also take on the dishonor of her cheating) or.. was just as gullible as everyone else.

.... Seriously....
Ask yourself how stupid you want to look when you SERIOUSLY answer which is more likely.


Jesus is not the first case in which a virgin birth was claimed. Mithra among many others, also is claimed to have been born in a virgin birth. This sort of thing may actually happen on occasion, although it is unlikely the stories/myths are actually true. Still, the article does add some interesting intrigue to these old stories: maybe there is truth underneath the underneath.
 
2012-09-13 04:38:05 AM  
images.tvrage.com
You ARE the father... and the mother.
 
2012-09-13 04:39:17 AM  

2 Replies: (remember....Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC... O_o ).

Maybe your Christianity. Mine has a tripartite God and multiple demi-gods (saints).
 
2012-09-13 04:40:16 AM  

2 Replies: AverageAmericanGuy: The weird thing is that it's only happened once in humans. Jesus.

Wild claims require strong evidence.
The burden of proof lies with the person making (or repeating) the claim.

Occam's razor:
A. A sky man impregnated (ignoring the marriage she was in) impregnated a woman with HIMSELF, so she could birth him so he could be crucified, call out in agony to himself, die, resurrect and ascend to be seated at the right side of himself (remember....Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC... O_o ).
-OR-
B. A woman (in a society that STONES TO DEATH infidelity) had an affair, and her husband either loved her enough to not want her to be killed for it (and also take on the dishonor of her cheating) or.. was just as gullible as everyone else.

.... Seriously....
Ask yourself how stupid you want to look when you SERIOUSLY answer which is more likely.


-OR-
C. It's all a bunch of made up bs.
 
2012-09-13 05:18:46 AM  
So asexual reproduction. All the babies have only mommy's DNA. Then mommy would possibly mate with the newly created males. So I suppose the third and therefore Nth generation will still only have Mom's DNA. bizarre.
 
2012-09-13 05:20:07 AM  
all these wonderful things that exist in nature make me angry for people who cannot accept anything but heterosexuality among people. to deny facts is to live a fool.
 
2012-09-13 05:27:06 AM  

KrispyKritter: all these wonderful things that exist in nature make me angry for people who cannot accept anything but heterosexuality among people. to deny facts is to live a fool.


As I have previously stated, there's a lot of things I don't understand, but will respect. Homosexuality, transgendering, and going to strip clubs are on the list.
 
2012-09-13 05:32:51 AM  

juvandy: They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW. When a female reproduces parthenogenetically, about half of her eggs will be allocated a Z and half will be allocated a W. After (presumably) mitosis, you're left with ZZ and WW embryos. The WW all die, and the ZZs all develop, so you get a litter of all males.

Theoretically, if one female invades an area with no males, she could create her own, which could then mate. The resulting population would likely persist for a few generations (which in snakes/lizard, could be a few centuries since some can live 20-40 years), but could become horribly inbred unless it was re-invaded by unrelated individuals.


That's very interesting. Would the inbred rattlesnakes gain the ability to play creepy songs on their banjos?
 
2012-09-13 05:35:58 AM  

autopsybeverage: juvandy: They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW. When a female reproduces parthenogenetically, about half of her eggs will be allocated a Z and half will be allocated a W. After (presumably) mitosis, you're left with ZZ and WW embryos. The WW all die, and the ZZs all develop, so you get a litter of all males.

Theoretically, if one female invades an area with no males, she could create her own, which could then mate. The resulting population would likely persist for a few generations (which in snakes/lizard, could be a few centuries since some can live 20-40 years), but could become horribly inbred unless it was re-invaded by unrelated individuals.

That's very interesting. Would the inbred rattlesnakes gain the ability to play creepy songs on their banjos?


Well, only if their vestigial limbs were to externalize.
 
2012-09-13 05:39:43 AM  
Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).
 
2012-09-13 05:44:08 AM  

LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).


A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.
 
2012-09-13 05:46:32 AM  

simplicimus: LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).

A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.


I've heard about this happening.

Link
 
2012-09-13 05:48:25 AM  

simplicimus: LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).

A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.


Actually, I hadn't though of that; is another cool possibility.
I was just meaning that the female may have mated or given birth in the past (no longer a virgin), but then in a non-related event popped out a miracle baby without any genetic help from other sources.
 
2012-09-13 05:51:34 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: simplicimus: LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).

A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.

I've heard about this happening.

Link


And this is why I have you favourited, even though that article makes me all angry.
 
