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(Seattle Times)   Portland to vote on whether to add fluoride to drinking water. This IS a repeat from 1976   (seattletimes.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, portland, fluorides, drinking water, occupy portland, fluoridation, American Dental Association, state Department of Human Services, council  
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2317 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Sep 2012 at 6:13 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



156 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-09-12 04:07:53 PM  
Portland is considered one of the nation's most liberal cities

But... but... but science!
 
2012-09-12 04:08:31 PM  
And dentists in Portland rejoiced.
 
2012-09-12 04:10:25 PM  
www.atomicexpress.net
 
2012-09-12 04:19:20 PM  
Newburgh, New York, was the first city to use the entire city's population to study fluoride's bad side effects to the rest of the body. And the results were dismal.

After ten years, bone defects, and earlier female menstruation occurred more often in Newburgh's children dosed with sodium fluoride-laced drinking water when compared to the control city of Kingston, NY. (3)

According to Professor Paul Connett, PhD, who teaches environmental chemistry and toxicology at St. Lawrence University in NY, "These results were ignored at the time, but are now being seen as valuable clues to far more serious problems, like accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland with a possible lowering of melatonin levels (Luke, 1997, 2001); increased bone fractures in children (Alarcon-Herrera et al., 2001) and possibly increased osteosarcoma (a bone cancer which is frequently fatal) rates in young men (NAS, 1977; NTP, 1990; Hoover, 1991; Cohn 1992; and Mihashi 1996).

Meanwhile, after over 50 years of water fluoridation, many children in Newburgh, New York have more cavities and more fluoride-caused discolored teeth (dental fluorosis) than children in never-fluoridated Kingston, New York, according to a NYS Department of Health study published in the NYS Dental Journal (February 1998, Figure 1, Page 41)

http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/09/should-we-apologize-for-fluorid a tion-not-celebrate-it.htm
 
2012-09-12 04:24:11 PM  
I only ever got cavities during the 5 years I lived in San Antonio Texas which, at the time, didn't have fluoridated water.

I'm not saying there's a definite cause and effect there, but anecdotal evidence is a KIND of evidence.
 
2012-09-12 04:34:17 PM  
Stupid hippies. They probably have their panties in a wad about wifi and wood burning fireplaces too.
 
2012-09-12 04:41:40 PM  
Out of curiosity, I wonder what the vaccination rate in Portland is.
 
2012-09-12 05:24:29 PM  

Shostie: [www.atomicexpress.net image 640x358]


fc02.deviantart.net

Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.
 
2012-09-12 06:15:11 PM  
I'm relying on this thread to supply me with the US FDA's RDA of pseudo-science and conspiracy theories.
 
2012-09-12 06:15:50 PM  
After I moved here and went to the dentist for the first time he said "well, I can see you didn't grow up in Portland" since my teeth didn't look like chiclets. The smiles here could fill a few anthologies of the "Big book of British smiles".
 
2012-09-12 06:16:10 PM  
Two Portland threads in a row! Let's go for a third!
 
2012-09-12 06:16:55 PM  
How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.
 
2012-09-12 06:17:35 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: After I moved here and went to the dentist for the first time he said "well, I can see you didn't grow up in Portland" since my teeth didn't look like chiclets. The smiles here could fill a few anthologies of the "Big book of British smiles".


you've also been reading /r/Portland.
 
2012-09-12 06:17:48 PM  
Portland water is naaasty.
 
2012-09-12 06:18:30 PM  

TheHighlandHowler: Newburgh, New York, was the first city to use the entire city's population to study fluoride's bad side effects to the rest of the body. And the results were dismal.

After ten years, bone defects, and earlier female menstruation occurred more often in Newburgh's children dosed with sodium fluoride-laced drinking water when compared to the control city of Kingston, NY. (3)

According to Professor Paul Connett, PhD, who teaches environmental chemistry and toxicology at St. Lawrence University in NY, "These results were ignored at the time, but are now being seen as valuable clues to far more serious problems, like accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland with a possible lowering of melatonin levels (Luke, 1997, 2001); increased bone fractures in children (Alarcon-Herrera et al., 2001) and possibly increased osteosarcoma (a bone cancer which is frequently fatal) rates in young men (NAS, 1977; NTP, 1990; Hoover, 1991; Cohn 1992; and Mihashi 1996).

Meanwhile, after over 50 years of water fluoridation, many children in Newburgh, New York have more cavities and more fluoride-caused discolored teeth (dental fluorosis) than children in never-fluoridated Kingston, New York, according to a NYS Department of Health study published in the NYS Dental Journal (February 1998, Figure 1, Page 41)

http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/09/should-we-apologize-for-fluorid a tion-not-celebrate-it.htm


Oh Look. We have our first Anti-Fluoridationist of the thread.

CONCLUSIONS:This study demonstrates the continued community effectiveness of water fluoridation and provides support for the extension of this important oral health intervention to populations currently without access to fluoridated water.

Fluoridation of drinking water remains the most effective and socially equitable means of achieving community-wide exposure to the caries prevention effects of fluoride. It is recommended (see also www.nhmrc.gov.au/news/media/rel07/_files/fluoride_flyer.pdf) that water be fluoridated in the target range of 0.6-1.1 mg/l, depending on the climate, to balance reduction of dental caries and occurrence of dental fluorosis.n particular with reference to care in hospital for those following stroke.

Abstract
The oral health of Indigenous children of Canada (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) and the United States (American Indian and Alaska Native) is a major child health issue. This is exemplified by the high prevalence of early childhood caries (ECC) with resulting adverse health effects, as well as high rates and costs of restorative and surgical treatments under general anesthesia. ECC is an infectious disease that is influenced by multiple factors, including socioeconomic determinants, and requires a combination of approaches for improvement. The present statement includes recommendations for oral health preventive and clinical care for young infants and pregnant women by primary health care providers, community-based health promotion initiatives, oral health workforce and access issues, and advocacy for community water fluoridation and fluoride varnish program access. Further community-based research on the epidemiology, prevention, management and microbiology of ECC in Indigenous communities would be beneficial.


It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics to support optimal systemic and topical fluoride as an important public health measure to promote oral health and overall health throughout life. Fluoride is an important element in the mineralization of bone and teeth. The proper use of topical and systemic fluoride has resulted in major reductions in dental caries and its associated disability. Dental caries remains the most prevalent chronic disease in children and affects all age groups of the population. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has named fluoridation of water as one of the 10 most important public health measures of the 21st century. Currently, >72% of the US population that is served by community water systems benefits from water fluoridation. However, only 27 states provide fluoridated water to more than three quarters of the state's residents on public water systems. Fluoride also plays a role in bone health. However, at this time, use of high doses of fluoride for osteoporosis prevention is considered experimental only. Dietetics practitioners should routinely monitor and promote the use of fluorides for all age groups.

This study suggests that the benefits of CWF may be larger than previously believed and that CWF has a lasting improvement in racial/ethnic and economic disparities in oral health.

Abstract
Water fluoridation remains a contentious issue in Canada and many communities choose not to fluoridate their water supply. As of 2007, 45.1% of the Canadian population had access to fluoridated water supplies. The main arguments for and against fluoridation have changed very little over the years, with supporters (including the World Health Organization and Health Canada) citing evidence that shows fluoridation as a safe and effective method of caries prevention, while detractors cite high costs and potential health risks. This article provides an historical overview and a current snapshot of water fluoridation in Canada. It concludes that the ultimate advantage of fluoridation is that it helps everyone in a community, regardless of socioeconomic status.


BUT REMEMBER FOLKS! THERE'S REALLY NO EVIDENCE FOR IT OUT THERE! ITS ALL A SCAM BY THE RAND CORPORATION, THE SAUCER PEOPLE, AND THE EVIL REVERSE VAMPIRES!
 
2012-09-12 06:19:19 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I'm relying on this thread to supply me with the US FDA's RDA of pseudo-science and conspiracy theories.


Oh, don't worry. Wait till this gets on the main page. You'll get your total fill of crazy.
 
2012-09-12 06:20:14 PM  

basemetal: Out of curiosity, I wonder what the vaccination rate in Portland is.


Sadly, rather low, but not as low as Ashland, Oregon.

And low and behold, we have a pertussis epidemic in Oregon as well.

I actually know a woman that in one breath said that since her kids are not vaccinated and mine are, so why should I worry about them getting my kids sick, and that there are too many people on the planet anyways.

So she acknowledged she is putting her kids at risk, but that's ok, because if they die, there were too many humans here anyways.
 
2012-09-12 06:21:22 PM  
Ask your dentist. THey will 99 out of 100 times recommend flouridated water.
 
2012-09-12 06:21:58 PM  
Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.
 
2012-09-12 06:23:02 PM  

meat0918: And low and behold, we have a pertussis epidemic in Oregon as well.


Having had pertussis when I was a teenager, I quite honestly support mandatory, forced, if necessary, immunization for it.

/would wish it on my worst enemy, though
 
2012-09-12 06:23:19 PM  

moops: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: After I moved here and went to the dentist for the first time he said "well, I can see you didn't grow up in Portland" since my teeth didn't look like chiclets. The smiles here could fill a few anthologies of the "Big book of British smiles".

you've also been reading /r/Portland.


Oh You

www.themeparkreview.com

it's been full of nothing but flouride crap and Legalize It threads as of late. Oh and the obligatory, I live in Idaho but I'm looking for somewhere progressive-I'm a part time tattoo artist-my life partner and I would like a 2bdrm-close to public transit-safe neighborhood-500$ a month threads.
 
2012-09-12 06:23:25 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.


70 years of overwhelming medical evidence says otherwise.
 
2012-09-12 06:23:30 PM  

Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.


Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.

I assume then you're going to head off to work by building your own interstate highway system by hand using concrete you reacted from quicklime you hauled from portland or mississippi on your own back and fly ash from your personal steel reactor, then driving over it on a car you constructed yourself out of wood that runs by burning your own farts.
 
2012-09-12 06:23:44 PM  

moops: Two Portland threads in a row! Let's go for a third!


We've had the iphone release thread. Hipster trifecta complete.
 
2012-09-12 06:23:54 PM  

TheHighlandHowler: Newburgh, New York, was the first city to use the entire city's population to study fluoride's bad side effects to the rest of the body. And the results were dismal.

After ten years, bone defects, and earlier female menstruation occurred more often in Newburgh's children dosed with sodium fluoride-laced drinking water when compared to the control city of Kingston, NY. (3)

According to Professor Paul Connett, PhD, who teaches environmental chemistry and toxicology at St. Lawrence University in NY, "These results were ignored at the time, but are now being seen as valuable clues to far more serious problems, like accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland with a possible lowering of melatonin levels (Luke, 1997, 2001); increased bone fractures in children (Alarcon-Herrera et al., 2001) and possibly increased osteosarcoma (a bone cancer which is frequently fatal) rates in young men (NAS, 1977; NTP, 1990; Hoover, 1991; Cohn 1992; and Mihashi 1996).

