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(Chicago Trib)   Chicago teachers decide to help make the case against public-sector unions   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 288
    More: Interesting, public sector unions, Chicago, CTU, House of Delegates, CPS  
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6843 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Sep 2012 at 3:52 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-09 11:22:14 PM
Good. It's about time the teachers started fighting back, after years of getting blamed for EVERYTHING that's wrong with education.

Enough is enough.
 
2012-09-09 11:22:28 PM
Hey subby, if the poverty and life choices and chances of other people weighed in on your salary, you might take a different view of things.

/not a teacher
 
2012-09-09 11:24:51 PM
Sorry, but the teachers aren't asking for much in the grand scheme of things. Considering they have been underpaid and under-equipped for years. I like Rahm and all, but he's asking far too much of an already overworked group of teachers, and is giving nothing in return for their work.

/knows a lot of teachers
//all of whom work too hard for too little money
 
2012-09-09 11:33:22 PM
I don't know what their problem is. From what I've heard from Fox News and Republicans, teachers are rolling in cash and barely work at all.
 
2012-09-09 11:34:17 PM
Amazing this got an upvote. I've downvoted it, shame I have no more downvotes to give.
 
2012-09-09 11:34:52 PM

naughtyrev: Hey subby, if the poverty and life choices and chances of other people weighed in on your salary, you might take a different view of things.

/not a teacher


Chicago is a Democrat stronghold, run by Obama's boy-wonder Rahm Emanuel. Since they're the ones who aren't giving in to the unions demands--they just don't care, right?
 
2012-09-09 11:36:12 PM
I'm confused as to how this headline relates to this article.
 
2012-09-09 11:37:36 PM
A democrat farking over a teachers union. This thread will be fun to watch

/grabs popcorn
 
2012-09-09 11:38:00 PM

DamnYankees: I'm confused as to how this headline relates to this article.


Unupions bad and furthermore
 
2012-09-09 11:38:49 PM
Civil liberties and the bill of rights are the most important thing on earth...except for the right to assemble.
 
2012-09-09 11:41:33 PM

DamnYankees: I'm confused as to how this headline relates to this article.


Second cousin, once removed.
 
2012-09-09 11:42:03 PM
The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.
 
2012-09-09 11:42:39 PM

SilentStrider: DamnYankees: I'm confused as to how this headline relates to this article.

Unupions bad and furthermore


Yikes. Unions, even. Wow. Not sure what happened there.
 
2012-09-09 11:43:46 PM
And we're green, and will appear on the site when a supervisor gets back from his break.
 
2012-09-09 11:43:53 PM

dj_bigbird: The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.


Constant cuts to education on the federal and state levels aren't exactly helping.
 
2012-09-09 11:45:49 PM
Chicago parents must be shiatting bricks tonight. Let cops and firefighters go on strike; I'll take my chances. But do NOT fark with my free day care, dammit!
 
2012-09-09 11:49:49 PM
Great, more kids on the streets catching all the bullets flying around Chicago.
 
2012-09-09 11:52:09 PM

knbber2: Great, more kids on the streets catching = more bullets flying around Chicago.


FTFY
 
2012-09-09 11:56:44 PM
It would be nice if we had some federal standards, like limiting class size to 25 students per teacher, and things like federal funds to build new schools, so you don't have crowding issues like the school in NYC that came up on Fark a few days back having to given students lunch at like 9:45AM.
 
2012-09-09 11:59:35 PM

knbber2: Great, more kids on the streets catching all the bullets flying around Chicago.


Well, teachers do want smaller class sizes.
 
2012-09-10 12:02:17 AM
I wonder how they will keep the gangmembers separate in the consolidate schools where the administrators teach.

Administrators teach, they would be better off it the gang bangers taught.
 
2012-09-10 12:04:07 AM

WhyteRaven74: It would be nice if we had some federal standards, like limiting class size to 25 students per teacher, and things like federal funds to build new schools, so you don't have crowding issues like the school in NYC that came up on Fark a few days back having to given students lunch at like 9:45AM.


I don't believe it has been shown that class size has an impact on learning.

The idea of lunch at 9:45 is absurd.

We should let teachers, teach. Stop making them psychologists, de facto parents, and police.
 
