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(The New York Times)   Two US embassies attacked and the craven diplomatic response to it would seem to be the sort of thing that warrants New York Times front-page coverage, yes? Not if it crowds out a Romney hit-piece it's not   (nytimes.com ) divider line 399
    More: Obvious, United States, CTU, embassy, Benjamin Netanyahu, warrants, State Senator Roy J. McDonald, military strike  
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4142 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Sep 2012 at 10:19 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-12 11:07:22 AM  

Gulper Eel: hammettman: And said events may have occured after said deadline.

The NY Daily News and the NY Post got it up just fine.


Do they have print editions produced all over the country?
 
2012-09-12 11:07:48 AM  

someonelse: Dalrint: mrshowrules: Dalrint: Putting aside the bullshiat politics for a second...isn't attacking and killing an ambassador an act of war?

Only if it was ordered by a Nation.

Hmm. So if you had an embassy you wanted to remove or an ambassador you wanted to kill, the trick would be to quietly rally up a riot and send them in that direction.

No intent no foul, right?

Only if you don't mind a few drone strikes coming in your direction.


We shoot missiles in their general direction.
 
2012-09-12 11:08:17 AM  

Aar1012: quatchi: I just heard Obama's address on the 4 deaths.

Very presidential.

I believe I heard a journalist shout, after the speech, 'Was this an act of war?"


Against who? Do they even have a government right now?
 
2012-09-12 11:08:46 AM  

cryinoutloud: This thread looks like me with severe PMS. Keep up the good work.


I am PMSing like a mofo right now, so I got a kick out of your post. Also, SHUT THE F*CK UP AND LEAVE ME ALONE! WHO ATE ALL THE ICE CREAM, DAMMIT!
 
2012-09-12 11:09:16 AM  
It was a bunch of yahoos and hooligans, how do you declare war on them?
 
2012-09-12 11:09:38 AM  

Fart_Machine: Dalrint: mrshowrules: Dalrint: Putting aside the bullshiat politics for a second...isn't attacking and killing an ambassador an act of war?

Only if it was ordered by a Nation.

Hmm. So if you had an embassy you wanted to remove or an ambassador you wanted to kill, the trick would be to quietly rally up a riot and send them in that direction.

No intent no foul, right?

If they could prove that indeed state agents were behind the attack, no that would constitute an act of war. Can we prove this is the case here?


No, his post was a hypothetical.

Actually, the Libyan government is rather pro-US/pro-Western right now for all the help in ousting Ghaddafi and getting the government up and running. They have made statements it was a terrorist group/members of previous government.

Take it all with a grain of salt, but I would consider it exceedingly unlikely if the new Libyan government was behind this in any sense.
 
2012-09-12 11:10:41 AM  
Act of War is simply a justification for war. It does not mean war is automatically declared.

A pancake is a pancake, it does not mean you are eating breakfast at the time.
 
2012-09-12 11:11:28 AM  

Dalrint: Putting aside the bullshiat politics for a second...isn't attacking and killing an ambassador an act of war?


It would be if a government did it - it's not really clear who was responsible yet, I think.
 
2012-09-12 11:11:45 AM  

Infernalist: This instigating American preacher is going to get his idiot ass stabbed if he's not careful we're lucky.


/ftfy
/hope they find this sorry bastard OD'd in a bathhouse with 3 Thai boys
 
2012-09-12 11:11:50 AM  

cryinoutloud: DarnoKonrad: Jesus Fark is getting bad.

Can we have some more stories about this one incident, please? There's nothing that makes us stronger against the extremists than fighting among ourselves.


www.fencedude.com

Bian Zoldark approves.
/hot like the Alt Eisen's horn
 
2012-09-12 11:12:10 AM  

Gulper Eel: hammettman: And said events may have occured after said deadline.

The NY Daily News and the NY Post got it up just fine.


But the WSJ didn't. They got a small piece in the sidebar about the violence before the "big news," but that's it.

The NYT and WSJ both have national distribution. Their deadlines are probably different.

Maybe you should ask Rupert Murdoch.
 
2012-09-12 11:12:44 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Against who? Do they even have a government right now?


Never stopped the US from getting into a stupid war before (see Afghanistan).