Meanwhile, after over 50 years of water fluoridation, many children in Newburgh, New York have more cavities and more fluoride-caused discolored teeth (dental fluorosis) than children in never-fluoridated Kingston, New York, according to a NYS Department of Health study published in the NYS Dental Journal (February 1998, Figure 1, Page 41)

http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/09/should-we-apologize-for-fluorid a tion-not-celebrate-it.htm


Using Newburgh as the evidence for this is a mistake. Newburgh is a shiathole town filled with shiathole people who I'm not entirely convinced know what toothpaste is.
 
2012-09-12 06:25:37 PM  
I pity those poor Portlandians having their precious bodily fluids both sapped and impurified.
 
2012-09-12 06:26:02 PM  
Fluoride is necessary to power the transmitters that the CIA puts in your teeth to control your thoughts and broadcast their hot lunch menus.
 
2012-09-12 06:26:04 PM  

BronyMedic: HotIgneous Intruder: Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.

70 years of overwhelming medical evidence says otherwise.


Says what? That flouride isn't an effective topical treatment?
Do tell.
Citation please.
 
2012-09-12 06:26:42 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.


Yes, that would be the general idea.

What's your point, beyond demonstrating your stunning grasp of the incredibly obvious?

Did you think we were under the misapprehension that it's supposed to get into your teeth through your stomach or something? Because if so, you're an idiot, no one thinks that.
 
2012-09-12 06:26:54 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: meat0918: And low and behold, we have a pertussis epidemic in Oregon as well.

Having had pertussis when I was a teenager, I quite honestly support mandatory, forced, if necessary, immunization for it.

/would wish it on my worst enemy, though


My wife had pertussis about 10 years ago. For about six months. Brutal.
 
2012-09-12 06:27:03 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.


Nope. Just plain ol' H2O, please.

I assume then you're going to head off to work by building your own interstate highway system by hand using concrete you reacted from quicklime you hauled from portland or mississippi on your own back and fly ash from your personal steel reactor, then driving over it on a car you constructed yourself out of wood that runs by burning your own farts.

That's a dumb assumption.
 
2012-09-12 06:27:32 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Says what? That flouride isn't an effective topical treatment?
Do tell.
Citation please.


DERP

Holtgneous Intruder:
Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.

70 Years of Medical Science, and hundreds of studies publicly visible on PubMed say otherwise. So, Citation Needed.
 
2012-09-12 06:28:43 PM  
i.cdn.turner.com

They are putting the CHEMICAL flouride into YOUR drinking water! AND they think they can whup your ass!
 
2012-09-12 06:28:52 PM  

Rufus Lee King: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net


Limonene is also used as a pesticide. Limonene is found in citrus fruits.

Are you telling us oranges are poisonous too? Or do you not have a point?
 
2012-09-12 06:29:05 PM  
Seeing as all modern toothpaste is fluoridated I don't really see the point as long as your kids brush their teeth.
 
2012-09-12 06:29:52 PM  

moops: Rufus Lee King: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Limonene is also used as a pesticide. Limonene is found in citrus fruits.

Are you telling us oranges are poisonous too? Or do you not have a point?


Soap is also an awesome insecticide. BAN SOAP!
 
2012-09-12 06:30:21 PM  

Honest Bender: Nope. Just plain ol' H2O, please.


The whole point of fluoridation is to serve as a public health measure for everyone, not just people who can afford the 150 bucks a month to go see their dentist and get a monthly topical fluoridation treatment. Cause, you know, around 55% of the United States population can't afford that.

In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.

But, let me guess. You've got health and dental insurance, right? You got yours, fark everyone else?
 
2012-09-12 06:30:37 PM  

Honest Bender: That's a dumb assumption.


Well, you were assuming that people could reasonably fluoridate their own water.

I was just rolling with the stupid.
 
2012-09-12 06:31:50 PM  
Portland will show some sanity, for once, if they continue to reject flouride pollution in the drinking water.
 
2012-09-12 06:34:45 PM  

BronyMedic: In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.


That's nice. I'd still like to stick to plain water, thanks. As an intelligent, educated man, I'm capable of making my own decisions. Please stop forcing your decisions on me.
 
2012-09-12 06:35:16 PM  

Shazam999: Soap is also an awesome insecticide. BAN SOAP!


Nicotine too!
 
2012-09-12 06:35:20 PM  

BronyMedic: Oh Look. We have our first Anti-Fluoridationist of the thread. ... BUT REMEMBER FOLKS! THERE'S REALLY NO EVIDENCE FOR IT OUT THERE! ITS ALL A SCAM BY THE RAND CORPORATION, THE SAUCER PEOPLE, AND THE EVIL REVERSE VAMPIRES!


So let me ask you this, and I admit, I look like a saucer person and so your comment bothered me.

What is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity?

Since you and TheBeastOfYuccaFlats seem to agree this thread will bring in not just anti-fluoride advocates but people that believe in a whole range of conspiracy theories, am I correct to assume you believe that we should all support water supply fluoride, high carb low fat diets, the dread impact of anthropocentric global warming, and that nothing happened at Roswell? All of these things are the same right? Disbelief in one must mean the person disbelieves all of them.

More seriously, what is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity, and if you happen to think low carb diets might be superior when the scientific consensus and government driven consensus is that high carb diets are better, what is the difference between the scientific consensus supporting low fat diets and the scientific consensus supporting public water supply fluoridation?
 
2012-09-12 06:35:46 PM  

moops: Rufus Lee King: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Limonene is also used as a pesticide. Limonene is found in citrus fruits.

Are you telling us oranges are poisonous too? Or do you not have a point?


I'm surprised you're not more worried about dihydrogen monoxide! That stuff can be LETHAL!
 
2012-09-12 06:35:53 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: That's a dumb assumption.

Well, you were assuming that people could reasonably fluoridate their own water.

I was just rolling with the stupid.


Where did I say people could be reasonably assumed to be capable of fluoridating their own water? Take your time, I'll wait.

/I hear stupid people have poor reading comprehension.
 
2012-09-12 06:38:47 PM  

Honest Bender: BronyMedic: In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.

That's nice. I'd still like to stick to plain water, thanks. As an intelligent, educated man, I'm capable of making my own decisions. Please stop forcing your decisions on me.


Dude, you don't even know how DNS works. You're neither intelligent nor educated. You may have a penis so I guess you pass for a man.
 
2012-09-12 06:39:08 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.


Why go to all that trouble when you can just go down to the local drugstore and by some sodium fluoride tablets? http://www.fluoraday.com/enCA/
 
2012-09-12 06:39:09 PM  

Baloo Uriza: Portland will show some sanity, for once, if they continue to reject flouride pollution in the drinking water.


The headline is misleading. The people didn't vote for this, Central Committee did. Five wankers on the City Council. So much for Democracy.
 
2012-09-12 06:39:09 PM  
Can anyone tell me what Jenny McCarthy thinks about this issue? Because that's the way I would vote.
 
2012-09-12 06:40:42 PM  

Honest Bender: That's nice. I'd still like to stick to plain water, thanks. As an intelligent, educated man, I'm capable of making my own decisions. Please stop forcing your decisions on me.


Good for you. Go dig a well and pump your own water. Or, barring that, I have the perfect place for you.

www.state.gov

Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy living in a society where certain health measures are taken for the betterment of everyone - like public water fluoridation, mass vaccination, and inspections of food and drugs - that pose no or little, reasonable risks to others.

RoyBatty: What is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity?

Since you and TheBeastOfYuccaFlats seem to agree this thread will bring in not just anti-fluoride advocates but people that believe in a whole range of conspiracy theories, am I correct to assume you believe that we should all support water supply fluoride, high carb low fat diets, the dread impact of anthropocentric global warming, and that nothing happened at Roswell? All of these things are the same right? Disbelief in one must mean the person disbelieves all of them.

More seriously, what is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity, and if you happen to think low carb diets might be superior when the scientific consensus and government driven consensus is that high carb diets are better, what is the difference between the scientific consensus supporting low fat diets and the scientific consensus supporting public water supply fluoridation?


Frankly, I wouldn't be qualified to answer that. Unlike Fluoridation of Public Water, or Anti-Vaccination, I haven't really examined the evidence supporting either of those diets. I do know, based on the nutrition classes I have taken at the undergrad level, that diet is something that needs to be highly individualized to each person, and that both "fad diets", and attempting to fit someone into the mold of a specific food choice while ignoring factors such as their basil metabolism and base metabolic requirements, activity level, and health conditions such as Heart Disease, Pulmonary Issues, or Cancer , is setting someone up for failure in terms of treating obesity.

I do know, however, that claiming specific diets will cure X disease like Cancer or Heart Failure, alone, is bunk.
 
2012-09-12 06:41:15 PM  
img155.imageshack.us
 
2012-09-12 06:42:36 PM  

constructor5179: Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.


Why go to all that trouble when you can just go down to the local drugstore and by some sodium fluoride tablets? http://www.fluoraday.com/enCA/


Because those tablets are quite expensive. Calgary got rid of their fluoride because of purple derp master, and so I got those tablets. First, I had to get a prescription, because they're not OTC, and they cost me about $25 for 30 tablets. So that's $300/yr.

Thanks, Nenshi. You rock.
 
2012-09-12 06:42:40 PM  

Shazam999: Dude, you don't even know how DNS works. You're neither intelligent nor educated. You may have a penis so I guess you pass for a man.


You don't have to act tough to impress me. We can be friends if you really want.

/I'm sorry your step-dad touched you as a child. That sucks, dude.
 
2012-09-12 06:43:27 PM  
I'm not going to bother with citations, but many countries have opted not to fluoridate their water any longer after initially doing so because of cumulative detrimental mental and physiological effects...

germany, switzerland, finland, sweden, and japan.. and i think a few others.

There are other sources of fluoride for those who wish to ingest it, i recommend adding toothpaste to your coffee, great for the teeth.

there was a study released in 2011 which showed pretty conclusively that constant low doses of fluoride caused measurable decreases in both learning and memory..

but the refining companies need to sell you there toxic waste otherwise they have to pay to dispose of it. this works out much better for them.

i farking hate portland, but even they can't be stupid enough to actually do it. no farking reason.
 
2012-09-12 06:43:58 PM  
The 1976 vote was all registered voters and they rejected fluoridation 57% to 43%. The 2012 vote is just five city commissioners, including two lame ducks. The pro-fluoride lobby hired the most influential political consultant (Mark Weiner) who is ramrodding it through without a public vote because he knows it would fail. Portland is becoming North Korea with microbrews.

And subby didn't have to go to Seattle to find a newspaper on the interwebs: we have several here in PDX.
 
