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(Daily Mail)   Crazy guy warns that the smug organic mob is coming, and if they have their way, you'll never be able to afford a chicken for Sunday lunch ever again. That's right, NEVER   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 23
    More: Interesting, Waitrose, Jamie Oliver, organic movement, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, joints, McNuggets, organic products, Marco Pierre White  
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7272 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Sep 2012 at 9:21 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-09-09 09:48:20 AM
6 votes:
You know, I have no problem with Organic, Mass Produced, Genetically Altered or even "pink slime". My only issue in the US, is LABEL THE FARKING THING! More Specifically label it accurately and stop with all the bullshiat. For all the Conservative Crazies out there screaming about the free market, it seems to me this is a perfect example. If you label something accurately then the consumer can choose what he or she wants to eat and decide if the price is fair or to go with a cheaper (and perhaps unhealthy) alternative
2012-09-09 10:47:57 AM
4 votes:

fluffy2097: I've heard some organic foods taste better.


Yes, but not because it's organic. The Soil Association in the UK have rules that you have to go through to get accreditation besides the pesticides thing. So, for instance, animals have to be free range. Which of these two factors do you think makes bacon taste good? Whether Porky has eaten grass which had some pesticides put on it, or whether Porky got proper muscle development?

If you're an excellent, niche producer who doesn't cut corners, you're already ticking most of the boxes for your product meeting the Soil Association standards. For many producers, they'll take the few extra steps to get the accreditation because then they get extra sales to the organic buyers.

I know a bacon producer that produces excellent bacon. It's properly cured from free range pigs. Om nom nom etc. One day, I asked them if they would consider going organic. They told me that they could, if they did one thing - took the pigs off the fields and left it fallow for a time (it's basically a requirement about ensuring the pesticides are gone). Other than that, everything they do meets the standard. They don't put fertiliser on the fields, don't use antibiotics unless the animal is ill, allow the pigs to roam free.

Now, which is better tasting bacon? That one, or the one from the organic farm nearby? I'll tell you, it's the non-organic one.

Another example: a brewery near me went organic. The guy is a craft brewer, doesn't cut corners. Uses only water, barley, hops and yeast. Bought excellent hops and barley because he wanted to make a great product. One day, his barley producer went organic. So, all he then had to do was to find an organic hop supplier and then go through some accreditation steps and he was organic. The thing is, the post-organic beer didn't taste much different to the pre-organic beer.

And finally... a cru classe producer in Bordeaux was asked if he would consider going organic. He asked what that was involved and then told the interviewer that actually, they already did all of that.

In other words, organic tasting good is more of a correlation with the fact that you're buying from high quality producers who then seek out to get the organic mark. You can find crap organics, and the reason is that some industrial producers simply sit down with the rules and work out the bare minimum to pass the standard. Personally, I just buy from individual producers that I know make good products, and most of them aren't organic.
2012-09-09 09:40:15 AM
4 votes:

Lunaville: This smug "organic" Mom already feels like she lives in a corporate Orwellian society when the pediatrician closes the door, turns on the water, and says "Please, don't tell anyone I was the one that told you, but only feed your children organic milk and meat. Here's why ... ".

I want organic choices and, while it would be swell if organic options were cheaper, I don't want the standards for the organic label lowered so as to make it easier for Beatrice companies to acquire that label for their products.


You're a nut, and your pediatrician has an investment in an organic place that specializes in taking money from nuts.
2012-09-09 08:29:31 AM
4 votes:
This smug "organic" Mom already feels like she lives in a corporate Orwellian society when the pediatrician closes the door, turns on the water, and says "Please, don't tell anyone I was the one that told you, but only feed your children organic milk and meat. Here's why ... ".

I want organic choices and, while it would be swell if organic options were cheaper, I don't want the standards for the organic label lowered so as to make it easier for Beatrice companies to acquire that label for their products.
2012-09-09 10:27:35 AM
2 votes:

zobear: Nutritional value isn't the only reason people buy organic.


One brazillion 'THIS'

Ecologically sound food production HAS to happen. It's even more important than sorting your recycling from your landfill refuse.

