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(Hot Air)   Paul Ryan: We stand with Mayor Rahm Emanuel against the Chicago teachers' union. Wait. Ryan and Rahm on the same side....my god 2012 is the end of the world   (hotair.com) divider line 179
    More: Interesting, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, Paul Ryan, Chicago, big labor, Chicago teachers  
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632 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Sep 2012 at 10:07 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



179 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-09-11 10:08:17 AM  
paul ryan's hatred of the working class outweighs his hatred of democrats.
 
2012-09-11 10:10:20 AM  
You can pretty much guarantee that on all major issues of labor and management, Dems and GOP will side with management.
 
2012-09-11 10:10:59 AM  
We'll see how the Chicago thing works out. I can't decide if Rahm is ensuring himself lifelong incumbency or guaranteed defeat in the next election. It's not going to help him to be linked, however parenthetically, to the whole Wisconsins "let's just declare unions null and void" thing. That won't play well in Chicago.
 
2012-09-11 10:12:34 AM  
but Ryan knows a political opportunity when he sees one.

This sums up the man completely. He is an opportunist, always has been. This is why he can't talk about his voting record, because in reality he is far from the beacon of fiscal conservatism that he pretends to be. Just another run of the mill empty suit with a fake smile and Midwestern accent.
 
2012-09-11 10:13:36 AM  

Great_Milenko: paul ryan's hatred of the working class outweighs his hatred of democrats.

 

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-09-11 10:13:54 AM  
Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.
 
2012-09-11 10:14:47 AM  
Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.
 
2012-09-11 10:15:37 AM  

whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.


If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.
 
2012-09-11 10:16:25 AM  
Wait. Ryan and Rahm on the same side

No surprise, really. They both have dictatorial aspirations.
 
2012-09-11 10:17:41 AM  
Before I declare my support I need to know what side is Chief Keef on. I do not want to be opposite him.
 
2012-09-11 10:17:46 AM  
We don't need no education?
 
2012-09-11 10:18:03 AM  
Ryan stands against people who work for a living? Somehow I do not find this shocking.
 
2012-09-11 10:19:26 AM  
I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed. Their contract wasn't being honored, and the offer of a replacement was a piece of shiat. So they negotiated. It didn't work. This is their new message.

Paul Ryan has balls calling out anyone in the public sector considering how comfortably he's lived off of Social Security, then forgets to mention it when he talks about his bootstrappiness.
 
2012-09-11 10:20:01 AM  
Politicians are not the working class, they will always side with management.
 
2012-09-11 10:20:27 AM  
Not really so surprising if you've been paying attention for the past thirty years or so.

4.bp.blogspot.com

/Hot.
 
2012-09-11 10:21:16 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.
 
2012-09-11 10:21:56 AM  
End of the world?

"Politics makes strange bedfellows."

This quote has been around since 1870.
 
2012-09-11 10:23:16 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


Why don't you actually read what the strike is about rather than making stuff up? It'd be useful.

Link
 
2012-09-11 10:23:51 AM  
Because we can't have educational standards, can we?

Here are the facts (outside of the pay raise crap) "Eager to improve Chicago's schools, Mr. Emanuel has taken several steps - among them pressing the school board to rescind a promised 4 percent raise - and made numerous demands that have infuriated the Chicago Teachers Union. He wants student test performance to count heavily in evaluating teachers for tenure, even though the union insists that is a highly unreliable way to assess teachers. And with Mr. Emanuel intent on shuttering dozens of poorly performing schools, the union is pressing him to agree to strong provisions to reinstate teachers in other schools when theirs are closed."

Also:

This year Chicago Public Schools began rolling out a new system in which student test scores would count for 25% of a teacher's performance rating. It would increase to 30% in two years. The union believes the system is too heavily weighted toward test scores and could put thousands of teachers out of work.

Standardized tests are what is wrong with America. It would be nice if administrators had options to get rid of underperforming teachers regardless of test scores. I'm OK with having 25% be test scores, but teaching is an art, not a science. The minute you make teachers teach the tests and not the subject matter or the critical thinking skills, you are no longer teaching. This has happened in a lot of schools.

Getting rid of underperforming teachers should be the job at the administrative level, and decisions should be both quantitative and qualitative. If you find the teacher's students are acing their tests but have zero ability at the next grade to learn, then maybe you're doing it wrong.

And when do you start holding parents and students accountable? Some teachers inherit the failures of their students to learn, and have even less luck dealing w/parents who have no time for their children other than to biatch at the teacher.
 
2012-09-11 10:24:41 AM  

theteacher: I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?


This teacher was penalized for coming at work...

www.debralafave.com
 
2012-09-11 10:25:42 AM  

TimonC346: I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed. Their contract wasn't being honored, and the offer of a replacement was a piece of shiat. So they negotiated. It didn't work. This is their new message.

Paul Ryan has balls calling out anyone in the public sector considering how comfortably he's lived off of Social Security, then forgets to mention it when he talks about his bootstrappiness.


That's the thing, people are gut deciding based on partisanship vs. actually looking at the details and then making a decision. The evil Dems. vs. evil Teachers vs. The Unions. Quite the dilemma for a Republican forced to take sides. Most did poorly in school so they might want to side with the evil Dems here. In Ryans case, he would support whatever scored the most political points, I doubt that he actually read up on the issues. Yeah, Ryan is a lifer at the public teat, just like Scott Walker. Ryan even used SS benefits to put himself though school, so bootstrappy!
 
2012-09-11 10:25:47 AM  
These teachers striking now = bad timing for democrats
 
2012-09-11 10:26:15 AM  
The workers must obey!

--The Ballerina
 
2012-09-11 10:26:22 AM  

theteacher: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.


Fark off, real world. I'm comfortable in my little bunker here.
 
2012-09-11 10:26:53 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


It would be preferable for those teachers to use all that time off and be out of the classroom more often? The district I teach in has been reducing the amount you get for unused sick leave over the last couple decades. Now it's about 20%. By the time I'd be eligible for retirement in 20+ years I'm not counting on having the option available. I know teachers who call out much more time off than I do to make up for that now and knew of a teacher when I was in school in a district that didn't offer this who simply came in once a week to show a video and had a substitute in every other day. Quality education right there.
That said the teachers in Chicago have it a good deal better than most others nationwide, I consider it unfortunate that this is going to paint us all as greedy in the media, but am also glad that there is some action being taken to draw attention to the underfunding of education in America today.
 
2012-09-11 10:27:40 AM  

indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.


Well to be fair I do believe that Chicago teachers are required to live within the city limits and Chicago is an expensive city to live in. Also they have to pay more into their health care and pensions than teachers in other cities have to. And another thing, every teacher isn't making that much. The ones that are making that much have had 20+ years in. I know that they are having a problem keeping younger teachers because the pay for them is lower than what they can get elsewhere.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-11 10:28:00 AM  

indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.


Yeah, like they actually make anywhere near that.

It's still funny how we are supposed to hate teachers who actually do something productive for making
 
2012-09-11 10:28:03 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


Also:

How about getting instruction materials on the day of classes, not days or weeks later? Yes, this actually had to be negotiated because it's a problem for teachers in the CPS. That's bullshiat and the teachers are right to include that in the demands.

How about demanding a reasonable timetable for when classes are going to be climate-controlled? With longer school years, teachers find themselves trying to do their jobs in 90+ degree closed, stuffy classrooms (no window opening for noise and security reasons).

How about not having their health care costs triple?

How about not having their 2007 contract basically ripped up by the city?

We could go on.
 
2012-09-11 10:28:54 AM  

indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.


Apparently pay isn't what they are arguing over.
http://www.ctunet.com/blog/cps-fails-to-negotiate-fair-contract-to-pr e vent-first-labor-strike-in-25-years

That said, I still find the whole thing rather silly. The point about Air-Conditioning though, I agree, its getting hotter, these northern schools are starting to need AC.
 
2012-09-11 10:29:14 AM  
I saw this little detail on a CNN article yesterday. I can't find that one, but here's a cite from yahoo.finance.

Lewis acknowledges that some progress has been made in the negotiations, including putting more than 500 teachers back to work, restoring some liberal arts classes to the curriculum and guaranteeing new textbooks on the first day of school versus having to wait six weeks for instructional materials.

What difference does it make if the teachers are on strike for a few days? The kids still got more than five weeks before they'll even get their textbooks.
Just saying, if a school district can fark up something as simple as putting books in front of students then I find it easy to believe that that the source of the problems might not be the teachers themselves.
 
2012-09-11 10:29:37 AM  
Despite agreeing with the teachers this is a really crappy year to strike.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-11 10:29:53 AM  

More_Like_A_Stain: theteacher: I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

This teacher was penalized for coming at work...

[www.debralafave.com image 285x415]


She should have gotten a bonus.
 
2012-09-11 10:29:54 AM  
www.theblaze.com

If there's one thing I hate worse than Obama's ultraliberal, Chicago-style political attack dog, it's teachers.

Sweet Jebus, I hates me some teachers.
 
2012-09-11 10:29:57 AM  
The entirety of the teachers union decided that at the most sensitive point in the election cycle that they would hold the city hostage for a very small financial gain. fark Them. Destroy them. I am a registered Democrat, fire them all. Lay off the entirety of the Teachers Union, hire scabs, move on. There is no farking excuse for this other than to hold a city hostage for a very small gain.

Run them out of town, and their families. Salt their farms. Thanks a lot you useless farks you just set unions back 50 years.

/when the fark did the unions start getting run by Karl Rove?
 
2012-09-11 10:30:29 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


The magic internet box in front of you makes it possible to know these things.

Some of the issues include class size, availability of air conditioning, reference books, resources in general.
 
2012-09-11 10:33:43 AM  

whatsupchuck: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

The magic internet box in front of you makes it possible to know these things.

Some of the issues include class size, availability of air conditioning, reference books, resources in general.



The magic of the conditional means that if certain conditions do not exist, I do not agree. So fark off dude.
 
2012-09-11 10:34:28 AM  
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-11 10:34:29 AM  

vpb: indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.