2012-09-12 06:44:20 PM  

Rufus Lee King: Shazam999: moops: Rufus Lee King: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Limonene is also used as a pesticide. Limonene is found in citrus fruits.

Are you telling us oranges are poisonous too? Or do you not have a point?

Soap is also an awesome insecticide. BAN SOAP!

Well, limonene is a citrus product. Soap is rendered animal fat. Sodium fluoride, well...


Fluoride is naturally present in virtually all water supplies.

What's your point?

The dose makes the poison. You can try it out, dunk your head in a bucket of water and breathe real deep...
 
2012-09-12 06:44:55 PM  

BronyMedic: Good for you. Go dig a well and pump your own water. Or, barring that, I have the perfect place for you.


Good suggestion. I prefer Fiji water myself.
 
2012-09-12 06:45:21 PM  

Honest Bender: Shazam999: Dude, you don't even know how DNS works. You're neither intelligent nor educated. You may have a penis so I guess you pass for a man.

You don't have to act tough to impress me. We can be friends if you really want.

/I'm sorry your step-dad touched you as a child. That sucks, dude.


Please, regale us with more of your intelligence. Perhaps you can tell us how the sun works without farking it up.
 
2012-09-12 06:45:50 PM  

Rufus Lee King: Shazam999: moops: Rufus Lee King: sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Limonene is also used as a pesticide. Limonene is found in citrus fruits.

Are you telling us oranges are poisonous too? Or do you not have a point?

Soap is also an awesome insecticide. BAN SOAP!

Well, limonene is a citrus product. Soap is rendered animal fat. Sodium fluoride, well...


You really don't understand toxicology, do you? Or that the effects of Sodium Fluoride, as a poison, are dose dependent? You would die of hyponatremia and water intoxication/fluid overload FAR before you could suffer any ill effects from public water fluoridation.

If you were so inclined, you could even eat minute amounts of Ricin and Botulinum Toxin and not suffer ill effects. It'd be a very, very small amount, but still.
 
2012-09-12 06:46:42 PM  

Honest Bender: Good suggestion. I prefer Fiji water myself.


Dude. Just admit you're trolling on this one. This is absurd even for me.

/You pay six bucks for a bottle of filtered tap water?
 
2012-09-12 06:49:07 PM  

Shazam999: Please, regale us with more of your intelligence. Perhaps you can tell us how the sun works without farking it up.


I'll just let my friends TMBG explain.
 
2012-09-12 06:49:17 PM  

BronyMedic: TheHighlandHowler: Newburgh, New York, was the first city to use the entire city's population to study fluoride's bad side effects to the rest of the body. And the results were dismal.

After ten years, bone defects, and earlier female menstruation occurred more often in Newburgh's children dosed with sodium fluoride-laced drinking water when compared to the control city of Kingston, NY. (3)

According to Professor Paul Connett, PhD, who teaches environmental chemistry and toxicology at St. Lawrence University in NY, "These results were ignored at the time, but are now being seen as valuable clues to far more serious problems, like accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland with a possible lowering of melatonin levels (Luke, 1997, 2001); increased bone fractures in children (Alarcon-Herrera et al., 2001) and possibly increased osteosarcoma (a bone cancer which is frequently fatal) rates in young men (NAS, 1977; NTP, 1990; Hoover, 1991; Cohn 1992; and Mihashi 1996).

Meanwhile, after over 50 years of water fluoridation, many children in Newburgh, New York have more cavities and more fluoride-caused discolored teeth (dental fluorosis) than children in never-fluoridated Kingston, New York, according to a NYS Department of Health study published in the NYS Dental Journal (February 1998, Figure 1, Page 41)

http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/09/should-we-apologize-for-fluorid a tion-not-celebrate-it.htm

Oh Look. We have our first Anti-Fluoridationist of the thread.

CONCLUSIONS:This study demonstrates the continued community effectiveness of water fluoridation and provides support for the extension of this important oral health intervention to populations currently without access to fluoridated water.

Fluoridation of drinking water remains the most effective and socially equitable means of achieving community-wide exposure to the caries prevention effects of fluoride. It is recommended (see also www.nhmrc.gov.au/news/media/rel07/_files/fluoride_flyer.pdf) that ...


Hush you, you're farking up business......
 
2012-09-12 06:49:35 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-09-12 06:50:05 PM  

BronyMedic: Frankly, I wouldn't be qualified to answer that. Unlike Fluoridation of Public Water, or Anti-Vaccination, I haven't really examined the evidence supporting either of those diets. I do know, based on the nutrition classes I have taken at the undergrad level, that diet is something that needs to be highly individualized to each person, and that both "fad diets", and attempting to fit someone into the mold of a specific food choice while ignoring factors such as their basil metabolism and base metabolic requirements, activity level, and health conditions such as Heart Disease, Pulmonary Issues, or Cancer , is setting someone up for failure in terms of treating obesity.


My reading, as a layman, is that the low carb diet is superior and gets more evidence for that everyday, and that it flies in the face of scientific / government consensus. I also recall the late 80s bran muffin fad that was eventually debunked and traced to a study of 11 people.

Anyway, I think there's a large group of people that absolutely 100% support topical treatment of fluoride (toothpaste, dental treatments) but think reasonably that there are various reasons to doubt that putting it in the water supply is dubious and conceivably a waste of money if not worse given much better dental hygiene and availability of dental care to kids.

I flipped on fluoride when I learned in the late 80s that my town (LA) didn't fluoridate the water (they do now.) I was sort of shocked that LA didn't. Of course we did, you'd have to be a nutter to not fluoridate.
 
2012-09-12 06:50:48 PM  

meat0918: basemetal: Out of curiosity, I wonder what the vaccination rate in Portland is.

Sadly, rather low, but not as low as Ashland, Oregon.

And low and behold, we have a pertussis epidemic in Oregon as well.

I actually know a woman that in one breath said that since her kids are not vaccinated and mine are, so why should I worry about them getting my kids sick, and that there are too many people on the planet anyways.

So she acknowledged she is putting her kids at risk, but that's ok, because if they die, there were too many humans here anyways.


Did you ask if you could kill her kids?
 
2012-09-12 06:53:56 PM  

BronyMedic: Dude. Just admit you're trolling on this one. This is absurd even for me.

/You pay six bucks for a bottle of filtered tap water?


I don't mind being a bit trollish with people who think it's absurd that I should be able to buy pure, un-farked with water from the public utility. Keep in mind I've never denied the benefits of fluoridated water. Though, the studies (many of which have already been mentioned in the thread) pointing out the health detriments do concern me.

Is it really so stupid or crazy to want to have the decision of what I consume left entirely up to me? I mean, I get to choose what I eat. There are practical limitations on my right to choose the quality of air I breath... but water, as delivered to my home, should be delivered in pure format. If people think it's in their best interest to consume more fluoride, that's their business, not mine. All I'm asking for is the same consideration.
 
2012-09-12 06:54:55 PM  

RoyBatty: My reading, as a layman, is that the low carb diet is superior and gets more evidence for that everyday, and that it flies in the face of scientific / government consensus. I also recall the late 80s bran muffin fad that was eventually debunked and traced to a study of 11 people.

Anyway, I think there's a large group of people that absolutely 100% support topical treatment of fluoride (toothpaste, dental treatments) but think reasonably that there are various reasons to doubt that putting it in the water supply is dubious and conceivably a waste of money if not worse given much better dental hygiene and availability of dental care to kids.

I flipped on fluoride when I learned in the late 80s that my town (LA) didn't fluoridate the water (they do now.) I was sort of shocked that LA didn't. Of course we did, you'd have to be a nutter to not fluoridate.


That's the thing about Science and Evidence-Based practices in medicine and dentistry. Regardless of how the general public feels, the scientific evidence is going to show you what is really true. Eventually, that evidence will reveal something that we thought worked was not working as well as we thought it did at the time. It's the reason, for example, we don't treat Stroke patients by dosing them up with Labetalol and sending them to the ICU for the next week anymore. If fluoridation of the public water was a statistical fluke, legitimate, high impact studies over the past 70 years would have revealed that to us. Instead, they have overwhelmingly affirmed it's benefit - especially in low income and disadvantaged areas of the United States, where usage of dental health services is low to non-existent due to income and socioeconomic issues.

People as a whole are prone to misinformation, panic, and poor assumptions based on their limited realm of knowledge. If you want a great example, look at this thread. You have people calling water fluoridation pollution and "poison", who don't have a freaking clue about a basic toxicology principle - Dose Makes the Poison, or don't even realize that you would die of other things long before you ingested enough water fluoride to be sick in a properly managed system.
 
2012-09-12 06:59:08 PM  

Honest Bender: I don't mind being a bit trollish with people who think it's absurd that I should be able to buy pure, un-farked with water from the public utility. Keep in mind I've never denied the benefits of fluoridated water. Though, the studies (many of which have already been mentioned in the thread) pointing out the health detriments do concern me.

Is it really so stupid or crazy to want to have the decision of what I consume left entirely up to me? I mean, I get to choose what I eat. There are practical limitations on my right to choose the quality of air I breath... but water, as delivered to my home, should be delivered in pure format. If people think it's in their best interest to consume more fluoride, that's their business, not mine. All I'm asking for is the same consideration.


Yeah, you're right. There are health concerns - like dental fluorosis - in unmaintained and unmanaged systems. That's why there's such a big push to keep limits in a very narrow range.

But the thing is, it's not just you. It's everyone. People who are immunocompromised. People with HIV. Transplant patients. Cancer patients. Pure water is deadly. It's not pure when it hits the water treatment plant. It has bacteria, viruses, parasites, chemicals and compounds in it which WOULD harm you, even raw sewage and animal wastes. Deaths from contaminated drinking water, and outbreaks, are one of the most common causes in the world outside of the United States.

www.topnews.in
 
2012-09-12 07:02:47 PM  
What if it is organic, free-range, fair trade, local flouride?
 
2012-09-12 07:08:21 PM  

BronyMedic: That's the thing about Science and Evidence-Based practices in medicine and dentistry. Regardless of how the general public feels, the scientific evidence is going to show you what is really true. Eventually, that evidence will reveal something that we thought worked was not working as well as we thought it did at the time. It's the reason, for example, we don't treat Stroke patients by dosing them up with Labetalol and sending them to the ICU for the next week anymore. If fluoridation of the public water was a statistical fluke, legitimate, high impact studies over the past 70 years would have revealed that to us. Instead, they have overwhelmingly affirmed it's benefit - especially in low income and disadvantaged areas of the United States, where usage of dental health services is low to non-existent due to income and socioeconomic issues.


But I think it's also a good idea to realize that many medical studies can't be replicated. (Amgen, Ioannidis) And then consider that public fluoridation may be driven LESS by medical studies *these days* then by status quo, the vast civic industrial fluoridation complex that Eisenhower warned of us, and "what health officials and civic engineers" learnt in school 30 years ago.

