keylock71: EyeballKid: No, this is what student loans are like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x188]

?

I went to a state school using a combination of Pell Grants, Student Loans, and money I saved working part-time jobs while I was in school... My loans are all paid off, and I have an education and a career I love.

Having a hard time seeing how that resembles being duped by some hustler and a 3 card monty game, to be honest with you.

Well, there was hiring going on back when you graduated from college? That must have been nice. College intuitions in themselves are a scam, if you consider they go up every year regardless of their real value*.

*_{Unless you're really good at a child's game. Then you can kinda attend classes for free, because you've obviously worked on your scholastic abilities!}

EyeballKid: College intuitions in themselves are a scam

/ftfm
/shiat I'm up early

keylock71: I went to a state school using a combination of Pell Grants, Student Loans, and money I saved working part-time jobs while I was in school... My loans are all paid off, and I have an education and a career I love.

How long ago was this? It's the second one that's causing the problem right now, there are increasing numbers of students graduating with $100k+ in those loans. You can't save that kind of money working part time. It takes decades to pay off - while you're trying to buy a house, often a car, etc...

5th grade math student rejoice and join conspiracy nut jobs in shrugging their shoulders in disbelief.

How could all those Harvard Yale and Princeton egg heads have missed this mathematical disaster?

Are they really stupid, brainwashed or bribed? You decide.

sno man: BronyMedic: America is the laughing stock of the world right now. I firmly believe this.

We have a politician on the House Science Committee who believes that if someone is "legitimately raped" that the body somehow magically produces an as-yet-unnamed compound to "shut down" her reproductive system.

We have people on the House Science Committee who don't believe evolution is real. Who don't believe Climate change, regardless if they believe man causes it or not, is real. We have people on the Senate who believe homeopathy is legitimate.

We are raising our third generation of BET and MTV addicts, people who would rather watch such gems as Jersey Shore than focus on things like Math, Science, and History.

When we have people like this, the fact we have conspiracy theory douchebags who claim that we're one step away from setting up Concentration Camps really shouldn't be suprising.

We're not laughing at you, were laughing with you...
Actually that's not true either, but when you are ready to join the rest of the first world, rather than the third, we're here...

Oh please, like the rest of the First World does not have their elected retards who say stupid shiat. You assume that the rest of the world gives a shiat about anything but our money. Hint they don't. As long as we keep importing their crap, and allowing them to buy our bonds, they don't give a flying fark about who is in charge.

Anyway you want to know what the political ramifications of future shock are? Look at the Republican party, these people aren't all stupid the world is just changing too fast for them to adjust. It is why the end up saying stupid shiat and double down on "family" or "traditional" values. They just can't cope any other way.

Yeah, my TeaTard father in law rants and raves about federal student loans all the time.

Fun Fact: His father broke a cycle of multi-generational poverty and moved his family into the middle class by getting a college education via federally funded GI Bill.

InmanRoshi: via federally funded GI Bill.

To the camps!

I didn't finish RTFA, but I am so sick of these conspiracy theorists getting into office. Democrats should use this example to mobilize our base. If I had heard that my representative said something like this, I would knock on 1000 doors to make sure EVERYONE knew he said that. This man should not see another term in office.

/Maybe I am just Grumpy and Sleepy today
//tomorrow I will be Sneezy
///day afterPrez. O wins another term, I will be Happy
////Do I owe Disney any money now?

MFAWG: dookdookdook: THIS is how you Godwin a debate without ending up sounding like a douchebag:

South Carolina Democratic Party Chairman Dick Harpootlian compared South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) to Hitler's mistress on Wednesday, The State reports. "She was down in the bunker a la Eva Braun," Harpootlian said, according to The State.

In an interview with CNN on Wednesday evening, Harpootlian said he won't be apologizing for his comments.

"Hell no. What am I apologizing for?," he told CNN. "This is fake. Nikki Haley is feigning this. There is not a sincere bone in her body."

"I wasn't trying to insinuate that Nikki was a Nazi," Harpootlian continued. "I was saying that she was hanging out in an insular bunker in Charlotte when she won't give access to the press here in South Carolina ... So she has some hurt feelings? I didn't know she had feelings."

No, he sounds like a douchebag too. It's not that I disagree with the sentiment, but he could have made the point better.

I agree. But, Harpootlian isn't an "elected official." He represents the NC democrats, but not the general public. I expect Reince Priebus and the like to say partisan things. However, I expect our elected officials to not be nutjob crazy.

sno man: We're not laughing at you, were laughing with you...
Actually that's not true either, but when you are ready to join the rest of the first world, rather than the third, we're here...

We want to join but these GOP thugs are holding us back.