Yeah, like they actually make anywhere near that.

It's still funny how we are supposed to hate teachers who actually do something productive for making


It's still funny how we are supposed to hate teachers who actually do something productive for making less than $100k but if you don't like corporate raiders who make tens of millions destroying companies then it's class warfare.
 
2012-09-11 10:34:43 AM  

DamnYankees: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Why don't you actually read what the strike is about rather than making stuff up? It'd be useful.

Link


I made nothing up, genius. I used the word "if".
 
2012-09-11 10:34:47 AM  
People treat their kids so oddly to me. If its any social issue:

img.neeerd.com

But if teachers ask for a cost of living adjustment:

i.minus.com 

So sure, implement a zero tolerance policy and expel kids who bring midol or a drawing of a gun to school, ignorance is *cheap*.
 
2012-09-11 10:36:34 AM  

coeyagi: DamnYankees: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Why don't you actually read what the strike is about rather than making stuff up? It'd be useful.

Link

I made nothing up, genius. I used the word "if".


Oh, ok then. Well, if you're mother had not slept with an Albanian goat 9 months prior to your birth, we wouldn't be having this argument.
 
2012-09-11 10:37:02 AM  
I could be wrong on this, but I thought that a big part of this was Rahm demanding that teachers teach an extra 90 minutes a day, while denying teachers a raise that was contractually due last year.

So yeah, I can see Ryan being for this..."Yay! Work more for less! Who cares what the contract said!"
 
2012-09-11 10:38:00 AM  
Only in this country can you have close to half the population believing a narrative that paints millionaires and billionaires as victims and teachers and public employees as the villains. If you believe this line of thinking, you're either retarded, an asshole, or both.
 
2012-09-11 10:38:03 AM  

orclover: The entirety of the teachers union decided that at the most sensitive point in the election cycle that they would hold the city hostage for a very small financial gain. fark Them. Destroy them. I am a registered Democrat, fire them all. Lay off the entirety of the Teachers Union, hire scabs, move on. There is no farking excuse for this other than to hold a city hostage for a very small gain.

Run them out of town, and their families. Salt their farms. Thanks a lot you useless farks you just set unions back 50 years.

/when the fark did the unions start getting run by Karl Rove?


Read about how it is NOT about pay. Rahman offered 16% raise. Farking 16%. And they are not stuck on that.
 
2012-09-11 10:38:23 AM  

theteacher: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.


You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,
 
2012-09-11 10:40:32 AM  
The optics of this strike are gruesome for Democrats: You've got the best paid teachers in the country, who already take home nearly $30,000 per year more on average than the average Chicago family, walking out on kids in Obama's own hometown even though a friendly Democratic face in Rahm Emanuel is on the other side of the table.

Oh look, another variation on the classic "Grrr! Look at those darn overpaid teachers" sound byte.

The One...

[nationalreviewpalincover]
 
2012-09-11 10:40:57 AM  

DamnYankees: coeyagi: DamnYankees: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Why don't you actually read what the strike is about rather than making stuff up? It'd be useful.

Link

I made nothing up, genius. I used the word "if".

Oh, ok then. Well, if you're mother had not slept with an Albanian goat 9 months prior to your birth, we wouldn't be having this argument.


See, that doesn't work either. Your conditional exists as such that one reality occurred (which it didn't) and we'd be having a different conversation if that reality didn't occur (which it didn't). My conditional is such that I was basically begging the question "was this in the package?" and if so, I would not be in favor of it.

All conditionals are not created equal.
 
2012-09-11 10:41:03 AM  
It's really sad that the rich have become victims and teachers are the greedy evil ones.
 
2012-09-11 10:41:13 AM  

bdub77: Because we can't have educational standards, can we?

Here are the facts (outside of the pay raise crap) "Eager to improve Chicago's schools, Mr. Emanuel has taken several steps - among them pressing the school board to rescind a promised 4 percent raise - and made numerous demands that have infuriated the Chicago Teachers Union. He wants student test performance to count heavily in evaluating teachers for tenure, even though the union insists that is a highly unreliable way to assess teachers. And with Mr. Emanuel intent on shuttering dozens of poorly performing schools, the union is pressing him to agree to strong provisions to reinstate teachers in other schools when theirs are closed."

Also:

This year Chicago Public Schools began rolling out a new system in which student test scores would count for 25% of a teacher's performance rating. It would increase to 30% in two years. The union believes the system is too heavily weighted toward test scores and could put thousands of teachers out of work.

Standardized tests are what is wrong with America. It would be nice if administrators had options to get rid of underperforming teachers regardless of test scores. I'm OK with having 25% be test scores, but teaching is an art, not a science. The minute you make teachers teach the tests and not the subject matter or the critical thinking skills, you are no longer teaching. This has happened in a lot of schools.

Getting rid of underperforming teachers should be the job at the administrative level, and decisions should be both quantitative and qualitative. If you find the teacher's students are acing their tests but have zero ability at the next grade to learn, then maybe you're doing it wrong.

And when do you start holding parents and students accountable? Some teachers inherit the failures of their students to learn, and have even less luck dealing w/parents who have no time for their children other than to biatch at the teacher.


It's always about the pay CRAP in some form. You seem to have left out this part:

The school district has offered a 16 percent raise over four years - double an 8 percent offer made earlier - as well as ''modified step increases'' that it says reward experience and provide ''better incentives for mid-career teachers'' to keep them from leaving. The district also wants to do away with the ability of teachers to bank sick days but is offering short-term disability, including paid maternity leave. With an average salary of $76,000, Chicago teachers are among the highest-paid in the nation, according to the National Council on Teacher Quality.

So, it appears the teachers are being offered 4 percent base salary increases. The sticking point comes with the second-tier of the teacher annual pay increases, step increases. Those are tied to years of service and seperate from the base increase.

Modifying the step increases is the sticking point there. Instead of getting them guaranteed the city wants to tie them to performance.

The banking of sick days is a gem. A product of the good ol' days. Most private employers and even government jobs don't allow this anymore. Paid maternity leave is pretty sweet, though.

The third tier of the three annual pay increases teachers can get, tied to continuing education, appears untouched. Online courses make this much easier and cheaper for teachers to grab this annual increase and that is hitting school districts' budgets hard.
 
2012-09-11 10:41:27 AM  

coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.


I know in other industries your un-used sick days turn into basically a small bonus (not equivalent to an entire day of pay, but still), you're not allowed to actually turn them into vacation days because that'd disrupt the work schedule severely.

So depending on the implementation, some form of cash-out is not an unreasonable request. Employer-provided health care of some magnitude is fairly industry-standard as well.

Basically this doesn't strike me as a conflict where either side is being off-the-wall unreasonable in their demands, the city's insistence on economic efficiency is a real and meaningful concern and if the union is asking for too much it's a question of magnitude rather than some sort of truly outlandish demands. I can see having an opinion here but I can't see really vilifying one side or the other. Which seems to be the general attitude of the people actually involved, to be fair: Rahm isn't bad-mouthing the teachers and the protesters appear to be cracking jokes about his musical tastes rather than comparing him to hitler or something.

Basically I'd expect this conflict to eventually end amiably and make Ryan look like an idiot. Again.
 
2012-09-11 10:41:37 AM  

madgonad: You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,


haha I love this. "I don't got mine, so fark YOU NEITHER CAN YOU"
 
2012-09-11 10:42:33 AM  

orclover: The entirety of the teachers union decided that at the most sensitive point in the election cycle that they would hold the city hostage for a very small financial gain. fark Them. Destroy them. I am a registered Democrat, fire them all. Lay off the entirety of the Teachers Union, hire scabs, move on. There is no farking excuse for this other than to hold a city hostage for a very small gain.


No, they decided to strike at the beginning of the school year. Striking a month ago wouldn't have meant a whole hell of a lot.

And hiring scabs? Please, districts have enough trouble hiring teachers when they get paid union rates. You think you can fill a whole school with teachers being paid minimum wage? You'd get better educational value just sitting the kids in front of the History Channel and having them watch repeats of the ancient aliens guy.
 
2012-09-11 10:42:47 AM  

madgonad: theteacher: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.

You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,



But if I call out sick, my work will sit at my desk and wait for me till tomorrow. If a teacher calls out sick, someone has to come in and try and fill in. That's a major pain in the ass I'm sure. So extra incentives to not use sick days sounds like a good idea.
 
2012-09-11 10:43:37 AM  
May 2011: Teachers in the area earn an average salary of $56,720. Link
 
2012-09-11 10:44:30 AM  

Publikwerks: madgonad: theteacher: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.

You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,


But if I call out sick, my work will sit at my desk and wait for me till tomorrow. If a teacher calls out sick, someone has to come in and try and fill in. That's a major pain in the ass I'm sure. So extra incentives to not use sick days sounds like a good idea.


And going back to what I said earlier, I never said I was against it. I just think 300+ days is a little extreme. But again, it's all academic, as others have stated (since they bothered to read and I didn't), this is not being discussed.
 
2012-09-11 10:45:53 AM  
And that's how you know you're wrong Rahm. If Paul Ryan stands with you, you know you've farked up.
 
2012-09-11 10:46:21 AM  

coeyagi: DamnYankees: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Why don't you actually read what the strike is about rather than making stuff up? It'd be useful.

Link

I made nothing up, genius. I used the word "if".


If you want to go around blowing goats that's your business, but when you start posting on Fark you have to expect some blowback.
 
2012-09-11 10:47:15 AM  

theteacher: orclover: The entirety of the teachers union decided that at the most sensitive point in the election cycle that they would hold the city hostage for a very small financial gain. fark Them. Destroy them. I am a registered Democrat, fire them all. Lay off the entirety of the Teachers Union, hire scabs, move on. There is no farking excuse for this other than to hold a city hostage for a very small gain.

Run them out of town, and their families. Salt their farms. Thanks a lot you useless farks you just set unions back 50 years.

/when the fark did the unions start getting run by Karl Rove?

Read about how it is NOT about pay. Rahman offered 16% raise. Farking 16%. And they are not stuck on that.


HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is? They are demanding that farking much. Normal workers dont get anything near what teachers already get. Its already a cushy farking job compared to what most Americans get. Now they want a raise as large as what a small percentage of people get if they recieve a huge PROMOTION, not raise, a farking promotion?

fark THEM, fark YOU for saying they can have whatever they want. These "teachers" need to be made an example of. They need to wheel in scott farking walker and have him eat their asses and then ship his ass back home. The teachers unions just told the kids in that city to go fark themselves because they want more money while wearing a "vote Romney" badge. To say otherwise is simple trolling.

Burn them, burn them all. Ship teachers in from Mexico to run the schools starting tomorrow. Its a win win all around.
 
2012-09-11 10:48:28 AM  

orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?


Over 4 years. Not massive.
 
2012-09-11 10:50:29 AM  

madgonad: theteacher: coeyagi: whatsupchuck: Clearly then, a reasonable person would side with the teachers.

If it's for 5% increased pay, yes. If it's for benefits that would allow them to cash out 300+ days at the end of their career or have to pay little to nothing for healthcare, no.

Would you rather teachers call out sick 300+ days over the course of 20 years?

Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?

Fark off.

You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,


Accumulating sick days reduce health care costs. It is proven that people would rather bank their sick days than call in sick. If you don't let people bank their days, somehow they manage to use them all up, huh. That;s why employers generally like them, it saves up front. However, if the employer does not manage some of the saved money to pay for the sick day pay at the end, then there is trouble. Who's fault is that? It is like keeping people's money for a pension fund, raiding that pension fund and then not having the pension fund to support the pension at the end even though it was promised and the pension fees collected. Employers that use sick day banking to save money or collect pension fees then don't provide at the end are scum. They see it as short term cost savings without making provision to pay out at the end.

If I were the teachers I'd not have that demand in there. Who cares if it costs the school district more then, they aren't showing good faith that they will be there at the end to pay out for all those days you saved them money.
 
2012-09-11 10:50:32 AM  

DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.


Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.
 
2012-09-11 10:50:48 AM  
Before anyone goes and feels sorry for the Chicago teachers, note that they're the highest paid teachers in the nation, before benefits and pension. And they want cost of living raises...which would already be ridiculous for the very fact that they are so overcompensated as it is...in an economy where damn near no one is getting such raises. So, the already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation want raises from a taxpayer base made up of people who can't get raises of their own to pay the additional taxes to fund the raise for the-already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation.

I am liberal. I know unions are necessary and are in every way a product of capitalism.

But f*ck the Chicago teacher's union in this case. This is not the time, morons.
 
2012-09-11 10:51:46 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.

Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.


No, it's still a raise. Inflation is under 4%. It's just not a huge raise.
 
2012-09-11 10:51:52 AM  
When faced with a striking teachers union, do you?

A: Negotiate.
B: Outlaw teachers' ability to strike.
 
2012-09-11 10:52:12 AM  

orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is? They are demanding that farking much. Normal workers dont get anything near what teachers already get.


It is 16% over four years. So basically 4% a year. Are you telling me that other workers don't get a 3-4% pay raise a year? Please stop with your lies and all of this teachers are paid so much crap.
 
2012-09-11 10:52:24 AM  

DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.


In this economic climate? That's farking massive.
 
2012-09-11 10:52:48 AM  

madgonad: You do understand that the vast vast majority of Americans don't get sick days that accumulate (and then get paid out at retirement and included in average salary calculations for a pension). So stop your biatching. You already get 2 months off every summer. Once you finish your Masters you can spend summer doing whatever you want,


Teachers on average work 53hr work weeks assuming 2 months off they work 2332 hrs a year
A person working a 40hr work week and taking 2 weeks off does 2000hrs


Most teachers are required to take refresher courses in their subject area so assuming 5 week, 3 times a week class 20~30 hours (including studying time) additionally a year

Also we as a society need to stop placing the whole onus for raising our children on teachers. Blaming teachers for poor student performance is like blaming the guy who did your oil change for a factory defect. Parents, environment, resources, etc... all play a huge role. But hey, looking at those issues and admitting our society is broken is tough, so lets blame the closet easy to hit lighting rod! I mean everyone remembers having at least one bad teacher so lets just amplify that!
 
2012-09-11 10:52:58 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.


No, it's not. It's actually right on track with GDP growth.
 
2012-09-11 10:53:06 AM  

coeyagi: The magic of the conditional means that if certain conditions do not exist, I do not agree. So fark off dude.


And in your ignorance you think I should care what you think? Fark yourself.
 
2012-09-11 10:53:42 AM  
 
2012-09-11 10:54:47 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Before anyone goes and feels sorry for the Chicago teachers, note that they're the highest paid teachers in the nation, before benefits and pension. And they want cost of living raises...which would already be ridiculous for the very fact that they are so overcompensated as it is...in an economy where damn near no one is getting such raises. So, the already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation want raises from a taxpayer base made up of people who can't get raises of their own to pay the additional taxes to fund the raise for the-already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation.

I am liberal. I know unions are necessary and are in every way a product of capitalism.

But f*ck the Chicago teacher's union in this case. This is not the time, morons.


Yes, let's all race to the bottom together.
 
2012-09-11 10:55:16 AM  

ongbok: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is? They are demanding that farking much. Normal workers dont get anything near what teachers already get.

It is 16% over four years. So basically 4% a year. Are you telling me that other workers don't get a 3-4% pay raise a year? Please stop with your lies and all of this teachers are paid so much crap.


I'm telling you that. Many, many workers have had their salaries frozen for several years.
 
2012-09-11 10:55:22 AM  

TimonC346: I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed.


Nothing against this situation in Chicago but here's what I have experienced. I used to say to my ex-wife (a PS teacher) you get two raises a year because you go up a pay grade (years experience) and the pay grades themselves all get a cost of allowance increase. She disagreed with me entirely. It's hard for lay people who work more than 182 days a year, and who have to use their days off or lose them, to relate to that kind of attitude.

My background: My grandmother taught a one room schoolhouse in PA, I have the handbook sill. My mother was an elementary school teacher in Prospect Park NJ. And my wife was an elementary school teacher in Paterson NJ. I know teachers.
 
2012-09-11 10:56:09 AM  

DamnYankees: Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.

Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.

No, it's still a raise. Inflation is under 4%. It's just not a huge raise.


A 3.8% raise every year will result in a 16% raise over 4 years. Inflation generally hovers around 3-4%, but can be higher or lower. It's actually tough to say if it's a raise or not, because we don't know what inflation will be, but it is pretty darn close to an inflation adjusted salary.
 
2012-09-11 10:56:19 AM  

lilbjorn: Wait. Ryan and Rahm on the same side

No surprise, really. They both have dictatorial aspirations.


Rahm's practically a Republican anyway.
 
2012-09-11 10:56:49 AM  

Rich Cream: My grandmother taught a one room schoolhouse in PA, I have the handbook sill.

Yes, there IS a section on Grammar.
 
2012-09-11 10:57:34 AM  
My guess is that Paul Ryan has absolutely no clue about is actually happening with the teachers union negotiations, he just wants to inject his own anti union sentiments into the matter. I bet if you asked him what the negotiations were specifically about he would have no clue at all, other than the pay raise stuff.
 
2012-09-11 10:57:59 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Before anyone goes and feels sorry for the Chicago teachers, note that they're the highest paid teachers in the nation, before benefits and pension. And they want cost of living raises...which would already be ridiculous for the very fact that they are so overcompensated as it is...in an economy where damn near no one is getting such raises. So, the already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation want raises from a taxpayer base made up of people who can't get raises of their own to pay the additional taxes to fund the raise for the-already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation.

I am liberal. I know unions are necessary and are in every way a product of capitalism.

But f*ck the Chicago teacher's union in this case. This is not the time, morons.


They want a 4% raise. Is that too much? That is about what other workers at non sweat shops get every year. And for another thing, the cost of living is higher in Chicago than it is in most places so that also drives their salary and they have to live in the city limits and are unable to live in some of the cheaper surrounding suburbs.
 
2012-09-11 10:58:35 AM  

ongbok: indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.

Well to be fair I do believe that Chicago teachers are required to live within the city limits and Chicago is an expensive city to live in.


I lived in Chicago comfortably on $42K annually for quite some time, with crappier benefits. It's not NYC or anything.

Also they have to pay more into their health care and pensions than teachers in other cities have to. And another thing, every teacher isn't making that much. The ones that are making that much have had 20+ years in. I know that they are having a problem keeping younger teachers because the pay for them is lower than what they can get elsewhere.

Well, perhaps they should eliminate, or at least erode, seniority-based increases, and pay new teachers more. Balance the scales a little...same amount of money in the system, but a more level playing field. But, oh, they don't want to do that, either.
 
2012-09-11 10:59:00 AM  

Cletus C.: I'm telling you that. Many, many workers have had their salaries frozen for several years.


And this has to do with the teachers...how?
 
2012-09-11 10:59:10 AM  

ongbok: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Before anyone goes and feels sorry for the Chicago teachers, note that they're the highest paid teachers in the nation, before benefits and pension. And they want cost of living raises...which would already be ridiculous for the very fact that they are so overcompensated as it is...in an economy where damn near no one is getting such raises. So, the already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation want raises from a taxpayer base made up of people who can't get raises of their own to pay the additional taxes to fund the raise for the-already-highest-paid-teachers-in-the-nation.

I am liberal. I know unions are necessary and are in every way a product of capitalism.

But f*ck the Chicago teacher's union in this case. This is not the time, morons.

They want a 4% raise. Is that too much? That is about what other workers at non sweat shops get every year. And for another thing, the cost of living is higher in Chicago than it is in most places so that also drives their salary and they have to live in the city limits and are unable to live in some of the cheaper surrounding suburbs.


Let's not forget that the cost of living in Chicago probably rises faster than inflation, especially things like rent or the housing market.
 
2012-09-11 11:00:25 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.

Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.


