If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Fox News)   Israel waits on President Barack Obama to take a tough public position on Iran's nuclear program - and waits and waits and waits some more   (foxnews.com) divider line 209
    More: Obvious, obama, Iran, Israelis, United States, Iranian nuclear program, military intelligences, Israeli attack, Iranian nuclear  
•       •       •

3300 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Sep 2012 at 12:32 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



209 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-09-05 08:07:16 AM
I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.
 
2012-09-05 08:14:44 AM
Can we please stop sending money to Israel and let them fight their wars alone?
 
2012-09-05 08:41:41 AM
Try holding your breath
 
2012-09-05 08:48:15 AM
For once can we stop letting Israel dictate our foreign policies in the ME and tell them to fight their own battles? Christ knows we send them enough money to do it. We don't have to keep sending them US bodies as well.
 
2012-09-05 08:50:50 AM
FOX still pretending that the problem with US Israel relations is that the US Dems are too mean to Israel?

Yeah, that'll fly.

After Romney basically told Beebs he had his back in case Israel wanted to bomb Iran I'd think most people would find that more troubling.
 
2012-09-05 08:52:30 AM
Then I guess Israel might want to do something about that. They've done it before, they can do it again.

Of course, they might have to do it alone, and without help, but I'm sure that they're very bootstrappy and won't need no UN or the US to back them up...
 
2012-09-05 08:53:31 AM

Lunaville: I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.


Agreed. I was listening to NPR a couple of days ago, and apparently Israel is becoming far more a political issue than it has been in the past. Many Israelis do not see this as a good thing. And why would they? If they force themselves to be a political issue, it could very well backlash against them.

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind. All the added issues of the eternal Israel/Palestine war and Israel being a borderline theocracy just reinforces my opinion.
 
2012-09-05 09:17:04 AM
Israel, convinced that Iran isn't taking seriously U.S. vows to block it from acquiring nuclear weapons, believes that time to stop the Iranians is quickly running out.


Here's part of a story from 2000...

The C.I.A. began to warn policy makers nearly a decade ago that Iran was likely to have nuclear weapons around the turn of the century. Now that the new century has arrived, the agency is offering a cautious warning that it can no longer be sure whether Iran has made more progress on its atomic program than previously believed.

Senior Clinton administration officials have tried to play down the significance of the C.I.A.'s new assessment
 
2012-09-05 09:19:45 AM
Here's part of a NY Times story from 1995...

Iran is much closer to producing nuclear weapons than previously thought, and could be less than five years away from having an atomic bomb, several senior American and Israeli officials say.

"The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.
 
2012-09-05 09:21:28 AM

Cythraul: Lunaville: I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.

Agreed. I was listening to NPR a couple of days ago, and apparently Israel is becoming far more a political issue than it has been in the past. Many Israelis do not see this as a good thing. And why would they? If they force themselves to be a political issue, it could very well backlash against them.

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind. All the added issues of the eternal Israel/Palestine war and Israel being a borderline theocracy just reinforces my opinion.


how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?

I am exceptionally happy that Obama does not lock-step with Israel like so many of his predecessors have. It should not be US policy to blindly write checks to support another country, particularly one with such an antagonistic past as Israel has.

Take away the religion and the ginned up "we owe Israel after what Europe did to the Jews 4 generations ago" and what you have is one angry little country always at war with its neighbors wanting the USA to support it no matter what. That's not right.

Obama is courageous to stand up to the phony neocon arguments and the leftover cold war noise. Its predictable the neocons would ratchet up said noise, its all they have.
 
2012-09-05 09:23:56 AM
Here's part of a story from the early 80s...

A report that Iran might be building atomic weapons has again set off nuclear nervousness over the Middle East, where heavily armed nations edge closer year by year to obtaining "The Bomb"
Lewiston Daily Sun - May 5, 1984
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-09-05 09:24:47 AM
Good. We need to be less involved in the Middle East, not more.
 
2012-09-05 09:28:47 AM
Good, let them wait.
 
2012-09-05 09:29:56 AM
As a concerned USA citizen that wants Israel, Iran and all the other middle eastern countries to live in peace and security, let me say this- Israel, go screw yourself. Iran having a nuclear weapon is no more a threat to you than Pakistan having one. The Iranians know that should they ever attack Israel with a nuke, the Israelis would wipe out every Iranian city. Iran may be a lot of things, but they aren't suicidal.
 
2012-09-05 09:34:05 AM

Headso: Here's part of a NY Times story from 1995...

Iran is much closer to producing nuclear weapons than previously thought, and could be less than five years away from having an atomic bomb, several senior American and Israeli officials say.

"The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.


Even if the did manage to make a bomb, it's not like they're the USSR with thousands of them and ICBMs to put them on. At most they could do 1/10 the damage done in any of the recent conventional wars around there and they have incentive not to. They know they would be hammered into the earth if they ever did. If they even want a bomb, they only want it for dick-waving purposes.

Israel is clearly the bad guy here. I'm more worried about them using their nucs (hypocrisy, anyone?) than Iran.
 
2012-09-05 09:37:38 AM
Okay, I thought I'd replied to Cythraul and Generation D. If a comment about Israel turns up in a thread about a deer frolicking in an IHOP, that would be me.

I guess I'll try to remember it.