2012-09-13 06:02:32 AM  

juvandy: They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW.


Their chromosomes must look all kinds of farked up. Or did we just run out of descriptive letters?
 
2012-09-13 06:09:40 AM  
THAT explains this.
img195.imageshack.us
 
2012-09-13 07:40:29 AM  

LiberalConservative: AverageAmericanGuy: simplicimus: LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).

A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.

I've heard about this happening.

Link

And this is why I have you favourited, even though that article makes me all angry.


I thought for sure it was going to be something about Monica Lewinsky's blue dress, and was a bit disappointed...
 
2012-09-13 07:44:55 AM  

Ruiizu: Mithra among many others, also is claimed to have been born in a virgin birth.


Actually, that's not *QUITE* true. Thanks to the twin fairies, we have a pretty good understanding of Mithra's life cycle, and while it's true that Mithra can fertilizer her own egg, I wouldn't exactly call that "virgin birth", because Mithra follows the typical life cycle of smaller representatives of her species.
 
2012-09-13 07:49:29 AM  

juvandy: They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW. When a female reproduces parthenogenetically, about half of her eggs will be allocated a Z and half will be allocated a W. After (presumably) mitosis, you're left with ZZ and WW embryos. The WW all die, and the ZZs all develop, so you get a litter of all males.


Wouldn't ZW/WZ females be a possibility? Or is it that the egg cells replicate their DNA, then 'bud' off half of it?

From what I remember of human sex cell reproduction, a normal mitosis still happens - the DNA replicates, the cell splits in half, with half the DNA in each cell. Then it duplicates again, this time with only half pairs in each cell. This split is more or less even for what will become sperm cells, it's highly lopsided for egg cells(IE the DNA is discarded in the smaller cell; which is by no means large enough to be viable).

So for this form of 'no male' birth to work as you describe, the egg cell would only divide once - double the DNA, toss half the matching pairs. Results could be clone or different combinations, though I'm still trying to picture the mechanism for 'all males' in my head. Oh - that's it - the cell divides, tossing half it's DNA(it's now haploid). Then, rather than being fertilized, the remaining DNA is duplicated. Not ideal, it'd be automatically extremely 'inbred', but I think that reptiles are more resistant to this anyways.
 
2012-09-13 08:31:31 AM  
Not ideal, it'd be automatically extremely 'inbred', but I think that reptiles are more resistant to this anyways.

The F1 generation wouldn't necessarily be inbred, it would just be the male form of whatever recombined maternal DNA happened to end up in the egg. Inbreeding, and potential inbreeding depression, would be much more likely once the males mated back with the mother, or in subsequent generations without introgression of novel genotypes. As long as the phenotype coded by the maternal DNA was not deleterious (or was plastic) in the current environment, subsequent generations should be able to survive until they start having deleterious effects of inbreeding itself (eg, 6-fingered amish, etc.).
 
2012-09-13 09:11:29 AM  
It's like a Christmas Miracle!
 
2012-09-13 10:10:13 AM  

farkingismybusiness: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 470x572]
Life will find a way.


I still can't believe that guy schtupped Geena Davis.

www.newsgab.com

They must have needed a special bed in a reinforced bedroom.
 
2012-09-13 10:15:58 AM  

simplicimus: urban.derelict: simplicimus: It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't female clones.

/dont make me bust out semencaust.jpg

I sit corrected.


Mother: X1X2

Potential children: X1X1 X2X2 X1X2
 
2012-09-13 10:42:52 AM  

simplicimus: It is beyond my humble understanding of genetics to see how these offspring aren't clones.


I guess you could say
I'm really beside myself
 
2012-09-13 11:16:46 AM  

foxyshadis: juvandy: They're not female because the snakes and lizards that have been shown to do this have different sex chromosomes from mammals. Males are ZZ, and females are ZW.

Their chromosomes must look all kinds of farked up. Or did we just run out of descriptive letters?


Just different systems. Their sex chromosomes aren;t directly equivalent to mammalian ones so we don't call them X and Y. As for the sex of the offspring, it depends on exactly what meiotic pathway and when the fusion event occurs. In reptiles (and other snakes) that have been shown to do this both male and female offspring are possible, depending on the exact mechanism at work. Which mechanism is used also determines whether offspring are full or partial clones of the mother.
 
2012-09-13 12:00:06 PM  
You know, I'm kinda glad as a guy this can't happen to me.

/and the rest of you should be too.
 