You are absolutely on crack. Normal people do not get cost of living increases in pay, ever. Its a rare farking thing to have that good of a job. These workers are already dining on steak and caviar. They are now holding a city and a political campaign hostage for a better champagne selection. The democrats will gain more by making an example out of them than they will for giving in to the demands of self centered shiatbags trying to destroy the futures of children. The best answer is to purge them from the state. But they wont, the democrats will give in before their polls start wavering because they are weak. And then the republicans will beat them to death with it till election day.

This union, this chicago union is gods own gift to the GoP.
 
2012-09-11 11:01:21 AM  

ongbok: They want a 4% raise. Is that too much? That is about what other workers at non sweat shops get every year.


Employee pay is expected to raise by 3% this year. It was 2.9% in 2011, and 2.7% in 2012.

Also, the fact that Chicago's teachers are already so highly paid must be factored in. Whether or not they are already overcompensated is still a point of contention.
 
2012-09-11 11:02:06 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ongbok: They want a 4% raise. Is that too much? That is about what other workers at non sweat shops get every year.

Employee pay is expected to raise by 3% this year. It was 2.9% in 2011, and 2.7% in 2012 2010.

Also, the fact that Chicago's teachers are already so highly paid must be factored in. Whether or not they are already overcompensated is still a point of contention.


FTFM
 
2012-09-11 11:02:23 AM  

orclover: Normal people do not get cost of living increases in pay, ever.


When I served in the USAF I did every year. Sometimes twice a year. So either you are incorrect or I wasn't normal. Maybe both.
 
2012-09-11 11:02:38 AM  

Cletus C.: Here are the facts (outside of the pay raise crap) "Eager to improve Chicago's schools, Mr. Emanuel has taken several steps - among them pressing the school board to rescind a promised 4 percent raise - and made numerous demands that have infuriated the Chicago Teachers Union.


Cletus C.: The school district has offered a 16 percent raise over four years - double an 8 percent offer made earlier


What makes a 16% offer credible if they're already balking at a previously agreed upon 4% increase?
 
2012-09-11 11:02:38 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.


No, it isn't. That's farking mediocre at best. If we weren't just coming out of a recession, it'd be terrible.
 
2012-09-11 11:03:07 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ongbok: indylaw: Oh noez, the poor teachers making $76K plus benefits! Who shall speak for THEM??!

/voted for Obama before, will vote for him again.

Well to be fair I do believe that Chicago teachers are required to live within the city limits and Chicago is an expensive city to live in.


I lived in Chicago comfortably on $42K annually for quite some time, with crappier benefits. It's not NYC or anything.

Also they have to pay more into their health care and pensions than teachers in other cities have to. And another thing, every teacher isn't making that much. The ones that are making that much have had 20+ years in. I know that they are having a problem keeping younger teachers because the pay for them is lower than what they can get elsewhere.

Well, perhaps they should eliminate, or at least erode, seniority-based increases, and pay new teachers more. Balance the scales a little...same amount of money in the system, but a more level playing field. But, oh, they don't want to do that, either.


Tell us, do you make the same pay you did on the day you started in your profession? Should you personally reciebhve no benefit what so ever for your years of experience?
 
2012-09-11 11:03:21 AM  
Only in America do Americans condemn each other for making too much while cheering on the rich who make millions, commonly off of the same system. Conservative economic philosophies have infected this country with a virus that cannot be cured and is sure to be our death.
 
2012-09-11 11:03:23 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: orclover: Normal people do not get cost of living increases in pay, ever.

When I served in the USAF I did every year. Sometimes twice a year. So either you are incorrect or I wasn't normal. Maybe both.



Duh. That's a government job.
 
2012-09-11 11:03:30 AM  
All I know is that you aren't going to get me to move to within range of those Chicago schools and try to live through a Chicago commute every day to teach those kids in a non-air conditioned school with the windows locked closed and start me at just 50K. Even the 76K average salary seems low considering the area. Guess teachinz not for me. There are a lot of other areas that I'd pick first, I think that they have to pay more to get people to do the job.
 
2012-09-11 11:04:18 AM  
All this does is make me think of a Chicago Dog.
Mmmm....Chicago Dog.



i865.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-11 11:04:33 AM  

Rich Cream: Duh. That's a government job.


Ha!
 
2012-09-11 11:04:43 AM  

DamnYankees: Cletus C.: I'm telling you that. Many, many workers have had their salaries frozen for several years.

And this has to do with the teachers...how?


Exactly.
 
2012-09-11 11:05:15 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Tell us, do you make the same pay you did on the day you started in your profession? Should you personally reciebhve no benefit what so ever for your years of experience?


That is basing raises on survivability, not merit.

/no, I don't think there should be testing or loss of tenure etc
 
2012-09-11 11:05:35 AM  

impaler: DamnYankees: Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.

Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.

No, it's still a raise. Inflation is under 4%. It's just not a huge raise.

A 3.8% raise every year will result in a 16% raise over 4 years. Inflation generally hovers around 3-4%, but can be higher or lower. It's actually tough to say if it's a raise or not, because we don't know what inflation will be, but it is pretty darn close to an inflation adjusted salary.


And based on the increased hours Rahm wants teachers to work an independent arbitrator said they should get a 35% raise. The CTU went way down on that figure because money isn't the issue for them.
 
2012-09-11 11:05:36 AM  

bdub77: Let's not forget that the cost of living in Chicago probably rises faster than inflation, especially things like rent or the housing market.


The housing market here has crashed like everywhere else. The cost of living here sure doesn't seem much higher than it was 10 years ago. Can anyone find the annual numbers? I honestly cannot.
 
2012-09-11 11:06:55 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: bdub77: Let's not forget that the cost of living in Chicago probably rises faster than inflation, especially things like rent or the housing market.

The housing market here has crashed like everywhere else. The cost of living here sure doesn't seem much higher than it was 10 years ago. Can anyone find the annual numbers? I honestly cannot.


Maybe you're right. I just know that in general, most big cities have seen rises in housing prices over the long term, in some places by 10-15% a year.
 
2012-09-11 11:07:19 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: bdub77: Let's not forget that the cost of living in Chicago probably rises faster than inflation, especially things like rent or the housing market.

The housing market here has crashed like everywhere else. The cost of living here sure doesn't seem much higher than it was 10 years ago. Can anyone find the annual numbers? I honestly cannot.


you could at least use what your currently make and live and compare it to Chicago for a frame of reference
CNN COLA tool
 
2012-09-11 11:07:51 AM  

blahpers: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.

No, it isn't. That's farking mediocre at best. If we weren't just coming out of a recession, it'd be terrible.


From what I see in this thread most people must work at sweat shops or have just been brainwashed by republicans. Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.
 
2012-09-11 11:08:34 AM  

snowshovel: I could be wrong on this, but I thought that a big part of this was Rahm demanding that teachers teach an extra 90 minutes a day, while denying teachers a raise that was contractually due last year.

So yeah, I can see Ryan being for this..."Yay! Work more for less! Who cares what the contract said!"


The best part of this is, conservatives defended multi-million dollar bonuses to executives of bailed-out wall street firms because the bonuses were part of their contracts, and contracts must always be honored.
 
2012-09-11 11:08:48 AM  

odinsposse: And based on the increased hours Rahm wants teachers to work an independent arbitrator said they should get a 35% raise. The CTU went way down on that figure because money isn't the issue for them.


Again, assuming that one accepts that they are not overpaid already, which many do not assume. I would argue that going to a longer school day at their current pay rate would bring them closer in line to appropriate pay.

Bottom line: Chicago teachers are compensated well. Very well. Everyone who is debating this seems to be relying on speculative interpretation to back their points.
 
2012-09-11 11:09:38 AM  

DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.


And that's after the district decided it could ignore their previous contract with the union that guaranteed a 4% raise. The union isn't expected to actually see that 16% since they know the district is never going to come through with it after the first year.

Same thing is happening here in South Carolina. The state passed a law a few years ago stating that teachers would recieve pay raising tracking with inflation or COS increases, but had never actually produced the money. The last legislature wrote the budget appropriating money to pay for increase in health insurance premiums this year for state employees. Then the governor decided that 'appropriated' doesn't mean 'required to spend' and told the unions that they would have to pay for it.

If the union can't trust a state to keep it's side of the contract (and they obviously can't), then you can't honestly complain about what the state is going to have to pay them in two or three years.
 
2012-09-11 11:11:04 AM  

theteacher: Seriously. We are in the most infectious environment and we get sick a lot. I have 120 sick days accumulated because I show up. Even when I have a slight cold. I'm supposed to be penalized at the end of 35 years for COMING to work?


The Hawaiian solution is to realize how similar the classroom is to the leper colony. Isolate the children on an island and only let a unpaid Saint deal with them. Do most stuff by two way closed circuit TV and internet. It's a win-win. You can have your cake and still Damienize teachers.  And parents won't have to take off sick time either when the kids get sick.
 
2012-09-11 11:11:07 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: odinsposse: And based on the increased hours Rahm wants teachers to work an independent arbitrator said they should get a 35% raise. The CTU went way down on that figure because money isn't the issue for them.

Again, assuming that one accepts that they are not overpaid already, which many do not assume. I would argue that going to a longer school day at their current pay rate would bring them closer in line to appropriate pay.

Bottom line: Chicago teachers are compensated well. Very well. Everyone who is debating this seems to be relying on speculative interpretation to back their points.


Then it's a good thing they aren't arguing over pay, as many people have said and as I pointed out again in my post.
 
2012-09-11 11:11:19 AM  

ongbok: Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.


And people wonder why our economy is sputtering along. The middle class has no goddamn money to spend.
 
2012-09-11 11:12:36 AM  

ongbok: blahpers: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.

No, it isn't. That's farking mediocre at best. If we weren't just coming out of a recession, it'd be terrible.

From what I see in this thread most people must work at sweat shops or have just been brainwashed by republicans. Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.


The 4 percent is an increase on their base salary. They also get annual step increases based on years of employment as well as another increase if they add to their educational status.
 
