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(The Atlantic)   Pre-existing conditions are hard for the GOP. They're the center of the Venn Diagram of "People Ayn Rand Said To Ignore" and "People Jesus Said To Help"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 636
    More: Interesting, venn diagrams, GOP, pre-existing condition, Yuval Levin  
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16323 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Sep 2012 at 12:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-10 12:47:24 PM
The entire healthcare industry should be run by the government, basically. The federal government should pay for health care, they should institute price-controls, they should pay to train physicians, and they should fund all research.

It's the only way it can work. Keeping people healthy should not be left to the whims of the marketplace. It's too important and fundamental.

Socialism is the BEST solution to some problems. Healthcare is one of those problems.
 
2012-09-10 12:47:54 PM

Zeppelininthesky: Jesus would be too liberal for the GOP

16 And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:16-24).


Make no mistake about it, Jesus would be deemed a *communist* if any of his followers would open up the damned book they profess to live their life by.
 
2012-09-10 12:48:02 PM
Mitt should have ditched the teabaggers as soon as he vanquished the other clown show members.


I mean, when you have to say moronic, easily disprovable shiat like: "Said a statement subsequently released by his campaign: "In a competitive environment, the marketplace will make available plans that include coverage for what there is demand for. He was not proposing a federal mandate to require insurance plans to offer those particular features." ...just to placate them, they're doing nothing but hurting you.
 
2012-09-10 12:49:07 PM

Karac: In before people who say:
Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.

bother to say how those peoples' claims are wrong.
Yay, still early.


Since this is on the internet, everyone here has the ability to find out the truth. That they ha ent is more a testament to self-reinforced ignorance.

But I'll play along as if you haven't been told this before. Insurance by definition fan not cover a pre-existing condition. You can't insure against something that has already happened happening. The issue is really one of care... To which the liberal position seems to rely on society covering it.. As if communal morality trumps private morality.

Tell that to Jesus when he asks what you did to help the least among us.

"Well I belonged to a group that advocated something be done. So were cool, right bro?"
 
2012-09-10 12:49:10 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Once again you prove that Profit is the only value you hold dear. You'd happily watch a relative go untreated rather than see insurance company shareholders receive a diminished rate of return on their investment.


Insurance is a low profit margin business to begin with. They have an obligation to protect the risk pool and their shareholders. They have natural and regulatory limits on the premiums they can charge, thus they must have some limits on how they pay-they achieve this by trying to limit payouts.

Don't like it? Find another way to fund your medical care, OR try to fix the system so that insurance isn't needed for nearly everything.
 
2012-09-10 12:49:55 PM

thurstonxhowell: Way to be have a birth defect, stupid. That dumb decision means the insurance company should be able to tell you to fark off.


I mentioned people who choose not to have coverage until they get sick, NOT people who are born that way.
 
2012-09-10 12:50:23 PM

pedrop357: imontheinternet: Jesus said to help everybody and not worry about yourself, while Ayn Rand said get yours and screw everybody else. They're diametrically opposed to each other. She's like Jesus's evil twin. Of course, there's actual proof that Ayn Rand existed, so she's got that going for her.

I don't recall hearing the part of Jesus fairy tale where he advocated that people be forced to help others under penalty of law.


Yeah, we found out that christians aren't charitable enough to provide healthcare on a national level ages ago. That's why we came up with other plans.
 
2012-09-10 12:50:25 PM

Free Radical: Is it constitutional to force insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions?
Somehow I see this going to the SC where it will rule in favor of the insurance companies.


Of course. Think of those unfortunate shareholders who would have to buy a new BMW every six months, instead of every three.
And it will reduce the cash they have to buy politicians, too.
Poor little guys. Have some feelings for the suited ones.  Their lives are **so** hard. Really.
 
2012-09-10 12:51:09 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Debeo Summa Credo: The Muthaship: coeyagi: Definition? What definition? Is this definition found in The Bible or other GOP publications? WHAR definition WHAR?

Do you guys really not know how insurance works? Is that even possible?

In their world, insurance companies should just give all their premiums and capital away. Anything less is unethical.

Charge more for higher risk customers? Earn any profit on capital? Outrage!!!

Once again you prove that Profit is the only value you hold dear. You'd happily watch a relative go untreated rather than see insurance company shareholders receive a diminished rate of return on their investment.


Why haven't you, or some liberal millionaire started an insurance company that paid out all claims without question and took on all customers without regard for preexisting conditions?