In the video he keeps quoting Article I Section 8, which is the enumerated powers of congress. He apparently thinks only the list in Section 8 are the powers of congress. He obviously is forgetting the last one, "To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

So to promote the general welfare is also a power.

Glad we spent 100 posts here ridiculing the GOP instead of discussing the massive problem that student loans have become. A trillion dollars in debt to produce a generation of people with either no skills or skills that can be done cheaper overseas. And hell, when the necessary defense cuts come through, those engineering/math jobs might not be so available either.

But no, let's keep laughing at the GOP. We're so much better than they are.

MattStafford: Glad we spent 100 posts here ridiculing the GOP instead of discussing the massive problem that student loans have become. A trillion dollars in debt to produce a generation of people with either no skills or skills that can be done cheaper overseas. And hell, when the necessary defense cuts come through, those engineering/math jobs might not be so available either.

Is that really an issue of student loans though rather than free trade and the comparative cost of living between third world and first world countries? Most colleges and universities in the US do a decent job providing higher education, which is why so many foreigners come to our schools to learn (the for-profit schools need to die though). The main issue is how to better distribute the cost of education so it is more affordable while still giving schools the funding to educate ever larger numbers of students.

Gwyrddu: The main issue is how to better distribute the cost of education so it is more affordable while still giving schools the funding to educate ever larger numbers of students.

GET.
RID.
OF.
ATHLETIC.
DEPARTMENTS.

coeyagi: But seriously, the solution is obviously to cut funding or raise interest rates. When keeping the status quo from getting worse if all you have time to do thanks to the know-nothings in the GOP, what do you expect? Also, I liked your idea for fixing it. No, the other. Nope, not that either. The other one. Yeah, that one. You hit the nail right on the head.

"When keeping the status quo from getting worse if all you have time to do thanks to the know-nothings in the GOP, what do you expect?"

That sentence appears to be missing something.

Solution? There is no solution. We're farked. My solution is some sort of debt jubilee, which would crush our economy. This isn't a situation you can get out of except through some extremely painful measures.

keylock71: Received my BA in '95 (UMass Amherst). I spent two years at a local community college prior to that to get all my core classes done (Pell Grants covered those two years for the most part).

From what I understand, things have changed quite a bit in the last 7 years.

I didn't own a car until I was well into my 30s or a home until I was almost 40.

By that measure, I'm somewhat more successful. Subtract 10 years from both of those. I have my degree now, but I didn't when I got my current job, and it doesn't require a degree(though they like it).

The point is, I didn't go to a high price University and I used a local community college to finish my core classes before transferring to a 4 year school. I had jobs the entire time I was in school, and while they certainly didn't pay enough to pay for my education, they were great ways to pay rent, buy books, etc..

And you went through it the cheap way - there are lots that don't. Not having the life experience, not all know HOW to do it the cheap way.

Gwyrddu: Is that really an issue of student loans though rather than free trade and the comparative cost of living between third world and first world countries? Most colleges and universities in the US do a decent job providing higher education, which is why so many foreigners come to our schools to learn (the for-profit schools need to die though). The main issue is how to better distribute the cost of education so it is more affordable while still giving schools the funding to educate ever larger numbers of students

Sure, there is the issue that we are in a globalized economy and are forced to compete with human capital that can live off of a far lower wage.

Our issue is trying to give every kid a college education. Not every kid needs to go to college. There should not be a stigma on not going to college, yet we've created one through our public education system and government policies. Take a look at some European school systems. They have different tracks for different students [I know we do as well, but ours (at least mine) carry a bad stigma, and are looked down upon]. This idea that we need to send every kid to school, even if they are majoring in underwater basket weaving is completely idiotic.

47 is the new 42: Chimperror2: coeyagi: I was unaware the constitution prohibited the government from getting involved in student loans. Who knew?

The constitution doesn't prohibit federal government, it enables it. Items not enabled are reserved to the states. Some people think the commerce clause for trade between states enables everything and anything. Who knew?



The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

I think making sure our citizens have the opportunity to be educated at all levels is providing for the general welfare of the United States.

Annnnnnnnnnnd. No. That;s why they never ask what you think.. Go look it up. Not what you think it means and there is over 200 years of legal opinion to back it up. While your at it, you can look up the justification for student loan laws. "General welfare" is not there. Powers are expressly enumerated not drawn from the preamble, Even when primary and secondary schools became "free" it wasn't the feds running it and funding it.

EyeballKid: GET. RID. OF. ATHLETIC. DEPARTMENTS.

