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(The Atlantic)   Pre-existing conditions are hard for the GOP. They're the center of the Venn Diagram of "People Ayn Rand Said To Ignore" and "People Jesus Said To Help"   (theatlantic.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, venn diagrams, GOP, pre-existing condition, Yuval Levin  
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16327 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Sep 2012 at 12:17 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-10 11:35:00 PM  

deadplant: Ranting and raving about "right-wingers" and "left-wingers" and capitalism and socialism is beyond unhelpful, it is actively counter-productive. The next person to scream *socialism* or mockingly ask "what would republican Jesus do?" should punch themselves in the cock.


That would make a lot more sense if you were talking about "capitalism and communism" instead of "capitalism and socialism"

Socialism is a kind of compromise between communism and capitalism, a sort of mixed economy. It's really quite sad that people are attacking socialism as if it were only a whisker's breadth away from communism, when it's really much closer to the middle of the economic spectrum. But then, the people who think "socialism" is a dirty word also think "liberal" is an insult, and fine distinctions (or even gross distinctions) are often beyond them. 

But then, I guess the North Pole and the Equator look pretty close to each other, if you're looking from Neptune.
 
2012-09-10 11:39:36 PM  

blahpers: Silly Jesus: Straelbora: Silly Jesus: [images.cheezburger.com image 500x288]

The healthcare system is screwed up in this country, but they aren't charities.

Apples: "Wow. I didn't plan properly/couldn't afford adequate car insurance and now I don't have a car. I guess I'll have to take the bus, or bum rides, or just walk to get where I need to go."

Oranges: "Wow. I didn't have a job that provided health insurance and now I found out I have a potentially fatal congenital heart defect. I guess I'll just have to - ?"

I said the healthcare industry is farked up, but that doesn't mean that insurance companies should be expected to be charities any more than you'd expect the grocery store to give you free food if you were hungry. It's a business and it can't function for anyone if you sign up after you get sick, suck out tons of money, and then drop coverage when you are well. Nobody will have insurance if that's how you want it to work.

You're right. Insurance companies are businesses, and they shouldn't be expected to sell a product at a loss.

Which is why health care shouldn't not be the province of business. The health insurance as we know it shouldn't even exist. Health is not a product.


Fair enough.
 
2012-09-10 11:46:41 PM  

Egalitarian: Yeah, that's how libertarians are, too. Poor people somehow magically disappear without causing trouble, not even the stench from their rotting dead bodies. There will be no impoverished ragged peeps breaking into your house, killing you for food. There will be no mobs swayed by demagogues to kill the rich or non-believers. There will always be fine upstanding proles who will care for senior libertarians at extremely low pay without abusing them, regardless of what happens to the education system.


www.angryflower.com
You should write a sequel.
 
2012-09-11 12:13:38 AM  

Silly Jesus: but that doesn't mean that insurance companies should be expected to be charities



So they should only cover you when you don't actually use it? The second you do and they drop you, that should be okay, because

Silly Jesus: It's a business and it can't function for anyone if you sign up after you get sick, suck out tons of money


Sounds legit, like a scam more like it

Silly Jesus: Nobody will have insurance if that's how you want it to work.


Just like nobody will have life insurance if someone dies and their decedents cash in their coverage? Life insurance should just drop you once you die, because it's a business and they need to make money.

Nevermind the fact that health insurance companies have been making money hand over fist for decades and will continue to do so even with Obamacare, unless you can post citations showing otherwise.

Because right now you're just talking bullshiat out of your ass.

"insurance should only cover you when you don't need it and drop you when you do because business, profit, free market, blah blah blah"

This must be a snarky troll
 
2012-09-11 01:08:24 AM  

MrEricSir: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry.

Um, no. It's not really insurance if it only covers healthy people. By definition, the industry is a fraud if it the "insurance" they're selling doesn't cover the sick.


really? So I should just be able to sign up for auto insurance after my accident and then claim they have to pay to fix it?
 
2012-09-11 01:13:27 AM  

pedrop357: ciberido: So ... you completely fail to grasp the concept of preventative medicine, then?

I actually do. My point is that those who want to argue for mandatory insurance, single payer, etc. always do so in an underhanded way where the only outcome worth discussin is what they want.