Cable news media are creaming their jeans at the possibility to get into another pointless military conflict. It's about time, ratings have been dropping for a while and the Presidential Election is increasingly looking like a dud. Time to sacrifice some young men and women to the Sweeps Week God.
 
2012-09-12 11:13:14 AM  

Aar1012: quatchi: I just heard Obama's address on the 4 deaths.

Very presidential.

I believe I heard a "journalist" shout, after the speech, 'Was this an act of war?"


You forgot your punctuation.
 
2012-09-12 11:13:34 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Act of War is simply a justification for war. It does not mean war is automatically declared.

A pancake is a pancake, it does not mean you are eating breakfast at the time.


war is something governments wage if it's just random people doing something it is just vandalism and assault and murder
 
2012-09-12 11:13:47 AM  

bdub77: So let's see if we can sort the timeline out as close as possible:

- A Jewish director, Sam Bacile (More like Im Becile), a California real estate developer who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, wrote and directed a movie that depicts Muhammad as a pedo/womanizer/fraud. Which is probably true but let's be honest, an asshole thing to do.

- This movie was bankrolled by over 100 jewish donors and was promoted by Terry Jones, who if anyone has not heard the name before is a 'Christian' asshole who has incited international violence in the past and was on the Secret Service watch list.

- A 13-minute trailer for the film was first uploaded to YouTube in July, but did not receive much attention.

- A week ago the trailer got translated into Arabic and reposted on the same YouTube channel. Things get interesting-er.

- All of a sudden, super butthurt by Islamists as they start seeing the trailer.

- There's a protest last night at the Libyan embassy. There were obviously some security problems because some of the protesters were in fact terrorists from the Ansar al-Shari'ah organization.

- They got into the embassy and killed a bunch of people, including the US ambassador.

- The Egyptian embassy, also facing protests and not wanting to be murdered, denounced the hatred that was directed at Islam, obviously an attempt to defuse the situation there. "The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims - as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions," the embassy said in a statement published online.

- Mitt Romney, who knows nothing about international politics but is running for President and sees this as a chance to attack the president on foreign policy, said "I'm outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi," and went on to say, "It's disgraceful that the Obama administrati ...


Damn if his is accurate, thats farked up.

This timeline should be on the frontpage of the NYT.
 
2012-09-12 11:14:10 AM  

Paul Baumer: Dalrint: Putting aside the bullshiat politics for a second...isn't attacking and killing an ambassador an act of war?

It would be if a government did it - it's not really clear who was responsible yet, I think.


Whether it is deliberate or not defines whether its an act of war or not.

Again, an Act of War is simply a descriptor meaning "this kind of thing happens in a war/when you declare a war, giving you a justification for retaliation"

It does NOT mean you are automatically at war with the perpetrator.

This is why non-state actors complicate things.

Once more to the breakfast analogy:
A pancake is always a pancake. But when you are eating a pancake you are not always eating breakfast.
 
2012-09-12 11:15:04 AM  
Subby's definition of "craven:"

The White House

Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
September 12, 2012
Statement by the President on the Attack in Benghazi

I strongly condemn the outrageous attack on our diplomatic facility in Benghazi, which took the lives of four Americans, including Ambassador Chris Stevens. Right now, the American people have the families of those we lost in our thoughts and prayers. They exemplified America's commitment to freedom, justice, and partnership with nations and people around the globe, and stand in stark contrast to those who callously took their lives.

I have directed my Administration to provide all necessary resources to support the security of our personnel in Libya, and to increase security at our diplomatic posts around the globe. While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants.

On a personal note, Chris was a courageous and exemplary representative of the United States. Throughout the Libyan revolution, he selflessly served our country and the Libyan people at our mission in Benghazi. As Ambassador in Tripoli, he has supported Libya's transition to democracy. His legacy will endure wherever human beings reach for liberty and justice. I am profoundly grateful for his service to my Administration, and deeply saddened by this loss.

The brave Americans we lost represent the extraordinary service and sacrifices that our civilians make every day around the globe. As we stand united with their families, let us now redouble our own efforts to carry their work forward.


Guess nothing short of a mass bombing raid on Benghazi will satisfy the stupid.
 
