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(Debka Files)   In A.D. 2012. War was beginning   (debka.com) divider line 208
    More: Scary, Syrians, foreign intervention, Prime Minister of Turkey, Israeli intelligence, Erdogan, Syrian rebels, Free Syrian Army, brigades  
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36908 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Sep 2012 at 10:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-07 11:18:07 AM

Weaver95: War. War never changes.



fc05.deviantart.net
War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles fought by mercenaries and machines. War - and its consumption of life - has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control... All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield... controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control... War becomes routine.
 
2012-09-07 11:18:39 AM

Clemkadidlefark: vudukungfu: Only way to win is not to play.

Didn't work too well for Austria


Switzerland usually does pretty well with this strategy.
 
2012-09-07 11:19:13 AM

MythDragon: Weaver95: War. War never changes.


[siliconsasquatch.com image 850x520]
"War has changed. "


Damn it!.
 
2012-09-07 11:21:19 AM

Canton: trotsky: YixilTesiphon: Is this a trustworthy source?

They link back to Newsmax. So I'm sorta starting to doubt it. Every other headline is about how Israel is sick of dealing with Obama.

Anybody else have an opinion?

I'm not finding much more than the usual at Al Jazeera English. The top headline seems to be "Two bombings strike Damascus." Those would be a motorcycle bombing and a car bombing. Which is just another sad day in the region, to be honest. I'm not seeing anything striking regarding Israel or Turkey. The big news here is the civil war in Syria...



I'm not writing to defend Assad, but bombings like this were pretty rare before we started teaching the rebels how to build, conceal, and deploy this manner of explosive. In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.
 
2012-09-07 11:22:12 AM

Magorn: In 2002 It must have seemed like such a good idea to Wolfowitz and his cronies to take out Saddam as the perennial thorn in Israel's side.

What they failed to realize is that Saddam's ruthless but secular Ba'athist rule was the only thing keeping a lot of the local would-be Jihadis in check. They further dailed to realize that after Wolfie and the boys made threatening noises towards Syria (back when Iraq looked it would the cake-walk they promised) That Assad senior, also a secular Ba'athist dictator would panic and cut a deal with all HIS imprisoned would-be Sa'alfist jihadis that he'd let them out of jail if they promised to pack up their guns and bombs and take their Jihadi zeal across the border to Iraq to fight the Americans.

The problem is, that war is over, and Iraq is really not a welcoming or safe place for those guys now, so a lot of those Jihadis got homesick, and took thier heavily armed, combat-tested selves back across the border and set thier sights on taking down the younger Assad.

And Israel, which expected to have a pacified pro-western Iraq and a weakened Syria on its borders now faces the prospects of bordering a de-stablized Iraq, A Syria controlled by violent , radical hard-line Salafists, an Egypt run by the Muslim Brotherhood, and a resurgent (iraninan-fueled) Hezbollah in Lebanon.


If only there was a book that ISraelis consider sacred that included a warning about sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind


It truly amazes me the lengths to which antisemitics will go to blame anything and everything on Israel.

Good lord, do you curse Jews when your breakfast cereal turns soggy?
 
2012-09-07 11:23:25 AM

Magorn: de-stablized Iraq, A Syria controlled by violent , radical hard-line Salafists, an Egypt run by the Muslim Brotherhood, and a resurgent (iraninan-fueled) Hezbollah in Lebanon.


Israel never wanted the Iraq war; the groups opposing Assad are more complicated than just Salafis, there's a large group of mainstream Syrians opposing him, and you're ignoring the very large Alawi/Sunni issue; and Iran has been supporting Hezbollah for years, and in fact is less able to support them because of the effects of sanctions, reduced oil income, and diversion of resources to other areas. Also, Syria will not be able to furnish anywhere near the resources to Hezbollah as in the past.

The biggest problem for Israel is the extension of chaos in the region. There will be a lot of loose cannon rolling around uncontrolled by any central government, plus the likelihood of more radicalized governments.
 
2012-09-07 11:24:19 AM

CygnusDarius: Weaver95: War. War never changes.


[fc05.deviantart.net image 600x627]
War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles fought by mercenaries and machines. War - and its consumption of life - has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control... All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield... controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control... War becomes routine.


