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(Buzzfeed)   News: Libyans apologize for the violent actions of their fellow Muslims. Fark: With a higher typo to sign ratio than a Tea Party rally   (buzzfeed.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Libya, muslims, Libyans Apologizing, rally, U.S. Ambassador, ratios  
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13135 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Sep 2012 at 9:50 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-12 11:31:17 PM  
ninjamonkey.us
 
2012-09-12 11:32:11 PM  
This is good to see, but damn if the "profit" guy didn't make me laugh XD
 
2012-09-12 11:32:19 PM  

Girion47: Sabyen91: Girion47: Mrtraveler01: jaytkay: Lt. Cheese Weasel: jaytkay: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Instead, he apologized.

I'm sure you can prove this.

"The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims - as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy."


Obama is not "The Embassy of the United States in Cairo"

Seriously, I am not kidding. You should look it up.

That's just what the libtarded libstream libia wants you to lib.

I wish libertarians controlled the media.

It is called local news.

The local news in DC makes MSNBC look right wing.


Probably because they support the DC establishment.

/Is the Fox station there (WTTG) like that too
 
2012-09-12 11:32:43 PM  

bojon: Totes not staged......


Eh, if anything was faked, it was who was responsible for the hit on the embassy.
 
2012-09-12 11:32:46 PM  

Kit Fister: Because teabaggers are all dumb, ignorant folks worthy of endless derision and scorn


Well said!
 
2012-09-12 11:36:19 PM  

Girion47: I wish libertarians controlled the media.


Here you go, ask your cable company to add this to your channel lineup:

www.arabictvnetwork.com
 
2012-09-12 11:36:19 PM  
This was rather touching.

The article and pics, not this thread.
 
2012-09-12 11:36:26 PM  

lawboy87: Stop IT, STOP IT, just STOP IT!!!!!

The attacks on the Consulate in Libya had nothing to do with the farking movie.

They were carried out by an affiliate of al qaeda doing business in Libya, in retaliation for the death of a guy known by his alias as "al-Libi" (The Libyan). He was blown sky high by some hellfires fired by a US operated drone in Pakistan back in June.

Al Zawahari (the leader of al qaeda, now OBL is dead) announced in a 45 minute video, released prior to the attacks that al qaeda was going to use the anniversary of 9/11 to try and extract some vengeance for al-Libi's death.

This wasn't some random event, it was planned and orchestrated. In fact, many in the crowd who were outside the consulate protesting actually fought back and attempted to help rescue the stranded American's inside. And reportedly at least 10 libyan security personnel were killed in likewise trying to repel the attack.

And for those thinking this was "staged", there was an even larger set of rallies, in numerous locations, that went on today in Tripoli. There are photos from those rallies online as well, but a bit more difficult to find than those from Benghazi.


Dude you need to relax, most of us are already aware of this. This thread just happens to be inundated with a number of silly trolls at the moment, most of whom want to rant about the Obama apology and how we should nuke all of Arabia. I imagine some of them are jealous from being out-trolled by Terry Jones and ilk.
 
2012-09-12 11:37:37 PM  
The Sorry Project - Facebook

Link 

It's not as lame as it sounds. There's more pictures and messages in English from Libyans. My faith in humanity has been greatly restored.

In a related note, I'll post again, that Ezra Klein is doing a tribute to Sean Smith (aka Vile Rat) on the ED Show in a few minutes (EST). Caught it a couple hours ago.
 
2012-09-12 11:38:17 PM  

shotglasss: bdub77: What you had was a protest of some crap instigated by Americans,

Wow, you are so far off base you'll never find your way back.

No American had anything to do with the embassy attacks, it was all done by muslims. If you want to give them cover by blaming someone else, blame Allah or Mohammed or whoever it was that tells them that this is acceptable behavior.


This is why I have you marked as: favorite: derp

American -> Nationality -> May or may not be Muslim -> a religion

/But excellent illustration of your stupidity ie, American means Not Muslim
 
2012-09-12 11:38:37 PM  

lawboy87: Stop IT, STOP IT, just STOP IT!!!!!

The attacks on the Consulate in Libya had nothing to do with the farking movie.

