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(The Atlantic)   Pre-existing conditions are hard for the GOP. They're the center of the Venn Diagram of "People Ayn Rand Said To Ignore" and "People Jesus Said To Help"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 636
    More: Interesting, venn diagrams, GOP, pre-existing condition, Yuval Levin  
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16323 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Sep 2012 at 12:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-10 01:00:19 PM  

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Oh f*ck it. This could have been a decent thread on a decent article. Instead it got trolled to sh*t and back right out of the gate. F*ck this thread. F*ck this place. F*ck all you. F*ck yo' couch and f*ck yo mamas.


Otherwise OK?
 
2012-09-10 01:00:21 PM  

pedrop357: KIA: The full sequence is not yet clear. Allow me to be explicit:

1) Feds mandate insurance for all without limitation or cost effectiveness.

2) Insurance companies strive to comply by jacking up rates for paying folks who rapidly look for other options.

3) Finding none, people give up and join the free queue.

4) Insurance companies go broke, cry to the Feds.

5) Feds take over insurers, creating government-run healthcare as planned.

Pretty much. Obamacare seems to be designed to crash the health insurance industry and leave single payer as the "best" alternative. Instead of fixing the problems of the current system, single payer will only have to fix the problems of the destroyed system in the future.


By all means, please make suggestions for how to fix the current health care and insurance systems.
 
2012-09-10 01:00:38 PM  

dumbobruni: because I have a birth defect, do I need to have the same insurance company for life? given that individual states are individual insurance markets, does that mean I can never move?


Maybe you would. I fail to see why a risk pool should be obligated to accept you (or me or anyone else) and the possibility that you will need a payout immediately despite not having contributed to the pool.

As for individual states being separate markets, that's another wonderful federal government mandate.

It might be worth looking at why medical care is so expensive as to virtually require insurance for even routine care.
 
2012-09-10 01:00:50 PM  

Saiga410: Aarontology: If you have a traditional health insurance policy, you are paying for other people, and they are paying for you.

I disagree. The insurance is a service from a company. You buy this service and how the company handles the money is not relevant.


Um, their only "service" is funneling money from one person to another. It's a money pool. There is no actual "service" being provided beyond managing that pool. You aren't *buying* anything. You're hedging on a gamble.

Insurance is a hedge, nothing more. Pay some money into a pool as a way to buy-in so that if you get sick down the road, you can draw more money out of that pool than you would have had otherwise. There is literally nothing else to it.
 
2012-09-10 01:01:05 PM  
Since when is it supposed to be a good thing to have people turning their religious obligations into governmental fiats?

Individuals choosing to take care of the needy and politicians forcing everyone to take care of the needy are two different things.
 
2012-09-10 01:01:16 PM  

Mrbogey: Karac: In before people who say:
Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.

bother to say how those peoples' claims are wrong.
Yay, still early.

Since this is on the internet, everyone here has the ability to find out the truth. That they ha ent is more a testament to self-reinforced ignorance.

But I'll play along as if you haven't been told this before. Insurance by definition fan not cover a pre-existing condition. You can't insure against something that has already happened happening. The issue is really one of care... To which the liberal position seems to rely on society covering it.. As if communal morality trumps private morality.

Tell that to Jesus when he asks what you did to help the least among us.

"Well I belonged to a group that advocated something be done. So were cool, right bro?"


What "private morality" looks like:

blogs.esanjoaquin.com

Okay, so Yolanda needs 800k just for the surgery and that doesn't count the medication she'll need to take forever. If each person who attends the benefit splurges on the two-meat combo, her friends will only need to sell 47,059 dinners to cover the cost of the surgery. (Not counting food costs. Here's hoping the venue is free.)

Have no fear, Yolanda. Private morality is totally going to work out for you.
 
2012-09-10 01:01:22 PM  

MrEricSir: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry.

Um, no. It's not really insurance if it only covers healthy people. By definition, the industry is a fraud if it the "insurance" they're selling doesn't cover the sick.


I'd like to see you crash your car until it is totaled, then try to take an insurance policy out on it.
 
2012-09-10 01:01:22 PM  

pedrop357: Don't like it? Find another way to fund your medical care, OR try to fix the system so that insurance isn't needed for nearly everything.


We are. One step at a time.

/UHC
 
2012-09-10 01:01:30 PM  

FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

[kburchard.files.wordpress.com image 400x400]


Dear Left wing:

The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while booing the inclusion of God in the Democratic Party platform, it will time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.

/also time to ditch all your worldly possessions and follow Jesus...assuming you think that's what that passage in the Bible was actually trying say
 
2012-09-10 01:01:33 PM  

Mighty Taternuts: Single payer. It still destroys the industry but it would cost us less and be less complicated.


