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(The New York Times)   Two US embassies attacked and the craven diplomatic response to it would seem to be the sort of thing that warrants New York Times front-page coverage, yes? Not if it crowds out a Romney hit-piece it's not   (nytimes.com) divider line 399
    More: Obvious, United States, CTU, embassy, Benjamin Netanyahu, warrants, State Senator Roy J. McDonald, military strike  
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4133 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Sep 2012 at 10:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-12 11:47:27 AM

MurphyMurphy: This is why terrorism must be addressed as a matter of law enforcement not one of military (war) response. The difference may seem subtle but it makes all the difference in the world.

Until the heads in this nation wrap themselves around that fact we will chase our tails pausing only the times we get lucky and chomp down biting ourselves.

And the same goes for any "war on (insert abstract idea here)". It's both incorrect and counterproductive.


Its both. We have decimated Al Qaeda militarily in areas where we can't get them to arrest them. There is a reason they choose remote shiatholes to hole up in. Unfortunately, this means killing innocents with the bad guys.

But we do need to do good intelligence work to track down and find these guys and arrest, if possible, and kill, if not. And, btw, this is exactly what is happening.
 
2012-09-12 11:47:32 AM

Geotpf: If it wasn't order by a nation or somebody acting on behalf of a nation, it's a criminal act, not an act of war.


The 9/11 AUMF was an exercise of war powers against a non-state actor.
 
2012-09-12 11:49:34 AM

MurphyMurphy: Wicked Chinchilla: Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.

This is why terrorism must be addressed as a matter of law enforcement not one of military (war) response. The difference may seem subtle but it makes all the difference in the world.

Until the heads in this nation wrap themselves around that fact we will chase our tails pausing only the times we get lucky and chomp down biting ourselves.

And the same goes for any "war on (insert abstract idea here)". It's both incorrect and counterproductive.


I absolutely agree, unless said terrorism is ordered by, or in any way supported by, a government. For example, the Tailban and al Queda were close to one in the same, so 9/11 was an act of war by the de facto government of Afghanistan and an invasion of such was absolutely justified, IMHO.

There's no indication that the Libyian or Egyptian governments supported these attacks, so that caveat doesn't apply in this case.
 
2012-09-12 11:49:52 AM

MurphyMurphy: Wicked Chinchilla: Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.

This is why terrorism must be addressed as a matter of law enforcement not one of military (war) response. The difference may seem subtle but it makes all the difference in the world.

Until the heads in this nation wrap themselves around that fact we will chase our tails pausing only the times we get lucky and chomp down biting ourselves.

And the same goes for any "war on (insert abstract idea here)". It's both incorrect and counterproductive.


Totally agree.
 
2012-09-12 11:50:37 AM

Somacandra:  

The Front Page of the NYT in Submitter's link. I see nothing anywhere about it.


Man newspapers are the craziest things, they actually take time to be printed and delivered, so sometimes they miss news that happens late.
 
2012-09-12 11:50:44 AM
www.eodas.com
I'm a drone
 
2012-09-12 11:51:46 AM
www.eodas.com
I'm a drone
 
2012-09-12 11:52:23 AM
dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com
Suck my dick
 
2012-09-12 11:53:10 AM

Wicked Chinchilla: Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.

Thats it.


But it shouldn't be that hard to figure out who the clerics are who stir up the shiat. They're not exactly shy about themselves. If we feel like being nice, we can let them know that they have one chance to cut the crap before Mr. Drone stops by.
 
2012-09-12 11:53:32 AM
dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com
I'm a drone

//Meant to do that in one post, accidentally hit submit
 
2012-09-12 11:53:57 AM

sprawl15: Geotpf: If it wasn't order by a nation or somebody acting on behalf of a nation, it's a criminal act, not an act of war.

The 9/11 AUMF was an exercise of war powers against a non-state actor.


See my previous comment. Also, there may be situations where there is no effective government and it is not possible to arrest, try, and convict those who commit such (but it may be possible to kill them). Also, just because something isn't an act of war doesn't mean using the military to counter such isn't appropiate.

However, if somebody can be arrested and tried, they should be.
 
2012-09-12 11:55:33 AM

bartink: Its both. We have decimated Al Qaeda militarily in areas where we can't get them to arrest them. There is a reason they choose remote shiatholes to hole up in. Unfortunately, this means killing innocents with the bad guys.

But we do need to do good intelligence work to track down and find these guys and arrest, if possible, and kill, if not. And, btw, this is exactly what is happening.



I don't think you understand the subject matter here.

You can use our military to execute law enforcement acts. That's really all you can use overseas and we've been doing it for years. Thus the term 'police action'.