/thinks global, eats local.
//also orders local-source for his restaurant - including supporting local allotment growers, who generally fertilize with locally procured manure.
///has own allotment 
////waves paw at zobear
2012-09-09 09:43:01 AM
2 votes:
I dont think it has to do with what's in organic chicken that would make it healthier, but rather what ISN'T in it.
2012-09-09 04:11:34 PM
1 votes:
More stupid reductionist anti-green propaganda brought to you by your favourite source of pseudo-scientific BS, the Daily Mule.

I seldom buy organic. The excepion is bananas, which are grown with a horrendous amount of pesticide (although it doesn't get past the skin, it gets into the environment) and tomatoes which are another food that is grown under grotesque artificial circumstances--not only massive amounts of pesticides but fossil water pumped into desert sand, artificial ripening and breeding out of flavour).

Most organic food is not worth the extra cost to me or other people who are not rich and foolish.

However, every one of these BS stories ignores the real points.

True, organic food does not have more nutritional value from being organic. It gets any nutritional surplus it has from being fresh. Time is the critical limiting factor in the nutritional value and flavour of vegetables, fruit and many other foods. Organic food produced by a corporation in Brazil or Chile or Morocco and flown to you, only to sit in a warehouse, truck or store for weeks is not healthier than agro-indusrial product. But organic food purchased straight from the farmer who picked it the morning of sale is a lot better for you than industrial product because it is fresh.

From there on, the lies come fast and thick, or rather, the lies by omission.

Organic food is better in many ways.

It is not devoid of pesticides, antibiotics, etc, because even fresh water flowing into the Arctic Ocean is no devoid of pollution, but it has much less.

Growing food with fewer antibiotics and pesticides helps prevent immunity developing in pests and microbes, and from being carried to wild species (weeds) and other potential pests by microbes.

Growing food organically can be polluting (more waste at farm level, manure, etc.) but the amount of waste that happens between field or orchard and the consumer's waste bin is immense in any case and organic farming is unlikely to contribute much to the total, even if the bean counters (ha! ha!) can juggle the numbers to show that it is better, worse or the same as industrial product or regular farm produce.

I expect that the organic consumer is deluded when they think it tastes better--you can "prove" this by the kind of BS that the "skeptical" TV show "Bullshiat!" did in a farmer's market, but, of course, that ignores the question of freshness, varieties grown, natural versus forced growth, watering whether natural or mechanical, and a thousand other variables that mean that at least some organic food really is healthier, safer, cleaner, tastier, etc.

This is reductionist bullshiat at its bullest and shiatiest. I've watched all eight seasons of BS! and find ha they produce as much as they destroy. Some of their episodes are nothing but "libertarian" propaganda, "rationalist" pseudo-rationalism, and crap. Some are great. Of course, every crank would say the same about any debunker who debunks crap they don't believe in and crap they do, but I think my BS-detector is strong enough to recognize BS produced by "Our Side" (if there is one) as well as "Their Side" (there are always dozens of those).

In short, the choice to consume organic or not depends on a large number of variables and trade-offs, and the consumer is ill-equipped to make them because of the vast number of claims and products between which she must choose, but organic farming is NOT a write-off and industrial farming is not a panacea or a world-saver. It's all about choices and the choices have to be made separately for each product or permutation and combination of products.

I do no doubt that some meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc., in the diet is green but it depends on so many variables I can not say which piece of meat, which eggs, or which dairy farmer is the right one.

Poor people have to stick to what they can afford. The rest of us, who spend more than we need to or should on food but only a very small percentage of our household budget, get to make impossible choices on faulty and limited information while being barraged with BS from all quarters. Lucky us. Thank God I am not rich and do not have even more choices.

My advice: eat better, look out for signs of scamming, and vary your food sources so you are not getting too much from one food or one source. Even if they are all larded (literally or not) with poisons, you can keep the dose of any particular poison down with a varied and generally healthy diet of less-processed, less-travelled, less-stored, and less-manipulated food stuffs.

Many fruits and vegetables have their own inherant risks. Brazil nuts are radioactive because they contain a lot of healthy Potassium, some of which is radioactive naturally. Don't pig out on pig toes. Bananas are likewise full of Potassium and thus radioactive. Don't go bananas with the 'naners.