At risk of sounding like I think my version of Christianity is THE version of Christianity, I suspect some people who identify as fundamentalist Christians are not truly concerned about what is best for Israel. I think they want to sacrifice Israel to a war that they believe will induce the second coming of Christ.

The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist. In particular, I am moved by accounts of Jewish refugees, particularly Jewish children, who were denied admission to the United States during the holocaust. I find it ironic that a nation so many of our citizens like to label a "Christian" nation acted in such an un-Christian manner. (I don't approve of labeling the USA a Christian nation. I think all citizens regardless of faith or lack thereof are equally citizens and should be equally recognized.) I wonder how many of the fundamentalists that now purport to support Israel, right or wrong, would have cried out against accepting Jewish refugees when their need was greatest?

I suspect that ordinary, perhaps relatively powerless, Israeli citizens are have begun to be manipulated, perhaps abused, by a right wing party that puts the desires of its' leaders above the long-term best interests of the nation and its' people as a whole.

That said, I am hardly an expert on Israel. I try to understand the issues surrounding Israel as best I can while bearing in mind my own relative ignorance.
 
2012-09-05 09:37:59 AM

Generation_D: how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?


I'm not sure what you mean by these questions. How many Jewish lobbyists have the ear of NPR enough to influence it?

The NPR piece I heard wasn't exactly painting the increasing importance of the U.S, Israel relations within the political campaign environment as a good thing. But then, it's sometimes hard to tell since NPR doesn't really try to promote an opinion.

And I don't think any over-thinking is being done here. With the increasing tensions between the U.S./Israel and Iran, I think it's a pretty important issue that deserves some serious consideration.
 
2012-09-05 09:41:13 AM
Wait, Barack Obama is the president of what country?
 
2012-09-05 09:44:56 AM
Feeling so vulnerable, Israel needs strong assurances from its key ally, said Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations and confidant of Netanyahu.

"We have to hear something a lot more concrete, a lot more public from the U.S., which is the leader of free world. What is it going to do?" Gold told the Army Radio station.


It's going to tell you to go f*ck yourself, Dore Gold.
 
2012-09-05 09:47:26 AM

Cythraul: Generation_D: how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?

I'm not sure what you mean by these questions. How many Jewish lobbyists have the ear of NPR enough to influence it?

The NPR piece I heard wasn't exactly painting the increasing importance of the U.S, Israel relations within the political campaign environment as a good thing. But then, it's sometimes hard to tell since NPR doesn't really try to promote an opinion.

And I don't think any over-thinking is being done here. With the increasing tensions between the U.S./Israel and Iran, I think it's a pretty important issue that deserves some serious consideration.


I think I get what he is saying. Sometimes there develops what could be described as an "American point of view".

I'm struggling to come up with a decent example. I'll go with the Revolutionary War. I think it can be safely asserted that the American point of view on the Revolutionary War is that it was a necessary war. Without it, we would not have gained our independence from England and we would not have the constitutional protections we now enjoy. Rarely, is it suggested that we might have followed the course of, for instance, Canada.

I don't think NPR is the place you would go to hear that the Revolutionary war was not truly necessary; that America could have evolved to be very much as it is today without the war. It just isn't going to stray that far from the "American point of view".

Does that make sense? Generation D, please, correct me if I have misunderstood you. I do not want to put unwanted words into your mouth.
 
2012-09-05 09:51:33 AM

what_now: Wait, Barack Obama is the president of what country?


The United States of Being At Israel's Beck And Call.
 
2012-09-05 09:51:53 AM
Feeling so vulnerable, Israel needs strong assurances from its key ally, said Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations and confidant of Netanyahu.

"We have to hear something a lot more concrete, a lot more public from the U.S., which is the leader of free world. What is it going to do?" Gold told the Army Radio station.


Israel: America's clingy, needy girlfriend.

In bed, a chattering Israel later asked a silent America "What are you thinking about?" and followed up with "Why don't you look in my eyes when we have sex?"
 
2012-09-05 10:21:23 AM
 
2012-09-05 10:23:35 AM
 
2012-09-05 10:27:38 AM

Mentat: Guys, Obama's got this


That's encouraging. Thanks for posting that link.
 
2012-09-05 10:28:18 AM

Mentat: Guys, Obama's got this


I'm a bit disappointed he's letting them save face, although I guess there are election concerns. Israel needs to be reminded that the tail does not wag the dog, and the day when our unequivocal support of them turns into more of a liability than an asset to our elected officials (as the old and evangelical die off to be replaced by the more secular, younger generation) is fast approaching. They're going to have to learn how to play nice with others instead of running off to mommy all the time.
 
2012-09-05 10:31:52 AM
When Israel was a little kid didn't his mom tell him that when someone doesn't answer a question, that is an answer itself? That's kind of how it works in the real world.
 
2012-09-05 10:36:59 AM
Dear Israel,
i232.photobucket.com
Sincerely,
Us
 
2012-09-05 10:37:45 AM
Does anybody have a non-FauxNews source for this?

As you know it's unlike Fox news to quote out of context or try to stir something up during an election year.
 
2012-09-05 10:42:40 AM

Lunaville: Okay, I thought I'd replied to Cythraul and Generation D. If a comment about Israel turns up in a thread about a deer frolicking in an IHOP, that would be me.

I guess I'll try to remember it.