2012-09-11 11:13:26 AM  

zedster: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: bdub77: Let's not forget that the cost of living in Chicago probably rises faster than inflation, especially things like rent or the housing market.

The housing market here has crashed like everywhere else. The cost of living here sure doesn't seem much higher than it was 10 years ago. Can anyone find the annual numbers? I honestly cannot.

you could at least use what your currently make and live and compare it to Chicago for a frame of reference
CNN COLA tool


According to the calculator, housing in Chicago costs 19% more than "my area". Another reason not to take a job there that starts at 50K and I need a masters and 16+ years on the job to get up to 76K. Detroit however is a bargain heh.
 
2012-09-11 11:15:24 AM  

ongbok: From what I see in this thread most people must work at sweat shops or have just been brainwashed by republicans. Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.


Several things: you see what you want. If it frightens you that not all liberals are like-minded automatons, so be it. Also, a 4% annual raise in an economy where
So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.
 
2012-09-11 11:19:19 AM  

ongbok: blahpers: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.

No, it isn't. That's farking mediocre at best. If we weren't just coming out of a recession, it'd be terrible.

From what I see in this thread most people must work at sweat shops or have just been brainwashed by republicans. Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.


Let me try again (Fark ruined my post):
Several things: you see what you want. If it frightens you that not all liberals are like-minded automatons, so be it. Also, a 4% annual raise in an economy where less than or equal to %3 is the norm IS LARGE. In addition, you continue to ignore the fact that Chicago teachers already make more than those in other markets, and no, Chicago is not that expensive relative to other big cities. Finally, in most occupations an annual raise implies some gradual additional responsibilities over time, and/or some sort of performance improvement as experience is gained. But we're talking about a profession where the job does not change appreciably from year to year, and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.

So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.
 
2012-09-11 11:22:51 AM  

odinsposse: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: odinsposse: And based on the increased hours Rahm wants teachers to work an independent arbitrator said they should get a 35% raise. The CTU went way down on that figure because money isn't the issue for them.

Again, assuming that one accepts that they are not overpaid already, which many do not assume. I would argue that going to a longer school day at their current pay rate would bring them closer in line to appropriate pay.

Bottom line: Chicago teachers are compensated well. Very well. Everyone who is debating this seems to be relying on speculative interpretation to back their points.

Then it's a good thing they aren't arguing over pay, as many people have said and as I pointed out again in my post.


Except that, you know...they are.
 
2012-09-11 11:24:09 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.


Because the "standards" for measuring that performance are severely flawed.
 
2012-09-11 11:25:12 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.


You're poorly expressed opinions, while hard to follow, lead me to believe I oppose whatever you are for. If I'm ever able to glean enough from your copious, but nebulous, posts to determine what you are for other than hating Chicago teachers I can assure you I will do so.
 
2012-09-11 11:25:24 AM  

impaler: When faced with a striking teachers union, do you?

A: Negotiate.
B: Outlaw teachers' ability to strike.


People have every right to strike. So...
C: Bring in scabs. Students and TAs from local higher institutions/
 
2012-09-11 11:28:02 AM  

TwoHead: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.

You're poorly expressed opinions, while hard to follow, lead me to believe I oppose whatever you are for. If I'm ever able to glean enough from your copious, but nebulous, posts to determine what you are for other than hating Chicago teachers I can assure you I will do so.


Who are you and why do I care, exactly?
 
2012-09-11 11:29:29 AM  

More_Like_A_Stain: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.

Because the "standards" for measuring that performance are severely flawed.


As is their argument for getting a 4% raise. So here we are.
 
2012-09-11 11:29:50 AM  
It's Chicago. I'm in Texas. I find it hard to drum up any outrage. I don't want our President too either. He truly has enough on his plate already.
 
2012-09-11 11:29:59 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: impaler: When faced with a striking teachers union, do you?

A: Negotiate.
B: Outlaw teachers' ability to strike.

People have every right to strike. So...
C: Bring in scabs. Students and TAs from local higher institutions/


So when your standards for qualified teachers become too expensive, lower your standards? Good plan.
 
2012-09-11 11:31:35 AM  
Lets increase pay to public workers while private sector employment remains crap with flat wages and rising cost of living.

Sounds like a great idea
 
2012-09-11 11:31:52 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Except that, you know...they are.


Why should I take your word over the word of the actual people protesting?
 
2012-09-11 11:32:28 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ongbok: blahpers: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DamnYankees: orclover: HOLEY shiat 16% farking PERCENT!?! Do you have any farking idea how big that is?

Over 4 years. Not massive.

In this economic climate? That's farking massive.

No, it isn't. That's farking mediocre at best. If we weren't just coming out of a recession, it'd be terrible.

From what I see in this thread most people must work at sweat shops or have just been brainwashed by republicans. Because for people to think that a 4% raise every year is massive, or that a person who has 16+ years on a job and a masters degree getting paid $70k+ is overpaid and doesn't deserve any annual raises, is just ridiculous.

Let me try again (Fark ruined my post):
Several things: you see what you want. If it frightens you that not all liberals are like-minded automatons, so be it. Also, a 4% annual raise in an economy where less than or equal to %3 is the norm IS LARGE. In addition, you continue to ignore the fact that Chicago teachers already make more than those in other markets, and no, Chicago is not that expensive relative to other big cities. Finally, in most occupations an annual raise implies some gradual additional responsibilities over time, and/or some sort of performance improvement as experience is gained. But we're talking about a profession where the job does not change appreciably from year to year, and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.

So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.


So a person who has 16+ plus years in and has earned a masters for their job should get paid 70k or get annual raises of 4%? And Chicago teachers get paid about the same as teachers in other comparable markets like NYC. Plus Chicago teachers also pay about 5% of their pay towards their healthcare. And Chicago is an expensive city to live in. Cook County has one of the highest, if not the highest sales tax rates in the country. And like I said before, most teachers are required to live in the city limits, unless you want to live in a armpit of a neighborhood that gets expensive in Chicago when you can't live in the suburbs.
 
2012-09-11 11:32:29 AM  
"Teachers are overpaid" = plain old common sense.

"CEOs are overpaid" = OMG CLASS WARFARE!
 
2012-09-11 11:32:55 AM  

odinsposse: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Except that, you know...they are.

Why should I take your word over the word of the actual people protesting?


Meh, what do those people know about the situation?
 
2012-09-11 11:33:25 AM  

mobile_home_refush: It's Chicago. I'm in Texas. I find it hard to drum up any outrage. I don't want our President too either. He truly has enough on his plate already.


Just like he stayed out of the Wisconsin thing, right?
 
2012-09-11 11:34:03 AM  

More_Like_A_Stain: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.

Because the "standards" for measuring that performance are severely flawed.


The reason that they don't like the current standards is this. Say you are teaching 5th grade. You have a bunch of dumb kids... but, you are a good teacher. You teach to the test like they want you to and get them to do better than average on the test. Excellent. You get a bonus. Next year, another bunch of dumb kids, just like the last bunch. In fact, maybe they are worse because the district is going downhill. But now, to get your bonus, you have to teach them better than last year, even though you did an exceptional job last year and these new kids are the same or worse. And gee, the class is bigger and there are two mainstreamed special needs kids instead of one. At some point, maybe you just can't improve any more and you are labeled a "bad teacher" no bonus for you. Sort of like an assembly line where they keep increasing your quota until you fail, then punish you.
 
2012-09-11 11:36:11 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Let me try again (Fark ruined my post):
Several things: you see what you want. If it frightens you that not all liberals are like-minded automatons, so be it. Also, a 4% annual raise in an economy where less than or equal to %3 is the norm IS LARGE.


I have no doubt you're correct but a 4% raise in this economy is an EMBARRASSMENT. Health care costs to employees alone rise on average 7% a year. . Anything less than that and your real income as an employee is declining. That's before figuring the other costs of rising food, transportation and general inflation that mainly fark over working folks.

The Fortune 500 company I work for has a 2% median target for all employees across your workgroup. I'm flat out ashamed when I have to tell a well-performing employee at their annual review that they're doing a terrific job, the customers love them so here's your 2% raise in recognition. Like most companies mine is sitting on loads of cash. It's farking bullshiat.
 
2012-09-11 11:37:27 AM  

o5iiawah: Lets increase pay to public workers while private sector employment remains crap with flat wages and rising cost of living.

Sounds like a great idea


It actually might have a stimulus effect, since those public workers will spend the extra cash on local goods and services. (Unless you think those public workers are just going stuff all that extra money into their mattresses.)

Your argument basically boils down to "the market isn't paying people fairly, so the government shouldn't either."
 
2012-09-11 11:39:49 AM  

KarmicDisaster: Sort of like an assembly line where they keep increasing your quota until you fail, then punish you.


The private sector already works this way. The people against the teachers' unions have only one motivator: jealousy.
Anyone who says $70K is too much an annual salary for a Master's degree and 20 years of experience, coupled with having to live in high-cost Chicago, needs a foot broken off up their ass.
 
2012-09-11 11:39:59 AM  
It is not just the raise. It is the increase in classroom sizes and work hours. Essentially, the teachers have been told to do more for less, with less, and, oh, we're going to evaluate you based on test scores, so enjoy those extra three or four students in your room. The raise will help offset that. My wife teaches high school in Virginia. There has been no raise in many, many years. I teach college, where our "raise" is a "bonus" based on the amount of funding the president cuts from the college budget.

Face it, teachers are routinely shiat upon in the U.S.

One or two of those things, the union probably would have agreed to. All of them? It's stupid.
 
2012-09-11 11:43:51 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: TwoHead: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: So...seriously, what the fark? People who are inherently auto-knee-jerk pro-union in every case are just as bad as the teahadists on the flip-side of that.

You're poorly expressed opinions, while hard to follow, lead me to believe I oppose whatever you are for. If I'm ever able to glean enough from your copious, but nebulous, posts to determine what you are for other than hating Chicago teachers I can assure you I will do so.

Who are you and why do I care, exactly?