2012-09-10 12:06:36 AM

feckingmorons: We should let teachers, teach. Stop making them psychologists, de facto parents, and police.


Teachers have ALWAYS been all three.
 
2012-09-10 12:08:09 AM

dj_bigbird: The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.


Or, the city could find a way to pay the necessary costs to provide proper COL wage increases, offset increases in the cost of the healthcare costs, and still provide for the retirees.

Teachers aren't paid very much, but one of the perks is that as long as you are doing your job well you expect excellent job security, full health benefits, and a pension when you retire. If they want to change the game to increase salary rates dramatically so that the teachers can afford private retirement plans and health insurance they may be able to swing enough of the younger teachers to push the union in that direction.

What they are trying to do instead is not pay much more, especially in light of years of skipped COL increases, and increase the cost to the current teachers for healthcare costs and retirement. The unions have a very good reason to be upset about this.

The big problem in a lot of areas is that school funding comes from local property taxes, and few people will ever vote for a tax increase for themselves.
 
2012-09-10 12:09:55 AM

dj_bigbird: The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.


In general the states, not the individual school districts, manage teacher retirement accounts. Teachers are considered public employees in the states.

In many cases, the states offered good benefits in lieu of salaries. Then they invested public employee retirement funds in the stock market. When it crashed, and the housing market crashed, the loss in revenue and loss of funds were used as an excuse to cut those benefits.

If the states had paid a fair salary up front, they wouldn't be on the hook for all those retirement funds.
 
2012-09-10 12:10:48 AM
At a time when people are getting paid less , these teachers walk away from a 16% pay increase under unin rules? Emmanuel should pull a Reagan and fire the all. That would've ashowworth watching.
 
2012-09-10 12:11:02 AM

TuteTibiImperes: The big problem in a lot of areas is that school funding comes from local property taxes, and few people will ever vote for a tax increase for themselves.


My county voted to increase our property taxes in 2010 because the Republican state government was cutting so much funding for the schools including a property tax cap. But then again, we are a liberal, pinko college town where everyone is way over educated.
 
2012-09-10 12:12:06 AM

EnviroDude: At a time when people are getting paid less , these teachers walk away from a 16% pay increase under unin rules? Emmanuel should pull a Reagan and fire the all. That would've ashowworth watching.


I'm sure Chicago will enjoy all those kids running around with nothing to do while they take a year to replace all those teachers.

Can't imagine how that will affect the crime rate or anything.

//The wrongful termination suits will be great, too.
 
2012-09-10 12:12:54 AM

EnviroDude: At a time when people are getting paid less , these teachers walk away from a 16% pay increase under unin rules? Emmanuel should pull a Reagan and fire the all. That would've ashowworth watching.


God forbid workers should work together to demand pay raises. They should just pay what they're told and like it!
 
2012-09-10 12:17:19 AM

EnviroDude: At a time when people are getting paid less , these teachers walk away from a 16% pay increase under unin rules? Emmanuel should pull a Reagan and fire the all. That would've ashowworth watching.


Apparently they are also looking to increase the time at work for teachers by about 20%. In light of that, asking for more money isn't unreasonable.
 
2012-09-10 12:17:28 AM

TuteTibiImperes: dj_bigbird: The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.

Or, the city could find a way to pay the necessary costs to provide proper COL wage increases, offset increases in the cost of the healthcare costs, and still provide for the retirees.

Teachers aren't paid very much, but one of the perks is that as long as you are doing your job well you expect excellent job security, full health benefits, and a pension when you retire. If they want to change the game to increase salary rates dramatically so that the teachers can afford private retirement plans and health insurance they may be able to swing enough of the younger teachers to push the union in that direction.

What they are trying to do instead is not pay much more, especially in light of years of skipped COL increases, and increase the cost to the current teachers for healthcare costs and retirement. The unions have a very good reason to be upset about this.

The big problem in a lot of areas is that school funding comes from local property taxes, and few people will ever vote for a tax increase for themselves.


In my town we have needed a new high school for ages. Ours was built in the early 1900's and was overcrowded by the 1980's. The tried to get a new high school built and the town kept voting no. So they kept working on the existing one trying to keep it going and expanding it wherever they could. Finally it got to the point where they just couldn't rig it anymore and they were begging and pleading for the town to vote for a new school...and then it only took another 10 years for them to finally agree to it. So this year the new school finally opened. And everyone in the town loves it and are now biatching about how it should have built years ago.....
 