At risk of sounding like I think my version of Christianity is THE version of Christianity, I suspect some people who identify as fundamentalist Christians are not truly concerned about what is best for Israel. I think they want to sacrifice Israel to a war that they believe will induce the second coming of Christ.

The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist. In particular, I am moved by accounts of Jewish refugees, particularly Jewish children, who were denied admission to the United States during the holocaust. I find it ironic that a nation so many of our citizens like to label a "Christian" nation acted in such an un-Christian manner. (I don't approve of labeling the USA a Christian nation. I think all citizens regardless of faith or lack thereof are equally citizens and should be equally recognized.) I wonder how many of the fundamentalists that now purport to support Israel, right or wrong, would have cried out against accepting Jewish refugees when their need was greatest?

I suspect that ordinary, perhaps relatively powerless, Israeli citizens are have begun to be manipulated, perhaps abused, by a right wing party that puts the desires of its' leaders above the long-term best interests of the nation and its' people as a whole.

That said, I am hardly an expert on Israel. I try to understand the issues surrounding Israel as best I can while bearing in mind my own relative ignorance.


Except I'm not a fundamentalist Christian.

Except Israel does not get a blank check forever, the Holocaust was 3 generations or 4 ago, at what point do we take the training wheels off Israel and let it sink or swim on its own merit? Why do they get favored nation status, other than some people in New York and Washington think they perpetually deserve to have it.

Here's another way of looking at it: The Europeans living in Israel are all just about gone now. Replacing them are native born Middle Easterners who happen to be Jewish. How many more years does the USA have to be the strong muscle for one middle-eastern religious theocracy fighting a holy war with its neighbors? The European justification is gone, or will be soon. Unless its a blank check for perpetuity to prop up Israel and do its bidding. Which I never signed.
 
2012-09-05 10:45:31 AM

Cythraul: Generation_D: how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?

I'm not sure what you mean by these questions. How many Jewish lobbyists have the ear of NPR enough to influence it?

The NPR piece I heard wasn't exactly painting the increasing importance of the U.S, Israel relations within the political campaign environment as a good thing. But then, it's sometimes hard to tell since NPR doesn't really try to promote an opinion.

And I don't think any over-thinking is being done here. With the increasing tensions between the U.S./Israel and Iran, I think it's a pretty important issue that deserves some serious consideration.


Framing this question as a US concern proves you're still playing 30 yrs ago Henry Kissinger influenced politics. The USA's best interest is very little related to the best interest of Israel. If you remove the "guilt and debt" of World War II and remove any special rights granted to Jews to abuse their neighbors, what actual reason is there for the USA to support Israel over Iran? Israel has no natural resources, Iran does. Thats a pretty big argument in favor of Iran, if anything.

I would prefer the USA stay out of the perpetual cripple-fight the Middle East has for itself and has had for itself throughout history. It was arrogant British foreign policy that installed Israel in the first place. How did we wind up getting stuck with the bill?
 
2012-09-05 10:56:55 AM
bibi wants to nuke tehran. what's new?
 
2012-09-05 10:58:46 AM

sweetmelissa31: Feeling so vulnerable, Israel needs strong assurances from its key ally, said Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations and confidant of Netanyahu.

"We have to hear something a lot more concrete, a lot more public from the U.S., which is the leader of free world. What is it going to do?" Gold told the Army Radio station.

It's going to tell you to go f*ck yourself, Dore Gold.


Woah calm down there Adolphina Hitlerette.
 
2012-09-05 10:59:49 AM

Headso: "The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.


And Iraq can unleash Weapons Of Mass Destruction that will reach the continental US in forty-five minutes!
 
2012-09-05 12:36:09 PM
Bibi is getting desperate. He can't find a way to unwind this without Obama, so he's been reduced to begging for this chit.
 
2012-09-05 12:37:31 PM

Vodka Zombie: Can we please stop sending money to Israel and let them fight their wars alone?


You would leave our fifty-first state out in the cold like that? What's next, Mississippi?
 
2012-09-05 12:38:31 PM

Fark It: No U.S. intelligence agencies see evidence of Iran seeking nuclear weapons

fark Israel.


Seconded. I'm tired of them being the yappie loudmouth standing on the shoulder of the big bruiser.
 
2012-09-05 12:38:46 PM
Hey, Isreal: Fight your own damn wars.

You are as famished for conflict as the enemies you make for yourselves. Don't drag the rest of the world down to your level.
 
2012-09-05 12:39:12 PM
In an alternate dimension, President Obama would say in the DNC: "We will not wage war against Iran, and we will withdraw our military support to Israel, and instead we will focus that same attention into turn Palestine in a sovereign nation".

Then again, this is the same dimension the Old Ones awake when the stars are right, so...
 
2012-09-05 12:42:15 PM

Snarfangel: Vodka Zombie: Can we please stop sending money to Israel and let them fight their wars alone?

You would leave our fifty-first state out in the cold like that? What's next, Mississippi?


Everyone in Israel knows a voter that lives in Florida. If you cut off money to Israel, you would need to cut off the money to Egypt and others. Under the Carter peace agreement, we agreed to pay everyone not to fight.
 
2012-09-05 12:43:25 PM
Submitter: Batshiat Crazy Netanyahoo Network Israel waits on President Barack Obama to take a tough public position be its lapdog on Iran's nuclear program - and waits and waits and waits some more

Fixed that for everyone. Don't confuse a right-wing theocratic government with a fairly complex and diverse nation, Submitter.
 