You are asking the wrong questions. You should be thinking more of who you are and why we should care about your poorly formed and expressed opinions, but I guess if you were capable of such we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Who am I? I am a person who noted your call for higher wages for new hires at the expense of continued increases for existing teachers. This seemed to imply you were not able to grasp the concept that while that might increase new hire retention it would greatly increase the departure rate of experienced educators. Logically this would lead to education becoming an entry level job rather than an avocation and eliminate the benefits of experience from the field almost entirely.

Why should you care? Self respect!
 
2012-09-11 11:46:59 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: DamnYankees: Over 4 years. Not massive.

Also with inflation that works out to be a pay cut.


No, it doesn't.
 
2012-09-11 11:47:02 AM  

KarmicDisaster: More_Like_A_Stain: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: and a group that has explicitly insisted that they NOT be measured by performance.

Because the "standards" for measuring that performance are severely flawed.

The reason that they don't like the current standards is this. Say you are teaching 5th grade. You have a bunch of dumb kids... but, you are a good teacher. You teach to the test like they want you to and get them to do better than average on the test. Excellent. You get a bonus. Next year, another bunch of dumb kids, just like the last bunch. In fact, maybe they are worse because the district is going downhill. But now, to get your bonus, you have to teach them better than last year, even though you did an exceptional job last year and these new kids are the same or worse. And gee, the class is bigger and there are two mainstreamed special needs kids instead of one. At some point, maybe you just can't improve any more and you are labeled a "bad teacher" no bonus for you. Sort of like an assembly line where they keep increasing your quota until you fail, then punish you.


I'm aware of that. My sister is a teacher. 15 years on the job and a Masters. In addition to the ever increasing assembly line that you speak of, there is less opportunity to actually utilize her experience in any meaningful way. She tells me that now she has absolutely no latitude whatsoever regarding the curriculum or teaching plan. The district is very explicit in precisely what information will be passed to students, and the exact method in which it will be passed. Any deviation on her part will reflect negatively in her performance reviews. As to the effectiveness of the plan, her input is not welcome. It has already been decided at a level somewhere above her pay grade. However, if the plan does not yield the expected results, it is her fault. Failure to meet these results for (I think she said) two years will result in suspension of her certificate.
 
2012-09-11 11:48:34 AM  

ongbok: And like I said before, most teachers are required to live in the city limits,


Is this really true? I know it has been said more than once but it sounds like fake.
 
2012-09-11 11:57:25 AM  

Renart: o5iiawah: Lets increase pay to public workers while private sector employment remains crap with flat wages and rising cost of living.

Sounds like a great idea

It actually might have a stimulus effect, since those public workers will spend the extra cash on local goods and services. (Unless you think those public workers are just going stuff all that extra money into their mattresses.)

Your argument basically boils down to "the market isn't paying people fairly, so the government shouldn't either."


There isn't a stimulus effect unless you think that the people who are going to see their taxes increase are going to stuff that money into their mattresses or bury it into the backyard. you dont create stimulus by taking money away from someone that's going to spend it and giving it to someone else who is going spend it.
 
2012-09-11 12:02:28 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: impaler: When faced with a striking teachers union, do you?

A: Negotiate.
B: Outlaw teachers' ability to strike.

People have every right to strike*. So...


* offer void in Wisconsin
 
2012-09-11 12:03:28 PM  

Rich Cream: Rich Cream: My grandmother taught a one room schoolhouse in PA, I have the handbook sill.

Yes, there IS a section on Grammar.


Is a grammar sill like a times table?
 
2012-09-11 12:07:03 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: orclover: Normal people do not get cost of living increases in pay, ever.

When I served in the USAF I did every year. Sometimes twice a year. So either you are incorrect or I wasn't normal. Maybe both.


Did you get paid as much as a teacher, and did you have the right to strike?

/runs away
 
2012-09-11 12:09:58 PM  

o5iiawah: There isn't a stimulus effect unless you think that the people who are going to see their taxes increase are going to stuff that money into their mattresses or bury it into the backyard. you dont create stimulus by taking money away from someone that's going to spend it and giving it to someone else who is going spend it.


How much do you think taxes would go up for middle-class Chicagoans if the CTU has its way?
 
2012-09-11 12:17:08 PM  

TimonC346: I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed. Their contract wasn't being honored, and the offer of a replacement was a piece of shiat. So they negotiated. It didn't work. This is their new message.

Paul Ryan has balls calling out anyone in the public sector considering how comfortably he's lived off of Social Security, then forgets to mention it when he talks about his bootstrappiness.


If you think people making $76k plus benefits are okay in turning down a 16% raise over four years when most people are lucky to even hang on to a job these days, YOU are part of the problem.
 
2012-09-11 12:19:24 PM  

Brubold: TimonC346: I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed. Their contract wasn't being honored, and the offer of a replacement was a piece of shiat. So they negotiated. It didn't work. This is their new message.

Paul Ryan has balls calling out anyone in the public sector considering how comfortably he's lived off of Social Security, then forgets to mention it when he talks about his bootstrappiness.

If you think people making $76k plus benefits are okay in turning down a 16% raise over four years when most people are lucky to even hang on to a job these days, YOU are part of the problem.


Yes, race to the bottom faster! You don't want to be left behind! Demand a pay cut so that you can pull back ahead and be a part of the solution!
 
2012-09-11 12:23:04 PM  

Brubold: If you think people making $76k plus benefits are okay in turning down a 16% raise over four years when most people are lucky to even hang on to a job these days, YOU are part of the problem.


How does denying the teachers a raise help the people with precarious jobs. I want to see THE MATH!
 
2012-09-11 01:10:54 PM  

Brubold: TimonC346: I'm a teacher, and reading about this makes me really sad. I'm annoyed with the idea that all teachers are entitled little brats. These guys in Chicago were getting screwed. Their contract wasn't being honored, and the offer of a replacement was a piece of shiat. So they negotiated. It didn't work. This is their new message.

Paul Ryan has balls calling out anyone in the public sector considering how comfortably he's lived off of Social Security, then forgets to mention it when he talks about his bootstrappiness.

If you think people making $76k plus benefits are okay in turning down a 16% raise over four years when most people are lucky to even hang on to a job these days, YOU are part of the problem.


How much Newsmaxx do you read? They didn't strike because of this you moron. they are on strike because of linking test scores to teacher performance reviews.

Say for example you are a payroll officer. Or a tutor even. And your client, whomever that may be, stops coming to school. Never checks in with you. Do you deserve to be crapped upon because of that?
 
2012-09-11 01:23:07 PM  
Did anyone else notice that everyone's proposals result in thousands of layoffs in the best case? I have a bit of a hard time supporting pay raises while reducing payroll from a labor perspective. Honestly, I am a pro union guy raised by a union teacher mother, but I have a hard time supporting a union that is fighting for more money for some of its members and the unemployment line for thousands of others.
 
2012-09-11 01:41:08 PM  
Wow, just wow.

This strike is really about the privatization of public schools. The "Race to the Top" program, which is just a continuation of "Head Start", block grants money to school districts if they perform certain tasks. One of which is instituting these test score requirements and another is "turning schools around" by changing them from public schools to charter schools. There is a reason why people want to privatize public institutions, wait for it.... so they can make money off it. The same thing is happening with the post office being required to pay for 75 years worth of their future retiries in just 10 years making it look like they are failing when in fact they would be turning a small profit.

It is no accident that this is taking place at the birth place of the Chicago Boys. Anyone who thinks this is about teacher pay obviously has not asked a teacher why they are striking.

It's like some of you are welcoming the return of the gilded age.
 
2012-09-11 01:54:25 PM  

Renart: How much do you think taxes would go up for middle-class Chicagoans if the CTU has its way?


It doesn't matter how much they go up. The net gain of stimulus by more money in the hands of the CTU is a net loss in the aggregate purchasing power of the Chicago tax base.


The argument isn't about whether or not teachers deserve it or if people are paying enough taxes. A statement was made that more money in the hands of the CTU would be stimulative and this is wrong.
 
2012-09-11 01:59:11 PM  

o5iiawah: Renart: How much do you think taxes would go up for middle-class Chicagoans if the CTU has its way?

It doesn't matter how much they go up. The net gain of stimulus by more money in the hands of the CTU is a net loss in the aggregate purchasing power of the Chicago tax base.


The argument isn't about whether or not teachers deserve it or if people are paying enough taxes. A statement was made that more money in the hands of the CTU would be stimulative and this is wrong.


It would be a wash on the larger scale, but a plus for the city of Chicago. Taxes drawn from property owners outside the City would be redirected to consumers within the city.
 
2012-09-11 02:05:13 PM  
 
2012-09-11 02:27:15 PM  

MasterThief: These teachers making $76,000 per year plus benefits


Good for them. Jealous? Think it's unfair? Become a teacher. The world needs more of them. Don't drag them down with you in your defeatist loser mentality.

MasterThief: they have tenure,


Nowhere in your article does it mention anything about tenure. But good job on getting that little conservative buzzword in there to make teachers look like lazy do-nothings who rely on tenure just to keep their jobs. It surely doesn't make you look like an asshole to anyone who has ever known a teacher. Surely.

MasterThief: and they want a 4% pay raise (inflation is 2%)


FYFA: "Emanuel promised a 4 percent pay raise to teachers last year but dropped that to 2 percent a year for four years because of the district's dire financial situation. The school district negotiators raised the offer to 3 percent a year over four years in a new offer made to the union Sunday, Reuters said. "

MasterThief: plus no evaluation based on test scores


FYFA: "Assessment experts have said repeatedly this is a bad idea - including a group of Illinois researchers and academics who sent an open letter last March to Emanuel school officials warning against implementing a teacher evaluation system based on standardized test scores."

MasterThief: kneecapping of charter schools (which, BTW, remain open while the teachers strike)


FYFA: "Most of the city's charter schools have no unions and the union is worried that with declining student population as well as poor academic performance, many traditional public schools will be closed and unionized teachers will lose their jobs. The charter schools overall have a mixed academic record, but Emanuel, as well as school reformers in other cities, look on them as one of the things that will improve public education. Critics don't agree."