Good, destroy the industry, health care should not be about obscene profits.
 
2012-09-10 01:01:59 PM  

The Muthaship: qorkfiend: You didn't know that the entire point of the individual mandate was to prevent precisely the sort of jump-on, jump-off behavior you were describing?

I wasn't in favor of violating the Constitution, and forcing people to act in a way that for many is against their own interests on order to finance this mess. Didn't seem to bother arch "conservative" Roberts though.


Well then, good news! It doesn't violate the Constitution.

For whom would purchasing insurance be against their financial interests?
 
2012-09-10 01:02:01 PM  

pedrop357: Exactly what other problems is socialism the best solution to ?


Education.
Criminal justice.
Transportation.
Communication.
Power (electricity).
Water.
Military.
Public health in general.
...and more, I'm sure.

Yes, there is room for private actors in all the above.

How you propose we pay for such things?

Taxes. Civilisation isn't free.
 
2012-09-10 01:02:14 PM  
I have a pre-existing condition for which I have been denied individual-plan health care multiple times, so I'm getting a kick...
 
2012-09-10 01:02:20 PM  

doubled99: Is this the thread where psuedo intellectuals make attempts at snarky comments about an author they aren't able to understand?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the theory of relativity is stupid, too.


I'm sure you're well versed with the works of Bakunin and Marx & Engels as well.
 
2012-09-10 01:02:38 PM  

JesseL: Since when is it supposed to be a good thing to have people turning their religious obligations into governmental fiats?

Individuals choosing to take care of the needy and politicians forcing everyone to take care of the needy are two different things.


Yes, because the latter actually solves the problem in a real and sustainable way.

I am eternally bewildered by this right-wing attitude that real solutions must always take a backseat to letting someone feel good about how rich they are.
 
2012-09-10 01:02:46 PM  

pushpinder: Possibly one of the best headlines I've seen on here in a while. I actually laughed out loud at this one at work. It's definitely so true.

Insurance is a low profit margin business? Where are you getting your facts from son? Here is Keiser alone, 663 million in profits. Yeah, that sounds totally crappy to me.



You tossed out dollar amounts without actually mentioning the margin. If insurance is a one trillion dollar market, then 663 million is a slim margin.
 
2012-09-10 01:02:58 PM  

The Muthaship: Philip Francis Queeg: Just say that you want those who are sick and not wealthy to die painful deaths without treatment so that you can save a few bucks, and be done with it.

Subtle.

I pay for the health insurance for 21 families. How many are you covering?


Of course you are.

Appeal to authority. Ten yard penalty.
 
2012-09-10 01:03:06 PM  
A Dark Evil Omen SmartestFunniest 2012-09-10 12:59:06 PM


doubled99: Is this the thread where psuedo intellectuals make attempts at snarky comments about an author they aren't able to understand?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the theory of relativity is stupid, too.

Did... Did you just compare Rand and Einstein?




They were married, right?
 
2012-09-10 01:03:08 PM  

The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.


I'm OK with this. Insurance companies operate just like casinos: the house always wins and the suckers almost always lose. That's not a good health care policy.

I don't like the fact that Obamacare leaves private insurers in the driver's seat. They'll find ways to keep health insurance unattainable for many. It's not going to be a more efficient marketplace. It will become more complex, fraught with red tape, and full of gotchas. Not to mention even more expensive. More money will be spent on things other than health care.

Single payer. Tax everyone because we're all in this life together.
 
2012-09-10 01:03:17 PM  

FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.


Where in the gospels does Jesus advocate the nationalization of industry or outlawing the ownership of capital goods?
 
2012-09-10 01:03:25 PM  
Christ's commandments regarding social justice were aimed at the individual Christian not the State. Just sayin'...
 
2012-09-10 01:03:40 PM  

The Muthaship: qorkfiend: You didn't know that the entire point of the individual mandate was to prevent precisely the sort of jump-on, jump-off behavior you were describing?

I wasn't in favor of violating the Constitution, and forcing people to act in a way that for many is against their own interests on order to finance this mess. Didn't seem to bother arch "conservative" Roberts though.


Why does the shared responsibility payment violate the Constitution?
 
2012-09-10 01:03:49 PM  

hdhale: FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

[kburchard.files.wordpress.com image 400x400]

Dear Left wing:

The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while booing the inclusion of God in the Democratic Party platform, it will time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.

/also time to ditch all your worldly possessions and follow Jesus...assuming you think that's what that passage in the Bible was actually trying say


Unlike the right wing, the left wing doesn't loudly proclaim, at every opportunity, that they are pious followers of Jesus and that their philosophies of law and government are based directly on the inerrant word of the Bible.
 
2012-09-10 01:04:16 PM  

Koalacaust: FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

Where in the gospels does Jesus advocate the nationalization of industry or outlawing the ownership of capital goods?