They were carried out by an affiliate of al qaeda doing business in Libya, in retaliation for the death of a guy known by his alias as "al-Libi" (The Libyan). He was blown sky high by some hellfires fired by a US operated drone in Pakistan back in June.

Al Zawahari (the leader of al qaeda, now OBL is dead) announced in a 45 minute video, released prior to the attacks that al qaeda was going to use the anniversary of 9/11 to try and extract some vengeance for al-Libi's death.

This wasn't some random event, it was planned and orchestrated. In fact, many in the crowd who were outside the consulate protesting actually fought back and attempted to help rescue the stranded American's inside. And reportedly at least 10 libyan security personnel were killed in likewise trying to repel the attack.

And for those thinking this was "staged", there was an even larger set of rallies, in numerous locations, that went on today in Tripoli. There are photos from those rallies online as well, but a bit more difficult to find than those from Benghazi.


Where are you getting your information? Interesting, but these incidents don't bear any of Al-Qaeda's hallmarks.
 
2012-09-12 11:41:29 PM  

bdub77: shotglasss: bdub77: What you had was a protest of some crap instigated by Americans,

Wow, you are so far off base you'll never find your way back.

No American had anything to do with the embassy attacks, it was all done by muslims. If you want to give them cover by blaming someone else, blame Allah or Mohammed or whoever it was that tells them that this is acceptable behavior.

And you are an idiot if you think that posting blasphemous material on purpose to piss off another culture in an attempt to make them hostile is acceptable behavior. Maybe you should simply look up the definition of instigate and STFU.

Violence is certainly unacceptable, but protest is acceptable. Religion in and of itself is not a bad thing, like anything it can be taken too far.


No, religion in and of itself IS a bad thing. It's a delusion used to manipulate and deceive people with magical thinking and irrational beliefs, that is inherently a bad thing as it subjugates humanity to insanity.
 
2012-09-12 11:42:22 PM  

Lehk: OnlyM3: Jerseysteve22

The Mossad is causing these riots. They know this would weaken Obama and give Romney a shot at winning. If Romney wins, he'll attack Iran and support Israel in doing so.
Oh don't be shy, just come out and say how much you hate jews. You're not alone (especially on FARK)


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444017504577645681057 4 98 266.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet/
(link to g cache to avoid paywall)

In a telephone interview Tuesday with The Wall Street Journal, a man identifying himself as Mr. Bacile said he was a 52-year-old Israeli-American real-estate developer in California who raised $5 million from 100 Jewish donors to promote the film.

He characterized the film as a political effort to call attention to the hypocrisies of Islam. It has been promoted by Terry Jones, the Florida pastor whose burning of Qurans previously saparked deadly riots around the world.
 

Sam Bacile, an Israeli-american film maker directed and produced the video
.


Update on that: The film-maker has gone missing, and evidence shows that his real name is probably not Sam Bacile, and he is probably not an Israeli.


Link

Link
 
2012-09-12 11:42:44 PM  

jaytkay: shotglasss: The Republicans have plenty of black folks among their ranks.

[media.salon.com image 460x307]
[i.i.com.com image 620x350]


That's like a bad game of "where's waldo," but there's a black chick in the lower right hand corner of the bottom picture.
 
2012-09-12 11:43:05 PM  

Karma Curmudgeon: lawboy87: Stop IT, STOP IT, just STOP IT!!!!!

The attacks on the Consulate in Libya had nothing to do with the farking movie.

They were carried out by an affiliate of al qaeda doing business in Libya, in retaliation for the death of a guy known by his alias as "al-Libi" (The Libyan). He was blown sky high by some hellfires fired by a US operated drone in Pakistan back in June.

Al Zawahari (the leader of al qaeda, now OBL is dead) announced in a 45 minute video, released prior to the attacks that al qaeda was going to use the anniversary of 9/11 to try and extract some vengeance for al-Libi's death.

This wasn't some random event, it was planned and orchestrated. In fact, many in the crowd who were outside the consulate protesting actually fought back and attempted to help rescue the stranded American's inside. And reportedly at least 10 libyan security personnel were killed in likewise trying to repel the attack.