2012-09-05 12:43:27 PM
Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?
 
2012-09-05 12:43:31 PM

Therion: Headso: "The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.

And Iraq can unleash Weapons Of Mass Destruction that will reach the continental US in forty-five minutes!


SHIAT! I can't even get home from downtown in that amount of time. How will I change into my war clothes?!?! I can't go through the apocalypse in hard-bottom shoes!!
 
2012-09-05 12:43:33 PM

Dinki: As a concerned USA citizen that wants Israel, Iran and all the other middle eastern countries to live in peace and security, let me say this- Israel, go screw yourself. Iran having a nuclear weapon is no more a threat to you than Pakistan having one. The Iranians know that should they ever attack Israel with a nuke, the Israelis would wipe out every Iranian city. Iran may be a lot of things, but they aren't suicidal.


You claim they are not suicidal, but don't you remember how they fought to the last man in the Iran-Iraq War?
 
2012-09-05 12:43:48 PM
What Jew talkin' 'bout Willis?
 
2012-09-05 12:44:35 PM

Lunaville: The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist.


Hey Palestinians, the reason you need to geddout is cuz a bunch of people you have nothing to do with were mean to us this one time.

Yep. I got nothing.


Not really sure what exactly does count as a nation's right to exist. I'm just pretty sure this particular reason is pretty damn sketchy is all.
 
2012-09-05 12:44:45 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I can't go through the apocalypse in hard-bottom shoes!!



Ah, but if they're leather, you can eat them later.
 
2012-09-05 12:45:32 PM
i like peace.
 
2012-09-05 12:45:38 PM
The waiting is the hardest part
every day you get one more yard
you take it on faith, you take it to the heart
the waiting is the hardest part
 
2012-09-05 12:45:42 PM

smitty04: Everyone in Israel knows a voter that lives in Florida. If you cut off money to Israel, you would need to cut off the money to Egypt and others. Under the Carter peace agreement, we agreed to pay everyone not to fight.


i.imgur.com

Throwing money at problems - its the American Way!
 
2012-09-05 12:45:53 PM
Hey Israel... Don't pick fights and expect your friends to fight them for you. It's a great way to lose friends.
 
2012-09-05 12:46:45 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Bibi is getting desperate. He can't find a way to unwind this without Obama, so he's been reduced to begging for this chit.


That. Bibi can't sell the war to Israelis, and he can't sell it to Americans. (Interestingly enough, it's the left in both countries that is anti-war. Did I say " interesting? I meant "unsurprising".)

Iran has been close to the bomb for 20 years now. The Israeli right (notice - Ehud Barak wasn't so keen on it; neither was Rabin) has been pushing for an Iran war for almost as long. The American right has wanted it since 1979.

Bibi knows he can't unilaterally attack Iran - they have China and Russia's protection, as well as being a major oil shipping lane. At this point, it appears he's getting the message that Obama doesn't want war with Iran. Adelson & Co (along with the American right) are pushing for war with Iran, which they'd likely get with Romney (they'd get more sabre-rattling at least, and a unified US/Israel international sabre-rattle).
 
2012-09-05 12:47:03 PM
Israel waits on for President Barack Obama to take a tough public position on Iran's nuclear program

FTFY.

/"waiting on" is for restaurants
 
2012-09-05 12:48:08 PM

puckrock2000: /"waiting on" is for restaurants


Fairly sure that's exactly the sort of relationship Israel thinks it's in with us.
 
2012-09-05 12:48:46 PM
By the time Iran managed to get a somewhat functional and non photoshopped ICBM, we'll likely be on our second generation of somewhat reliable SDI type system. The Flight III Aegis destroyers already show a lot of promise and we'll have them, Japan will have them, and the ROK will have them. Plus possibly more Euro countries if they pull their heads out of their asses. Also we have some promising ground based interception options.

You know what is cheaper than invading every goddamn country that appears to have a functional nuclear reactor and rocketry program? Aegis destroyers and cruisers. Plus they have other uses. Antipiracy platforms, taking out space debris/non functional satellites that poses a threat to things like the ISS, rescuing crews of other ships, etc. You can also use the technology as a possible foundation for asteroid killing weapons which could come in handy one day. If you take the CBOs 2.4 trillion dollar cost for Iraq and spent a quarter of that on Aegis platforms and future R&D for a missile interceptor, we'd be better off from a national security posture.
 
2012-09-05 12:50:01 PM
Time for Israel to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and deal with their own problems.
 
2012-09-05 12:50:14 PM
"The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist."

Ok I am sorry, the Holocaust was a horrible thing. But its not like its been the only attempted genocide in history nor do I believe it was the worst. I think the Old farking Testament have stories of Jews wiping out other Ethnic groups. Its been going on a long time. You don't see people insisting that the Tutsi have their own country do you?
 
2012-09-05 12:51:08 PM
Don't make Israel count to three...One!...TWO!!!...
 
2012-09-05 12:53:08 PM
Despite the fact that 1000's of countries have been overtaken or conquerd, and that every country that exists today had it's borders stolen/given to them from someone other country before them, Israel is the only one who seems to claim the right to a "do-over" and wanted their land back.
 