You know, I have to wonder: How did we, from like the '50s-'80s manage to provide both a quality education AND have athletic departments? There's always the problem when an athletic department 'takes over' and consumes too much resources, but I think that a proper athletic department is good for a school.

Of course, at that point the 'athletic department' is more running a 'PT program', of which schools that eliminated it in favor of more classes found that they didn't increase academic performance, indeed they suffered increased disciplinary problems, and vice versa with instituting exercise programs - academic performance often INCREASED, while disciplinary problems dropped like a stone. That's before you figure in better health, fewer missed days, etc...

MattStafford: Our issue is trying to give every kid a college education. Not every kid needs to go to college. There should not be a stigma on not going to college, yet we've created one through our public education system and government policies. Take a look at some European school systems. They have different tracks for different students [I know we do as well, but ours (at least mine) carry a bad stigma, and are looked down upon]. This idea that we need to send every kid to school, even if they are majoring in underwater basket weaving is completely idiotic.

Well our number one government employer, the military doesn't require a college education, and that is a pretty well respected career in most but not all social circles. I don't know what you expect government to do in this regard, increasing number of jobs in the US do need some post-secondary education, and they aren't responsible for whatever stigma is attached to educational choices or parental expectations for that matter. Whether any student chooses to go to college or not, the option to go to college should be there assuming the student is capable of learning in a college environment (which is most people).

MattStafford: Glad we spent 100 posts here ridiculing the GOP instead of discussing the massive problem that student loans have become. A trillion dollars in debt to produce a generation of people with either no skills or skills that can be done cheaper overseas. And hell, when the necessary defense cuts come through, those engineering/math jobs might not be so available either.

But no, let's keep laughing at the GOP. We're so much better than they are.

So vote Republican and spend that trillion dollars sending those kids off to make war on Iran, instead? Good plan.

The massive amounts of private debt people are being stuck with is a slippery slope, but I'm thinking we're headed more towards something resembling the French Revolution than anything else.

EyeballKid: Well, there was hiring going on back when you graduated from college? That must have been nice. College intuitions in themselves are a scam, if you consider they go up every year regardless of their real value*.

That doesn't make them a scam, and that everyone that goes to college doesn't benefit financially, and in fact can lose out a lot, also doesn't suggest that. In an open market (and making the assumption it cannot achieve close to perfect competition) the price of education would rise to just under the risk adjusted long term average financial benefit of what they are selling - and this could even mean more than half of people going to college could lose out financially from doing so, as long as enough students won big enough to make it a "good bet".

Of course most countries realise that to compete in a modern global economy, subsidizing and/or regulating pricing of education to cause an economic oversupply tends to be better in the long term than leaving the market to itself, as it leads to a relatively highly skilled, well educated populace that attracts and develops the sort of high value high skilled industries that pay lots of tax and helps with strengthening exports/reducing imports and other beneficial things that outweigh the costs (both direct and the opportunity costs from having a wealthier education sector to tax, etc.)

Gwyrddu: Well our number one government employer, the military doesn't require a college education, and that is a pretty well respected career in most but not all social circles.

And the engineers that build the tools that military uses?

Gwyrddu: increasing number of jobs in the US do need some post-secondary education

Because of the education they receive in college, or because a college degree is becoming standard. I would suggest the latter. As the government sends more and more people to college, a college degree is worth less and less.

Gwyrddu: and they aren't responsible for whatever stigma is attached to educational choices or parental expectations for that matter.

You don't think the government promotes college education? They say in speeches that they are trying to get as many kids to go to college as possible, and that everyone should receive a college education. You don't think that creates a stigma against those that don't want to go?

Gwyrddu: Whether any student chooses to go to college or not, the option to go to college should be there assuming the student is capable of learning in a college environment (which is most people).

Which is part of the problem. College should not be easy. Not everyone should be able to go to college. The vast majority of jobs out there do not require a college education (they might require the degree, but that is different). We shouldn't dumb down college so everyone can go.

Trapper439: So vote Republican and spend that trillion dollars sending those kids off to make war on Iran, instead? Good plan.

Yeah, that is exactly what I advocate. Oh wait, I think the debt being piled up by the military is just as big of an issue as any other debt on unproductive ventures, and is morally reprehensible to boot. Maybe if you stopped being a partisan farkhead and actually looked at the problems facing this country than just assuming your team is right and anyone who disagrees with you is on the other team and is wrong, we might get something done.

Lets see:

Loan lots of money to just about anybody without reguard to their ability to repay - Check

Little or no over site of how they spend the money - Check

No way this is could to lead to another giant debit crisis requiring the Government to bail out finincial instutions who should have know better, transfering money from those who were responsible to those who were not. No way that could happen.

/10 years or less to the college debt bailout.