Warren buffets got a lot of money, has plenty of cash, and is very familiar with insurance. All he'd have to do is provide seed capital for this not for profit insurance company, and the issue of preexisting conditions would be gone forever!

Oh wait they'd go out of business due to adverse selection. Just like any insurer who doesn't price based on risk.
 
2012-09-10 12:51:14 PM
When most of us think of pre existing condition, we picture someone who has had cancer or some serious illness.
If in the past ten years you went to an emergency room for anything, were prescribed any medication by a doctor, drink more than one glass of wine a week, you have a pre existing condition and will not get health insurance, without group coverage.
So, yeah, it's not those really sick people, it's you as well.
Was denied health insurance due to the fact that last year, I went to an emergency room on a Sunday for pink eye, and was prescribed something to lower my cholesterol (which wasn't that bad) about 5 years ago.
No shiat.
 
2012-09-10 12:51:24 PM

Mr. Right: Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.

That's how liberals, in their own mind, win the debate. It's hard to lose an argument when you get to write your opponent's lines a well as your own.


What a republican winning a debate with a democrat looks like:
i232.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-10 12:51:30 PM

realmolo: The entire healthcare industry should be run by the government, basically. The federal government should pay for health care, they should institute price-controls, they should pay to train physicians, and they should fund all research.

It's the only way it can work. Keeping people healthy should not be left to the whims of the marketplace. It's too important and fundamental.

Socialism is the BEST solution to some problems. Healthcare is one of those problems.


Exactly what other problems is socialism the best solution to ?
How you propose we pay for such things?
 
KIA
2012-09-10 12:51:50 PM

The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.


The full sequence is not yet clear. Allow me to be explicit:

1) Feds mandate insurance for all without limitation or cost effectiveness.

2) Insurance companies strive to comply by jacking up rates for paying folks who rapidly look for other options.

3) Finding none, people give up and join the free queue.

4) Insurance companies go broke, cry to the Feds.

5) Feds take over insurers, creating government-run healthcare as planned.
 
2012-09-10 12:52:08 PM

Aarontology: If you have a traditional health insurance policy, you are paying for other people, and they are paying for you.


I disagree. The insurance is a service from a company. You buy this service and how the company handles the money is not relevant.
 
2012-09-10 12:52:27 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: Mr. Right: Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.

That's how liberals, in their own mind, win the debate. It's hard to lose an argument when you get to write your opponent's lines a well as your own.

What that might look like:

[a.abcnews.com image 640x360]


Ah, senility.
 
2012-09-10 12:52:55 PM

The Muthaship: coeyagi: Definition? What definition? Is this definition found in The Bible or other GOP publications? WHAR definition WHAR?

Do you guys really not know how insurance works? Is that even possible?


Of course we know how insurance works.

Step 1: Pay insurance company for health insurance.
Step 2: Ask insurance company to pay for health care.
Step 3: Insurance company says no. PROFIT!
 
2012-09-10 12:53:01 PM
Well, Ayn Rand did become a "looter" at the end...
 
2012-09-10 12:53:06 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Why haven't you, or some liberal millionaire started an insurance company that paid out all claims without question and took on all customers without regard for preexisting conditions?


Because no one is saying that that's what they want.

Well, that was an easy question. Got any more head scratchers?
 
2012-09-10 12:53:19 PM

KIA: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.

The full sequence is not yet clear. Allow me to be explicit:

1) Feds mandate insurance for all without limitation or cost effectiveness.

2) Insurance companies strive to comply by jacking up rates for paying folks who rapidly look for other options.

3) Finding none, people give up and join the free queue.

4) Insurance companies go broke, cry to the Feds.

5) Feds take over insurers, creating government-run healthcare as planned.


There are a few issues with this one here. I'll give you some time to self-correct.
 
2012-09-10 12:53:19 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: I had to pay $1,700 for 1 month of coverage under COBRA when I switched jobs because the contract I was supposed to work on got pushed back after I had left my previous company.


Maybe relying on employer-provided when you do contract labor is not a good plan? Not that that necessarily changes your central point about insurance adjusters being dicks, but in general that'd be a good thing to look into changing. With any insurance pool the more assurance of continuity you've got the better it'll tend to be from your perspective.
 
2012-09-10 12:53:27 PM

pedrop357: thurstonxhowell: Way to be have a birth defect, stupid. That dumb decision means the insurance company should be able to tell you to fark off.

I mentioned people who choose not to have coverage until they get sick, NOT people who are born that way.