2012-09-12 11:15:47 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: Guess we should do what Reagan did in 1982 - cut and run.


In these cases, I would. Close down the embassies and evacuate all staff. Stop giving the governments money.
 
2012-09-12 11:17:21 AM  

Fart_Machine: Can we prove this is the case here?


img259.imageshack.us
 
2012-09-12 11:17:58 AM  

Headso: Wicked Chinchilla: Act of War is simply a justification for war. It does not mean war is automatically declared.

A pancake is a pancake, it does not mean you are eating breakfast at the time.

war is something governments wage if it's just random people doing something it is just vandalism and assault and murder


War:

1) a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2.) a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3.) a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4.) active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5.) aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.

Killing people could be assault or vandalism. They killed an Ambassador and Embassy personel. That confers it greater meaning.
 
2012-09-12 11:18:16 AM  

rufus-t-firefly: Gulper Eel: hammettman: And said events may have occured after said deadline.

The NY Daily News and the NY Post got it up just fine.

But the WSJ didn't. They got a small piece in the sidebar about the violence before the "big news," but that's it.

The NYT and WSJ both have national distribution. Their deadlines are probably different.

Maybe you should ask Rupert Murdoch.


I have a feeling his outrage over the WSJ isn't gonna happen.
 
2012-09-12 11:18:17 AM  
Dear People Younger Than 25,

A "newspaper" is a relic of the old world that is printed and then becomes unchangeable. It's sort of like a blog, only with yesterday's news, and more papery.
 
2012-09-12 11:19:51 AM  

Gulper Eel: Somacandra: In the heat of rapidly changing cultural conditions

Rapidly changing? Looks like their culture's still stuck somewhere around 800 AD.


I have to say that I am just thrilled, that fat f*ck Gulper Eel, located safely behind his freedom laptop is able to sternly, (but fairly) judge people who were just trying to save their lives 3,000 miles away.
 
2012-09-12 11:20:00 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Aar1012: quatchi: I just heard Obama's address on the 4 deaths.

Very presidential.

I believe I heard a journalist shout, after the speech, 'Was this an act of war?"

Against who? Do they even have a government right now?


According to Google - A provisional one.

/And, no, I don't believe that this should lead to war
 
2012-09-12 11:21:37 AM  
It would appear that the GOP leadership didn't have quite the same pussified ITG outrage at the President the campaign did - Link
 
2012-09-12 11:22:00 AM  
"Craven diplomatic response"? So, subby means that a person got scared when there's a raving mob trying to break in? Subby thinks he wouldn't have crapped his own shorts? Way to support our people overseas.

If subby is talking about the State Department Response, Hillary Clinton clarified what our response really is. That response was published three minutes before Mitt & Co. decided to exploit the blood of Americans for political gain. It was all of 21 minutes after Clinton's published response that the Romeny campaign told the press to go ahead and print their lies and show they revel in the death of Americans.
 
2012-09-12 11:22:36 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Headso: Wicked Chinchilla: Act of War is simply a justification for war. It does not mean war is automatically declared.

A pancake is a pancake, it does not mean you are eating breakfast at the time.

war is something governments wage if it's just random people doing something it is just vandalism and assault and murder

War:

1) a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2.) a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3.) a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4.) active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5.) aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.

Killing people could be assault or vandalism. They killed an Ambassador and Embassy personel. That confers it greater meaning.


Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

Although for any rational person waging war against an entire nation based on the actions of a few hooligans isn't a very good justification.
 
2012-09-12 11:25:32 AM  

quatchi: Any chance this latest action will make RW retards rethink their clever plan of trolling the Islamic world on a regular basis?


I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they wanted. Terry Jones has probably jizzed all over his mutton chops several times by now.
 
2012-09-12 11:26:47 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Killing people could be assault or vandalism. They killed an Ambassador and Embassy personel. That confers it greater meaning.


Some random person kills an ambassador doesn't mean they have the authority to speak for the nation but those Libyans that do have that authority have condemned the killing. Libya's Prime Minister Abdurrahim el-Keib apologized "to the American people and the government, and also to the rest of the world" for the "cowardly criminal act."... Seems like an irresponsible statement and fear mongering to call this an act of war.
 