War is something you declare on a nation.. or at the very least on a power structure.

You can declare war on Canada, you can declare war on Al Qaeda, you cannot however declare war on terrorism, drugs, bad feelings or stupidity (though I really really wish we could on that last one). It's completely incorrect by all definitions... you'd be much more accurate declaring Jihad (which is what many would have us do under the guise of the word 'war')

It's all in the rhetoric. Once we get that right we can move on to fixing our problems not making them bigger. This is assuming that is the goal of everyone in our nation/government (which depressingly is likely an incorrect assumption).
 
2012-09-12 11:55:49 AM

Gulper Eel: But it shouldn't be that hard to figure out who the clerics are who stir up the shiat. They're not exactly shy about themselves. If we feel like being nice, we can let them know that they have one chance to cut the crap before Mr. Drone stops by.


Not necessary. The Libyans themselves should be given a chance to do it themselves. If they won't, then cut diplomatic ties with them. This terrorism happened within their borders. Until there is evidence that they are seeking a safe haven to export terroristic acts, drone strikes are counter-productive and unnecessary.
 
2012-09-12 11:56:21 AM
Fark is going to shiat.

DIAF, tardmitter.
 
2012-09-12 11:56:58 AM

Gulper Eel: But it shouldn't be that hard to figure out who the clerics are who stir up the shiat. They're not exactly shy about themselves. If we feel like being nice, we can let them know that they have one chance to cut the crap before Mr. Drone stops by.


Is your argument here that Obama is being too shy about using drone strikes?
 
2012-09-12 11:57:58 AM

Geotpf: See my previous comment.


Your previous comment appears to make the same mistake: that acts of war can only occur between state actors.

Geotpf: Also, just because something isn't an act of war doesn't mean using the military to counter such isn't appropiate.


I'm not talking about the value of military action.
 
2012-09-12 11:58:50 AM

MurphyMurphy: I don't think you understand the subject matter here.


rereading, that came off as snarky. Not how I meant it.

Just meant to say I think maybe our wires got crossed. I probably didn't explain what I meant clearly enough first time around.
 
2012-09-12 12:00:08 PM

Publikwerks: [dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com image 800x433]
I'm a drone

//Meant to do that in one post, accidentally hit submit


I was anxiously awaiting the ending!
 
2012-09-12 12:00:22 PM

sprawl15: Geotpf: See my previous comment.

Your previous comment appears to make the same mistake: that acts of war can only occur between state actors.

Geotpf: Also, just because something isn't an act of war doesn't mean using the military to counter such isn't appropiate.

I'm not talking about the value of military action.


That seems to be a widely held belief.
 
2012-09-12 12:01:00 PM
I'm just going to re-post this.

bdub77: So let's see if we can sort the timeline out as close as possible:

- A Jewish director, Sam Bacile (More like Im Becile), a California real estate developer who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, wrote and directed a movie that depicts Muhammad as a pedo/womanizer/fraud. Which is probably true but let's be honest, an asshole thing to do.

- This movie was bankrolled by over 100 jewish donors and was promoted by Terry Jones, who if anyone has not heard the name before is a 'Christian' asshole who has incited international violence in the past and was on the Secret Service watch list.

- A 13-minute trailer for the film was first uploaded to YouTube in July, but did not receive much attention.

- A week ago the trailer got translated into Arabic and reposted on the same YouTube channel. Things get interesting-er.

- All of a sudden, super butthurt by Islamists as they start seeing the trailer.

- There's a protest last night at the Libyan embassy. There were obviously some security problems because some of the protesters were in fact terrorists from the Ansar al-Shari'ah organization.

- They got into the embassy and killed a bunch of people, including the US ambassador.

- The Egyptian embassy, also facing protests and not wanting to be murdered, denounced the hatred that was directed at Islam, obviously an attempt to defuse the situation there. "The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims - as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions," the embassy said in a statement published online.

- Mitt Romney, who knows nothing about international politics but is running for President and sees this as a chance to attack the president on foreign policy, said "I'm outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi," and went on to say, "It's disgraceful that the Obama administration's Weeners was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks." Which is just a bunch of spin.

- The US government said what Egypt said was not an official US stance.

- Hillary clarified the US's position and said "Some have sought to justify this vicious behavior as a response to inflammatory material posted on the Internet. The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But let me be clear: There is never any justification for violent acts of this kind."

- Some newspapers picked up on the killings late and didn't have time to get them to press.

And probably somewhere in the background some Israelis are sitting back in the aftermath of the attacks and evilly twiddling their thumbs.