2012-09-05 12:53:16 PM

Dr Dreidel: That. Bibi can't sell the war to Israelis, and he can't sell it to Americans. (Interestingly enough, it's the left in both countries that is anti-war. Did I say " interesting? I meant "unsurprising".)


====

From Another Article: "All of the past and present heads of the security establishment, the Shin Bet security service and the Mossad are saying 'don't strike,'" Winograd said. "And only Barak and Netanyahu will decide to do so? For what? With all the dangers and everything that is happening - maybe there is another solution?"

Its not just the Israeli left. Pretty much everyone who farked up in the 2006 war and the committee that told everyone how badly they farked up is telling everyone not to go and fark up again. Its more like the rationalists vs. the irrationalists.
 
2012-09-05 12:53:33 PM
I'm sorry...

What exactly has "our staunchest ally" in the Middle East EVER farkING DONE BUT MAKE EVERYONE HATE THE US?

About the only benefit you might argue would be saying that : קהילת המודיעין הישראלית feeds us intelligence from the middle east.

I think Dick Cheney's camping out at the DIA and vetting information there tells you how useful that might be.
 
2012-09-05 12:53:41 PM
U.S. to Jews after the Holocaust: "WE ARE SO SORRY FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU IN THE HOLOCAUST!! WE TOTES WOULD HAVE MADE IT OVER HERE EARLIER IF ONLY WE'D KNOWN!!! WE'LL FIGHT ANYBODY ELSE WHO WANTS A PIECE OF YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR EXISTENCE AND GIVE YOU AS MUCH OF OUR MONEY AS YOU WANT JUST SO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOU MEAN TO US!!!!"

U.S. to African Americans after the Civil War and slavery ended: "F*ck you, n*****r. Get back to work."
 
2012-09-05 12:55:29 PM
Lunaville: The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist.

So that's why there are Armenians occupying, er living in Manitoba. I hear they recently pushed for statehood. Canada's miffed that there will be a country wholly within their borders but, hey. It's Canada, eh?

And of course those survivors of Nanking shacked up in Australia after the war. They don't want to go back to China. Just a little too close to Japan and you never know when Japan will get all looty and rapy on you. Best to have a couple of seas between you and them.

Ukrainians that weren't wiped out by Stalin are demanding the UN give them some turf for past wrongs. Nothing wrong with Ukraine but the South of France is lovely this time of year. Move all of the French out and it will be even lovelier. Call it "New Ukrainia".

And we could go on but no one is guarding the birthday cake. Don't know who it was for but I'm a gonna get me a slice. And I'll be calling the UN and demanding my slice if one of the secretaries say "Hey, that's Accounting's cake." "Bull." I shall reply "My people were denied cake in the last three wars. I deserve a slice. I deserve a slice!"
 
2012-09-05 12:55:30 PM

EyeballKid: U.S. to Jews after the Holocaust: "WE ARE SO SORRY FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU IN THE HOLOCAUST!! WE TOTES WOULD HAVE MADE IT OVER HERE EARLIER IF ONLY WE'D KNOWN!!! WE'LL FIGHT ANYBODY ELSE WHO WANTS A PIECE OF YOU FOR THE REST OF YOUR EXISTENCE AND GIVE YOU AS MUCH OF OUR MONEY AS YOU WANT JUST SO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOU MEAN TO US!!!!"

U.S. to African Americans after the Civil War and slavery ended: "F*ck you, n*****r. Get back to work."


Forty acres and a mullah.
 
2012-09-05 12:56:17 PM

maxheck: What exactly has "our staunchest ally" in the Middle East EVER farkING DONE BUT MAKE EVERYONE HATE THE US?


The saddest part was up until Kermit Roosevelt farked up Iran, Iran had the potential to be the best ally in the Middle East. Although Iran did have a bit of a Soviet lean due to the fact they didn't want to piss off the giant bear just north of them. At the same time though they did worry about the Soviet Union going "Hey, the Iranian SSR would mean we have a warm water port, lets do this thing" so they wanted to be friends with the West.

/our staunchest ally is likely the Egyptian military
//the Turks are pretty solid overall, although they vary from election to election
 
2012-09-05 12:56:26 PM
Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.
 
2012-09-05 12:58:50 PM

Ummon: I think the Old farking Testament have stories of Jews wiping out other Ethnic groups.


And Christians slaughtered millions of everyone during the Crusades and Inquisition - to say nothing of pogroms, forced expulsions, and other illegal-but-tolerated (if not encouraged) behaviors of "benevolent" host countries over the last 1200 years. The OT timeline ends roughly 2500 years ago (and from what I understand, not very consistent with the historical record) - better to not base modern geopolitics on that book.

You don't see people insisting that the Tutsi have their own country do you?

No, but we do see it for Basques, Palestinians, Armenians, Kurds, American Indians, and any number of historically persecuted peoples.

// and DC statehood, but that's worlds different
// sounds like you're pissed the Israelis got what they wanted from the Brits
// the Brits signed over what was legally theirs, the locals got pissed, so Israelis took what was already legally theirs by force
// whether or not Israel "should" be a country, it "is" - so let's work on making them play nice with everyone else
// while also making sure everyone else plays nice
 
2012-09-05 01:01:00 PM

puckrock2000: Israel waits on for President Barack Obama to take a tough public position on Iran's nuclear program

FTFY.