Yet people who are born sick are often deemed by insurance companies to have a pre-existing condition that they don't have to cover. Here's an example.
 
2012-09-10 12:53:32 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Oh wait they'd go out of business due to adverse selection. Just like any insurer who doesn't price based on risk.


So you are saying that the free market business model doesn't really work for healthcare. Hmmmm. How interesting.
 
2012-09-10 12:54:22 PM
I think it is vital this discussion is continued under the assumption that health insurance works the same way - economically, socially, and morally - as car insurance.
 
2012-09-10 12:54:50 PM

pedrop357: imontheinternet: Jesus said to help everybody and not worry about yourself, while Ayn Rand said get yours and screw everybody else. They're diametrically opposed to each other. She's like Jesus's evil twin. Of course, there's actual proof that Ayn Rand existed, so she's got that going for her.

I don't recall hearing the part of Jesus fairy tale where he advocated that people be forced to help others under penalty of law.


You mean other than the laws he claimed to not be doing away with, like the one that mandates giving to charity, or the ones he actually said, like giving a beggar the shirt off your back (no really, that's where the expression comes from) when he asks for your jacket?

What about the Good Samaritan story, which ends with Jesus commanding the dude to "do likewise" and help people you don't know, or the OT verses it's based on?

In short, I hope you're trolling, because if not, you're terminally dumb.

// also, if nothing Jesus said is supposed to become law, why are abortion, gayness, and separation of church and state "controversial"?
 
2012-09-10 12:54:52 PM

NeverDrunk23: main paged.


Ah I was wondering who all these fresh new shiatposting faces were, that explains it.
 
2012-09-10 12:54:55 PM
i560.photobucket.com
 
2012-09-10 12:55:11 PM

Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.


Do you include the GOP's nominee?

What Romney proposes is a bit more complicated. To quote the relevant statements:

The candidate said one goal of his health care plan "is to make sure that those with preexisting conditions can get coverage."

Said a statement subsequently released by his campaign: "In a competitive environment, the marketplace will make available plans that include coverage for what there is demand for. He was not proposing a federal mandate to require insurance plans to offer those particular features."

Finally, a second clarification put it this way: "Gov. Romney will ensure that discrimination against individuals with pre-existing conditions who maintain continuous coverage is prohibited."
 
2012-09-10 12:55:28 PM

Mrbogey: The issue is really one of care... To which the liberal position seems to rely on society covering it.. As if communal morality trumps private morality.


Those people should either die faster or pray harder.
 
2012-09-10 12:55:35 PM

The Muthaship: coeyagi: Definition? What definition? Is this definition found in The Bible or other GOP publications? WHAR definition WHAR?

Do you guys really not know how insurance works? Is that even possible?


They know what they have been told to believe. That the CEO of health insurance companies are actually harvesting human organs to keep themselves alive long enough that they can take over the planet.
 
2012-09-10 12:55:51 PM

Jake Havechek: Well, Ayn Rand did become a "looter" at the end...


Collecting social security and Medicare benefits makes on more of a MOOCHER in my mind, but why quibble over details?
 
2012-09-10 12:55:51 PM

KIA: The full sequence is not yet clear. Allow me to be explicit:

1) Feds mandate insurance for all without limitation or cost effectiveness.

2) Insurance companies strive to comply by jacking up rates for paying folks who rapidly look for other options.

3) Finding none, people give up and join the free queue.

4) Insurance companies go broke, cry to the Feds.

5) Feds take over insurers, creating government-run healthcare as planned.


Pretty much. Obamacare seems to be designed to crash the health insurance industry and leave single payer as the "best" alternative. Instead of fixing the problems of the current system, single payer will only have to fix the problems of the destroyed system in the future.
 
2012-09-10 12:56:00 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: Mr. Right: Mrbogey: In before people who don't know what Republicans actually believe claim to know what they believe...

Damn too late.

That's how liberals, in their own mind, win the debate. It's hard to lose an argument when you get to write your opponent's lines a well as your own.

What that might look like:

[a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

 

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-09-10 12:56:20 PM

pedrop357: thurstonxhowell: Way to be have a birth defect, stupid. That dumb decision means the insurance company should be able to tell you to fark off.

I mentioned people who choose not to have coverage until they get sick, NOT people who are born that way.


what about people with birth defects who then lose jobs and their benefits? the birth defect is now a pre-existing condition.

because I have a birth defect, do I need to have the same insurance company for life? given that individual states are individual insurance markets, does that mean I can never move?
 