Neither of those things are necessary or even common components of socialist theory. Stop reading propaganda.
 
2012-09-10 01:04:30 PM  

Serious Black: The Muthaship: qorkfiend: You didn't know that the entire point of the individual mandate was to prevent precisely the sort of jump-on, jump-off behavior you were describing?

I wasn't in favor of violating the Constitution, and forcing people to act in a way that for many is against their own interests on order to finance this mess. Didn't seem to bother arch "conservative" Roberts though.

Why does the shared responsibility payment violate the Constitution?


Because sohshulizm? Baby Jesus? Aliens?

One of those.
 
2012-09-10 01:04:34 PM  

qorkfiend: For whom would purchasing insurance be against their financial interests?


18-29 year olds whose "tax" will exceed their average cost for medical care if they paid out of pocket.

/and it is unconstitutional
//that was a travesty of ends justify the means thinking
 
2012-09-10 01:04:56 PM  

klawade: Christ's commandments regarding social justice were aimed at the individual Christian not the State. Just sayin'...


Then individual Christians shouldn't have any problems with the State doing some of the things they should be doing.
 
2012-09-10 01:05:01 PM  

klawade: Christ's commandments regarding social justice were aimed at the individual Christian not the State. Just sayin'...


I am eternally bewildered by this right-wing attitude that real solutions must always take a backseat to letting someone feel good about how rich they are.
 
2012-09-10 01:05:36 PM  

The Muthaship: qorkfiend: For whom would purchasing insurance be against their financial interests?

18-29 year olds whose "tax" will exceed their average cost for medical care if they paid out of pocket.

/and it is unconstitutional
//that was a travesty of ends justify the means thinking


Do you have any concept of what "insurance" is? Those young people are going to use health care at some point in their lives.
 
2012-09-10 01:05:54 PM  

The Muthaship: qorkfiend: For whom would purchasing insurance be against their financial interests?

18-29 year olds whose "tax" will exceed their average cost for medical care if they paid out of pocket.

/and it is unconstitutional
//that was a travesty of ends justify the means thinking


So go get in a car accident and get your money's worth.
 
2012-09-10 01:06:13 PM  

wmoonfox: Appeal to authority. Ten yard penalty.


Why didn't he get flagged for putting words in my mouth?
 
2012-09-10 01:06:18 PM  

pedrop357: dumbobruni: because I have a birth defect, do I need to have the same insurance company for life? given that individual states are individual insurance markets, does that mean I can never move?

Maybe you would. I fail to see why a risk pool should be obligated to accept you (or me or anyone else) and the possibility that you will need a payout immediately despite not having contributed to the pool.

As for individual states being separate markets, that's another wonderful federal government mandate.

It might be worth looking at why medical care is so expensive as to virtually require insurance for even routine care.


In what world is saying "we'll let insurance companies violate anti-trust laws if the states adequately regulate them" a federal mandate to have 50 different health insurance markets?
 
2012-09-10 01:06:24 PM  

A Dark Evil Omen: JesseL: Since when is it supposed to be a good thing to have people turning their religious obligations into governmental fiats?

Individuals choosing to take care of the needy and politicians forcing everyone to take care of the needy are two different things.

Yes, because the latter actually solves the problem in a real and sustainable way.

I am eternally bewildered by this right-wing attitude that real solutions must always take a backseat to letting someone feel good about how rich they are.


Separate issue. I was addressing subby's apparent insinuation that the GOP's failure to implement a theocracy is hypocritical.
 
2012-09-10 01:06:31 PM  

hdhale: FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

[kburchard.files.wordpress.com image 400x400]

Dear Left wing:

The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while booing the inclusion of God in the Democratic Party platform, it will time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.

/also time to ditch all your worldly possessions and follow Jesus...assuming you think that's what that passage in the Bible was actually trying say


Dear Mr. Right Winger:

The left can lecture to what Jesus taught and said because it's a matter of record. It's written down in a book called the Bible. You may have heard of it, not sure? The fact that the right invokes Jesus at nearly every turn yet fails to practice the actual teachings of this messiah is just a shinning example of hypocrisy. I know you probably don't like being called out on it and that it probably makes you angry. In short, we on the left, apologize for pointing out your hypocrisy.

Best regards,

A friendly socialist.
 
2012-09-10 01:07:07 PM  
I showed my wife my boner last night and she told me there was nothing she could do about a pre-existing condition.
 
2012-09-10 01:07:09 PM  

gimmegimme: Those young people are going to use health care at some point in their lives.


And they would should be within their rights, and pragmatically wise to wait until it makes financial sense for them.
 
2012-09-10 01:07:32 PM  

pedrop357: Socialism is the BEST solution to some problems. Healthcare is one of those problems.