They talk at length and entirely about the necessity for mandatory insurance or single payer people without coverage dying because they're not covered and people bankrupted because they got sick. The proposed counter solution for those problems is catastrophe/high deductible plans.


Huh? Some of us have pointed out the critical flaw here--what's affordable once isn't necessarily affordable year after year--the situation faced by someone with a chronic illness.

Not everyone benefits from preventative care coverage. Younger, healthier people eschew coverage because they don't really have a choice about the comprehensiveness of their coverage and the inherent expenses built in.

A younger/healthier person with catastrophe only coverage is still far better off then a person without coverage because they can only choose among a group of plans that they feel are too expensive and largely useless.

Let's call this concept freedom of choice. Allow people to choose what kind of health coverage they want-catastrophe only, some preventative, comprehensive preventative, etc.


The problem here is that insurance premiums should be based on age. Trying to make them level for all employees makes insurance a bad deal for the young and healthy.
 
2012-09-11 01:27:43 AM  
Why you guys keep discussing things with the trolls instead of just debunking their deliberate psychological f*ckery is beyond me.
 
2012-09-11 01:37:49 AM  

Loren: The problem here is that insurance premiums should be based on age. Trying to make them level for all employees makes insurance a bad deal for the young and healthy.


Precisely the problem I have with it.
 
2012-09-11 01:50:08 AM  

Loren: The problem here is that insurance premiums should be based on age. Trying to make them level for all employees makes insurance a bad deal for the young and healthy.


Actually the young and healthy will eventually be old and sick. Since the young and healthy have jobs, maybe they should pay now, collect later when they are old. That's how social security works. Right now the insurance companies exist to extra the most money from the young and healthy, while foisting the young and sick, middle aged and sick on to the tax payer. Realistically we should force the young and healthy to pay for medicare coverage and leave the insurance companies to fight over the scraps that's the supplemental insurance business.

I mean none of this is complicated as long as you stop listening to what people say, especially conservatives, and just work the numbers.
 
2012-09-11 02:12:22 AM  
This is what you get when you worship "the market" above all else.
 
2012-09-11 02:59:57 AM  

Nutsac_Jim: really? So I should just be able to sign up for auto insurance after my accident and then claim they have to pay to fix it?



No, after your first accident the government reminds you that you need insurance, so you go buy it. And you're now covered.
 
2012-09-11 04:10:37 AM  

Ant:
[www.kff.org image 650x356]


I wonder how that chart would look if it was adjusted by mean income for each country.
 
2012-09-11 07:43:25 AM  

Kittypie070: Why you guys keep discussing things with the trolls instead of just debunking their deliberate psychological f*ckery is beyond me.


Well, you see, the holiday season will soon be at our throats again. I must gird myself for the inevitable discussions that will occur with my insane relatives. (In between the airing of grievances and the feats of strength)
 
2012-09-11 11:33:32 AM  

Bucky Katt: This is what you get when you worship "the market" above all else.


The market is just people working with each other voluntarily while respecting each other's life, liberty and property. Also known as "peaceful cooperation."

In contrast, you and the other Fark Socialists want a system of perpetual aggression to force other people to pay for your goods and services.

Which makes you a thief and a parasite, even though you use government goons to do your dirty work. As an added bonus, that same government also conveniently provides a PR service, by dressing up your theft and parasitism in flowery euphemisms to help ease any ethical concerns you may have about your general shiattiness.
 
2012-09-11 11:53:22 AM  

Phinn: Bucky Katt: This is what you get when you worship "the market" above all else.

The market is just people working with each other voluntarily while respecting each other's life, liberty and property. Also known as "peaceful cooperation."

In contrast, you and the other Fark Socialists want a system of perpetual aggression to force other people to pay for your goods and services.

Which makes you a thief and a parasite, even though you use government goons to do your dirty work. As an added bonus, that same government also conveniently provides a PR service, by dressing up your theft and parasitism in flowery euphemisms to help ease any ethical concerns you may have about your general shiattiness.


THIS
 
2012-09-11 12:21:38 PM  

Phinn: Bucky Katt: This is what you get when you worship "the market" above all else.

The market is just people working with each other voluntarily while respecting each other's life, liberty and property. Also known as "peaceful cooperation."

In contrast, you and the other Fark Socialists want a system of perpetual aggression to force other people to pay for your goods and services.