2012-09-10 12:56:34 PM

pedrop357: Exactly what other problems is socialism the best solution to ?


Even by most heterodox capitalist theory, capitalist markets do not work for wholly inelastic markets like health care. Of course, I could go deeper in all the ways that capitalism fails on all levels but you wouldn't read it.

How you propose we pay for such things?

For a nationalized health system? Taxes, same as every other developed country, same as how the current national health systems in the US are already funded. And before you start talking stupid crap about the debt, remember, the national debt is a product of military expansion in the 80s. Medicare did not break the bank and a real single-payer or socialized system would be cheaper by any possible metric.
 
2012-09-10 12:56:58 PM

Serious Black: imontheinternet: Jesus said to help everybody and not worry about yourself, while Ayn Rand said get yours and screw everybody else. They're diametrically opposed to each other. She's like Jesus's evil twin. Of course, there's actual proof that Ayn Rand existed, so she's got that going for her.

There's also actual proof that Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, existed. And do you know what he said about taking care of other people?

"How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it."

That's the very first farking sentence to The Theory of Moral Sentiments.


I'm reminded of Dr. Gatling and his gun that would end all wars.

When you start with the assumption that there is some sort of limit to the human capacity for selfishness and cruelty, every idea that comes after is going to have an inherent flaw.
 
2012-09-10 12:57:12 PM

I alone am best: The Muthaship: coeyagi: Definition? What definition? Is this definition found in The Bible or other GOP publications? WHAR definition WHAR?

Do you guys really not know how insurance works? Is that even possible?

They know what they have been told to believe. That the CEO of health insurance companies are actually harvesting human organs to keep themselves alive long enough that they can take over the planet.


Well, that would go with our well-vetted narrative that "You Didn't Built That", you just stole it off of some dead people.
 
2012-09-10 12:57:39 PM
Is this the thread where psuedo intellectuals make attempts at snarky comments about an author they aren't able to understand?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the theory of relativity is stupid, too.
 
2012-09-10 12:57:40 PM

Jim_Callahan: DoBeDoBeDo: I had to pay $1,700 for 1 month of coverage under COBRA when I switched jobs because the contract I was supposed to work on got pushed back after I had left my previous company.

Maybe relying on employer-provided when you do contract labor is not a good plan? Not that that necessarily changes your central point about insurance adjusters being dicks, but in general that'd be a good thing to look into changing. With any insurance pool the more assurance of continuity you've got the better it'll tend to be from your perspective.


I don't work on a contract basis, I'm a full time employee. But since they are GSA schedule I couldn't come on until x days prior to the start up of the contract that they won or some bullshiat. Once this contract is up I'll move on to other things here.
 
2012-09-10 12:57:46 PM
If you have a pre-existing condition then it isn't insurance, it is cost transfer.

The number one thing that would lower healthcare costs is to change the mandate in the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act to alleviating pain as opposed to stabilizing the patient. Basically the only obligation the emergency rooms should have to the bums and illegals that come in is to keep them sedated until they die. Yes this would encourage drug seekers to hit up the emergency rooms but the problem would be self correcting since the drug seekers would eventually die of something due to their lifestyle without emergency care.

That is both the most humane and most economical solution.
 
2012-09-10 12:57:56 PM

The Muthaship: qorkfiend: So, you're in favor of the individual mandate?

Explain how you got that.


You didn't know that the entire point of the individual mandate was to prevent precisely the sort of jump-on, jump-off behavior you were describing?
 
2012-09-10 12:57:58 PM

Lost Thought 00: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry. Just say you want the government (by which you mean tax payers) to pay the bill for your health care, and be done with it.

You have a better solution?


Practically every other 1st world nation have a better solution.
 
2012-09-10 12:58:29 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Even by the most heterodox capitalist theory


FTFM. And I guess that isn't true, since ignorant "libertarian" nonsense, I suppose, counts as capitalist theory.
 
2012-09-10 12:58:31 PM

Lord Dimwit: Serious Black: Oh please, subby. Your fake Jesus may have taken care of the sick and the downtrodden, but Supply-Side Jeezus would look at those assholes and proclaim:

[toppun.com image 403x254]

Why is he holding a caduceus and not a rod of Asclepius?


Because a caduceus is a fitting symbol of the for-profit health care insurance industry.

"In Roman iconography it was often depicted being carried in the left hand of Mercury, the messenger of the gods, guide of the dead and protector of merchants, shepherds, gamblers, liars, and thieves... By extension of its association with Mercury and Hermes, the caduceus is also a recognized symbol of commerce and negotiation."
 