2012-09-10 12:25:08 AM

cameroncrazy1984: feckingmorons: We should let teachers, teach. Stop making them psychologists, de facto parents, and police.

Teachers have ALWAYS been all three.


Kids haven't always been the basket cases they are now and parents were at one time participatory not drugged into oblivion.

Teachers can't do all 3 anymore. So let them teach, that is what they went to college for (and would be annoyed in the way I composed that sentence).
 
2012-09-10 12:25:16 AM

feckingmorons: I don't believe it has been shown that class size has an impact on learning.


Isn't if it does or not, it's just a matter of keeping things sane for the teachers.

Kimothy: Then they invested public employee retirement funds in the stock market. When it crashed, and the housing market crashed, the loss in revenue and loss of funds were used as an excuse to cut those benefits.


And given how the funds were managed I'm surprised no state has gone after those who were managing the money in civil court.
 
2012-09-10 12:26:15 AM

feckingmorons: Kids haven't always been the basket cases they are now


The number of kids who are basket cases is pretty damn small and it's nothing new either.
 
2012-09-10 12:27:29 AM

WhyteRaven74: Isn't if it does or not, it's just a matter of keeping things sane for the teachers.


It has never, ever been shown to be detrimental, I'll wager.

But if the money is not there, well there can't be smaller classes.

I have long been an advocate of doing away with HS football to pay for more teachers, but that is not too popular.
 
2012-09-10 12:28:56 AM

feckingmorons: But if the money is not there, well there can't be smaller classes.


Then make sure the schools have the money. Get rid of having each district with different spending per student. Living in a poor area shouldn't mean the are schools are badly funded. A school in the poorest area should be as well funded as a school in the wealthiest area.
 
2012-09-10 12:30:05 AM

Tellingthem: TuteTibiImperes: dj_bigbird: The teacher's unions are eating their young. After years (decades?) of promising lifetime benefits to the retired teachers, those retired teachers are now collecting those benefits, causing school districts to find ways to reduce costs. In some California districts, personnel expenses are 80% of the total budget and a huge chunk of that is retiree benefits. They (the unions) are reaping what they have sown.

Or, the city could find a way to pay the necessary costs to provide proper COL wage increases, offset increases in the cost of the healthcare costs, and still provide for the retirees.

Teachers aren't paid very much, but one of the perks is that as long as you are doing your job well you expect excellent job security, full health benefits, and a pension when you retire. If they want to change the game to increase salary rates dramatically so that the teachers can afford private retirement plans and health insurance they may be able to swing enough of the younger teachers to push the union in that direction.

What they are trying to do instead is not pay much more, especially in light of years of skipped COL increases, and increase the cost to the current teachers for healthcare costs and retirement. The unions have a very good reason to be upset about this.

The big problem in a lot of areas is that school funding comes from local property taxes, and few people will ever vote for a tax increase for themselves.

In my town we have needed a new high school for ages. Ours was built in the early 1900's and was overcrowded by the 1980's. The tried to get a new high school built and the town kept voting no. So they kept working on the existing one trying to keep it going and expanding it wherever they could. Finally it got to the point where they just couldn't rig it anymore and they were begging and pleading for the town to vote for a new school...and then it only took another 10 years for them to finally agree to it. So this year the ...


A new approach might help. Ask for the property tax increase, but stagger it by property value so that the lowest quartile receives a tax break, the middle two remain the same, and the top increases enough to offset the loss on the bottom and fund whatever needs to be built. You then have a situation where 75% of your voters have no reason to say no - they either get a tax break, better schools, or both.
 
2012-09-10 12:30:10 AM

WhyteRaven74: feckingmorons: Kids haven't always been the basket cases they are now

The number of kids who are basket cases is pretty damn small and it's nothing new either.


My assistant was a teacher in Hillsborough county schools, she said that her kids come to school unfed, barely dressed or in the same clothes day after day, and parent teacher conferences are seldom attended.

That differs from my elementary school experience, it is also several decades after mine.

I have a great deal of respect for teachers, without good teachers I would not be where I am today. I had 12 years of nuns until I started university.
 