Anyway, I'm just not as comfortable with the consensus argument as I used to be, though I myself am personally loathe to go against anything that "the consensus" has given a thumbs up too.
 
2012-09-12 07:08:24 PM  
Conspiracy nutjobs making wild unsubstantiated claims about the danger of fluoride.

/go have a big old glass of tapwater, deniers. You weren't using that brain anyway.
 
2012-09-12 07:10:59 PM  
Limonene in OJ is reckoned to cause a dose of C every now and again.
 
2012-09-12 07:11:22 PM  
I don't study this issue, but in Portland, how much will public fluoridation cost to install and annually, and how many Portland kids are not receiving dental fluoridation treatments and how much would it cost to make those available for free?
 
2012-09-12 07:16:36 PM  
"Mah teef."
 
2012-09-12 07:22:48 PM  

BronyMedic: But the thing is, it's not just you. It's everyone.


Well, I'm not trying to make decisions for everyone. That's actually what I'm sort of against here. If other people feel they need additional chemicals in their diet to be healthy then I'm all for giving them the option. I wont force my un-tainted water on them if they don't force their slurry on me.

Pure water is deadly.

*facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?
 
2012-09-12 07:23:52 PM  
Ah good, Strangelove and the likes! All is going well in this thread, carry on!
 
2012-09-12 07:35:19 PM  
How about brushing your teeth once in a while with actual toothpaste? That should take care of it.
 
2012-09-12 07:35:43 PM  

Honest Bender: *facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?


You do realize that the link that I used as an example of that was the reason why we don't put "pure" water in the pipes, as in unchemically treated, ultrafiltered water? "Bottled" water is placed into aseptic containers after being run through a filtration and pasturization/distillation process that is not possible to maintain in a public works system. The reason those pipes have chlorinated water, for example, is because contamination down system does occur.

The 1993 Cryptosporidium Outbreak in Milwaukee is an example of what happens when the water company pumps "pure" water to your household - as in too low levels of chlorine.

But yes. Continue to be disingenuous about that. Like you said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when you actually read the material I linked.

/Again. Pure water is deadly. Halogens save lives.
 
2012-09-12 07:37:12 PM  

Spare Me: Baloo Uriza: Portland will show some sanity, for once, if they continue to reject flouride pollution in the drinking water.

The headline is misleading. The people didn't vote for this, Central Committee did. Five wankers on the City Council. So much for Democracy.


So it'll be on the March Special ballot. Mark my words.
 
2012-09-12 07:38:48 PM  

Shazam999: constructor5179: Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.


Why go to all that trouble when you can just go down to the local drugstore and by some sodium fluoride tablets? http://www.fluoraday.com/enCA/

Because those tablets are quite expensive. Calgary got rid of their fluoride because of purple derp master, and so I got those tablets. First, I had to get a prescription, because they're not OTC, and they cost me about $25 for 30 tablets. So that's $300/yr.

Thanks, Nenshi. You rock.


Pretty sure I've seen this in Canada.
 
2012-09-12 07:40:00 PM  

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: The 1976 vote was all registered voters and they rejected fluoridation 57% to 43%. The 2012 vote is just five city commissioners, including two lame ducks. The pro-fluoride lobby hired the most influential political consultant (Mark Weiner) who is ramrodding it through without a public vote because he knows it would fail. Portland is becoming North Korea with microbrews.

And subby didn't have to go to Seattle to find a newspaper on the interwebs: we have several here in PDX.


One. The Oregonian and the Willy Week don't count.
 
2012-09-12 07:42:51 PM  
"Populace, please note: Your shiat is polluting the water, so deal with fluoride, or else die from decay..."
 
2012-09-12 07:43:05 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Conspiracy nutjobs making wild unsubstantiated claims about the danger of fluoride.

/go have a big old glass of tapwater, deniers. You weren't using that brain anyway.


Conclusion: "The results support the possibility of an adverse effect of high fluoride exposure on children's neurodevelopment. Future research should include detailed individual-level information on prenatal exposure, neurobehavioral performance, and covariates for adjustment."

"The possibility" of an effect justifying future research is not the same as concluding that there is an effect.

"There are many weaknesses to the epidemiological studies reviewed in the recent article - high heterogeneity, poor controlling for other variables, no indication of blinding of IQ assessments, and many others. But even taken at face value they do not indicate any association between lower IQ and the fluoride levels added to drinking water in the US. In fact, those levels of fluoride were used as the controls in these studies showing higher IQ. (There was a lot of variance of the effect size, but the net effect size on IQ in the meta-analysis was -0.45 standard deviations). Therefore, if anything, this review adds to the body of evidence for the safety of fluoridation." Link
 
2012-09-12 07:51:40 PM  

Jim_Callahan: HotIgneous Intruder: Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.

Yes, that would be the general idea.

What's your point, beyond demonstrating your stunning grasp of the incredibly obvious?

Did you think we were under the misapprehension that it's supposed to get into your teeth through your stomach or something? Because if so, you're an idiot, no one thinks that.


My point was that it CANNOT get to your teeth through your stomach, so why drink it.
 
2012-09-12 07:52:34 PM  

GilRuiz1: Portland is considered one of the nation's most liberal cities

But... but... but science!


Being liberal doesn't make immune to being an idiot, it just makes less likely to use God as an excuse for your stupidity.
 
2012-09-12 07:59:23 PM  
So drinking, showering, laundering, pooping and peeing in fluoridated water helps to prevent cavities?

What about the fish in the aquarium? Their teeth must really be healthy!


/My parrot drinks fluoridated water
//Never had a tooth problem
///EVAR
 
2012-09-12 08:03:39 PM  
Just no already. Vaccinate your farking kids and for the love of God just go buy your own farking water if you don't want any delicious fluoride - don't try to make the whole goddamn community go without this almost universally accepted advance in public health.
 
2012-09-12 08:18:09 PM  

Honest Bender: BronyMedic: But the thing is, it's not just you. It's everyone.

Well, I'm not trying to make decisions for everyone. That's actually what I'm sort of against here. If other people feel they need additional chemicals in their diet to be healthy then I'm all for giving them the option. I wont force my un-tainted water on them if they don't force their slurry on me.

Pure water is deadly.

*facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?


Chlorine is a very toxic chemical. Incredibly toxic, really. Why are you in favor of chlorinated water, but not fluoridated? Or any of the other supremely nasty chems added at the treatment plant?

You're being disingenuous. Dose is all that matters. Anybody who's ever taken a material safety course is well aware of this fact. How is a completely non-harmful dose of anything worth worrying about?

Next you're gonna complain about the iodine...
 
2012-09-12 08:26:10 PM  

BronyMedic: Honest Bender: *facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?

You do realize that the link that I used as an example of that was the reason why we don't put "pure" water in the pipes, as in unchemically treated, ultrafiltered water? "Bottled" water is placed into aseptic containers after being run through a filtration and pasturization/distillation process that is not possible to maintain in a public works system. The reason those pipes have chlorinated water, for example, is because contamination down system does occur.

The 1993 Cryptosporidium Outbreak in Milwaukee is an example of what happens when the water company pumps "pure" water to your household - as in too low levels of chlorine.



Bad example. Cryptosporidium is highly resistant to chlorine - often persisting in swimming pools that have far more chlorine than municipal drinking water.

Wiki:


"Infection is through contaminated material such as earth, water, uncooked or cross-contaminated food that has been in contact with the feces of an infected individual or animal. Contact must then be transferred to the mouth and swallowed. It is especially prevalent amongst those in regular contact with bodies of fresh water including recreational water such as swimming pools. Other potential sources include insufficiently treated water supplies, contaminated food, or exposure to feces.[1] The high resistance of Cryptosporidium oocysts to disinfectants such as chlorine bleach enables them to survive for long periods and still remain infective.[6] Some outbreaks have happened in day care related to diaper changes."

End quote

Chlorine is great for killing most pathogens, but Crypto is different. You need to avoid contamination, and failing that, boil, or put the water through a 1 micron filter.

Or you could just drink 50/50 bleach. I'm sure that would do it.
 
2012-09-12 08:28:56 PM  
There have been no health benefits proven about fluoride in the water.
There HAVE been health hazards proven about fluoride in the water.

You want your kids to not have bad teeth? Pin their ass to the wall by the neck so they can't swallow the fluoride and brush those teeth.
Don't use fluoride toothpaste tho, it binds the bad stuff into the teeth. Use salt and baking soda.
 
2012-09-12 08:33:12 PM  

BronyMedic: Holtgneous Intruder: Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.

70 Years of Medical Science, and hundreds of studies publicly visible on PubMed say otherwise. So, Citation Needed.



Farking fluoride! HOW DOES IT WORK???

/Not systemically
//So citation needed
///SRSLY
 
2012-09-12 08:33:33 PM  

prjindigo: There have been no health benefits proven about fluoride in the water.
There HAVE been health hazards proven about fluoride in the water.

You want your kids to not have bad teeth? Pin their ass to the wall by the neck so they can't swallow the fluoride and brush those teeth.
Don't use fluoride toothpaste tho, it binds the bad stuff into the teeth. Use salt and baking soda.


This took all of 2 minutes to find. 
 
2012-09-12 08:37:42 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Jim_Callahan: HotIgneous Intruder: Flouride is a good topical treatment. Serves no purpose in drinking water besides bathing the teeth as it passes.

Yes, that would be the general idea.

What's your point, beyond demonstrating your stunning grasp of the incredibly obvious?

Did you think we were under the misapprehension that it's supposed to get into your teeth through your stomach or something? Because if so, you're an idiot, no one thinks that.

My point was that it CANNOT get to your teeth through your stomach, so why drink it.


I think it can for children whose teeth are still growing.
 
2012-09-12 08:39:50 PM  

SN1987a goes boom: prjindigo: There have been no health benefits proven about fluoride in the water.
There HAVE been health hazards proven about fluoride in the water.

You want your kids to not have bad teeth? Pin their ass to the wall by the neck so they can't swallow the fluoride and brush those teeth.
Don't use fluoride toothpaste tho, it binds the bad stuff into the teeth. Use salt and baking soda.

This took all of 2 minutes to find.


And we haven't even broached the topic of fracking, no?

We should, or rather, I will: Fracking is good for Energy but bad for drinking water. Which is an element of life?>Trick question. Which is a fundamental principle of your internal functioning as a human entity/mind/soul? Water or natural gas?
 
2012-09-12 08:41:33 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.

I assume then you're going to head off to work by building your own interstate highway system by hand using concrete you reacted from quicklime you hauled from portland or mississippi on your own back and fly ash from your personal steel reactor, then driving over it on a car you constructed yourself out of wood that runs by burning your own farts.