/"waiting on" is for restaurants


recordsleeves.com
 
2012-09-05 01:02:41 PM

Dr Dreidel: // and DC statehood, but that's worlds different


Having to move your ass further up the red line is oppression of the highest order!
 
2012-09-05 01:02:51 PM
If the Israelis feel there's a real threat, then just go ahead and bomb the fark out of Iran. The United States will certainly help you cover your asses. But if you just want the United States to do your dirty work for you, don't biatch and whine if your friend wants to consider its options first. G-d, it's like those pair of Looney Tunes dogs, the big bulldog and the little chihuahua who keeps jumping up and yipping "C'mon Spike, you gonna let him talk like that? Let him have it! Yeah Spike!"
 
2012-09-05 01:09:29 PM

karnal: Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.


I guess in your psychotic "OMG OBAMA SECRET MUSLIM" dreamworld you forgot the part where Obama just signed a bill for yet another $70 bill in defense aid to Israel. What does Israel want from us, FFS? Oh right, the ability to dictate everything we do in the ME, as Romney promised. Well that's insane, sorry.
 
2012-09-05 01:09:49 PM
Is it possible to stop caring so much what Israel thinks?
 
2012-09-05 01:10:03 PM

ha-ha-guy: Dr Dreidel: // and DC statehood, but that's worlds different

Having to move your ass further up the red line is oppression of the highest order!


There's only degrees of difference between the Red Line and Israeli checkpoints.

// half joking
// the red line sucks
 
2012-09-05 01:10:27 PM
"Hey Spike, do yawanna have a war with Iran, Spike? They gots nookular weapons and stuff, Spike!"
angleofreflection.files.wordpress.com
"Awwwwwww, shaddup!" *swat*
 
2012-09-05 01:12:48 PM

Snarfangel: Dinki: As a concerned USA citizen that wants Israel, Iran and all the other middle eastern countries to live in peace and security, let me say this- Israel, go screw yourself. Iran having a nuclear weapon is no more a threat to you than Pakistan having one. The Iranians know that should they ever attack Israel with a nuke, the Israelis would wipe out every Iranian city. Iran may be a lot of things, but they aren't suicidal.

You claim they are not suicidal, but don't you remember how they fought to the last man in the Iran-Iraq War?


In fairness Iran was attacked by Iraq. Defending the homeland is very important for any Citezen. Even france fought on after it was conquered.
 
2012-09-05 01:12:53 PM
Iran has been a couple years away from the bomb for going on a couple of decades, by my recollection.

Perhaps this boogey man has run it's course, and the only people left are the right wing bedwetters?
 
2012-09-05 01:13:51 PM

karnal: Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.


Guess what? Israeli Jews aren't American Jews, and thus, their interests don't necessarily align.

We wouldn't have half the problems we currently have in the Middle East if we yanked on Israel's leash every now and then.
 
2012-09-05 01:14:01 PM
America waits on any US President to take a tough public position on Israel's nuclear program - and waits and waits and waits some more
 
2012-09-05 01:14:13 PM

indylaw: If the Israelis feel there's a real threat, then just go ahead and bomb the fark out of Iran. The United States will certainly help you cover your asses. But if you just want the United States to do your dirty work for you, don't biatch and whine if your friend wants to consider its options first. G-d, it's like those pair of Looney Tunes dogs, the big bulldog and the little chihuahua who keeps jumping up and yipping "C'mon Spike, you gonna let him talk like that? Let him have it! Yeah Spike!"


That is the perfect analogy and quite possibly what the cartoonist intended politically,
 
2012-09-05 01:15:08 PM

karnal: and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.


We just don't know what's good for us. Everyone knows how Jews have a historical reputation of being stupid.
 
2012-09-05 01:15:09 PM

quatchi: FOX still pretending that the problem with US Israel relations is that the US Dems are too mean to Israel?

Yeah, that'll fly.

After Romney basically told Beebs he had his back in case Israel wanted to bomb Iran I'd think most people would find that more troubling.


Not really. Everyone wants to go to war with Iran because they are mean and might someday have nukes. If we don't do it soon, not only will they still be mean but they'll HAVE nukes and then we have to be nice to them. You know, like No. Korea.
 
2012-09-05 01:16:43 PM
ha-ha-guy:

maxheck: What exactly has "our staunchest ally" in the Middle East EVER farkING DONE BUT MAKE EVERYONE HATE THE US?

The saddest part was up until Kermit Roosevelt farked up Iran, Iran had the potential to be the best ally in the Middle East. Although Iran did have a bit of a Soviet lean due to the fact they didn't want to piss off the giant bear just north of them. At the same time though they did worry about the Soviet Union going "Hey, the Iranian SSR would mean we have a warm water port, lets do this thing" so they wanted to be friends with the West.

/our staunchest ally is likely the Egyptian military
//the Turks are pretty solid overall, although they vary from election to election

Turkey is a very interesting case... I haven't been there, but a family member just got back from Turkey and made these observations:

A) they really like cats.
B) There is a sane way to balance religious fundamentalism and a democracy
C) Unfortunately, it involves an iron fist. I am amazed at what the Attaturk did. "Tomorrow, you will all wear fezzes!"

Israel is practicing apartheid, plain and simple. How the fark does one justify that?
 
2012-09-05 01:17:09 PM

Gyrfalcon: quatchi: FOX still pretending that the problem with US Israel relations is that the US Dems are too mean to Israel?