Eat a variety, wash carefully, cook carefully, and learn as much as you can about where you food comes from and how. You're lucky if it has a country of origin label or a corporate logo let alone real useful information connected to it, but with the web, a massive amount of information could be cheaply gathered and disseminated if the government wasn't owned by the corporations or the consumer rose in sufficient numbers to demand the government step away from its chums with brief cases full of shiney expensive propaganda and tainted cash.

READING THE DAILY MAIL EXCEEDS YOUR DAILY MAXIMUM DAILY LIMIT DOSAGE OF BULL-SHIAT! MAKE RESPONSIBLE AND HEALTHIER CHOICES!
2012-09-09 01:55:11 PM
1 votes:

farkeruk: Portia: Plus taste. For me, eggs are the biggest difference. My parents' chickens are accidentally free-range (they escape the coop but stay on the property and return to lay eggs). They are some of the best eggs I've ever tasted...the yolk is a rich orangey-yellow, the shells are more difficult to break. Not officially organic but damn close to it. The chickens are content to roam around freely and live pretty cushy lives compared to their brethren on factory farms.

That's free-range, not organic. Free-range makes a difference to the taste. I've yet to find that organic does.

Yup. Free-range eggs are awesome. I'm sorry I ever tried them, because it makes it hard to go back to "regular" eggs. It's not a subtle difference, is it? It's obvious as hell.

The only "organic" food I've found that tastes different is milk. Regular milk is like chalky water in comparison. Sometimes I wonder if they're just lying about the fat content in the organic version...

With fruits and what not, I can't find any difference, except that oddly enough often the "organic" tastes worse. So it's free-range eggs and organic milk for me and I'm happy.

2012-09-09 12:19:51 PM
1 votes:

Krieghund: TFA completely avoided enviromental reasons to eat organic.

Personally, there are a few things I try to eat organic. Mostly they are meats and dairy, because I'm concerned about hormones and antibiotics in my food. Chemicals on produce just mean I have to wash them before I eat them. GMO isn't a big deal to me.


I'm a big fan of the sciences--all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over the years--but GMO kind of makes me nervous. Maybe it's a bias on my part, but when I look at our past history with other food goofs, I'm not all that encouraged that we really know what we're doing yet. After it was discovered, people mixed radium into drinks (and added it to all sorts of other things) because it glowed. Artificial sweeteners such as cyclamates and saccharine turned out to be carcinogenic.

Most GMOs are probably completely harmless, but since genetics are massively complex, I have no doubt that we'll end up with a few combos of modified food that seem safe but cause the consumer to give birth to flipper babies or anarchists or something. The GMOs are also developed by corporations (with ever-increasing protection from lawsuits), which I suppose could also account for some of my trust issues.

Not saying I have a better idea, but I'd rather die from plain old sugar or fat than from aspartame or Olestra. I guess I'm just a classicist at heart.
2012-09-09 11:32:40 AM
1 votes:

psunbird92: Please, the smug organic crowd is already here. One tried to tell me not to use the microwave, for that it would take the nutrients from my meat. Whack-a-doodle.


Lots of reasons not to cook meat with a microwave. The nutrients being removed is not one of them.
2012-09-09 11:29:55 AM
1 votes:

Semi-Sane: Freshness is the only thing that will have any noticeable effect on the flavor of the food. That's why if you have some land you should have your own garden. Nothing tastes better than produce that comes straight from the garden to the dinner table.


It's not about freshness. It's about the genetics of the crops involved.

Factory farmed tomatoes for example, are designed to be able to survive being handled by farm machinery without being damaged. They are also bred to be large, and red and uniformly shaped, as that is what consumers consider "A good tomato" this actually breeds the taste out of them as a side effect (In the case of tomatoes anyways).

A home grown tomato grown "organically" in a garden that hasn't been bred specifically to look good and keep a long time, is going to taste better then a factory farmed tomato. It will also be significantly smaller, it won't keep as long, will be more subject to bruising, and it wont be as uniform.

But it will taste better.

If you have the luxury of being able to grow your own food properly from good genetics, it's going to taste better then factory farmed, monoculture genetics.