2012-09-12 11:26:53 AM  
Hey, I got a chance to see that video. Are we SURE these riots are about Islam and not just about what a truly crappy little high school production that video was? I know I felt a little more violent after having to sit through those "actors'" performance.
 
2012-09-12 11:28:22 AM  
I just made this thread much shorter, and I recommend you all do the same.
 
2012-09-12 11:28:58 AM  
 
2012-09-12 11:30:42 AM  

LockeOak: I just made this thread much shorter, and I recommend you all do the same.


Pagination is for the weak.

Wait, what?
 
2012-09-12 11:32:24 AM  

NateGrey: Republicans and Al Qaeda are cheering American deaths.


To: SE Mom
One man in the USA is sleeping well tonight, Ex-President Jimmy Carter!
He is no longer the dumbest SOB President we ever had.
The Communistic Muslim loving Bastard that has slithered into our White House has now surpassed even his own expectations to place us in the most dire position, to become a true Third World Country!
God Bless this country and deliver us from this evil!

63 posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 11:50:59 PM by GOYAKLA (Recall/ Impeachment Day, November 6, 2012. FUBO, same for RINOs)
 
2012-09-12 11:32:44 AM  
Gonna have to make visiting the pyramids 50 of 50 on the bucket list, just in case.
 
2012-09-12 11:33:19 AM  

vernonFL: Tehran 1979, Beirut 1982

Cairo and Benghazi 2012.


hike?
 
2012-09-12 11:33:50 AM  

Buffalo77: FlashHarry


i love how the romneybots have already come out and said that obama's response is "craven" when in fact he condemned it harshly. way to turn the death of an american patriot into a political point, you scumbags.


Don't be an idiot, this is a political situation and it should be pointed out how weak the Administration's response has been. Thanks for promoting the Arab Spring, Thanks alot PBO.


Difficulty, you have absolutely no reason to believe these attack would not have occurred if Qaddaffi was still in charge. Zero. Zip. Nada.

As for Obama, right this minute, the Libyan government is so afraid of Obama's pimp hand that they are cowering and agreeing to do whatever we ask to hunt down and get the people involved, fellow Muslims, in their country. They are pissing themselves worrying that Obama will not only send the SEALs to get the rioters involved, which he most likely will do given he does not give a fark about Libyan Juris-my-dick-tion, but that they will wake up with a laser dot on their heads from the barrel of a MP-5. They are so terrified of Obama that they sent their military to protect OUR embassy from THEIR citizens.

That is why Obama is to be feared and respected above all others, especially that magic-underwear wearing Mormon moron, Romney.
 
2012-09-12 11:35:42 AM  

NateGrey: Republicans and Al Qaeda are cheering American deaths.


AHH I just clicked a Freeper link!

My computer must be cleansed!

/Stupid Safari not telling me what the link is
 
2012-09-12 11:36:27 AM  

Headso: Wicked Chinchilla: Killing people could be assault or vandalism. They killed an Ambassador and Embassy personel. That confers it greater meaning.

Some random person kills an ambassador doesn't mean they have the authority to speak for the nation but those Libyans that do have that authority have condemned the killing. Libya's Prime Minister Abdurrahim el-Keib apologized "to the American people and the government, and also to the rest of the world" for the "cowardly criminal act."... Seems like an irresponsible statement and fear mongering to call this an act of war.


Oh man.

I am not blaming it on the Libyan Government.

Read what I am writing.

It being an Act of War, and how we respond to said act of war are two entirely different pieces in the puzzle that is the incident as a whole.

Regardless of who was responsible, a US consulate was deliberately attacked resulting in the deaths of the Ambassador and 3 staffers. Thats all of the relevant information necessary to give it the nebulous term "Act of War." No matter what, those facts are inviolate and will NOT change.

Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.

Thats it.
 
2012-09-12 11:38:42 AM  

Aar1012: NateGrey: Republicans and Al Qaeda are cheering American deaths.

AHH I just clicked a Freeper link!

My computer must be cleansed!

/Stupid Safari not telling me what the link is


Dude, I warned you. I posted one of the more "enlightened" posts from some Freeptard.
 
2012-09-12 11:40:13 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.