So, to summarize, learn how to farking read the articles you use to support yourself. And while you're at it (since you love acronyms so much), EABOD and DIAF.
 
2012-09-11 02:30:43 PM  

un4gvn666: So, to summarize, learn how to farking read the articles you use to support yourself. And while you're at it (since you love acronyms so much), EABOD and DIAF.


Here
www.orangepower.com
Your's is broken.
 
2012-09-11 02:47:07 PM  

MasterThief: These teachers making $76,000 per year plus benefits, they have tenure, and they want a 4% pay raise (inflation is 2%), plus no evaluation based on test scores and kneecapping of charter schools (which, BTW, remain open while the teachers strike)?

Yeah, I agree with both Emmanuel and Ryan.

[i398.photobucket.com image 400x313] 

/also, GBTW
//someone needs to go PATCO on their asses
///acronyms are fun


I don't know the details of this but maybe they are asking for a 4% increase (double-inflation) because they haven't had a raise in multiple years. I know that is how it works typically.
 
2012-09-11 02:51:30 PM  

o5iiawah: It doesn't matter how much they go up. The net gain of stimulus by more money in the hands of the CTU is a net loss in the aggregate purchasing power of the Chicago tax base.


The argument isn't about whether or not teachers deserve it or if people are paying enough taxes. A statement was made that more money in the hands of the CTU would be stimulative and this is wrong.


Well, I said it might have a stimulus effect, not that it would, and until we know actual figures you haven't proven your case. If the taxpayers "lose" the same amount as the teachers "win," how is that an aggregate loss? The teachers pay taxes, too, you know.

(Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?)
 
2012-09-11 02:56:36 PM  

Renart: (Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?)


I don't know if you are understanding him or not, but you damn sure don't understand the teachers.
 
2012-09-11 03:00:30 PM  

Magruda: un4gvn666: So, to summarize, learn how to farking read the articles you use to support yourself. And while you're at it (since you love acronyms so much), EABOD and DIAF.

Here
[www.orangepower.com image 270x221]
Your's is broken.


fark that. Some right-wing derp-wrangler, or some clueless passerby "undecided" will read that nonsense and think he has a point, even when he certainly doesn't. He may have been joking or trolling, and honestly, he's welcome to do so, but I'm just not foolish enough to believe most people will dismiss that nonsense on their own without the facts laid out for them.

Let's not forget, the only reason Mitt Romney can even be considered a challenger to President Obama is because of the sheer volume of toxic and false bullshiat he spews out into the air unimpeded by the media. If we had that "liberal media" conservatives always whine about, Mitt Romney, and most of the Republican Party, would be shuttered in their homes, afraid to come out due to the endless volleys of tomatoes and lettuce that would be hurled in their direction on account of their monumental ignorance. So somebody has to put in the effort.
 
MFK
2012-09-11 03:03:07 PM  
because fark teachers, that's why
 
2012-09-11 03:03:55 PM  

un4gvn666: He may have been joking or trolling, and honestly, he's welcome to do so, but I'm just not foolish enough to believe most people will dismiss that nonsense on their own without the facts laid out for them.


The facts are laid out in the link. Yes most people are very stupid, welcome to Fark.

un4gvn666: Let's not forget, the only reason Mitt Romney can even be considered a challenger to President Obama is because of the sheer volume of toxic and false bullshiat he spews out into the air unimpeded by the media.


I'm voting Green Party this year.
 
2012-09-11 03:12:34 PM  

Magruda: I don't know if you are understanding him or not, but you damn sure don't understand the teachers.


But you do, I'm sure. Tell us, what gives you this insider knowledge?
 
2012-09-11 03:20:46 PM  

Magruda: I'm voting Green Party this year.


After reading their party platform, if I wasn't worried that I was throwing my vote away, they'd have it.
 
2012-09-11 03:30:46 PM  

un4gvn666: Magruda: I'm voting Green Party this year.

After reading their party platform, if I wasn't worried that I was throwing my vote away, they'd have it.


Letting you believe that you'd be throwing away your vote is how they keep the two party system going. Take a look at this interview Bill Moyers did this sunday with the canidates. Very informative. Just skip past the Bernie Sanders part to get to their interview.

Renart: Magruda: I don't know if you are understanding him or not, but you damn sure don't understand the teachers.

But you do, I'm sure. Tell us, what gives you this insider knowledge?


Well since you ask, besides the obvious "I've done actual research on the topic", my wife is a teacher. If you want to know what the teachers are fighting for go straight to the source.
 
2012-09-11 03:33:33 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Taxes drawn from property owners outside the City would be redirected to consumers within the city.


Likewise business which might have otherwise competed for those dollars before they were taxed away would suffer at the expense of businesses within the city limits or who are more likely to be patronized by teachers.

Renart: Well, I said it might have a stimulus effect, not that it would, and until we know actual figures you haven't proven your case. If the taxpayers "lose" the same amount as the teachers "win," how is that an aggregate loss? The teachers pay taxes, too, you know.


It might stimulate certain industries but only at the expense of other industries. Lets just say that in order to approve the CTU's demands, the City of Chicago will have to increase property taxes which would affect the average family by $100/yr. That money is re-distributed to the CTU and the teachers who then spend it. We look at the effects of teachers with larger salaries and think that is stimulative because they are out "spending money" but we ignore the negative effects of removing $100 worth of purchasing power from every taxpayer.

It might not be much per person, maybe a trip to the pizza shop, an accessory for the car or something small but in the aggregate, those products are never produced or services never rendered. The money always comes from somewhere.
 
2012-09-11 03:36:53 PM  

o5iiawah: It might stimulate certain industries but only at the expense of other industries. Lets just say that in order to approve the CTU's demands, the City of Chicago will have to increase property taxes which would affect the average family by $100/yr. That money is re-distributed to the CTU and the teachers who then spend it. We look at the effects of teachers with larger salaries and think that is stimulative because they are out "spending money" but we ignore the negative effects of removing $100 worth of purchasing power from every taxpayer.

It might not be much per person, maybe a trip to the pizza shop, an accessory for the car or something small but in the aggregate, those products are never produced or services never rendered. The money always comes from somewhere.


So lets privatize them into charter schools so rich men can put their "fees" in accounts in the Caymen Islands. That is sure to help spur the economy.
 
2012-09-11 03:47:23 PM  

Magruda: Well since you ask, besides the obvious "I've done actual research on the topic", my wife is a teacher. If you want to know what the teachers are fighting for go straight to the source.


I support the teachers' strike. I think you might have thought I wrote what o5iiawah did. I didn't.

o5iiawah: It might stimulate certain industries but only at the expense of other industries. Lets just say that in order to approve the CTU's demands, the City of Chicago will have to increase property taxes which would affect the average family by $100/yr. That money is re-distributed to the CTU and the teachers who then spend it. We look at the effects of teachers with larger salaries and think that is stimulative because they are out "spending money" but we ignore the negative effects of removing $100 worth of purchasing power from every taxpayer.

It might not be much per person, maybe a trip to the pizza shop, an accessory for the car or something small but in the aggregate, those products are never produced or services never rendered. The money always comes from somewhere.


So where does the $100 go? It doesn't just disappear.

The real question is how much should teachers be paid and how much control over their work should they have. I think they should be paid much more along the lines of other college-educated professionals and have similar control over how they do their jobs. Emanuel's defenders seem to disagree, unless they work for charter schools. If property owners have slightly less money per year in order to effect this change, I'm fine with it. Higher salaries for teachers would attract smarter and better qualified people to the profession, and students would have better schools.

Demoralizing the people who are teaching the children is not going to improve schools. I find the shock, anger, and whining about the fact that teachers have higher-than-average salaries to be ridiculous. They have one of the most important jobs in the country. Why shouldn't they make more than the average salary? Why shouldn't they make a lot more?
 
2012-09-11 03:52:55 PM  

Renart: Magruda: Well since you ask, besides the obvious "I've done actual research on the topic", my wife is a teacher. If you want to know what the teachers are fighting for go straight to the source.

I support the teachers' strike. I think you might have thought I wrote what o5iiawah did. I didn't.


But they are not striking over pay. Pay is the only legal means they have to strike, it's like some Orwellian system where their only legal recourse for greivances deamonizes their cause in the public media. Thanks to that little clause in their contract the opposition can make it seem like they just want more money and crusify them on the stage of public opinion.
 
2012-09-11 04:00:16 PM  

Magruda: But they are not striking over pay. Pay is the only legal means they have to strike, it's like some Orwellian system where their only legal recourse for greivances deamonizes their cause in the public media. Thanks to that little clause in their contract the opposition can make it seem like they just want more money and crusify them on the stage of public opinion.


Yes, I know, but I was arguing against the idea that increasing teachers' pay was somehow bad for the economy. I know it's not the central or only aspect of CTU's position.
 
2012-09-11 04:08:15 PM  

Renart: Magruda: But they are not striking over pay. Pay is the only legal means they have to strike, it's like some Orwellian system where their only legal recourse for greivances deamonizes their cause in the public media. Thanks to that little clause in their contract the opposition can make it seem like they just want more money and crusify them on the stage of public opinion.

Yes, I know, but I was arguing against the idea that increasing teachers' pay was somehow bad for the economy. I know it's not the central or only aspect of CTU's position.


Then why fall for the distraction?
 
2012-09-11 04:15:57 PM  

Magruda: Then why fall for the distraction?


Err, I don't think I fell for a distraction. I was attacking what people on the right (and many liberals, sadly) seem to think is their strongest point, that we "can't afford" to pay teachers any more than what they're making now. I realize there are other issues involved.
 
2012-09-11 04:23:25 PM  

Renart: I was attacking what people on the right (and many liberals, sadly) seem to think is their strongest point, that we "can't afford" to pay teachers any more than what they're making now.


If you let them frame the discussion, they win. The teachers and Rahm have already come to an agreement over pay. It is a red herring to let it continue to be the topic of debate.
 