Awesome. I'm gonna print out this information, and then I can do everything myself without having to interact with anyone!
 
2012-09-12 08:43:21 PM  
Bottom-line: what is more important? People or profit?

Potable water or energy?

I choose potable water until the end of time as we know it, you?
 
2012-09-12 08:46:42 PM  

Kuroshin: Honest Bender: BronyMedic: But the thing is, it's not just you. It's everyone.

Well, I'm not trying to make decisions for everyone. That's actually what I'm sort of against here. If other people feel they need additional chemicals in their diet to be healthy then I'm all for giving them the option. I wont force my un-tainted water on them if they don't force their slurry on me.

Pure water is deadly.

*facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?

Chlorine is a very toxic chemical. Incredibly toxic, really. Why are you in favor of chlorinated water, but not fluoridated? Or any of the other supremely nasty chems added at the treatment plant?

You're being disingenuous. Dose is all that matters. Anybody who's ever taken a material safety course is well aware of this fact. How is a completely non-harmful dose of anything worth worrying about?

Next you're gonna complain about the iodine...


Chlorine in water IS harmful in a number of applications. However you can solve that problem by letting the chlorinated water sit out overnight. I've seen a lot of well meaning people change the water in a fish tank with public tap water. The result is dead fish.

The problem with dismissing people's concerns out of hand and denigrating them as loons is that such a practice shuts down the potential for learning. And misrepresenting the facts with hyperbole just makes things worse.
 
2012-09-12 08:51:18 PM  

Amos Quito: BronyMedic: Honest Bender: *facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?

You do realize that the link that I used as an example of that was the reason why we don't put "pure" water in the pipes, as in unchemically treated, ultrafiltered water? "Bottled" water is placed into aseptic containers after being run through a filtration and pasturization/distillation process that is not possible to maintain in a public works system. The reason those pipes have chlorinated water, for example, is because contamination down system does occur.

The 1993 Cryptosporidium Outbreak in Milwaukee is an example of what happens when the water company pumps "pure" water to your household - as in too low levels of chlorine.


Bad example. Cryptosporidium is highly resistant to chlorine - often persisting in swimming pools that have far more chlorine than municipal drinking water.

Wiki:

"Infection is through contaminated material such as earth, water, uncooked or cross-contaminated food that has been in contact with the feces of an infected individual or animal. Contact must then be transferred to the mouth and swallowed. It is especially prevalent amongst those in regular contact with bodies of fresh water including recreational water such as swimming pools. Other potential sources include insufficiently treated water supplies, contaminated food, or exposure to feces.[1] The high resistance of Cryptosporidium oocysts to disinfectants such as chlorine bleach enables them to survive for long periods and still remain infective.[6] Some outbreaks have happened in day care related to diaper changes."

End quote

Chlorine is great for killing most pathogens, but Crypto is different. You need to avoid contamination, and failing that, boil, or put the water through a 1 micron filter.

Or you could just drink 50/50 bleach. I'm sure that would do it.


Amos. This is why you shouldn't use Wiki to back up your claim without reading the linked source. The source you cited is referring to the use of Chlorine Bleach, Sodium Hypochlorite, in Recreational water supplies - pools. Disinfection, at the municipal level, is typically accomplished with gaseous chlorine.

Chlorine disinfection of recreational water for Cryptosporidium parvum.

Go read the history of the 1993 Milwaukee Crypto outbreak. It happened because the entire water system was inadequately filtered, chlorinated, and tested. The pathogen got into the water at the treatment source, and lax safety and quality assurance procedures allowed it to infect tens of thousands, and kill hundreds of immunocompromised and HIV patients.
 
2012-09-12 08:54:24 PM  

Rufus Lee King: [sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net image 403x403]


*facepalm*

Alle Ding' sind Gift, und nichts ohn' Gift; allein die Dosis macht, daß ein Ding kein Gift ist. (Paracelsus)

Gegen Dummheit kampfen Götter selbst vergebens. (Friedrich Schiller)
 
2012-09-12 08:56:00 PM  

kim jong-un: Chlorine in water IS harmful in a number of applications. However you can solve that problem by letting the chlorinated water sit out overnight. I've seen a lot of well meaning people change the water in a fish tank with public tap water. The result is dead fish.

The problem with dismissing people's concerns out of hand and denigrating them as loons is that such a practice shuts down the potential for learning. And misrepresenting the facts with hyperbole just makes things worse.


Yes, they're just asking questions.

Making you buy five dollars worth of dechlorination tablets for your fish tank is a small price to pay, in my mind, for having a safe and reliable drinking water supply, that won't become a petrie dish for all kinds of nasty microorganisms.
 
2012-09-12 09:05:25 PM  
img844.imageshack.us

^ What your average Portland resident may look like.
 
2012-09-12 09:13:12 PM  

kim jong-un: Kuroshin: Honest Bender: BronyMedic: But the thing is, it's not just you. It's everyone.

Well, I'm not trying to make decisions for everyone. That's actually what I'm sort of against here. If other people feel they need additional chemicals in their diet to be healthy then I'm all for giving them the option. I wont force my un-tainted water on them if they don't force their slurry on me.

Pure water is deadly.

*facepalm*
Ya, because obviously when I said pure water, what I meant was untreated water... Tell you what, I'll try not to talk to you like you're dumb if you try not to act dumb. Sound good?

Chlorine is a very toxic chemical. Incredibly toxic, really. Why are you in favor of chlorinated water, but not fluoridated? Or any of the other supremely nasty chems added at the treatment plant?

You're being disingenuous. Dose is all that matters. Anybody who's ever taken a material safety course is well aware of this fact. How is a completely non-harmful dose of anything worth worrying about?

Next you're gonna complain about the iodine...

Chlorine in water IS harmful in a number of applications. However you can solve that problem by letting the chlorinated water sit out overnight. I've seen a lot of well meaning people change the water in a fish tank with public tap water. The result is dead fish.

The problem with dismissing people's concerns out of hand and denigrating them as loons is that such a practice shuts down the potential for learning. And misrepresenting the facts with hyperbole just makes things worse.


Please save COH/V; do it now.
 
2012-09-12 09:14:32 PM  
I won't drink H2O with that poison in it!
 
2012-09-12 09:16:56 PM  

BronyMedic: You do realize that the link that I used as an example of that was the reason why we don't put "pure" water in the pipes, as in unchemically treated, ultrafiltered water? "Bottled" water is placed into aseptic containers after being run through a filtration and pasturization/distillation process that is not possible to maintain in a public works system. The reason those pipes have chlorinated water, for example, is because contamination down system does occur.

The 1993 Cryptosporidium Outbreak in Milwaukee is an example of what happens when the water company pumps "pure" water to your household - as in too low levels of chlorine.

But yes. Continue to be disingenuous about that. Like you said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when you actually read the material I linked.

/Again. Pure water is deadly. Halogens save lives.


OK, let's stick to putting into water only that which is necessary to keep people from getting sick or dying hours or days after drinking it.

The minimum level of chlorine necessary to eliminate harmful microorganisms would seem to pass such a 'bare minimum" test. Fluoride would not.
 
2012-09-12 09:17:40 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Conspiracy nutjobs making wild unsubstantiated claims about the danger of fluoride.

/go have a big old glass of tapwater, deniers. You weren't using that brain anyway.


Isn't this the study done in China in places where the fluoride levels are by great magnitudes higher than those limits imposed in the US?
 
2012-09-12 09:24:21 PM  

BronyMedic: Wiki:

"Infection is through contaminated material such as earth, water, uncooked or cross-contaminated food that has been in contact with the feces of an infected individual or animal. Contact must then be transferred to the mouth and swallowed. It is especially prevalent amongst those in regular contact with bodies of fresh water including recreational water such as swimming pools. Other potential sources include insufficiently treated water supplies, contaminated food, or exposure to feces.[1] The high resistance of Cryptosporidium oocysts to disinfectants such as chlorine bleach enables them to survive for long periods and still remain infective.[6] Some outbreaks have happened in day care related to diaper changes."

End quote

Chlorine is great for killing most pathogens, but Crypto is different. You need to avoid contamination, and failing that, boil, or put the water through a 1 micron filter.

Or you could just drink 50/50 bleach. I'm sure that would do it.

Amos. This is why you shouldn't use Wiki to back up your claim without reading the linked source. The source you cited is referring to the use of Chlorine Bleach, Sodium Hypochlorite, in Recreational water supplies - pools. Disinfection, at the municipal level, is typically accomplished with gaseous chlorine.

Chlorine disinfection of recreational water for Cryptosporidium parvum.

Go read the history of the 1993 Milwaukee Crypto outbreak. It happened because the entire water system was inadequately filtered, chlorinated, and tested. The pathogen got into the water at the treatment source, and lax safety and quality assurance procedures allowed it to infect tens of thousands, and kill hundreds of immunocompromised and HIV patients.



Ahem:

Harvard.edu

The Dangers Of Cryptosporidium In Drinking Water

How Water Becomes Contaminated
Cryptosporidium is usually connected with poor sanitation. It is a common and difficult problem in
developing countries and ranks as a leading cause of diarrheal illness worldwide.

According to one theory, the Milwaukee outbreak was caused by water runoff from a nearby farm or
slaughterhouse that was contaminated with Cryptosporidium from animal intestines or feces
. The
runoff traveled into the Milwaukee River and then into Lake Michigan, where it eventually entered one
of Milwaukee's lake water intake pipes.

Contaminated water sometimes passes freely through water treatment plants because Cryptosporidium
is not readily killed by chlorine, and filtration may be ineffectual or nonexistent
. What's more, the
standard tests that water purification plants routinely rely on to indicate biological contamination do
not pick up the presence of Cryptosporidium. In fact, during the Milwaukee outbreak, the municipal
water treatment plant met all safe water standards for disinfection and filtration
.


END QUOTE

Again: "Cryptosporidium is not readily killed by chlorine"


/Just sayin'
 
2012-09-12 09:25:30 PM  

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: The 1976 vote was all registered voters and they rejected fluoridation 57% to 43%. The 2012 vote is just five city commissioners, including two lame ducks. The pro-fluoride lobby hired the most influential political consultant (Mark Weiner) who is ramrodding it through without a public vote because he knows it would fail. Portland is becoming North Korea with microbrews.

And subby didn't have to go to Seattle to find a newspaper on the interwebs: we have several here in PDX.


Perhaps subby was looking for a viewpoint outside of the immediate area.

Also, today I learned, that "meth mouth" isn't the only reason an Oregonian's teeth are rotten.
 
2012-09-12 09:26:14 PM  

TheHighlandHowler: accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland


A calcified pineal gland prevents you from communicating with the trans-dimensional self-transforming machine elves.
 