Trapper439:
So vote Republican and spend that trillion dollars sending those kids off to make war on Iran, instead? Good plan.


W may have started the wars but why is spending trippled under Obama? 

Link

pdee: Lets see:

Loan lots of money to just about anybody without reguard to their ability to repay - Check

Little or no over site of how they spend the money - Check

No way this is could to lead to another giant debit crisis requiring the Government to bail out finincial instutions who should have know better, transfering money from those who were responsible to those who were not. No way that could happen.

/10 years or less to the college debt bailout.

Should have been done before the banks' bailout, and would have cost less. Oh, if only college loan debtors could have bought a cabinet position and several House/Senate members like the banks did!!

Gwyrddu: Well our number one government employer, the military doesn't require a college education

It's one of the larger employers, yes, but I figure that it isn't the largest. The DoD has dwindled to 773k, 2,777k non-military employees.source.

For every military member, you have ~3 non-military.

keylock71: I don't know what the solution is, honestly... All I know is I've benefited in my life from things like Federal student loans and grants, and I'd like the generations of lower middle class kids coming after me to benefit from those things, as well.

The problem that I see is that college education is a bit like home loans - people don't buy what they can afford, they buy what they can get a loan for. And there's plenty of colleges willing to charge what students are able to get a loan for. We've pushed college education to the point that, in some ways, we have too many college grads - they're now working jobs that shouldn't need a college education and are being paid accordingly crappy. It's basic economics - increasing supply(college) gets more expensive per unit after a certain point, while increased supply results in lower prices on the demand side(no shortage).

Basically: Almost no college grads; they can actually be almost free; but will demand a heavy premium in the job market. If you want everybody to be a 'college grad', it's going to cost huge amounts of money, and a college education becomes almost meaningless as a job skill.

Colleges, for all their protests, haven't been controlling costs like they realistically should have been able to.

Lorelle: EvilRacistNaziFascist: What the senator in TFA was saying -- clumsily expressed tho' it may have been -- blah blah blah longwinded weak response in defense of nutbag Congressman

Nah. What he said is this:

"Not that it's not a good idea to give students loans; it certainly is a good idea to give them loans. But if you can ignore the Constitution to do something good today, tomorrow you will be ignoring the Constitution to do something bad. You could. There are more people in our, in America today of German ancestry than any other [inaudible]. The Holocaust that occurred in Germany - how in the heck could that happen? And when you start down the wrong road, it can be a very slippery slope."

I heard it loud and clear right here.

All I'm reading is that Americans of German ancestry can't be trusted and should be locked up otherwise we'll turn into Nazi Germany. It's in their genes.

Firethorn: Colleges, for all their protests, haven't been controlling costs like they realistically should have been able to.

Why would they want to control costs? It has been shown that whatever they raise their tuition to, government will cover the loans, so why worry?

MattStafford: Firethorn: Colleges, for all their protests, haven't been controlling costs like they realistically should have been able to.

Why would they want to control costs? It has been shown that whatever they raise their tuition to, government will cover the loans, so why worry?

Exactly. Which is why the only real way to control college costs will be to restrict the availability of loans. That will mean fewer college attendees; but they'll have a better prospect of a job after graduation and more sustainable loan expenses when they graduate.

I'm fond of the idea of more technical schools and apprenticeships.

MattStafford: Gwyrddu: Well our number one government employer, the military doesn't require a college education, and that is a pretty well respected career in most but not all social circles.

And the engineers that build the tools that military uses?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Do you expect people to become engineers without a higher education.


Because of the education they receive in college, or because a college degree is becoming standard. I would suggest the latter. As the government sends more and more people to college, a college degree is worth less and less.

It's both. Civilization is becoming more intricate and simple tasks are ever easier to automate, leaving the tasks that require more education for human employees. At the same time, good paying jobs are becoming scarcer for a number of reasons which allows businesses to become more picky. Business is also terrible at evaluating the true worth of candidates, which makes them more likely to weed out resumes based on education level as a simple shortcut. None of these problems would really be solved by cutting back on college education by the way, it would most likely just benefit the people with the most money to put people through college.

You don't think the government promotes college education? They say in speeches that they are trying to get as many kids to go to college as possible, and that everyone should receive a college education. You don't think that creates a stigma against those that don't want to go?

The stigma would still exist whether the government said anything about it or not. The government is just responding to the demands of employers and the international marketplace which is calling on a more educated workforce.

Which is part of the problem. College should not be easy. Not everyone should be able to go to college. The vast majority of jobs out there do not require a college education (they might require the degree, but that is different). We shouldn't dumb down college so everyone can go.