2012-09-10 12:32:13 AM

WhyteRaven74: feckingmorons: But if the money is not there, well there can't be smaller classes.

Then make sure the schools have the money. Get rid of having each district with different spending per student. Living in a poor area shouldn't mean the are schools are badly funded. A school in the poorest area should be as well funded as a school in the wealthiest area.


That's a good point. Take all funding currently coming into all school systems in the state, average it to a per-pupil amount, and award it back to schools based on enrollment equally per student.
 
2012-09-10 12:33:23 AM

feckingmorons: he said that her kids come to school unfed, barely dressed or in the same clothes day after day, and parent teacher conferences are seldom attended.


There have always been schools where this was the case. That it is still something that happens speaks to how little is done to help the poor.
 
2012-09-10 12:33:36 AM

Kimothy: EnviroDude: At a time when people are getting paid less , these teachers walk away from a 16% pay increase under unin rules? Emmanuel should pull a Reagan and fire the all. That would've ashowworth watching.

I'm sure Chicago will enjoy all those kids running around with nothing to do while they take a year to replace all those teachers.

Can't imagine how that will affect the crime rate or anything.

//The wrongful termination suits will be great, too.


IIRC fired for striking is a valid reason for termination.
 
2012-09-10 12:35:10 AM

cman: IIRC fired for striking is a valid reason for termination.


Not in a non "right-to-work" state.
 
2012-09-10 12:35:21 AM

TuteTibiImperes: and award it back to schools based on enrollment equally per student.


Oh I don't think of doing it that way. Doing it by averaging means those in well to do areas will see their funding go down, this is not a good idea. Instead find a way to bring everyone up to that level. Of course then you have the issue of variations between states.
 
2012-09-10 12:37:11 AM

cameroncrazy1984: cman: IIRC fired for striking is a valid reason for termination.

Not in a non "right-to-work" state.


As I said, IIRC
 
2012-09-10 12:38:18 AM
It's always interesting to me how the media portrays education in our country. On one hand you got Prezbo caring about the students and their parents not giving a shiat on the Wire and now there's this new movie where the school doesn't give a shiat, but Maggie Gyllenhaal will turn her dyslexic kid around. What am I saying? It's a complex issue with different factors at play which have gone on now for decades, but don't underestimate Hollywood when it comes to creating battles for the middle class and the poor to wage against each other.
 
2012-09-10 12:39:15 AM

cman: cameroncrazy1984: cman: IIRC fired for striking is a valid reason for termination.

Not in a non "right-to-work" state.

As I said, IIRC


I'll elaborate on what I meant. I said IIRC, and that should automatically imply that I am unsure ultimately but I think it could be.
 
2012-09-10 12:40:32 AM
Larger class sizes make teaching impossible.

You can get away with it in college for stupid busywork classes where it's basically "Read the book, take a test." but in practical terms you just can't keep 45 kids on task for anything.

The best you can manage for evaluation at that point is "Didn't eat the kid next to him." Especially if you have more than one school.

A class with 12 kids though? You'll know them very well by the end of a week.
 
2012-09-10 12:44:48 AM
Those kids ain't gonna teach themselves.
 
2012-09-10 01:06:30 AM

WhyteRaven74: feckingmorons: But if the money is not there, well there can't be smaller classes.

Then make sure the schools have the money. Get rid of having each district with different spending per student. Living in a poor area shouldn't mean the are schools are badly funded. A school in the poorest area should be as well funded as a school in the wealthiest area.


OK, you figure out a plan for that and I'll go along with it.

It won't be easy to achieve that. Most schools are funded by ad valorem (real estate) taxes and the value of real estate has plummeted of late so the money is not there. Good luck convincing others to pay more local taxes.

I prefer local taxes, I can see where the money is going and if we are getting good ROI and our local elected representatives can't hide from me as well when I want to complain. I'd gladly pay more local tax if the department of education at the federal level were to take less federal tax.
 
2012-09-10 01:08:11 AM

cameroncrazy1984: cman: IIRC fired for striking is a valid reason for termination.

Not in a non "right-to-work" state.


What?

Generally federal law prevents firing union employees for striking if they are bargaining in good faith. State right to work laws have absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
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