One of the Best Sci-fi war novels I've read in a long time, probably because the author is ex-three inital agency and was in Afghanistan in late 2001:
danieljeffreygoodman.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-09-07 11:25:34 AM

probesport: Lone Stranger: [www.veezzle.com image 600x600]

Turkey is safe now.

Awww ugly duckling

/bawk bawk


m0.mattters.com
 
2012-09-07 11:27:01 AM

Generation_D: In 2012, War in the Middle East was ongoing, as it has been for every year since Israel was installed there as a country against the wishes of the rest of the region by a government 3000 miles away who had colonial power to do so, but no real local mandate or participation. Someone set up us the bomb.

Arthur Balfour: All your base are belong to us.


They've been bopping each other with clubs over the Fertile Crescent since biblical times.
 
2012-09-07 11:27:08 AM

Heron: I'm not writing to defend Assad, but bombings like this were pretty rare before we started teaching the rebels how to build, conceal, and deploy this manner of explosive. In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.


Really? No one in the Middle East knew how to build a car-bomb before this? None of the Syrian Army defectors had explosives training? Yeah, EVERYTHING bad over there is our (or Israel's) fault. There's no bad blood between any of these folks, it's all our manufacture. If only we hadn't introduced firearms to them. But really, it's the Chinese' fault. They did invent gunpowder, after all.
 
2012-09-07 11:27:29 AM

Weaver95: War. War never changes.


The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth.
Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory.
Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower.
But war never changes.
 
2012-09-07 11:27:41 AM

Carousel Beast: It truly amazes me the lengths to which antisemitics will go to blame anything and everything on Israel.

Good lord, do you curse Jews when your breakfast cereal turns soggy?


24.media.tumblr.com

I bet the Jews did this!
 
2012-09-07 11:28:21 AM
Damnit aniyn,

beat me to it
 
2012-09-07 11:30:47 AM

Heron: In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.


Missed that point. I guess you don't remember Assad massacring the inhabitants of Hama a couple decades ago. After that Assad became particularly brutal, which discouraged further resistance until he died.
 
2012-09-07 11:31:19 AM

mark12A: Move every Zig


You know what you doing!
 
2012-09-07 11:39:58 AM

Heron: I'm not writing to defend Assad, but bombings like this were pretty rare before we started teaching the rebels how to build, conceal, and deploy this manner of explosive. In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.


Okay, point taken. I did mean the Middle East as a whole, not Syria in particular, but I am probably wrong about that, too. (Although, at this point hearing about a car bomb in the Middle East is always sad but no longer shocking.)
 
2012-09-07 11:40:08 AM
In the grim darkness of the present there is only war
 
2012-09-07 11:42:17 AM

Heron: I'm not writing to defend Assad, but bombings like this were pretty rare before we started teaching the rebels how to build, conceal, and deploy this manner of explosive. In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.


From what I understand, Syria is not known to publish those type of incidents to the general public, or even their own political allies, very much and for very good reasons.
 
2012-09-07 11:45:06 AM

Tainted1: In the grim darkness of the present there is only war


All kidding aside, I think we might be getting to a point that we're no longer fighting wars over the usual things. After seeing the GoTP intro again, I can see this to be the Weapons Companies biggest wet dream. Hell, in the future we might be fighting because the stocks went down (if we don't already).
 
2012-09-07 11:48:32 AM
Wow. Debka file. I have not seen that site in like a decade. Didn't even know it was around.

They're kind of the TMZ of Middle East conspiracy sites, only less reliable -- every once in a while they get a scoop, but you have to comb through a lot of bullshiat stories with no sources. To put it into perspective, they were partnered with World Nut Daily for a while. Very right wing and their sources, when they have any, are often right wing hawks with an agenda.
 
2012-09-07 11:49:47 AM

Galloping Galoshes: Heron: In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.

Missed that point. I guess you don't remember Assad massacring the inhabitants of Hama a couple decades ago. After that Assad became particularly brutal, which discouraged further resistance until he died.


Hussein, Assad, Gaddafi, etc.were very good at keeping a lid on things, usually by shooting whatever was in the pot, but they did it. The last few years seems to be a choice between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Neutral. In Afghanistan in the late 90s the people seemed to prefer Lawful Evil. Of course reality is more complicated than a 3x3 grid.
 