2012-09-12 09:32:00 PM  

fusillade762: TheHighlandHowler: accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland

A calcified pineal gland prevents you from communicating with the trans-dimensional self-transforming machine elves.



So that's it!

Is there a cure?
 
2012-09-12 09:32:11 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Just no already. Vaccinate your farking kids and for the love of God just go buy your own farking water if you don't want any delicious fluoride - don't try to make the whole goddamn community go without this almost universally accepted advance in public health.


You know we're talking about adding fluoride to the drinking water, not water filtration and chlorination, right?
 
2012-09-12 09:34:45 PM  

The_Cisco_Kid: Portland water is naaasty.


Baloo Uriza: Portland will show some sanity, for once, if they continue to reject flouride pollution in the drinking water.


Sorry, but the vote was with the city council - 5 people got to vote this time - not the city folk.

The popular vote would have likely rejected it - again.
 
2012-09-12 09:36:35 PM  
BronyMedic: Honest Bender: Nope. Just plain ol' H2O, please.

The whole point of fluoridation is to serve as a public health measure for everyone, not just people who can afford the 150 bucks a month to go see their dentist and get a monthly topical fluoridation treatment. Cause, you know, around 55% of the United States population can't afford that.

In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.

But, let me guess. You've got health and dental insurance, right? You got yours, fark everyone else?



Better yet, I've got aluminum stocks! Every time another city decides to add sodium fluoride to their water supply, CHA-CHING goes my bank account! There's nothing better than maximizing profit by not having to PAY for waste disposal! Instead we SELL it to municipalities, so they can in turn FORCE their citizens to drink it! HAHAHA it sure wouldn't be so easy to get rich if there weren't so many stupid people!
 
2012-09-12 09:42:20 PM  
Huh. I read the headline as "POLAND to vote on whether to add fluoride to drinking water"

Meh. Why don't they put fluoride in water softener salt? NaF would work in an ion exchange just as well as NaCl, and bumpkins like me who are on well water can make sure their stomach teeth get nice and strong just like city folk...
 
2012-09-12 09:46:09 PM  

wantingout: BronyMedic: Honest Bender: Nope. Just plain ol' H2O, please.

The whole point of fluoridation is to serve as a public health measure for everyone, not just people who can afford the 150 bucks a month to go see their dentist and get a monthly topical fluoridation treatment. Cause, you know, around 55% of the United States population can't afford that.

In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.

But, let me guess. You've got health and dental insurance, right? You got yours, fark everyone else?



Better yet, I've got aluminum stocks! Every time another city decides to add sodium fluoride to their water supply, CHA-CHING goes my bank account! There's nothing better than maximizing profit by not having to PAY for waste disposal! Instead we SELL it to municipalities, so they can in turn FORCE their citizens to drink it! HAHAHA it sure wouldn't be so easy to get rich if there weren't so many stupid people!


I wasn't aware that I had a knife resting against my jugular to ensure my cooperation in drinking water. From my tap. It's this sort of overreaction and, frankly, unnecessary drama that makes it hard to discuss water fluoridation like adults.

/Or really any issue where people get mad for no conceivable reason
//Also, ignoring the overwhelming preponderance of scientific evidence saying you're freaking out over nothing doesn't seem entirely sane
///I give it two whole posts before people start shouting "fluoride lobby" at me at the top of their lungs
 
2012-09-12 09:48:24 PM  

BronyMedic: Honest Bender: Nope. Just plain ol' H2O, please.

The whole point of fluoridation is to serve as a public health measure for everyone, not just people who can afford the 150 bucks a month to go see their dentist and get a monthly topical fluoridation treatment. Cause, you know, around 55% of the United States population can't afford that.

In properly regulated and managed systems with a low dose - 0.5 to 1.1 mg/L, it poses no risk to anyone. You would literally have to drink over 7 liters a day, at the 1.1mg/L dose, for 30 days, to see any semblance of toxic effect.

But, let me guess. You've got health and dental insurance, right? You got yours, fark everyone else?


Sorry, you're number are wrong. A 4 month treatment of fluoride (120 tablets) is 11.99 at the pharmacy I work at, and we're expensive.
 
2012-09-12 09:49:07 PM  

knowless: I'm not going to bother with citations, but many countries have opted not to fluoridate their water any longer after initially doing so because of cumulative detrimental mental and physiological effects...

germany, switzerland, finland, sweden, and japan.. and i think a few others.

There are other sources of fluoride for those who wish to ingest it, i recommend adding toothpaste to your coffee, great for the teeth.

there was a study released in 2011 which showed pretty conclusively that constant low doses of fluoride caused measurable decreases in both learning and memory..

but the refining companies need to sell you there toxic waste otherwise they have to pay to dispose of it. this works out much better for them.

i farking hate portland, but even they can't be stupid enough to actually do it. no farking reason.


And Harvard scientists said this week that those studies are flawed since foreign countries used dosages 10 times the recommended safe dosage.
 
2012-09-12 09:55:47 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Conspiracy nutjobs making wild unsubstantiated claims about the danger of fluoride.

/go have a big old glass of tapwater, deniers. You weren't using that brain anyway.


Everybody could stand a hundred big old glasses of tap water a year. They ought to have them, too.
 
2012-09-12 09:58:06 PM  

Tennozan: The_Cisco_Kid: Portland water is naaasty.

Baloo Uriza: Portland will show some sanity, for once, if they continue to reject flouride pollution in the drinking water.

Sorry, but the vote was with the city council - 5 people got to vote this time - not the city folk.

The popular vote would have likely rejected it - again.


I'm one step ahead of you. Watch your March ballot. I'm pretty sure this will be forced to the ballot, and March is the next election still open for new business.
 
2012-09-12 09:58:23 PM  

BronyMedic: Honest Bender: That's nice. I'd still like to stick to plain water, thanks. As an intelligent, educated man, I'm capable of making my own decisions. Please stop forcing your decisions on me.

Good for you. Go dig a well and pump your own water. Or, barring that, I have the perfect place for you.

[www.state.gov image 300x323]

Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy living in a society where certain health measures are taken for the betterment of everyone - like public water fluoridation, mass vaccination, and inspections of food and drugs - that pose no or little, reasonable risks to others.

RoyBatty: What is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity?

Since you and TheBeastOfYuccaFlats seem to agree this thread will bring in not just anti-fluoride advocates but people that believe in a whole range of conspiracy theories, am I correct to assume you believe that we should all support water supply fluoride, high carb low fat diets, the dread impact of anthropocentric global warming, and that nothing happened at Roswell? All of these things are the same right? Disbelief in one must mean the person disbelieves all of them.

More seriously, what is your personal belief concerning the superiority of low carb high fat diets versus high carb low fat diets in terms of lowering obesity, and if you happen to think low carb diets might be superior when the scientific consensus and government driven consensus is that high carb diets are better, what is the difference between the scientific consensus supporting low fat diets and the scientific consensus supporting public water supply fluoridation?

Frankly, I wouldn't be qualified to answer that. Unlike Fluoridation of Public Water, or Anti-Vaccination, I haven't really examined the evidence supporting either of those diets. I do know, based on the nutrition classes I have taken at the undergrad level, that diet is something that needs to ...


I'm powered by rage. Carbs are for mortals.
 
2012-09-12 10:00:15 PM  
Wow. I actually did notice the unusually terrible teeth when I was in Oregon but I thought it was just from meth. Now I'm sold on the benefits of fluoride. Good work, Portland!
 
2012-09-12 10:06:37 PM  
Votes in, they passed it.
 
2012-09-12 10:09:43 PM  

mgshamster: Link


That guy is wrong in so many ways, but lets start with calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride being two completely different things. He just refers to them both as fluoride, so should go chug some uranium hexafluoride tainted water to show us all how safe fluoride is. Calcium fluoride is what is found naturally. Sodium fluoride is a toxic industrial by-product from aluminum and fertilizer production, and aside from being put in water supplies under the shaky pretense it helps prevent cavities, is the primary ingredient in rat poison and many insecticides.

SN1987a goes boom: This took all of 2 minutes to find.


That's from the 50's, when industries who had lots of it as a by-product were promoting it as the best thing ever to put in your water. You can also find studies 'proving' DDT and thalidomide were harmless from the same period. Thankfully we've moved on since then. There's now mountains of evidence water fluoridation has no positive effect on tooth decay. The vast majority of people in the world do not drink fluoridated water, and have the same cavity rates. In fact, drinking enough water with sodium fluoride in it will cause something called fluorosis, which means your teeth turn brown and rot. So it has a confirmed detrimental effect, and questionable benefits.
 
2012-09-12 10:17:06 PM  

ambercat: Wow. I actually did notice the unusually terrible teeth when I was in Oregon but I thought it was just from meth.


Actually, it's the meth. Stay away from the meth, some fluoride mouthwash and actually brush, you can have nice teeth in Portland and get the benefits of fluoride without having to drink it.
 
2012-09-12 10:19:02 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Honest Bender: How about you just provide me with water and, if I feel like fluoride is something I'd like to ingest, I'll add it myself.

Really. You're going to just casually go grab yourself a highly dangerous industrial chemistry, run it through your personal million-dollar refining apparatus using your advanced knowledge of engineering chemistry to convert it to the benign form used in water systems, personally dose it at the proper concentration, and then make sure it's mixed proportionally into all your food so the dosage is low and continuous instead of periodic.

I assume then you're going to head off to work by building your own interstate highway system by hand using concrete you reacted from quicklime you hauled from portland or mississippi on your own back and fly ash from your personal steel reactor, then driving over it on a car you constructed yourself out of wood that runs by burning your own farts.


Why not just let him find and get his own water in the first place? It should be an individual's choice to drill a well or find other sources of water, then his own choice whether or not it should have microbes or contaminants removed from it (and how he wants to go about doing that), etc. Stop trampling on our freedom.

/am I doing it right?
//Not libertarian enough?
 
2012-09-12 10:37:00 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: mgshamster: Link

That guy is wrong in so many ways, but lets start with calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride being two completely different things. He just refers to them both as fluoride, so should go chug some uranium hexafluoride tainted water to show us all how safe fluoride is. Calcium fluoride is what is found naturally. Sodium fluoride is a toxic industrial by-product from aluminum and fertilizer production, and aside from being put in water supplies under the shaky pretense it helps prevent cavities, is the primary ingredient in rat poison and many insecticides.

SN1987a goes boom: This took all of 2 minutes to find.

That's from the 50's, when industries who had lots of it as a by-product were promoting it as the best thing ever to put in your water. You can also find studies 'proving' DDT and thalidomide were harmless from the same period. Thankfully we've moved on since then. There's now mountains of evidence water fluoridation has no positive effect on tooth decay. The vast majority of people in the world do not drink fluoridated water, and have the same cavity rates. In fact, drinking enough water with sodium fluoride in it will cause something called fluorosis, which means your teeth turn brown and rot. So it has a confirmed detrimental effect, and questionable benefits.