Which makes you a thief and a parasite, even though you use government goons to do your dirty work. As an added bonus, that same government also conveniently provides a PR service, by dressing up your theft and parasitism in flowery euphemisms to help ease any ethical concerns you may have about your general shiattiness.


THIS
 
2012-09-11 12:25:13 PM  

Phinn: The market is just people working with each other voluntarily while respecting each other's life, liberty and property. Also known as "peaceful cooperation."

In contrast, you and the other Fark Socialists want a system of perpetual aggression to force other people to pay for your goods and services.

Which makes you a thief and a parasite, even though you use government goons to do your dirty work. As an added bonus, that same government also conveniently provides a PR service, by dressing up your theft and parasitism in flowery euphemisms to help ease any ethical concerns you may have about your general shiattiness.


The right of individuals to life-saving health care and the need of a society to obviate poverty are greater than the right of an individual to disburse 100% of their earnings.

Personal responsibility and hard work are good things. Oddly, a lot of conservatives act as if they are only good when financial benefit comes of them and when no one can "cheat the system" by acting otherwise. Strange, that.
 
2012-09-11 12:29:44 PM  

Inchoate: The right of individuals to life-saving health care and the need of a society to obviate poverty are greater than the right of an individual to disburse 100% of their earnings.


You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.
 
2012-09-11 12:49:45 PM  

Silly Jesus: You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.


You have no inherent right to enjoy the benefits of civilization when you refuse to contribute to it.
 
2012-09-11 12:50:15 PM  

Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.


Based off what I heard at the RNC, Republicans believe in love. And love is all you need.
 
2012-09-11 12:51:12 PM  

Silly Jesus: Inchoate: The right of individuals to life-saving health care and the need of a society to obviate poverty are greater than the right of an individual to disburse 100% of their earnings.

You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.


Counterpoint:

"All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."
- B. "Mighty Pimp Hand of the Founders" Franklin, December 25, 1783

/Merry farking X-mas
//Take your tent, bow, jacket, purification tabs, pen-knife, flint, mess kit, canteen and cup, and GTFO.
 
2012-09-11 01:04:05 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it


Sounds like our problem is solved.
 
2012-09-11 01:13:57 PM  

Uncle Tractor: Silly Jesus: You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.

You have no inherent right to enjoy the benefits of civilization when you refuse to contribute to it.


Giving you money for your surgery is a benefit of civilization that I enjoy?
 
2012-09-11 01:16:43 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: Silly Jesus: Inchoate: The right of individuals to life-saving health care and the need of a society to obviate poverty are greater than the right of an individual to disburse 100% of their earnings.

You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.

Counterpoint:

"All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his Club towards the Support of it."
- B. "Mighty Pimp Hand of the Founders" Franklin, December 25, 1783

/Merry farking X-mas
//Take your tent, bow, jacket, purification tabs, pen-knife, flint, mess kit, canteen and cup, and GTFO.


Chipping in for roads that I have the opportunity to use, etc.? Fine.

Chipping in so that you can have surgery because you chose to smoke etc.? No thanks.
 
2012-09-11 01:16:43 PM  
demaL-demaL-yeH:Take your tent, bow, jacket, purification tabs, pen-knife, flint, mess kit, canteen and cup, and GTFO.

Make me.
 
2012-09-11 01:59:01 PM  

Uncle Tractor: You have no inherent right to enjoy the benefits of civilization when you refuse to contribute to it.


Last time I checked, government provided medical care is not the totality of 'civilization".

Opposing paying for certain specific things does not mean that a person opposes paying for all things.

Also, who defines 'civilization"? Those benefiting the most from it at the least cost, or those paying the most for it?
 
2012-09-11 02:06:02 PM  

Silly Jesus: Chipping in for roads that I have the opportunity to use, etc.? Fine.

Chipping in so that you can have surgery because you chose to smoke etc.? No thanks.


Chipping in to a health care system that every citizen gets to benefit from, you and yours included.
Chipping in to make your fellow citizens healthier and more stable, so that they can continue to operate optimally in society - be that working, raising children, caretaking, creating, or just putting some discretionary income (which they have because the surgery/etc. didn't bankrupt them) back into the economy.
Some people are net drains on the system. Oh well! That happens. Try to minimize loss/fraud and realize the focus is on the majority who genuinely need.