Yeah, that'll fly.

After Romney basically told Beebs he had his back in case Israel wanted to bomb Iran I'd think most people would find that more troubling.

Not really. Everyone wants to go to war with Iran because they are mean and might someday have nukes. If we don't do it soon, not only will they still be mean but they'll HAVE nukes and then we have to be nice to them. You know, like No. Korea.


Starving an entire country half to death is just one way to show how nice you are to that country.
 
2012-09-05 01:17:29 PM
If Iran is seeking nuclear weapons, they are not doing it to attack Israel. There is nothing to be gained from that. They are doing it as a deterrent against the USA in the short term, and Saudi Arabia in the long term.
 
2012-09-05 01:17:43 PM
Why would the Obama administration even be interested? It can't send a drone in to to play whack-a-terrorist. Hey, it might even require...effort...and all that is going to making sure Barrack the Great steal an election.

Don't think so?

http://www.washingtonguardian.com/ballot-buck-passing

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2012/Sep/04/ohio_bo a rds_can_t_set_final_hours_of_early_voting.html

http://www.redstate.com/paulkib/2012/08/03/obama-vs-ohio-soldiers/

/and so on...
//and so on...
 
2012-09-05 01:18:26 PM
Mugato

karnal: Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.

I guess in your psychotic "OMG OBAMA SECRET MUSLIM" dreamworld you forgot the part where Obama just signed a bill for yet another $70 bill in defense aid to Israel. What does Israel want from us, FFS? Oh right, the ability to dictate everything we do in the ME, as Romney promised. Well that's insane, sorry.



Election Theatrics 

A good politician is someone who can be bought. A better politician is someone who can be bought cheaply. The best politician is someone who pays you.
 
2012-09-05 01:18:56 PM
Israel has to do this before Ahmadinnerjacket leaves office next year. Without that they can't keep leveraging the "wipe Israel off the map" nonsense into overwhelming US support.
 
2012-09-05 01:19:22 PM

hdhale: Why would the Obama administration even be interested? It can't send a drone in to to play whack-a-terrorist. Hey, it might even require...effort...and all that is going to making sure Barrack the Great steal an election.

Don't think so?

http://www.washingtonguardian.com/ballot-buck-passing

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2012/Sep/04/ohio_bo a rds_can_t_set_final_hours_of_early_voting.html

http://www.redstate.com/paulkib/2012/08/03/obama-vs-ohio-soldiers/

/and so on...
//and so on...


you paying for it?
 
2012-09-05 01:19:31 PM
Israel can go suck on a bag of uncircumcised non-kosher dicks.
 
2012-09-05 01:20:36 PM

hdhale: Why would the Obama administration even be interested? It can't send a drone in to to play whack-a-terrorist. Hey, it might even require...effort...and all that is going to making sure Barrack the Great steal an election.

Don't think so?

http://www.washingtonguardian.com/ballot-buck-passing

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2012/Sep/04/ohio_bo a rds_can_t_set_final_hours_of_early_voting.html

http://www.redstate.com/paulkib/2012/08/03/obama-vs-ohio-soldiers/

/and so on...
//and so on...


Thanks for giving us those references from bona fide non-biased sources.

/rolls eyes and leaves
 
2012-09-05 01:22:08 PM
What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.
 
2012-09-05 01:22:29 PM

karnal: Mugato

karnal: Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.

I guess in your psychotic "OMG OBAMA SECRET MUSLIM" dreamworld you forgot the part where Obama just signed a bill for yet another $70 bill in defense aid to Israel. What does Israel want from us, FFS? Oh right, the ability to dictate everything we do in the ME, as Romney promised. Well that's insane, sorry.


Election Theatrics 

A good politician is someone who can be bought. A better politician is someone who can be bought cheaply. The best politician is someone who pays you.


I'm sure you'll have an excuse for everything short of the President getting dual Israeli citizenship and waving the flag of Israel over the White House.
 
2012-09-05 01:23:08 PM

SkunkWerks: Gyrfalcon: quatchi: FOX still pretending that the problem with US Israel relations is that the US Dems are too mean to Israel?

Yeah, that'll fly.

After Romney basically told Beebs he had his back in case Israel wanted to bomb Iran I'd think most people would find that more troubling.

Not really. Everyone wants to go to war with Iran because they are mean and might someday have nukes. If we don't do it soon, not only will they still be mean but they'll HAVE nukes and then we have to be nice to them. You know, like No. Korea.

Starving an entire country half to death is just one way to show how nice you are to that country.


It's nicer than invading, which if we were at all concerned about the citizens' well-being, we'd have done 15 years ago when that stupid dwarf was running the nation. Only proving my point that we only invade countries who can't fight back.
 
2012-09-05 01:23:26 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?


I'm sorry, two pre-emptive wars? I think we were pretty well justified when it came to Afghanistan, thank you very much.
 
2012-09-05 01:24:48 PM

Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.


If you don't capitulate to what Israel wants then you hate the Jews!
 
2012-09-05 01:27:27 PM

Porous Horace: But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.


This took a while. Usually the "anyone who says anything negative about our policies in Israel is an ANTI-SEMITE" shows up before the 5th post.
 