That would be incredibly relevant, if only sodium fluoride hadn't been swapped out for less expensive alternatives in most areas back in the 1980s. Whoops! Or if the lethal dose wasn't measured in grams for humans (with the high end of fluoride concentration in the U.S. capped at 1.2 mg/L). Why yes, that's more than 250 gallons ingested for 20% of a lethal dose (5-10 grams according to the WHO, IIRC). The false parallel to DDT was a particularly menacing touch, since EVERYONE knows that it was almost used instead of fluorides to improve dental health. We'll humor you, though, and throw out the paper from the '50s. Now, how do you address all of the work since, say, 1970 that ALSO backs up water fluoridation as harmless?
 
2012-09-12 11:24:17 PM  
Eh, im still moving there next year. I"ve had enough of Montana after 32 years, this single bachelor needs a change and a hipster full city is what I need.
 
2012-09-12 11:27:37 PM  

Indubitably: Which is a fundamental principle of your internal functioning as a human entity/mind/soul? Water or natural gas?


I fart. A lot. And only drink Coca-Cola. So...natural gas?
 
2012-09-13 12:00:07 AM  
I really don't care if there are benefits to fluoride in PUBLIC water. Governments have ZERO right to force me to ingest medication that I may or may not want. If you want fluoride go get some. Most pharmacies give it away. For nothing. Free. Either that, or buy that toothpaste that has fluoride already in it. You know, like, 90% of toothpastes that are sold. Also, if you read the label of those fluoride toothpastes, it very specifically says DO NOT SWALLOW. Because of the fluoride. It's a poison.
 
2012-09-13 12:00:27 AM  

Baloo Uriza: ambercat: Wow. I actually did notice the unusually terrible teeth when I was in Oregon but I thought it was just from meth.

Actually, it's the meth. Stay away from the meth, some fluoride mouthwash and actually brush, you can have nice teeth in Portland and get the benefits of fluoride without having to drink it.


Your bitterness about Portland is almost laughable. Have you ever considered that you're the problem? It reminds me of another saying "wherever you go, there you are".
 
2012-09-13 12:04:17 AM  

Amos Quito: fusillade762: TheHighlandHowler: accumulation of fluoride in the human pineal gland

A calcified pineal gland prevents you from communicating with the trans-dimensional self-transforming machine elves.

So that's it!

Is there a cure?


Yes.

3.bp.blogspot.com

But it may have some... side effects.

www.spikednation.com
 
2012-09-13 12:06:14 AM  

Devo: Ask your dentist. THey will 99 out of 100 times recommend flouridated water.


I've asked three dentists which toothpaste they'd recommend to keep my teeth healthy, and all three gave the same answer: "It doesn't matter. Just make sure it has fluoride in it."

/Grandma had to get her teeth replaced at 40. (no fluoridated water)
//Mom just got her uppers denturized at 62. (no fluoridated water until age 30)
//I gots all mah teef, no cavities at age 47 (fluoridated water most of my life)
 
2012-09-13 12:09:36 AM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: Have you ever considered that you're the problem? It reminds me of another saying "wherever you go, there you are".


Yeah, well, I changed that variable. I'm back home. Portland's still unlivable and I'm glad I'm not there.
 
2012-09-13 12:11:19 AM  
Hey I live in Portland... I need a farker portlandian girlfriend.... can have bad teeth.
 
2012-09-13 12:16:11 AM  

WordyGrrl: Devo: Ask your dentist. THey will 99 out of 100 times recommend flouridated water.

I've asked three dentists which toothpaste they'd recommend to keep my teeth healthy, and all three gave the same answer: "It doesn't matter. Just make sure it has fluoride in it."

/Grandma had to get her teeth replaced at 40. (no fluoridated water)
//Mom just got her uppers denturized at 62. (no fluoridated water until age 30)
//I gots all mah teef, no cavities at age 47 (fluoridated water most of my life)


Cool story but people have the option to get their own dang fluoride and not force everyone to have it.
 
2012-09-13 12:34:04 AM  

peeledpeas: WordyGrrl: Devo: Ask your dentist. THey will 99 out of 100 times recommend flouridated water.

I've asked three dentists which toothpaste they'd recommend to keep my teeth healthy, and all three gave the same answer: "It doesn't matter. Just make sure it has fluoride in it."

/Grandma had to get her teeth replaced at 40. (no fluoridated water)
//Mom just got her uppers denturized at 62. (no fluoridated water until age 30)
//I gots all mah teef, no cavities at age 47 (fluoridated water most of my life)

Cool story but people have the option to get their own dang fluoride and not force everyone to have it.


how bootstrappy
 
2012-09-13 12:45:14 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-09-13 12:47:25 AM  

peeledpeas: Cool story but people have the option to get their own dang fluoride and not force everyone to have it.


So what do you do with naturally fluoridated water? The gov't reduces it to safe levels (the same levels they fluoridate other waters up to). Would you rather just have them leave it alone, because of "gov't interference" or because "it's natural"?
 
2012-09-13 12:51:02 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 689x655]


Water is poisonous in the right amounts and via the right route of ingestion (try breathing it, or drinking a entire gallon within 5 minutes).

Yes, 98% fluoride is toxic. The amount in water is around 0.1-4 parts per million.

That's parts per million, as in 1 drop in 50 liters of water.

Slightly less than 98%,

/Dose makes the poison
 
2012-09-13 01:49:29 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: That guy is wrong in so many ways, but lets start with calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride being two completely different things. He just refers to them both as fluoride, so should go chug some uranium hexafluoride tainted water to show us all how safe fluoride is. Calcium fluoride is what is found naturally. Sodium fluoride is a toxic industrial by-product from aluminum and fertilizer production, and aside from being put in water supplies under the shaky pretense it helps prevent cavities, is the primary ingredient in rat poison and many insecticides.


Learn some basic chemistry. Sodium and Calcium both have ionic bonds to fluoride, and both dissociate in water. Sodium fluoride dissociates much more into sodium ions (necessary for life) and fluoride ions, which is the part we want to add. Thinking that sodium ions are dangerous because they're somehow "industrial" is incredibly silly. Your body and all of chemistry does not care where it comes from, and there's no difference between "natural" and "industrial" sodium or fluoride; they're both elements.

Conversely, uranium hexafluoride forms covalent bonds, not ionic. And it's dangerous because of the uranium, not the fluoride.

And most importantly, the dose makes the poison. The levels we're looking at are not dangerous. Please don't be like one of those idiots that claim fluoride is dangerous because some bottle that is 98% sodium fluoride is shown to be toxic.
 
2012-09-13 01:50:50 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 689x655]


notice that 98% thing?

COMMUNISM!
 
2012-09-13 03:00:36 AM  

mgshamster: Clemkadidlefark: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 689x655]

Water is poisonous in the right amounts and via the right route of ingestion (try breathing it, or drinking a entire gallon within 5 minutes).

Yes, 98% fluoride is toxic. The amount in water is around 0.1-4 parts per million.

That's parts per million, as in 1 drop in 50 liters of water.

Slightly less than 98%,

/Dose makes the poison


Perhaps the Fluoride Derp Squad also believes in homeopathy.
 
2012-09-13 03:12:41 AM  
If this ruins the great tasting beer we have in Portland IM GOING TO FLIP SHIAT.
 
2012-09-13 03:48:01 AM  

fluffybunny: Shostie: [www.atomicexpress.net image 640x358]

[fc02.deviantart.net image 850x477]

Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.


That's Kubrick lampooning the John Birch Society, who are anti-flouride. The Koch brothers are descended from John Birchers, so so it's not surprising it's part of the teabagger platform.
 
2012-09-13 08:30:58 AM  

TheTrashcanMan: If this ruins the great tasting beer we have in Portland IM GOING TO FLIP SHIAT.


And then you'll riot, set shiat on fire, and break windows in downtown Seattle? Its what portland people usually do to show how much they're pissed off about something.
 
2012-09-13 09:02:29 AM  

mgshamster: So what do you do with naturally fluoridated water? The gov't reduces it to safe levels (the same levels they fluoridate other waters up to). Would you rather just have them leave it alone, because of "gov't interference" or because "it's natural"?


Just remove it entirely.
 
2012-09-13 11:43:00 AM  

Baloo Uriza: mgshamster: So what do you do with naturally fluoridated water? The gov't reduces it to safe levels (the same levels they fluoridate other waters up to). Would you rather just have them leave it alone, because of "gov't interference" or because "it's natural"?

Just remove it entirely.


That's nearly impossible. We can remove enough of it to where it's below the LOEL (and fairly far beneath the LOEL, at that), but removing anything entirely is exceedingly difficult. We even have regulations to remove some chemicals to zero, and it never gets achieved because we simply do not have the technology to do it.

Let's go with some terminology in the clean drinking water world:

LOEL (or LOAEL): Lowest Observable (Adverse) Effect Level
MCL: Maximum Contamination Level
MCLG: Maximum Contamination Level Goal
MRDL: Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level
MRDLG: Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level Goal

The LOEL (or LOAEL) is determined by available research. This is basically toxicity studies done by researchers who are looking at the chemical for some other reason, such as animal studies for medical research or some university researcher wanting to know more about the effects of a specific chemical. They perform a standard dose-response experiment with some animal (usually rodents, but other animals have been used; sometimes humans) and the highest dose which produces no observable effect is labelled the LOAEL. From there, government regulators (who are typically just as much an expert in this area as the researchers; I know of one department that only hires toxicologists with a Ph.D.) determine their estimated LOAEL by including uncertainty factors (UF) into the available data. This means dividing the reported LOAEL by anywhere from 3 to 1,000, depending on available data. If only rodent studies are done, it might be a 10 UF or a 100 UF, because we have to translate the data from rodent to human; this is known as the interspecies uncertainty factor. If it's only done on one sex, there's an additional UF added in. There's always an UF included, because even if we have good data on humans (with both sexes), we rarely have data on the particularly sensitive members of society, such as pregnant women, children, the elderly, and sick people.

The MLC is the official Maximum Contamination Level for a specific chemical based on the available research. The MCLG is the official goal, which is always at or below the MCL. For example, all carcinogens (cancer causing agents) have a MCLG of zero. It is rarely achieved. We simply do not have the ability to reduce a contaminant to zero. We try, but it's very very difficult with current technology.

Sometimes, in order to remove a contaminant, we have to use disinfectants. For example, to remove certain microorganisms (bacteria, viruses), disinfectants are required. Therefore, we also have a MRDL or Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level. Because some disinfectants break down in water or break down as a part of the chemistry for disinfecting, we also have a MRDL for the disinfectant byproducts. For example, in some places, ozone is used as a disinfectant (I'm not sure where). If there is any bromide in the water, it will react with ozone to create a byproduct called bromite - a carcinogen. The MRDL for bromite is 0.01 mg/L (or 0.01 parts per millions aka ppm), while the MRDLG is zero.