But it feels better to blame people and jealously guard one's filthy lucre, I guess. :/
 
2012-09-11 02:07:32 PM  

Silly Jesus: Giving you money for your surgery is a benefit of civilization that I enjoy?


Helping people get back on their feet is part of being civilized.

pedrop357: Last time I checked, government provided medical care is not the totality of 'civilization".


Nobody said it was. (it wasn't what I was getting at, anyway)

Opposing paying for certain specific things does not mean that a person opposes paying for all things.

You mean paying for things like wars on random countries?

Also, who defines 'civilization"? Those benefiting the most from it at the least cost, or those paying the most for it?

Well, compare countries where people pay taxes for the common good (northern Europe) with countries where people don't (Somalia). Tell me which you would call civilized and why.
 
2012-09-11 03:30:28 PM  

Silly Jesus: Inchoate: The right of individuals to life-saving health care and the need of a society to obviate poverty are greater than the right of an individual to disburse 100% of their earnings.

You have no inherent right to take my money from me by force and use it for your personal medical care.


Actually, imho, the state DOES have the "right"...both legally, and morally...to use our money for SOME healthcare initiatives, primarily in the realm of infectious disease. Since things like influenza have killed more Americans than redcoats, Nazis, Commies, and terrorists combined, I'm in favor of this.

Treating Hank the Hobo's TB? Yes, it's necessary.

But spending my money on Jimmy the Alcoholic's new liver? No thanks.
 
2012-09-11 03:54:39 PM  

Silly Jesus: Chipping in for roads that I have the opportunity to use, etc.? Fine.

Chipping in so that you can have surgery because you chose to smoke etc.? No thanks.


Because you're invincible and will never need surgery, amirite?
 
2012-09-11 07:32:23 PM  
Hard work. A man works hard.
Hard work will get you a big pile of wood to keep warm in winter.
Hard work will not make a million dollars selling oil.
Hard work will build a hut of mud for shelter.
Hard work will not build a hotel.
Hard work will grow a small field of grain for food.
Hard work will not grow 50,000 bushels of wheat for manufacturing bread.

Getting other fools to do your work and make you wealthy is NOT hard work.
It is something else entirely, but most will argue that.
 
2012-09-11 09:03:12 PM  

snocone: Hard work. A man works hard.
Hard work will get you a big pile of wood to keep warm in winter.
Hard work will not make a million dollars selling oil.
Hard work will build a hut of mud for shelter.
Hard work will not build a hotel.
Hard work will grow a small field of grain for food.
Hard work will not grow 50,000 bushels of wheat for manufacturing bread.

Getting other fools to do your work and make you wealthy is NOT hard work.
It is something else entirely, but most will argue that.


Personally, I find the hard work of a brain much more valuable than the hard work of a muscle --- and so does our society.
 
2012-09-11 11:04:05 PM  
Graffito 2012-09-11 07:43:25 AM

Kittypie070: Why you guys keep discussing things with the trolls instead of just debunking their deliberate psychological f*ckery is beyond me.

Well, you see, the holiday season will soon be at our throats again. I must gird myself for the inevitable discussions that will occur with my insane relatives. (In between the airing of grievances and the feats of strength)


ulp

I meant no offence. I cry your pardon.
 
2012-09-12 10:37:10 PM  

The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.


Tax payers, by wich you mean everyone who doesn't live off the grid in a log cabin.
 
2012-09-13 08:19:30 AM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Tax payers, by wich you mean everyone who doesn't live off the grid in a log cabin.


You can look up which kinds of tax dollars go to fund Obamacare if you feel like it.

/It ain't the sales tax you pay while grocery shopping at a gas station.
 
2012-09-13 09:02:42 PM  

The Muthaship: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Tax payers, by wich you mean everyone who doesn't live off the grid in a log cabin.

You can look up which kinds of tax dollars go to fund Obamacare if you feel like it.

/It ain't the sales tax you pay while grocery shopping at a gas station.


Right, so since you don't pay sales or state income tax in 49 states, you don't get police protection and can't travel off Federal highways in those states. Idiot. Money is fungible and all taxes are part of the slush fund that undergirds society.

/Did I mention you're an idiot?
 
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