2012-09-07 11:50:46 AM

Tainted1: In the grim darkness of the present there is only war


www.critical-hits.com
 
2012-09-07 11:52:40 AM

Carousel Beast: Magorn: In 2002 It must have seemed like such a good idea to Wolfowitz and his cronies to take out Saddam as the perennial thorn in Israel's side.

What they failed to realize is that Saddam's ruthless but secular Ba'athist rule was the only thing keeping a lot of the local would-be Jihadis in check. They further dailed to realize that after Wolfie and the boys made threatening noises towards Syria (back when Iraq looked it would the cake-walk they promised) That Assad senior, also a secular Ba'athist dictator would panic and cut a deal with all HIS imprisoned would-be Sa'alfist jihadis that he'd let them out of jail if they promised to pack up their guns and bombs and take their Jihadi zeal across the border to Iraq to fight the Americans.

The problem is, that war is over, and Iraq is really not a welcoming or safe place for those guys now, so a lot of those Jihadis got homesick, and took thier heavily armed, combat-tested selves back across the border and set thier sights on taking down the younger Assad.

And Israel, which expected to have a pacified pro-western Iraq and a weakened Syria on its borders now faces the prospects of bordering a de-stablized Iraq, A Syria controlled by violent , radical hard-line Salafists, an Egypt run by the Muslim Brotherhood, and a resurgent (iraninan-fueled) Hezbollah in Lebanon.


If only there was a book that ISraelis consider sacred that included a warning about sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind

It truly amazes me the lengths to which antisemitics will go to blame anything and everything on Israel.

Good lord, do you curse Jews when your breakfast cereal turns soggy?


I'm anti-semetic now? Does the truth have an anti-semetic as well as liberal bias?

You ARE aware that Paul Wolfowitz, has openly said that we went to war with Iraq to help Israel and that the WMDS thing was given as the justification for the war "For bureaucratic reasons" yes?
 
2012-09-07 11:53:01 AM

Boudica's War Tampon: Galloping Galoshes: palelizard: Assuming for the moment this is all accurate, why would this cause a response from Lebanon/Hezbollah against Israel?

Doing so makes sense for Turkey, as right now they have all these Syrian soldiers, ex regulars, milling around inside or just outside their borders. In exchange for coordinated leadership, a safe haven, and probably weapons, Turkey gets the rebels under discipline and under its control, which means no unpleasant cross-border problems unless Turkey is on board with them.

I would be a little surprised if this report were true, however. I see a lot of downside for the rebels, and Turkey as well.

Unless Hezbollah decides to infiltrate Turkey and start terror attacks with Iranian-supplied weapons and training.


That isn't going to happen and you fundamentally misunderstand both the nature of Hezbollah, and its relationship to Iran and Syria. Hezbollah is not an Iranian invention, nor does it take its orders from Iran or Syria; it's an organization that arose spontaneously in response to Israel's involvement in helping to instigate and then perpetuating the Lebanese Civil War. Its specific goal is and has always been to kick and keep them out of Lebanon. Iran first began giving support to Hezbollah to undermine the Israeli campaign in Lebanon, then continued working with them as a convenient ally along the Mediterranean coast. During the period when Syria controlled Lebanon they tolerated the continued existence of Hezbollah for similar reasons; Hezbollah's forces acted as a buffer along the Israeli border in case of attack and they drew Israeli forces and attention away from Golan. While Hezbollah has helped Iran achieve certain objectives in the region it has at all times set its own goals and decided its own policies; it is a client of Iran, not a puppet.

How would Hezbollah, an organization primarily concerned with and operating out of Lebanon justify attacking Turkey over Syria; a widely despised ex-invader? What populations in Turkey would help and hide them as they carried out such a campaign? How would its international supporters react to it attacking a stable, prosperous, Islamic democracy in support of a godless, Baathist(the Baathists were originally a communist movement, btw) dictatorship? For that matter, why would Iran want to attack Turkey when Turkey has been one of the central voices among the rising states (Brazil, Turkey, China, ect) defending Iran's right to a peaceful nuclear program?
 
2012-09-07 11:55:23 AM

Canton: Heron: I'm not writing to defend Assad, but bombings like this were pretty rare before we started teaching the rebels how to build, conceal, and deploy this manner of explosive. In fact before, say, this May or June, I hadn't heard of a car-bombing in Syria for 20 years or more.