2012-09-10 12:58:33 PM

MrEricSir: The Muthaship: If you require private insurance companies to accept everyone regardless of their health at the time of enrollment, you have by definition destroyed the industry.

Um, no. It's not really insurance if it only covers healthy people. By definition, the industry is a fraud if it the "insurance" they're selling doesn't cover the sick.


Your premise is wrong. Insurance companies today will cover the sickest of the sick. The problem is that the premiums would so be exorbitant that it's basically the equivalent of paying out of pocket.

The real issue is how to provide affordable health care to people with pre-existing conditions. The Democrats have put forth that everyone should be mandated to purchase insurance to socialize the costs. I haven't heard a workable plan from the Republicans.
 
2012-09-10 12:59:06 PM

doubled99: Is this the thread where psuedo intellectuals make attempts at snarky comments about an author they aren't able to understand?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think the theory of relativity is stupid, too.


Did... Did you just compare Rand and Einstein?
 
2012-09-10 12:59:10 PM
Possibly one of the best headlines I've seen on here in a while. I actually laughed out loud at this one at work. It's definitely so true.

Insurance is a low profit margin business? Where are you getting your facts from son? Here is Keiser alone, 663 million in profits. Yeah, that sounds totally crappy to me.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2011/08/05/kaiser-perman e ntes-q2-profits-soar-64.html?page=all

Sutter Health had over 800 million in profits in one quarter alone

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2011/03/25/sutter-health s -2010-profits-surge-30.html?page=all

Cleveland Clinic, 300 million in net operating income for 2011, http://my.clevelandclinic.org/media_relations/library/2012/2012-03-08- cleveland-clinic-in-strong-financial-health.aspx

Christ, if that's low margin, sign me up to provide health care. I would be willing to bet others are reporting similar outcomes across the country.

Or are you talking about the brokers who "run" the plans and add extra cost for not a lot of extra service? I'll give you that, those companies don't make a lot of profit margin. And they get the added benefit of breaking the bad news to you about the rise of insurance premiums every year.
 
2012-09-10 12:59:11 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: The GOP follows the teachings of Jesus?


Bill Maher had a Catholic + Republican on last Friday (Christine O'Donnell). She said Jesus wouldn't be a Republican, but she felt that trickle down economics was more important.

I also wonder if every single Republican is aware why they are repeating "this is a single issue election and that issue is Jobs." The reason if you don't know is when you poll people and independents on who would do better with different social issues, 'Jobs - Economy' is the only area that Romney wins on.

Even I agree that Romney would do better, but that has more to do with Congress (which will hopefully change speakers in 2014). So it would only be a two year advantage, and come at great cost to every other issue.
 
2012-09-10 01:00:13 PM

fozziewazzi: The real issue is how to provide affordable health care to people with pre-existing conditions. The Democrats have put forth that everyone should be mandated to purchase insurance to socialize the costs. I haven't heard a workable plan from the Republicans.


Wait, yes we have! It was proposed back in the day by the Heritage Foundation as a response to Clinton's health care reform proposal. I think it involved mandating everyone purchase insurance to socialize the costs.
 
2012-09-10 01:00:14 PM

Saiga410: Aarontology: If you have a traditional health insurance policy, you are paying for other people, and they are paying for you.

I disagree. The insurance is a service from a company. You buy this service and how the company handles the money is not relevant.


It's entirely relevant, because of how an insurance company handles it's money. The money goes into the risk pool, not individualized accounts based upon each person's payment history. Every time someone with my insurance goes to the doctor, they're using a little bit of my money. And vice versa.

For example, I had about $600 worth of dental work done recently. I have not paid nearly that much into the plan I'm currently on. They drew from the risk pool in order to make those payments to my dentist. However, I've not been to the doctor for anything more serious than a stomach infection. The cost to my insurer was about two months worth of my contributions. One of my co-workers recently had a child, and her costs were far beyond what she had contributed. In that case, she was paying for my dental work, and i was paying for her delivery. Along with everyone else whose payments are put into the risk pool.
 
2012-09-10 01:00:18 PM

qorkfiend: You didn't know that the entire point of the individual mandate was to prevent precisely the sort of jump-on, jump-off behavior you were describing?


I wasn't in favor of violating the Constitution, and forcing people to act in a way that for many is against their own interests on order to finance this mess. Didn't seem to bother arch "conservative" Roberts though.
 
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