2012-09-11 04:41:20 PM  

Magruda: If you let them frame the discussion, they win. The teachers and Rahm have already come to an agreement over pay. It is a red herring to let it continue to be the topic of debate.


Well, I was trying to break the frame, not fit into it. Budget panic and the idea that public workers are paid too much come up in every pro-austerity movement around the world. It's not letting them frame the debate to demand evidence for the assertion that raising property taxes slightly to pay for a teacher salary raise will hurt the economy.

But you're quite right to point out that the teachers are fighting for much, much more than just their paychecks.
 
2012-09-11 06:03:03 PM  
They've always been on the same side.


orclover
These workers are already dining on steak and caviar.

How dare they. Don't they understand that life is supposed to be miserable? That hunger and want are supposed to be found among millions of working people and that the few who make up the employing class should have all the good things in life?


SacriliciousBeerSwiller
Again, assuming that one accepts that they are not overpaid already, which many do not assume. I would argue that going to a longer school day at their current pay rate would bring them closer in line to appropriate pay.

I don't make as much as them so fark them.


More_Like_A_Stain
I'm aware of that. My sister is a teacher. ... Failure to meet these results for (I think she said) two years will result in suspension of her certificate.

Striking is futile. The teachers need to take over.


Magruda
This strike is really about the privatization of public schools.

/thread
 
2012-09-11 06:04:34 PM  
Magruda
it's like some Orwellian system where their only legal recourse for greivances deamonizes their cause in the public media.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Since Taft-Hartley, everything effective is made illegal.
 
MFL
2012-09-11 06:05:56 PM  
1. The average Chicago teacher who retired after 30 years of employment had a final salary of $105,888 and will receive an annual pension of $78,576.

2. That puts the average Chicago teacher in the top five percent of all workers nationwide.

3. The average salary of a teacher in Chicago is $74,839

4. The average salary of an administrator in a Chicago school is $120,659.

5. Chicago spends $13,078 per student every year.

6. Chicago public schools have among the shortest school day in the country at 5 hours and 45 minutes

7. Mayor Emanuel proposed lengthening it to around seven hours and offered a two percent pay raise in compensation. But the union demanded more hires.

8. The average household in Chicago makes $47,000. Teachers are thus making more than 50 percent more than those who pay their salaries.

9. The teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over the next four years.

10. They asked for a 30 percent raise over four years.

11. They are opposing the implementation of evaluating teachers through student testing.

12. The union is also striking against merit pay for high-performing teachers.

13. Only 6 out of 10 Chicago public school students graduate.

14. 71% of all Chicago public school funding goes towards teacher pensions.

15. Chicago public teachers pay very little of their own salary towards their generous benefits.

16. Chicago is broke.

This is what you get when government workers collectively bargain with the same people they get elected.

As much as I can't stand Rahm, he is dealing with a bunch of spoiled children who have no idea how good they have it. He at least is somewhat of the adult in this situation.

The school board should take the 16% raise off the table and tell them to get back to work or pack up their shiat. There are plenty of qualified people out of work that would gladly take their place in this shiatty economy and wouldn't mind actually working 7 hours a day, 9 months out of the year for 75K and some benefits folks in the private sector could only dream of having.
 
2012-09-11 06:16:07 PM  

MFL: The school board should take the 16% raise off the table and tell them to get back to work or pack up their shiat. There are plenty of qualified people out of work that would gladly take their place in this shiatty economy and wouldn't mind actually working 7 hours a day, 9 months out of the year for 75K and some benefits folks in the private sector could only dream of having.


You must have missed the part where teachers in this bracket have a DOCTORATE in education. That and your facts smell like your bunghole.
 
2012-09-11 06:35:12 PM  

MFL: 1. The average Chicago teacher who retired after 30 years of employment had a final salary of $105,888 and will receive an annual pension of $78,576.


Good for them. Teaching is a valuable profession and pay should be high to attract the best and brightest. Cutting salaries will only drive away good teachers that could get better employment elsewhere.

2. That puts the average Chicago teacher in the top five percent of all workers nationwide.


Again, good for them.

3. The average salary of a teacher in Chicago is $74,839
I'd say that's fair for someone with a Master's degree.

4. The average salary of an administrator in a Chicago school is $120,659.
And...?

5. Chicago spends $13,078 per student every year.
And they can't get their books to them on time?

6. Chicago public schools have among the shortest school day in the country at 5 hours and 45 minutes

I'm sure you're aware a teacher's workday doesn't correspond exactly to class time.

7. Mayor Emanuel proposed lengthening it to around seven hours and offered a two percent pay raise in compensation. But the union demanded more hires.

If your boss came in and told you to do 20% more work for 2% more pay, wouldn't you desire better compensation, or more help? Not everyone enjoys taking it up the ass from their boss.

8. The average household in Chicago makes $47,000. Teachers are thus making more than 50 percent more than those who pay their salaries.
And the average CEO makes 400 times the salary of the average worker. 4 out of 5 small businesses fail in the first year. Relevancy? None whatsoever. This is nothing but a factoid to make it seem as thought the teachers are stealing from taxpayers. You should be ashamed of your misdirection.

9. The teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over the next four years.
And this is bad because.... hurrr... teachers are overpaid? If you're trying to attract better teachers (like your final paragraph seems to indicate), the idea is to have good compensation to attract good workers from other fields.

10. They asked for a 30 percent raise over four years.
See above.

11. They are opposing the implementation of evaluating teachers through student testing.
Standardized tests are not an indication of teaching skill., and never will be.

12. The union is also striking against merit pay for high-performing teachers.
No, they're not. You made that up.

13. Only 6 out of 10 Chicago public school students graduate.
The only one where you might genuinely have a point other than "Teachers paid too much." But this can hardly be blamed on the teachers alone, and as I've said before, lowering compensation is only going to drive away good teachers.

14. 71% of all Chicago public school funding goes towards teacher pensions.
See 9.

15. Chicago public teachers pay very little of their own salary towards their generous benefits.
See 9.

16. Chicago is broke.

Subjective, and only meant to reinforce the false notion that teachers are stealing from taxpayers.

You might at least want to combine a few of your more redundant items.

1. Teachers bad. Make money. Summers off. Grrr. Bad.
2. Teachers steal tax money. Grrr. Bad.
3. Teachers make bad graduation rate all by themselves. Grrr. Bad.

There. Easier to read, and sums up your arguments much more concisely.

I don't suppose you have anything to say about those grossly overpaid CEOs I mentioned? If you hate teachers and think they're overpaid, you'd better sit down before reading about how much the CEOs make driving companies into the ground.
 
2012-09-11 06:37:47 PM  

Magruda: You must have missed the part where teachers in this bracket have a DOCTORATE in education. That and your facts smell like your bunghole.


Wow. The average teacher in Chicago has a doctorate? I'm impressed.
 
2012-09-11 06:42:56 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: 3. The average salary of a teacher in Chicago is $74,839
I'd say that's fair for someone with a Master's degree.


Oh, the average teacher has a master's. Well, which is it?
 
2012-09-11 06:51:45 PM  

jigger: Magruda: You must have missed the part where teachers in this bracket have a DOCTORATE in education. That and your facts smell like your bunghole.

Wow. The average teacher in Chicago has a doctorate? I'm impressed.


You got me. The teachers at the high end of the pay scale 80k+ have doctorates, the low end 40k+ have bachelors, and the middle have masters.

These are all much lower than the national average for those with similar education levels.
 
2012-09-11 06:55:47 PM  
Under the currently binding contract (pdf), 2010-11 annual teacher salaries ranged from $47,268 for teachers with bachelor's degree with a year's experience or less, to $88,680 for those with doctorates who have at least 16 years of experience. Those in schools with longer school years (42.6 weeks or 52 compared to 38.6) make commensurately more. All told, teachers in Chicago make an average of $74,839 a year.
 
2012-09-11 07:27:00 PM  

Renart: So where does the $100 go? It doesn't just disappear.


It doesn't disappear, I never argued that it would. A previous poster had commented that this would stimulate the economy because the teachers would be out spending their raises.
All I did was point out the fallacy
 
2012-09-11 10:50:36 PM  

MFL: 1. The average Chicago teacher who retired after 30 years of employment had a final salary of $105,888 and will receive an annual pension of $78,576.

2. That puts the average Chicago teacher in the top five percent of all workers nationwide.

3. The average salary of a teacher in Chicago is $74,839

4. The average salary of an administrator in a Chicago school is $120,659.

5. Chicago spends $13,078 per student every year.

6. Chicago public schools have among the shortest school day in the country at 5 hours and 45 minutes

7. Mayor Emanuel proposed lengthening it to around seven hours and offered a two percent pay raise in compensation. But the union demanded more hires.

8. The average household in Chicago makes $47,000. Teachers are thus making more than 50 percent more than those who pay their salaries.

9. The teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over the next four years.

10. They asked for a 30 percent raise over four years.

11. They are opposing the implementation of evaluating teachers through student testing.

12. The union is also striking against merit pay for high-performing teachers.

13. Only 6 out of 10 Chicago public school students graduate.

14. 71% of all Chicago public school funding goes towards teacher pensions.

15. Chicago public teachers pay very little of their own salary towards their generous benefits.

16. Chicago is broke.

This is what you get when government workers collectively bargain with the same people they get elected.

As much as I can't stand Rahm, he is dealing with a bunch of spoiled children who have no idea how good they have it. He at least is somewhat of the adult in this situation.

The school board should take the 16% raise off the table and tell them to get back to work or pack up their shiat. There are plenty of qualified people out of work that would gladly take their place in this shiatty economy and wouldn't mind actually working 7 hours a day, 9 months out of the year for 75K and some benefits fo ...


I don't support the School board or the union. I support the children. How can teachers complain about shiatty situations from which kids come and say they can't help them, but take the goo gobs of money (relative to the avg income in Chicago)? Teachers seem fairly compensated.
 
2012-09-12 06:52:09 AM  

generaltimmy: Teachers seem fairly compensated.


Not only that, but about 40% of them, Mayor Emmanuel included, send their own kids to private school.

Public schools for thee, not for me
 
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