And for those thinking this was "staged", there was an even larger set of rallies, in numerous locations, that went on today in Tripoli. There are photos from those rallies online as well, but a bit more difficult to find than those from Benghazi.

Where are you getting your information? Interesting, but these incidents don't bear any of Al-Qaeda's hallmarks.


I have heard the possibility (I don't think anything has been confirmed about anything at this point), I am curious why you say it doesn't bear al qaeda hallmarks. I am not sure I would recognize their hallmarks.

/Not busting your balls, I am wondering if I am missing something.
 
2012-09-12 11:43:16 PM  
s9.postimage.org
s9.postimage.org
s9.postimage.org
 
2012-09-12 11:44:08 PM  

jaytkay: shotglasss: The Republicans have plenty of black folks among their ranks.

[media.salon.com image 460x307]
[i.i.com.com image 620x350]


at least I think it's a chick. Might be lootie, not sure.
 
2012-09-12 11:44:16 PM  

walkerhound: jaytkay: shotglasss: The Republicans have plenty of black folks among their ranks.

[media.salon.com image 460x307]
[i.i.com.com image 620x350]

That's like a bad game of "where's waldo," but there's a black chick in the lower right hand corner of the bottom picture.


I honestly couldn't tell the color of anybody in that picture but Obama. Most of them were just tiny dots.
 
2012-09-12 11:46:59 PM  
It is heartwarming to see average LIbyans supporting peace and not violence. Thanks to God for that.

Even if they were encouraged to do it, they are still taking a HUGE risk.

Thanks to you, sane Libyans, dare I say you are most likely the large majority and unfortunately the violent minority gets all the press.

Let's not make this a war.
 
2012-09-12 11:48:08 PM  

Karma Curmudgeon: lawboy87: Stop IT, STOP IT, just STOP IT!!!!!

The attacks on the Consulate in Libya had nothing to do with the farking movie.

They were carried out by an affiliate of al qaeda doing business in Libya, in retaliation for the death of a guy known by his alias as "al-Libi" (The Libyan).
He was blown sky high by some hellfires fired by a US operated drone in Pakistan back in June.

Al Zawahari (the leader of al qaeda, now OBL is dead) announced in a 45 minute video, released prior to the attacks that al qaeda was going to use the anniversary of 9/11 to try and extract some vengeance for al-Libi's death.

This wasn't some random event, it was planned and orchestrated. In fact, many in the crowd who were outside the consulate protesting actually fought back and attempted to help rescue the stranded American's inside. And reportedly at least 10 libyan security personnel were killed in likewise trying to repel the attack.

And for those thinking this was "staged", there was an even larger set of rallies, in numerous locations, that went on today in Tripoli. There are photos from those rallies online as well, but a bit more difficult to find than those from Benghazi.

Where are you getting your information? Interesting, but these incidents don't bear any of Al-Qaeda's hallmarks.


You might find this interesting.
 
2012-09-12 11:48:23 PM  

GAT_00: That's more of an apology than I've ever seen for Christian Talibangelicals from the Christians who supposedly don't agree with them yet never speak against them.


In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, "Come again?"
 
2012-09-12 11:48:52 PM  

jaytkay: Ready-set: Action>Words.

Proof, arrests, trials, convictions. That's the only way. Otherwise there will be more boots than the group of Marines already on their way over.

Hey everybody, look who's here in our thread!


I've got $5 that says that kid could drop you.

I hate violence. But this is BS.
 
2012-09-12 11:50:58 PM  

Ready-set: I've got $5 that says that kid could drop you.


Hey everybody, look who else showed up in our thread!
lh5.googleusercontent.com
 
2012-09-12 11:50:59 PM  

Sabyen91: I am not sure I would recognize their hallmarks.


From what I can gather it was just a mob scene. No suicide bombers or paramilitary units. Not timed to coincide with any other attack. Angry mob isn't really what they do.
 
2012-09-12 11:51:34 PM  

Maechyll: Thanks for finding this, subby.

It reminds me of a few days after 9/11--I saw a bunch of pictures of Palestinians crying--weeping--at what had happened to us. Very moving.


You forgot the "with joy" part. Or perhaps it was after stubbing a toe whilst dancing in the streets.