2012-09-13 12:57:57 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: simplicimus: LiberalConservative: Calling this "virgin birth" could be misleading. While copulation may not have taken place, the mother may have mated in the past (i.e. is not a virgin).

A good point. I think, among certain species, the female can preserve male genetic material for quite some time.

I've heard about this happening.

Link


Oh, God. They can get pregnant that way.
 
2012-09-13 01:07:17 PM  
I read that something like one turkey in ten is the result of parthenogenesis. That's a lot of white meat!

Mind you, turkeys are so stupid that they often have to be shown how to mate, so being able to reproduce parthenogentically would be a major asset, evolution-wise, and might even be necessary to the survival of the species.

Birds and reptiles seem to be most prone to this form of reproduction. It's very rare or unknown in mammals, which mostly don't lay eggs. In placental mammals, it is likely to be even rarer than marsupials and egg-laying mammals (the platypus and co.). Perhaps in a placental mammal the body is more likely to reject the egg that begins to divide on its own as a tumor--the mammalian system of reproduction seems to have more safeguards and to be more likely to reject the fetus as a foreign body.

It is not possible to preclude true virgin birth, even in mammals, but is seems to be very improbable, while with snakes and chickens it is far from it. Given the high rate of parthenogensis in turkeys and other poultry, there's a good chance you have eaten a bird with no father or fertile eggs that have never known a, er, rooster.

Meh. Nature is a bricoleuse, a botcher, a cobbler-together of Rube Goldberg devices. Simplicity and logic and order often come after, not before, complexity. At some point or other it took the whole universe to make the raw ingredients of Life, and then the whole Earth, with its oceans, volcanoes, atmosphere, and geology, to assemble the simplest proto-cell. At some point, the world's oceans may have been a single cell, doing the work of a cell on the outside, not the inside, of tiny bubbles of hydrophobic lipids and water.

If you have ever read the Illuminatus!Trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea you know what I mean: Leviathan and Behemoth--two different kinds of life, the one and the many. Hope that wasn't a spoiler for anybody. Forget it. You can remember it later.
 
2012-09-13 02:59:01 PM  

Valiente: farkingismybusiness: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 470x572]
Life will find a way.

I still can't believe that guy schtupped Geena Davis.

[www.newsgab.com image 850x359]

They must have needed a special bed in a reinforced bedroom.


Is that a rabbit, right next to the bush?
 
2012-09-13 03:07:03 PM  

dj_spanmaster: Valiente: farkingismybusiness: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 470x572]
Life will find a way.

I still can't believe that guy schtupped Geena Davis.

[www.newsgab.com image 850x359]

They must have needed a special bed in a reinforced bedroom.

Is that a rabbit, right next to the bush?


no thats her hands.
 
2012-09-13 03:33:30 PM  

ShawnDoc: Wait until they find out in certain species females can turn into males?

/I learned this from Jurassic Park
//And from being in the aquarium hobby


All humans start out as females. Only during gestation do some fetuses convert to male. I'd bet that that's the same for most mammals.
 
2012-09-13 06:10:44 PM  

Ruiizu: Jesus is not the first case in which a virgin birth was claimed. Mithra among many others, also is claimed to have been born in a virgin birth. This sort of thing may actually happen on occasion, although it is unlikely the stories/myths are actually true.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've long claimed to be born of a virgin if only because the alternative is just too unsettling to think about. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
2012-09-13 06:38:09 PM  

2 Replies: AverageAmericanGuy: The weird thing is that it's only happened once in humans. Jesus.

Wild claims require strong evidence.
The burden of proof lies with the person making (or repeating) the claim.

Occam's razor:
A. A sky man impregnated (ignoring the marriage she was in) impregnated a woman with HIMSELF, so she could birth him so he could be crucified, call out in agony to himself, die, resurrect and ascend to be seated at the right side of himself (remember....Christianity is MONOTHEISTIC... O_o ).
-OR-
B. A woman (in a society that STONES TO DEATH infidelity) had an affair, and her husband either loved her enough to not want her to be killed for it (and also take on the dishonor of her cheating) or.. was just as gullible as everyone else.

.... Seriously....
Ask yourself how stupid you want to look when you SERIOUSLY answer which is more likely.


C. Average American Guy was making a pun.
 
2012-09-13 09:49:03 PM  
Come on Mary, just let me rub the tip over the lips, I won't go in and you'll be okay. Nothing will happen, I promise.
 
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