Fluoride is not a carcinogen, so it will never have a MCLG of zero. Its MCL is currently set to 4ppm (or 4 mg/L), and its MCLG is also set to 4ppm. Current available data shows no adverse health effects at or below these levels. However, current research does show positive health effects around these levels, which is why we add it in to some water systems. Of course, adding fluoride is not a requirement - the decision to add is by the local municipality. 

TL;DR - It's stuff about drinking water regulations and terminology.
 
2012-09-13 12:05:10 PM  

TheTrashcanMan: If this ruins the great tasting beer we have in Portland IM GOING TO FLIP SHIAT.

It won't. At least, Widmer doesn't think so:

"It's a big deal for us," says Brady Walen, Widmer's communications manager. "We've been asked the question by brewers."

The company has come to the conclusion that the level of fluoride proposed "is not going to impact the aroma or flavor of the beer, nor will it impact the process," Walen says. "We're not expecting any changes from the brewing side or the final product either." 
 
2012-09-13 02:53:21 PM  

mgshamster: Clemkadidlefark: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 689x655]

Water is poisonous in the right amounts and via the right route of ingestion (try breathing it, or drinking a entire gallon within 5 minutes).

Yes, 98% fluoride is toxic. The amount in water is around 0.1-4 parts per million.

That's parts per million, as in 1 drop in 50 liters of water.

Slightly less than 98%,

/Dose makes the poison


So dilute the poison and it is good for you... I see that makes sense
 
2012-09-13 03:25:03 PM  

spentshells: So dilute the poison and it is good for you... I see that makes sense



Like someone wrote earlier, it's all in the dose.

There was a story a while back of a college student who almost died from ingesting too much soy sauce! Lots of things that are good for you in the appropriate amounts are harmful when you take too much, and viceversa.

Ingest too many vitamins, or too much oxygen, or even too much water, and you can die. But in the appropriate dose, they're good for you.
 
2012-09-13 04:24:27 PM  

spentshells: mgshamster: Clemkadidlefark: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 689x655]

Water is poisonous in the right amounts and via the right route of ingestion (try breathing it, or drinking a entire gallon within 5 minutes).

Yes, 98% fluoride is toxic. The amount in water is around 0.1-4 parts per million.

That's parts per million, as in 1 drop in 50 liters of water.

Slightly less than 98%,

/Dose makes the poison

So dilute the poison and it is good for you... I see that makes sense


Well, yes. Exactly what GilRuiz1 said. In fact, that's how all of pharmacy works. All of natural herbs, too. You have to get in the proper dose range for medicine to be effective. Too little and there's no effect. Too much and it becomes a poison.

Some chemicals don't have a medicinal purpose that we're aware of. For those, there is only two categories: ineffective and toxic. For chemicals that have a beneficial effect, there are three categories: ineffective, medicinal, and toxic.

Of course, there's different categories of toxic. Some are only slightly annoying, such as causing nausea or eye irritation. Others are more dangerous, such as methanol causing blindness if consumed. Some cause cancer, and we consider those to be some of the most dangerous. Others, such as ricin or botulinum can cause death in very low doses. But heck, even botulinum - the most potent toxin on the planet - has some beneficial effects; it's the key ingredient of the Botox cosmetic procedure.

It all depends on the specific chemical.
 
2012-09-13 05:10:08 PM  

spentshells: So dilute the poison and it is good for you... I see that makes sense


Uh, yeah. That's pretty much how everything in the world works when it comes to pharmacology and toxicology. Potassium and Sodium are both lethal in high concentrations , but are also essential nutrients in their Chloride forms. Digitalis is a lethal poison, but at the right concentrations, it can be used to treat heart arrhythmias. Botulinium is one of the deadliest toxins on earth, but in the right concentration, it can be used to treat multiple conditions and cosmetic problems.
 
2012-09-13 05:11:46 PM  

peeledpeas: WordyGrrl: Devo: Ask your dentist. THey will 99 out of 100 times recommend flouridated water.

I've asked three dentists which toothpaste they'd recommend to keep my teeth healthy, and all three gave the same answer: "It doesn't matter. Just make sure it has fluoride in it."

/Grandma had to get her teeth replaced at 40. (no fluoridated water)
//Mom just got her uppers denturized at 62. (no fluoridated water until age 30)
//I gots all mah teef, no cavities at age 47 (fluoridated water most of my life)

Cool story but people have the option to get their own dang fluoride and not force everyone to have it.


Just as they have the option to purchase bottles of non-fluoridated water for their daily hydration needs. So what if their teeth rot? They've made their point!
 
2012-09-13 06:16:45 PM  
Why should a select group of people be excluded from the public water supply because someone feels the need to medicate the population? It's not governments role to make sure my teeth are good. That is MY business. We don't have fluoridated water here. Both my wife and I have lived here since we were children. She has perfect teeth while mine are riddled with fillings. Yeah, I'm not sure how to explain that either.
 
2012-09-13 07:31:55 PM  

peeledpeas: Why should a select group of people be excluded from the public water supply because someone feels the need to medicate the population? It's not governments role to make sure my teeth are good. That is MY business. We don't have fluoridated water here. Both my wife and I have lived here since we were children. She has perfect teeth while mine are riddled with fillings. Yeah, I'm not sure how to explain that either.


Then you're not being forced to consume it, are you?

It's up to individual municipalities. If the people in a specific area don't like it, they can either move, purchase bottled water (I did that for years; in 5 gallon quantities, it cost me $0.35 per gallon), or set up a vote to have it removed for their local area.

See, that's the whole part of a government of the people - the people can join in and makes things happen.

Besides, until we get universal dental health care, this is the best we can do to help people who otherwise couldn't afford fluoride treatment, which, as others have noted, is about half of the population. Of course, we could go the route of other countries, and instead of fluoridating the water, we could fluoridate milk or salt (much like we iodize our salt - you know, with iodine, a halogen like fluorine).
 
2012-09-13 08:06:30 PM  

mgshamster: peeledpeas: Why should a select group of people be excluded from the public water supply because someone feels the need to medicate the population? It's not governments role to make sure my teeth are good. That is MY business. We don't have fluoridated water here. Both my wife and I have lived here since we were children. She has perfect teeth while mine are riddled with fillings. Yeah, I'm not sure how to explain that either.

Then you're not being forced to consume it, are you?

It's up to individual municipalities. If the people in a specific area don't like it, they can either move, purchase bottled water (I did that for years; in 5 gallon quantities, it cost me $0.35 per gallon), or set up a vote to have it removed for their local area.

See, that's the whole part of a government of the people - the people can join in and makes things happen.

Besides, until we get universal dental health care, this is the best we can do to help people who otherwise couldn't afford fluoride treatment, which, as others have noted, is about half of the population. Of course, we could go the route of other countries, and instead of fluoridating the water, we could fluoridate milk or salt (much like we iodize our salt - you know, with iodine, a halogen like fluorine).



And you missed my point entirely. Whether or not people have bad teeth in a certain area is anecdotal evidence at best. Like I said, my wife's teeth are perfect. Mine are not. No fluoride in the water. Why doesn't she have teeth riddled with holes like me? We don't have it here because we keep voting it down. That doesn't stop the criticism, though. I'm all about government of the people, by the people and for the people but when my neighbors get together and vote that I have to consume something that I don't want, that's when I draw the line. THEY can go get fluoride if they want it. I shouldn't have to go buy water. At least with the salt, I have the choice to buy it or not, even though iodide is a nutrient instead of a poison. Maybe we ought to add stimulants to the water get fatties to exercise more.
 
2012-09-13 11:59:18 PM  

peeledpeas: Whether or not people have bad teeth in a certain area is anecdotal evidence at best.


You know, besides 70+ years of research, it's totally anecdotal. PubMed only has 5,958 published articles on it. Here, I'll even link you to the 301 free articles, so you don't have to pay anything to see the research. Remember, these are sorted by date, not by relevance. Feel free to browse through the literature! Be careful with confirmation bias, which is where one ignores evidence which they don't agree with and only counts evidence which matches their preconception. Link

peeledpeas: Like I said, my wife's teeth are perfect. Mine are not. No fluoride in the water. Why doesn't she have teeth riddled with holes like me?


I'm not a dentist, so I can't answer that. Ask your dentist, and he or she will likely have an answer. I'm a toxicologist, so I can speak on the toxicity and safety of chemicals.

peeledpeas: We don't have it here because we keep voting it down. That doesn't stop the criticism, though


Of course not! There's always going to be disagreement! Regardless of who is right and who is wrong. Personally, I am of the opinion that we should base our policy on research as best we can, rather than just wishes. If the research says that fluoridation is actually bad, then we shouldn't be doing it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of research shows it to be beneficial and not harmful, and the small amount of research that shows it to be harmful is either lacking in quality appropriate for scientific work or looks at doses higher than what we use in the US (for example, the recent Harvard paper looking at fluoridation in China, and the doses looked at are not only higher than what the US uses, but uses our range as the baseline for what's ok to use).

peeledpeas: I'm all about government of the people, by the people and for the people but when my neighbors get together and vote that I have to consume something that I don't want, that's when I draw the line. THEY can go get fluoride if they want it. I shouldn't have to go buy water. At least with the salt, I have the choice to buy it or not


Then bring to light what other countries do and propose that idea! Likely the people in your area don't even realize what other countries do, or perhaps even more likely, they've only heard opponent claim that other countries have banned water fluoridation and the fact that they fluoridate salt or milk is never brought up. By the way, the countries that fluoridate their salt have it mandated by the government.

peeledpeas: even though iodide is a nutrient instead of a poison.


Seriously? You're going to pull this card out again? How many times do we have to say the dose makes the poison?

Shazam999: dose makes the poison


BronyMedic: Dose Makes the Poison


mgshamster: Dose makes the poison


mgshamster: dose makes the poison


Is this such a difficult concept to understand? If so, please let me know, and I'll be happy to explain it further.

peeledpeas: Maybe we ought to add stimulants to the water get fatties to exercise more.


We don't have any chemicals that reduce weight at doses that are safe and have no dangerous side effects. There's also the potential problem of people who are underweight consuming the treated water and losing even more weight. That can be dangerous. Comparatively, water fluoridation is at doses which reduce tooth decay while producing no dangerous side effects (the only potential side effect is slight discoloration of teeth).
 
2012-09-14 06:19:42 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Indubitably: Which is a fundamental principle of your internal functioning as a human entity/mind/soul? Water or natural gas?

I fart. A lot. And only drink Coca-Cola. So...natural gas?


And what's Coke's principle ingredient?

But you already knew that, right?

;)
 
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