/ok I admit, I'm trolling.
 
2012-09-12 11:52:57 PM  

spacelord321: tinyarena: [seattletimes.com image 296x430]
Sir, you join a distinguished list:
Chris Stevens, Libya, 2012
Arnold L. Raphel, in Pakistan, 1988
Adolph Dubs, in Afghanistan, 1979
Francis E. Meloy Jr., in Lebanon, 1976
Rodger P. Davies, in Cyprus, 1974
Cleo A. Noel Jr., in Sudan, 1973
John Gordon Mein, in Guatemala, 1968
Laurence A. Steinhardt, in Canada, 1950

Thank you, Rest in Peace

War is hell.


As is Canada, apparently.
 
2012-09-12 11:53:31 PM  

Maechyll: It reminds me of a few days after 9/11--I saw a bunch of pictures of Palestinians crying--weeping--at what had happened to us. Very moving.


I remember the video footage of Palestinians dancing in the street and blowing their horns in celebration of the attacks. Very moving. When Yassir Arafat saw the footage, he threatened to execute anyone else who released such footage/pictures to the international press. Very moving.
 
2012-09-12 11:53:35 PM  
that I'm aware of, I should add.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: You might find this interesting.


Reading....
 
2012-09-12 11:55:44 PM  

Ready-set: jaytkay: Ready-set: Action>Words.

Proof, arrests, trials, convictions. That's the only way. Otherwise there will be more boots than the group of Marines already on their way over.

Hey everybody, look who's here in our thread!

I've got $5 that says that kid could drop you.

I hate violence. But this is BS.


You do realize the people we are referring to in this thread aren't actually responsible for arrests, trials and convictions...right?
 
2012-09-12 11:56:28 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: No, religion in and of itself IS a bad thing. It's a delusion used to manipulate and deceive people with magical thinking and irrational beliefs, that is inherently a bad thing as it subjugates humanity to insanity.


You are of course welcome to your opinion on the matter, but what exactly is your proof that atheism is any better than organized religion? The fact that people kill each other over their religious beliefs does not mean that man would not use some other form of control to do the same if religion didn't exist.

Man simply does not have all the answers, particularly when it comes to birth and death. Perhaps we do just simply not exist when we die. Perhaps not. I don't claim to have the answer certainly. Therefore I don't see any harm in examining things on a spiritual level.

I don't think being religious is the same as being insane. People don't exist in a vacuum and beliefs of all types, whether they are religious or not, influence us on a day to day basis.
 
2012-09-12 11:56:29 PM  

Girion47: Itstoearly: GAT_00: That's more of an apology than I've ever seen for Christian Talibangelicals from the Christians who supposedly don't agree with them yet never speak against them.

I've never heard an atheist apologize for Mao killing tens of millions of religious people in the name of communistic atheism.

Because atheism isn't a religion. Being atheist is being free from the shackles of mythology, not being part of a club.


So I guess all those millions of people are now "free" from their shackles.

Are you a true retard or do you play one on TV?
 
2012-09-12 11:57:32 PM  

Begoggle: OK FINE!! I'll be the one to post it.


Came for this, leaving satisfied.
 
2012-09-12 11:57:33 PM  

cc_rider: Lehk: OnlyM3: Jerseysteve22

The Mossad is causing these riots. They know this would weaken Obama and give Romney a shot at winning. If Romney wins, he'll attack Iran and support Israel in doing so.
Oh don't be shy, just come out and say how much you hate jews. You're not alone (especially on FARK)


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444017504577645681057 4 98 266.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet/
(link to g cache to avoid paywall)

In a telephone interview Tuesday with The Wall Street Journal, a man identifying himself as Mr. Bacile said he was a 52-year-old Israeli-American real-estate developer in California who raised $5 million from 100 Jewish donors to promote the film.

He characterized the film as a political effort to call attention to the hypocrisies of Islam. It has been promoted by Terry Jones, the Florida pastor whose burning of Qurans previously saparked deadly riots around the world.
 

Sam Bacile, an Israeli-american film maker directed and produced the video.

Update on that: The film-maker has gone missing, and evidence shows that his real name is probably not Sam Bacile, and he is probably not an Israeli.