Nobody is saying to dumb down colleges or loosen academic requirements. The question is how to loosen monetary requirements of college so the US becomes more of a meritocracy and less a plutocratic society. The only part of higher education that should be academically easy to get into are community colleges, which can act as a feeder to prepare students for more academically challenging programs elsewhere even if their primary education failed to do so.

Firethorn: Exactly. Which is why the only real way to control college costs will be to restrict the availability of loans. That will mean fewer college attendees; but they'll have a better prospect of a job after graduation and more sustainable loan expenses when they graduate.

Private loans would just fill in the need and balloon the student debt crisis even further. Also, I don't think their job prospects of college graduates wouldn't be as good as you think. Education can also give you the tools to create jobs and not just fill them. A college graduate is still better off in Silicon Valley for example than in Mississippi, even if the latter has much fewer college graduates to compete with.

BronyMedic:
We are raising our third generation of BET and MTV addicts, people who would rather watch such gems as Jersey Shore than focus on things like Math, Science, and History.

When we have people like this, the fact we have conspiracy theory douchebags who claim that we're one step away from setting up Concentration Camps really shouldn't be suprising.

You spend far too much time looking down your nose on people on the internet. This is patently false, crap like this has ALWAYS existed in some form or another, and in fact intelligence scores have consistently risen from generation to generation. And as for that other part that I'm quoting, every government has their whackjobs, PARTICULARLY the English, which most educated Brits will point out.

EvilRacistNaziFascist: BronyMedic: America is the laughing stock of the world right now. I firmly believe this.

You're a grown adult who watches a kids' show about magic ponies. Who are you to complain about being a laughing stock?

ERNF, you might want to read up on the genetic fallacy.

Empty Matchbook: You spend far too much time looking down your nose on people on the internet. This is patently false, crap like this has ALWAYS existed in some form or another, and in fact intelligence scores have consistently risen from generation to generation.

Uh, you might want to check your facts on that.

Empty Matchbook: And as for that other part that I'm quoting, every government has their whackjobs, PARTICULARLY the English, which most educated Brits will point out.

Last I checked, willful stupidity wasn't a celebrated past-time of the British people. The Republican Party, and to a lesser extent - the Democratic Party - both cherish it.

Gwyrddu: Private loans would just fill in the need and balloon the student debt crisis even further.

Private loans wouldn't be a problem if you make them like unsecured debt in a bankruptcy; they'd provide proper rigor because otherwise they'd lose their money. It was partially government involvement that caused the home loan crisis(remember, Fannie May and Freddie Mac were set up by the government)

Also, I don't think their job prospects of college graduates wouldn't be as good as you think. Education can also give you the tools to create jobs and not just fill them. A college graduate is still better off in Silicon Valley for example than in Mississippi, even if the latter has much fewer college graduates to compete with.

Silicon Valley doesn't exist in a vacuum though; neither does Mississippi though. Silicon Valley is a centralized location for employing college grads; much like what universities themselves do. It wouldn't exist as it does without the world market. If Mississippi WAS the world market, a Silicon Valley equivalent would pop up within it. For that matter, it doesn't just request college grads; those who truly make it big - Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and numerous others are all college dropouts. Even the college grads it takes is a very specific subset of the college grad section - and one can argue that the types of people they recruit are amongst the first to go to college. IE we aren't getting that many more of them if we send *everyone*. For that matter, if we send everyone, suddenly plumbers, machinists, electricians, wood workers, would be worth their weight in gold.

It's all about balance. It can be quite tricky, balancing human talent and education with the job market. Some career fields, normally those hard for most humans, are perpetually in demand with low single digit unemployment. Others require practically nothing and has applicants coming out their ears. Managing our labor pool is both a policy and technological issue(yes, management is ultimately a technology, or at least should be).

BronyMedic: Empty Matchbook: You spend far too much time looking down your nose on people on the internet. This is patently false, crap like this has ALWAYS existed in some form or another, and in fact intelligence scores have consistently risen from generation to generation.

Uh, you might want to check your facts on that.

Hey! So might you! Link And the link that you pointed to admits that it's own methodology has gaping holes (as does mine, I'm sure), so I guess we're at a zero-sum here.

Empty Matchbook: And as for that other part that I'm quoting, every government has their whackjobs, PARTICULARLY the English, which most educated Brits will point out.

Last I checked, willful stupidity wasn't a celebrated past-time of the British people. The Republican Party, and to a lesser extent - the Democratic Party - both cherish it.

I'll agree with one party actively encouraging, feeding on stupidity, and electing stupidity (and a chunk of the country openly celebrating it) but that doesn't cancel out whackjobs overseas. And it makes for better television, so it tends to get played up.