Okay, point taken. I did mean the Middle East as a whole, not Syria in particular, but I am probably wrong about that, too. (Although, at this point hearing about a car bomb in the Middle East is always sad but no longer shocking.)


Well yeah, its always sad to hear about this stuff. Even when the person hit is some despicable monster, there's always the innocent folks in the wrong place and the wrong time to consider.
 
2012-09-07 11:57:37 AM
That shameless hussy Israel, waving it's democratic, tolerant, free society in the faces of all those intolerant barbarians!! Destroy Israel! It's making the Arabs look bad!!
 
2012-09-07 11:57:38 AM

ArkPanda: Hussein, Assad, Gaddafi, etc.were very good at keeping a lid on things, usually by shooting whatever was in the pot, but they did it


The problem is that eventually the lid blows off. The whole "Lawful Evil vs Neutral Chaotic" stuff, too simple for such a complex group of societies. It doesn't map to Western paradigms. And throw in external parties and their interests and influences for good measure.
 
2012-09-07 11:58:21 AM
If it's anti-semitic to think that the nation of Israel is a failed experiment, then I guess I'm anti-semitic.
 
2012-09-07 11:59:15 AM

Magorn: You ARE aware that Paul Wolfowitz, has openly said that we went to war with Iraq to help Israel and that the WMDS thing was given as the justification for the war "For bureaucratic reasons" yes?


Funny how that worked. Israel told them they were attacking the wrong enemy. I guess the Wolfowitzes of the world were just a little arrogant there. "Just shut up and let us help you."
 
2012-09-07 11:59:17 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Isn't this a good thing? Weren't we just talking about using force against Syria? Let them handle it now.


My brutha from anotha mutha. I see nothing wrong with letting the Arabs straighten this out.
 
2012-09-07 12:00:41 PM
If Russia dispatches warships to Syria again in response, this situation could escalate pretty damn quickly.
 
2012-09-07 12:01:20 PM

Crewmannumber6: If it's anti-semitic to think that the nation of Israel is a failed experiment, then I guess I'm anti-semitic.


an experiment in what exactly?
 
2012-09-07 12:04:39 PM

zedster: Crewmannumber6: If it's anti-semitic to think that the nation of Israel is a failed experiment, then I guess I'm anti-semitic.

an experiment in what exactly?


Nation building
 
2012-09-07 12:05:34 PM

Heron: How would Hezbollah, an organization primarily concerned with and operating out of Lebanon justify attacking Turkey over Syria; a widely despised ex-invader? What populations in Turkey would help and hide them as they carried out such a campaign? How would its international supporters react to it attacking a stable, prosperous, Islamic democracy in support of a godless, Baathist(the Baathists were originally a communist movement, btw) dictatorship? For that matter, why would Iran want to attack Turkey when Turkey has been one of the central voices among the rising states (Brazil, Turkey, China, ect) defending Iran's right to a peaceful nuclear program?


In general I agree with your analysis, but I could see Hezbollah doing something to oppose Turkey in this. They would be defending a funding source, and although Turkey is islamic, it is also generally secular and a historic supporter of Israel. The fact that an opponent is Islamic has never been a bar to attacks in the past; I think you overestimate the importance of this fact, particularly in the case of Turkey. The question is, what would Hezbollah have to gain by attacking Turkey? However, I still question the report that is the basis of all this speculation. I have my doubts that Turkey has taken any steps to organize the Syrian rebels.
 
2012-09-07 12:06:48 PM

Crewmannumber6: zedster: Crewmannumber6: If it's anti-semitic to think that the nation of Israel is a failed experiment, then I guess I'm anti-semitic.

an experiment in what exactly?

Nation building


Last time I checked, it was still there, and a far more successful nation than many others.
 
2012-09-07 12:06:48 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Are you referring to the WMD that SH sent them for safekeeping and that Georgie couldn't find in Iraq?



Holy shiat, people. We found a gullible right winger who still believes this story. Should we freeze him and store him for future generations to gawk at? This story has been repeatedly debunked. The neocons are just trying to drum it up again so they can retroactively justify their complete failure with the Iraq War. History books have been written, dude. Iraqi WMDs were a farking lie. Do you think it's a coincidence that we're suddenly talking about Syria's alleged WMD stockpile and tracing it back to this Iraq WMD meme? Who do you think is driving these stories? The usual right wing mouthpieces have received their marching orders and are spreading the bullshiat, right on schedule.
 