Link

Link


There seems to be lots of strangeness concerning this supposed "trailer".
/Glad, I already had a tin-foil hat :/
 
2012-09-12 11:57:56 PM  

Karma Curmudgeon: Sabyen91: I am not sure I would recognize their hallmarks.

From what I can gather it was just a mob scene. No suicide bombers or paramilitary units. Not timed to coincide with any other attack. Angry mob isn't really what they do.


The fact that they died of smoke inhalation might be a strike against the al qaeda theory. I just don't think they tie themselves to one tactic, though. I am not sure what to think on who instigated what.
 
2012-09-12 11:59:00 PM  

Fark Me To Tears: Maechyll: It reminds me of a few days after 9/11--I saw a bunch of pictures of Palestinians crying--weeping--at what had happened to us. Very moving.

I remember the video footage of Palestinians dancing in the street and blowing their horns in celebration of the attacks. Very moving. When Yassir Arafat saw the footage, he threatened to execute anyone else who released such footage/pictures to the international press. Very moving.


So you ignored the parts that didn't conform to your world-view?
 
2012-09-12 11:59:06 PM  

EZ1923: AverageAmericanGuy: JerseyTim: So, umm... Here is the moderate Muslim outrage?

Yes. All 30 of them.

Forgive me if a handful of people with signs doesn't assuage the pain and anger over the Muslims murdering the ambassador yesterday.

favorited!.


This.

Religion of peace my ass.
 
2012-09-13 12:00:54 AM  

Abox: Watching Romney talk about foreign affairs (or really any issue) is like watching a closet gay guy talk about women.


Remind me again...
4 years ago today, what 'foreign affairs' experience did Obama have?
 
2012-09-13 12:01:23 AM  
As fresh as today's headlines:

farm9.staticflickr.com
 
2012-09-13 12:01:37 AM  

Void_Beavis: EZ1923: AverageAmericanGuy: JerseyTim: So, umm... Here is the moderate Muslim outrage?

Yes. All 30 of them.

Forgive me if a handful of people with signs doesn't assuage the pain and anger over the Muslims murdering the ambassador yesterday.

favorited!.

This.

Religion of peace my ass.


You might not know what favorited! means.
 
2012-09-13 12:01:56 AM  

Name_Omitted: GAT_00: That's more of an apology than I've ever seen for Christian Talibangelicals from the Christians who supposedly don't agree with them yet never speak against them.

Ok, let me be very, very clear about this. I am a Pacifist, and I am a Christian. I completely and unequivocally disavow any violence done in the name of Christianity. I do not wish to be identified with the KKK, Hutaree, violent anti-abortion activists or anyone else who would kill in the name of Christ. Similarly, I do not group Islam Judaism, or any of the non-Abrahamic faiths by their extremists.


Sorry, you don't fit the narrative. You'll have to endure a nice hot blast of anti-riligious and open-minded bigotry.
 
2012-09-13 12:02:03 AM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Abox: Watching Romney talk about foreign affairs (or really any issue) is like watching a closet gay guy talk about women.

Remind me again...
4 years ago today, what 'foreign affairs' experience did Obama have?


Well, for starters he had Joe Biden.
 
2012-09-13 12:05:53 AM  

Skyred: Thats freaking awesome that they're posting signs like this, I don't give a damn how well they know English.
And what the fark does the tea party movement have to do with this?


Because appearantly if you want lower taxes you're some kind of Taliban or something.

Extreme left logic at its finest, seeking to classify anything it is not as bible thumping bafoons.

On a related note, I wonder if the aithiests in the tea party movement appreciate this classification...
 
2012-09-13 12:05:56 AM  
Where am I getting this? Try the following sources. (BTW, Rachel Maddow put this altogether several hours ago), including audio of al zawarahi calling on revenge for the death of al=Libi on the anniversary of 9/11, the fact that it was in no way just a "spontaneous" event, as numerous eyewitnesses reported that several people showed up at a coordinated time in pick ups, armed to the teeth and simply began firing, and that there apparently was no "piling" on by the people in the crowd protesting the movie, they in fact appear for the most part to have jumped to the defense of teh Americans.