Unfortunately, if we want to provide the whole world with tomatoes, we're going to need the factory farmed ones.
2012-09-09 11:24:30 AM
1 votes:

zobear: Nutritional value isn't the only reason people buy organic.


ekologhealth.ru
2012-09-09 11:20:42 AM
1 votes:

oukewldave: DisregardTheFollowing: Target. Entire roasted chickens, kept at serving temperature. $6 per chicken. PER CHICKEN!! I'm in love.

Sam's Club has the best ones.


Yeah, but they're made in China and raised on a steady diet of lead, PCB's, and Spotted Dick.
2012-09-09 11:14:54 AM
1 votes:
3.bp.blogspot.com

media.silive.com

www.lopezcuttinghorses.com

Food garden, chickens and cattle. It's a lot of work but my family is not beholden to idiots, zealots, catastrophes nor "health science".
2012-09-09 11:07:28 AM
1 votes:

Portia: Plus taste. For me, eggs are the biggest difference. My parents' chickens are accidentally free-range (they escape the coop but stay on the property and return to lay eggs). They are some of the best eggs I've ever tasted...the yolk is a rich orangey-yellow, the shells are more difficult to break. Not officially organic but damn close to it. The chickens are content to roam around freely and live pretty cushy lives compared to their brethren on factory farms.


That's free-range, not organic. Free-range makes a difference to the taste. I've yet to find that organic does.
2012-09-09 11:02:13 AM
1 votes:

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: 06Wahoo: zobear: Nutritional value isn't the only reason people buy organic.

No, but it does seem to be the big push being made by people favoring organic foods these days.

Who? Where? I've literally NEVER seen that claim made. It makes no scientific sense anyway, so I can't imagine why anyone would say it. Again, are you confusing 'healthier' with 'contains more good stuff'? Organic food does not contain more good stuff; there's no scientific reason why it would that I can think of. It does, however, contain less bad stuff, and less bad stuff is indisputably healthier.


Plus taste. For me, eggs are the biggest difference. My parents' chickens are accidentally free-range (they escape the coop but stay on the property and return to lay eggs). They are some of the best eggs I've ever tasted...the yolk is a rich orangey-yellow, the shells are more difficult to break. Not officially organic but damn close to it. The chickens are content to roam around freely and live pretty cushy lives compared to their brethren on factory farms.
2012-09-09 11:02:04 AM
1 votes:

JackieRabbit: Some of us have always known that the "organic" movement is really a marketing ploy to separate us from more of our money. Many of the foods labeled organic are not organic at all. The USDA has regulations about this, of course, but they are not being enforced. The pesticides used these days are designed to do their job and begin breaking down within hours. Most of the applied pesticides are gone within a week. Very few persistent pesticides are used anymore. The ones currently approved for agricultural use have a very low toxicity and the amount that gets into our food is not trivial.


Bullsh*t.
2012-09-09 10:36:39 AM
1 votes:

uttertosh: Ecologically sound food production HAS to happen. It's even more important than sorting your recycling from your landfill refuse.


You realize that using only organic farming techniques would starve like, half of the entire planet right?
2012-09-09 10:18:40 AM
1 votes:
Some of us have always known that the "organic" movement is really a marketing ploy to separate us from more of our money. Many of the foods labeled organic are not organic at all. The USDA has regulations about this, of course, but they are not being enforced. The pesticides used these days are designed to do their job and begin breaking down within hours. Most of the applied pesticides are gone within a week. Very few persistent pesticides are used anymore. The ones currently approved for agricultural use have a very low toxicity and the amount that gets into our food is not trivial.
2012-09-09 10:00:35 AM
1 votes:
Hey Mainstream, Your double reverse propaganda is not working so well actually.
2012-09-09 09:40:52 AM
1 votes:
Drop some money into a farm co-op. You'll have to deal with bumbles, but it's damned good flesh. Also vegetables, if that's your thing.

/mid 6 figures 4 years ago, food for life
//assuming no zombie apocalypse
/which would be awesome
2012-09-09 09:29:33 AM
1 votes:
The DIly Mail. It's like spending 20 minutes in a mental hospital.
2012-09-09 09:26:21 AM
1 votes:
Target. Entire roasted chickens, kept at serving temperature. $6 per chicken. PER CHICKEN!! I'm in love.
 
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