Then I'm going to post this: Bush Administration on 2006 Danish Cartoons: "We Certainly Understand Why Muslims Would Find These Images Offensive"

And then I'm going to post this: fark these murderous farks, fark those bigoted filmmakers and fark Romney for being an asshole about all of this.
 
2012-09-12 12:01:20 PM
Why can't they report the news before it happens? After it's happened it isn't really news anymore.
 
2012-09-12 12:02:58 PM
RIP Vile Rat
 
2012-09-12 12:03:07 PM

Geotpf: I absolutely agree, unless said terrorism is ordered by, or in any way supported by, a government. For example, the Tailban and al Queda were close to one in the same, so 9/11 was an act of war by the de facto government of Afghanistan and an invasion of such was absolutely justified, IMHO.

There's no indication that the Libyian or Egyptian governments supported these attacks, so that caveat doesn't apply in this case.


There is, however, a question of what the respective governments are planning to do about it. If they fail to respond with their own law enforcement, it will look like tacit approval--and a betrayal of the diplomatic agreements to keep embassies safe. The host countries should feel disgraced they allowed this to happen, and they should definitely be finding and punishing people. If they don't, and aren't ashamed...
 
2012-09-12 12:04:58 PM

Moopy Mac: Gulper Eel: Moopy Mac: Am I missing something?

"U.S Envoy to Libya Is Killed in Attack" is the top story on the front page.

That's the constantly-updating website front page.

TFA is about the print front page. And yeah, lots of people still buy the Times that way.

So what was Subby's point?


NEW YORK TIMES BAAAAAAD
LIBS BAAAAAAAD

That seems to be the main thrust of the headline
 
2012-09-12 12:05:06 PM

sigdiamond2000: Tigger: Gulper Eel: cryinoutloud: There's nothing that makes us stronger against the extremists than fighting among ourselves.

Yeah, mobthink is far more effective.

You're deriving psychological pleasure from a childish attempt to wind people up about the death of a US envoy. Doesn't it ever cross your mind to be a little less selfish than useful when something bad happens?

The problem is that he's an asshole. Assholes tend to be assholes about things.


My bad: I forget the first rule of dealing with pointless twats. They are both pointless. and twats.
 
2012-09-12 12:07:08 PM

cancon: RIP Vile Rat


Glad I'm not the only guy that knew Vile Rat. He was a great guy and died while supporting the Libyan rebels. He's a smart, brave and funny guy and now political groups are going to haul him up like a prop for things he doesn't even agree with.
 
2012-09-12 12:08:51 PM
This was the perfect opportunity for Romney to put 'EVERYTHING' behind him, put out a well-written declaration of unified support of the Obama administration.

He could, with one simple gesture, show a mountain of dignity and Presidential personality by putting country before his political motivations.

"I stand with Americans, all civilized people around the world and I stand side-by-side with the President of the United States when I say that this deplorable act of violence shall 'not' stand and we shall find justice together."

But no. No, we can't have that, now can we?
 
2012-09-12 12:09:41 PM

TabASlotB: Then I'm going to post this: Bush Administration on 2006 Danish Cartoons: "We Certainly Understand Why Muslims Would Find These Images Offensive"


Also a cowardly reaction.
 
2012-09-12 12:10:35 PM

Infernalist: "I stand with Americans, all civilized people around the world and I stand side-by-side with the President of the United States when I say that this deplorable act of violence shall 'not' stand and we shall find justice together."


RINO!
 
2012-09-12 12:11:19 PM

SlothB77: Holy shiate, the two embassy attacks didn't even make the NY Times front page? Even MSNBC is blushing at that.


I told them that "All the news that gives us fits" was a terrible slogan.
 
2012-09-12 12:12:08 PM
 
2012-09-12 12:12:20 PM
Word now is that Obama had advance knowledge of the attack but did nothing about it.
 
2012-09-12 12:13:48 PM

rufus-t-firefly: Gulper Eel: hammettman: And said events may have occured after said deadline.

The NY Daily News and the NY Post got it up just fine.

Do they have print editions produced all over the country?


Yes.
 
2012-09-12 12:16:01 PM
The Republican AM radio shows have started
They are working themselves into a lather

I here joy in the farker asking "Have the Libyans taken over the embassy yet ?"

I have nothing but contempt for Republicans now
 
2012-09-12 12:16:07 PM

Gulper Eel: Also a cowardly reaction.


So respectful and measured is cowardly now?

People that lash out emotionally and illogically at everything they perceive to threaten them are the true cowards.

Bravery is maintaining a cool head in the face of fear.

Of all the volumes I could write on what I found lacking and wrong about Bush, his response there would not be among them. I would also commend him for trying to explain to the nation the difference between all Muslims and the ones that attacked us.