But you can check out the following updates. (Personally, I blame sloppy journalism, they hear that protests are going on and jumped to the conclusion that the Benghazi attacks MUST have originated/inspired by the movie. All without actually looking at the facts and taking into account the anniversary of 9/11 which al qaeda has often tried to use to strike at the USA)


Link - San Francisco Chronicle

FTA: "The attack in Libya that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other U.S. personnel bore the hallmarks of an al-Qaeda operation and may have been carried out by the terrorist group's North Africa affiliate to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the U.S., said Michigan Republican Representative Mike Rogers, chairman of the House intelligence committee."

Link - CNN

Link The Hill
 
2012-09-13 12:07:12 AM  

Sabyen91: Karma Curmudgeon: Sabyen91: I am not sure I would recognize their hallmarks.

From what I can gather it was just a mob scene. No suicide bombers or paramilitary units. Not timed to coincide with any other attack. Angry mob isn't really what they do.

The fact that they died of smoke inhalation might be a strike against the al qaeda theory. I just don't think they tie themselves to one tactic, though. I am not sure what to think on who instigated what.


Wait, I've only read the ambassador died of smoke inhalation, I have no idea on the other three, any links? And there are lots of article's of RPG's being fired at the consulate and gunman battling Libyan security forces for some reports say hours. Even the administration seems to be saying the attackers used the cover of the protestesters.
 
2012-09-13 12:07:54 AM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Abox: Watching Romney talk about foreign affairs (or really any issue) is like watching a closet gay guy talk about women.

Remind me again...
4 years ago today, what 'foreign affairs' experience did Obama have?


He never said the USSR is our foremost enemy?
 
2012-09-13 12:08:44 AM  

Void_Beavis: Name_Omitted: GAT_00: That's more of an apology than I've ever seen for Christian Talibangelicals from the Christians who supposedly don't agree with them yet never speak against them.

Ok, let me be very, very clear about this. I am a Pacifist, and I am a Christian. I completely and unequivocally disavow any violence done in the name of Christianity. I do not wish to be identified with the KKK, Hutaree, violent anti-abortion activists or anyone else who would kill in the name of Christ. Similarly, I do not group Islam Judaism, or any of the non-Abrahamic faiths by their extremists.

Sorry, you don't fit the narrative. You'll have to endure a nice hot blast of anti-riligious and open-minded bigotry.


Cry some more. Need some more nails?
 
2012-09-13 12:09:20 AM  

ciberido: You were saying?


i.imgur.com

People who make vast generalizations about religious cultures are rarely aware of the multiple ideological conflicts and demonstrations inside these allegedly monolithic structures.
 
2012-09-13 12:11:26 AM  

shotglasss: According to all liberals, all Republican blacks are named Uncle Tom.


This makes me think you have not spoken to an actual African American since 1986.
 
2012-09-13 12:13:30 AM  

KidneyStone: ChuDogg: riot

Things are heating up too! A few malotov cocktails, teargas coming in. I;m getting another beer


Daybreak now and things are settling down it seems, but more and more people keep pouring in as they wake up. Looks organized too, every few minutes vans and motorbikes drive up and drop people off, then drive off presumably to pick up more people.

Ive been monitoring this on a few other forums, but farkers seem more interested in discusing romney or trolls. I have a feeling we are gonna wake up to some interesting news
 
2012-09-13 12:13:35 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Sabyen91: Karma Curmudgeon: Sabyen91: I am not sure I would recognize their hallmarks.

From what I can gather it was just a mob scene. No suicide bombers or paramilitary units. Not timed to coincide with any other attack. Angry mob isn't really what they do.

The fact that they died of smoke inhalation might be a strike against the al qaeda theory. I just don't think they tie themselves to one tactic, though. I am not sure what to think on who instigated what.

Wait, I've only read the ambassador died of smoke inhalation, I have no idea on the other three, any links? And there are lots of article's of RPG's being fired at the consulate and gunman battling Libyan security forces for some reports say hours. Even the administration seems to be saying the attackers used the cover of the protestesters.


I had heard they all did. I don't have a link. It might not have been the case. It is frustrating how little information is available and how much of it is noise.
 
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