Exactly what other problems is socialism the best solution to ?
How you propose we pay for such things?


topforeignstocks.com
 
2012-09-10 01:07:36 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Single payer. Tax everyone because we're all in this life together.

 
2012-09-10 01:07:41 PM  

Lost Thought 00: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.

You have a better solution?


Well, one better solution would be the teachings of Jesus: private charity. He was kind of against theft, which is what Obamacare is.

The best solution would be to get rid of insurance entirely.
 
2012-09-10 01:07:54 PM  

Bullseyed: MrEricSir: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry.

Um, no. It's not really insurance if it only covers healthy people. By definition, the industry is a fraud if it the "insurance" they're selling doesn't cover the sick.

I'd like to see you crash your car until it is totaled, then try to take an insurance policy out on it.


1) Auto insurance is not analogous to health insurance

2) Cars aren't people.

3) you're kinda a moran for even using this analogy
 
2012-09-10 01:08:17 PM  

hdhale: The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while booing the inclusion of God in the Democratic Party platform, it will time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.


I'm not a Democrat and I don't live in the US. If I was, my reply would have been something like this:

Jesus is your master and there's nothing wrong in pointing out that you're not following his commands while simultaneously not wanting him in our playbook.

...But then I'm neither a Democrat nor in the US so I won't say anything at all.
 
2012-09-10 01:08:58 PM  

doubled99: A Dark Evil Omen SmartestFunniest 2012-09-10 12:59:06 PM


doubled99: Is this the thread where psuedo intellectuals make attempts at snarky comments about an author they aren't able to understand?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the theory of relativity is stupid, too.

Did... Did you just compare Rand and Einstein?

They were married, right?


Nononono.

Einstien was married to that Jewish chick - Helen Keller
 
2012-09-10 01:09:02 PM  

Bullseyed: He was kind of against theft, which is what Obamacare is.


You're serious, aren't you? I bet you think taxes are theft, as well.
 
2012-09-10 01:09:07 PM  

The Muthaship: /and it is unconstitutional


bigbaddie.com
 
2012-09-10 01:09:08 PM  

Bullseyed: Well, one better solution would be the teachings of Jesus: private charity.


One in five children in the U.S. live in poverty. Private charity ain't cutting it. Never will.
 
2012-09-10 01:09:09 PM  

The Muthaship: gimmegimme: Those young people are going to use health care at some point in their lives.

And they would should be within their rights, and pragmatically wise to wait until it makes financial sense for them.


So what you're saying is that you advocate a policy of "Fark you, I got mine?" Hmmm....I wonder which party is using that as their slogan.
 
2012-09-10 01:09:33 PM  

hdhale: FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

[kburchard.files.wordpress.com image 400x400]

Dear Left wing:

The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while booing the inclusion of God in the Democratic Party platform, it will time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.

/also time to ditch all your worldly possessions and follow Jesus...assuming you think that's what that passage in the Bible was actually trying say


Dear Right Wing:

The day you can lecture about what Jesus said while allowing charlatans spewing the Prosperity Gospel to prosper (without saying a word against them), it will be time to be quiet and think about where you went wrong in life.

/Because the bible says, both literally AND figuratively, that it doesn't work that way.
//It also says that capitalism is, to some extent, incompatible with Christianity. "you cannot serve both God and Mammon."
///Mammon being THE GOD OF MONEY.
 
2012-09-10 01:09:51 PM  

dumbobruni: /its hard to pick yourself up by your bootstraps, especially when you have a 50% chance of being confined to a wheelchair for your entire life.


At least in a wheelchair you won't wear those bootstraps out quite so fast.
 
2012-09-10 01:09:57 PM  

Koalacaust: FarkedOver: Dear right wing:

Let this sink in.

Where in the gospels does Jesus advocate the nationalization of industry or outlawing the ownership of capital goods?


Nationalization does not equal socialism. Workers controlling the means of production ahhh now that is socialism.

Considering there was no such thing as mass production and essentially there was no capital during the time of Jesus I'd say he was a primitive communist (kind of like the Native Americans).
 
2012-09-10 01:09:58 PM  

pedrop357: Philip Francis Queeg: Once again you prove that Profit is the only value you hold dear. You'd happily watch a relative go untreated rather than see insurance company shareholders receive a diminished rate of return on their investment.

Insurance is a low profit margin business to begin with. They have an obligation to protect the risk pool and their shareholders. They have natural and regulatory limits on the premiums they can charge, thus they must have some limits on how they pay-they achieve this by trying to limit payouts.

Don't like it? Find another way to fund your medical care, OR try to fix the system so that insurance isn't needed for nearly everything.


Corporations exist to serve people, not the other way around.
 
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