Obama will do what Obama always does: he will bring the evil-doers to justice. With or without the help of the Libyan government, certain people in Libya are going to be woken up in the dead of night by big, scary men, with big, scary guns, have a black bag placed over their heads, and they will...disappear. Count on it.
 
2012-09-12 11:41:04 AM  

coeyagi: Kazan: fark you farking muslim extremists, and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Muhammad.

This could be Mad Fark Libs.

fark you farking Mormon extremists and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Joseph Smith.


snap
 
2012-09-12 11:41:20 AM  
The Libyans should pull a Grand Fenwick and immediately surrender to us and let us rebuild their country for them.
 
2012-09-12 11:41:39 AM  
A team of quiet, well-trained individuals with sharp knives and malicious intent should be turned loose within Libya to ensure matters are taken care of. Basically, we need about 50 Liam Neesons, except with real-world experience in making people disappear.
 
2012-09-12 11:41:51 AM  
This is all because of Obama's failure to lead.

And I'm completely read to believe this, if you can tell me what it even means.
 
2012-09-12 11:42:03 AM  
in the slate article
"It's a simple story, but it's got enough moving parts to be worth retelling in brief. So:

- A group of Coptic Christians, now understandably in hiding, released a baffling satirical video that mocked Muhummad. (You can see the video here.)


- Over several days, the video plays about as well as the 2006 "Danish cartoons" did. Early on Tuesday, the U.S. embassy in Egypt (home to many Coptics) releases a statement that "condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims." (The embassy itself, as CNBC reports, had been partially emptied before the statement was made.) The statement is tweeted at 6:11 a.m. Eastern time."

so are these additional players
or is the story changing already

earlier posting
bdub77: So let's see if we can sort the timeline out as close as possible:

- A Jewish director, Sam Bacile (More like Im Becile), a California real estate developer who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, wrote and directed a movie that depicts Muhammad as a pedo/womanizer/fraud. Which is probably true but let's be honest, an asshole thing to do.

- This movie was bankrolled by over 100 jewish donors and was promoted by Terry Jones, who if anyone has not heard the name before is a 'Christian' asshole who has incited international violence in the past and was on the Secret Service watch list.

 
2012-09-12 11:42:11 AM  
Rmoney done blew another lay up.
 
2012-09-12 11:43:02 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Headso: Wicked Chinchilla: Killing people could be assault or vandalism. They killed an Ambassador and Embassy personel. That confers it greater meaning.

Some random person kills an ambassador doesn't mean they have the authority to speak for the nation but those Libyans that do have that authority have condemned the killing. Libya's Prime Minister Abdurrahim el-Keib apologized "to the American people and the government, and also to the rest of the world" for the "cowardly criminal act."... Seems like an irresponsible statement and fear mongering to call this an act of war.

Oh man.

I am not blaming it on the Libyan Government.

Read what I am writing.

It being an Act of War, and how we respond to said act of war are two entirely different pieces in the puzzle that is the incident as a whole.

Regardless of who was responsible, a US consulate was deliberately attacked resulting in the deaths of the Ambassador and 3 staffers. Thats all of the relevant information necessary to give it the nebulous term "Act of War." No matter what, those facts are inviolate and will NOT change.

Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.

Thats it.


If it wasn't order by a nation or somebody acting on behalf of a nation, it's a criminal act, not an act of war.
 
2012-09-12 11:43:33 AM  

coeyagi: Kazan: fark you farking muslim extremists, and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Muhammad.

This could be Mad Fark Libs.

fark you farking Mormon extremists and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Joseph Smith.


fark you farking Nittany Lion extremists and fark your pedophile raider 'prophet' Jerry Sandusky.
 
2012-09-12 11:44:15 AM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Now we get to the complicated part. Because it is exceedingly unlikely the attack was a result of any government our response cannot and will not be simple. We can't diplomatically scold anyone, surgically strike infrastructure, formally protest to the UN. We have very, very few options for a response.


This is why terrorism must be addressed as a matter of law enforcement not one of military (war) response. The difference may seem subtle but it makes all the difference in the world.

Until the heads in this nation wrap themselves around that fact we will chase our tails pausing only the times we get lucky and chomp down biting ourselves.

And the same goes for any "war on (insert abstract idea here)". It's both incorrect and counterproductive.
 
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