Unfortunately, the cowboy bullshiat and 'war on terrorism' bits was the drowning warblegargle that muted what correct actions he made.
 
2012-09-12 12:17:33 PM
When I opened up NYTIMES.com at 7:30 ET this morning it was the top story so I don't know where subby got his screen shot.
 
2012-09-12 12:17:39 PM

Bocasio: The Republican AM radio shows have started
They are working themselves into a lather

I here joy in the farker asking "Have the Libyans taken over the embassy yet ?"
I have nothing but contempt for Republicans now


Well, considering they sent their troops to defend it now, I think thats unlikely. Just a guess.
 
2012-09-12 12:18:12 PM

Somacandra: [i.imgur.com image 348x640] 

The Front Page of the NYT in Submitter's link. I see nothing anywhere about it.


Exactly.
 
2012-09-12 12:18:18 PM

BSABSVR: Gulper Eel: Somacandra: In the heat of rapidly changing cultural conditions

Rapidly changing? Looks like their culture's still stuck somewhere around 800 AD.

I have to say that I am just thrilled, that fat f*ck Gulper Eel, located safely behind his freedom laptop is able to sternly, (but fairly) judge people who were just trying to save their lives 3,000 miles away.


According to the WPBM website, he is most certainly a fat fark.
 
2012-09-12 12:19:07 PM
I have Sunday's New Yorks Times print edition sitting on my coffee table, and I see those they haven't updated it yet with news about the attacks.

Like subby, I find newspapers almost as confusing as magnets. How the fark do they work?
 
2012-09-12 12:19:37 PM

Karma Curmudgeon: coeyagi: Kazan: fark you farking muslim extremists, and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Muhammad.

This could be Mad Fark Libs.

fark you farking Mormon extremists and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Joseph Smith.

fark you farking Nittany Lion extremists and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Jerry Sandusky.


Whoa pal. Nittany Lion here. No deification of that piece of shiat from me.

Continue with your examples....
 
2012-09-12 12:20:06 PM

MurphyMurphy: Gulper Eel: Also a cowardly reaction.

So respectful and measured is cowardly now?

People that lash out emotionally and illogically at everything they perceive to threaten them are the true cowards.

Bravery is maintaining a cool head in the face of fear.

Of all the volumes I could write on what I found lacking and wrong about Bush, his response there would not be among them. I would also commend him for trying to explain to the nation the difference between all Muslims and the ones that attacked us.

Unfortunately, the cowboy bullshiat and 'war on terrorism' bits was the drowning warblegargle that muted what correct actions he made.


Bush jr was a well-meaning moron, a gullible fool with good intentions. Once he was in office, he was led by the nose into Iraq and all manner of stupid decisions by the men that he trusted, mostly Dick Cheney.

I pity him. Eventually, time will give him the perspective to see what he did to this country and he'll finally realize just how badly he was duped and the ultimate costs to this country due to those good intentions.

There's a reason that the road to Hell is paved with them.
 
2012-09-12 12:20:26 PM
Every time someone posts about responding with violence against Muslims in general, the Islamist extremists are emboldened. You teahadists are f*cking idiots...
 
2012-09-12 12:21:27 PM
Look how happy they are people died
 
2012-09-12 12:22:00 PM
Mitt has doubled down on his derp with his news conference. Smirking like a 10 year old who thinks he's just ratted out an enemy into detention. He's farking toast. Even establishment republicans are distancing themselves from this stinking turd.
 
2012-09-12 12:22:37 PM

shotglasss: Word now is that Obama had advance knowledge of the attack but did nothing about it.


Was there a PDB like the Republican Administration had:

"Bin Laden Angry people determined to strike Egyptian embassy" ?
 
2012-09-12 12:23:26 PM

hammettman: Mitt has doubled down on his derp with his news conference. Smirking like a 10 year old who thinks he's just ratted out an enemy into detention. He's farking toast. Even establishment republicans are distancing themselves from this stinking turd.


He makes it worse, every time he comments. Total scumbag.
 
2012-09-12 12:23:57 PM
I understand the confusion. Since Fox News is the official communication channel of the Republican party and the Republican presidential candidate the expectation is that regular media channels are the mouthpiece of the Democratic party and the current administration. This, of course, also includes the expectation to regularly omit unwanted news items. Unfortunately, NYT is not quite as disciplined as Fox News and does cover news that is not always convenient to the administration.
It's an easy error to make.
 
2012-09-12 12:23:59 PM

cancon: RIP Vile Rat


Has it been confirmed that he died? Last I heard two of the victims names hadn't been released
 
2012-09-12 12:24:21 PM
and in two days, no one will care.


ZZZ
 
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