2012-09-07 12:09:25 PM

AcneVulgaris: Eapoe6: If you had a friend who kept getting in fights, how many fights would have to take place before you took a look at your friend's behavior?

If your friend is jewish, that would be anti-semitism.


If you had a friend that kept getting attacked for simply existing, even after he repeatedly thrashed his attackers, wouldn't you think there is something wrong with his attackers?
 
2012-09-07 12:10:15 PM

used39: You know what


WHAT YOU SAY!!!
 
2012-09-07 12:14:02 PM

WizardofToast: Alright, which terrorist set us up the bomb?


"up us"
/peeve
 
2012-09-07 12:14:05 PM

YixilTesiphon: Is this a trustworthy source?


Personally, I'm not going to believe it until I see it from a trusted source, like Sorcha Faal
 
2012-09-07 12:15:32 PM

Marcintosh: Sept. 5, an Iron Dome battery was installed in Gush Dan.


I like that but the 's' should look more like an 'f'. Not that I expect you to care, just, well, you know... it would look more authentic.
 
2012-09-07 12:16:53 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Galloping Galoshes: urger: That's great right up until someone attacks Turkey and then NATO goes all Article 5 on their ass.

Hmmm. How to rescue the European economy. War with Syria? (It worked for the US in WWII!) Naah, Syria isn't enough of a fight. Maybe Iran too. That would be a nice mess, what with the large muslim populations of various European countries, and Northern Europe attacking countries on or near the Russian border. Who needs Fulda Gap, we'll use the southern route. Not that I think Russia would react militarily to Turkish troops in Syria...

Perhaps they could round them up and concentrate them in certain areas, oh, call them camps.


It worked before. What could it hurt to try it again?
 
2012-09-07 12:16:56 PM
So, when are the Canadians throwing their Ghost Rock bombs?.

/Obscure?
 
2012-09-07 12:21:12 PM
Late to the Zero Wing party, but you can thank me for this later.
 
2012-09-07 12:22:02 PM
I was told there would be time for Klax.
 
2012-09-07 12:22:20 PM

Weaver95: War. War never changes.


Blast you. Now I want to go replay that game.
 
2012-09-07 12:22:46 PM

mark12A: That shameless hussy Israel, waving it's democratic, tolerant, free society in the faces of all those intolerant barbarians!! Destroy Israel! It's making the Arabs look bad!!


InigoMontoya.jpg
 
2012-09-07 12:26:11 PM

starsrift: starsrift: Revek: Name a A.D. year with no war.

/Bet you have to go way back.

That's actually an interesting question. I think we're farked: Wikipedia's List of Wars.

If you ignore the Byzantine Empire's wars that Wikipedia all lumps ltogether in giant articles spanning centuries... 1047. I think that's a reasonable distinction to make.


1047 - Battle of Val-ès-Dunes: William the Conqueror, with assistance from King Henry I of France, secures control of Normandy by defeating the rebel Norman barons at Caen.

No, there will be war.
 
2012-09-07 12:29:22 PM

Tat'dGreaser: Isn't this a good thing? Weren't we just talking about using force against Syria? Let them handle it now.


Wellt hey are part of NATO so if they are attacked we need to get in, but still I say good for Turkey. this mess is on their doorstep and sitting back isn't going to fix it any faster. Muslims leading the chjarge on it will also diffuse a lot of potential problems that woudl occur if it was the "west" getting involved.

ArkPanda: Galloping Galoshes: trotsky: It wouldn't. If Bashir's government falls, bet your ass it's going to devolve into a religious civil war with the Muslims versus the Alawites, who will fight for their existence. If Israel's smart, they'll stay out of it

This isn't Israel looking for a fight, this is Hezbollah looking to change the subject. I'm sure many Hezbollah see Turkey as a proxy for Israel, even though relations between the two have cooled substantially.

This is the same calculation as Gulf War I, when Iraq bombarded Israel to try to get them do do something that would complicate things.


Winner!!!
 
2012-09-07 12:29:54 PM
As a 38 year old, I cannot remember a time when the anything occurring over there WASN'T under the caption of "CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE EAST". Have they even updated the title graphic?
 
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