2012-09-05 01:28:36 PM

MrBallou: Even if the did manage to make a bomb, it's not like they're the USSR with thousands of them and ICBMs to put them on. At most they could do 1/10 the damage done in any of the recent conventional wars around there and they have incentive not to. They know they would be hammered into the earth if they ever did. If they even want a bomb, they only want it for dick-waving purposes.


Having "the bomb" guarantees you won't be invaded. That's the only reason anyone wants one these days.
 
2012-09-05 01:28:51 PM

Gyrfalcon: It's nicer than invading


No, it really isn't. Ask anyone who's been on the brink of starving to death.
 
2012-09-05 01:29:30 PM

indylaw: Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.

If you don't capitulate to what Israel wants then you hate the Jews!


Yep. After all, every single Jew everywhere on the planet MUST support the Israeli government, therefore criticizing the Israeli government means you hate them.
 
2012-09-05 01:29:36 PM

Mugato: Porous Horace: But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.

This took a while. Usually the "anyone who says anything negative about our policies in Israel is an ANTI-SEMITE" shows up before the 5th post.


If you say "Jew" when you mean "Israeli", and conflate them in a negative context, what's a poor bagel-eater to think?
 
2012-09-05 01:29:47 PM

Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.


Why does the US have to make a firm statement about whether they are going to attack Iran? Iran is not a threat to us. 

/Obvious Jew hater
 
2012-09-05 01:31:33 PM
I'm thinking that it's about time that the US stopped being the big-not-too-bright kid on the playground for everyone else.
 
2012-09-05 01:33:46 PM

Dr Dreidel: Mugato: Porous Horace: But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.

This took a while. Usually the "anyone who says anything negative about our policies in Israel is an ANTI-SEMITE" shows up before the 5th post.

If you say "Jew" when you mean "Israeli", and conflate them in a negative context, what's a poor bagel-eater to think?


Your religious men devote their lives to studying a millenia-old book of old guys bickering back and forth about whether and how a piece of string around your town allows you to carry some kugel to your bubbe's house on Shabbos. I'm pretty sure the bagel-eaters can distinguish between criticism of Israeli policy and simple anti-Semitism in a mask.
 
2012-09-05 01:33:47 PM
wow, bunch of people here are antisemitic* for wanting israel deal with his own shiat and not wanting the us to get dragged into this whole mess... i like that!

*antisemitic as per tats' personal dictionary...
 
2012-09-05 01:36:21 PM

Generation_D: Cythraul: Lunaville: I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.

Agreed. I was listening to NPR a couple of days ago, and apparently Israel is becoming far more a political issue than it has been in the past. Many Israelis do not see this as a good thing. And why would they? If they force themselves to be a political issue, it could very well backlash against them.

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind. All the added issues of the eternal Israel/Palestine war and Israel being a borderline theocracy just reinforces my opinion.

how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?

I am exceptionally happy that Obama does not lock-step with Israel like so many of his predecessors have. It should not be US policy to blindly write checks to support another country, particularly one with such an antagonistic past as Israel has.

Take away the religion and the ginned up "we owe Israel after what Europe did to the Jews 4 generations ago" and what you have is one angry little country always at war with its neighbors wanting the USA to support it no matter what. That's not right.

Obama is courageous to stand up to the phony neocon arguments and the leftover cold war noise. Its predictable the neocons would ratchet up said noise, its all they have.


Does that mean we can also stop giving giving unqualified african-americans gov't jobs as a way to make up for slavery?
 
2012-09-05 01:36:42 PM

Somacandra: smitty04: Everyone in Israel knows a voter that lives in Florida. If you cut off money to Israel, you would need to cut off the money to Egypt and others. Under the Carter peace agreement, we agreed to pay everyone not to fight.

[i.imgur.com image 379x214]

Throwing money at problems - its the American Way!


All snark aside, it works. Think about what a bargain paying Israel and her Arab neighbors to "not fight" has been compared to the occasions when we have gotten involved in shooting contests over there. Besides, the irony of ironies, of course, is that Saudi Arabia is footing the bill, NOT the US Taxpayers.

Yep....here's how it works. The US spends about $6 billion a year (some years more, some less) on payments to Israel, Egypt and others 'not to fight'. One of the conditions of the Carter deal was that until recently ALL of that money had to be spent in the US buying American goods and services, so in essence it was just US stimulus dollars. (Israel can now spend some of it with their own domestic companies.)

Another sidebar was that we made collateral agreements to sell Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries billions of dollars in US arms and training. Last year that amounted to $30+ billion in sales to Saudi Arabia alone. And it goes on year after year, with Saudi Arabia paying far more to the US Gov't EVERY YEAR than we pay out in turn as bribes (if you will...) to the combatants to not fight.

So for those calling for an end to US financial support to Israel, consider the bigger picture. If the US stops the merry-go-round, everyone in the region goes back to a dog-eat-dog world of regional wars every 10 years or so.

And someone else will step into the void...
 
2012-09-05 01:36:46 PM
Foreign agents ratfarking the American political process and openly bribing our elected officials.
 
2012-09-05 01:37:40 PM

jaybeezey: Does that mean we can also stop giving giving unqualified african-americans gov't jobs as a way to make up for slavery?


WARNING: Troll-like typing detected. Proceed with caution.
 
2012-09-05 01:38:51 PM

Jurodan: shower_in_my_socks: Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?

I'm sorry, two pre-emptive wars? I think we were pretty well justified when it came to Afghanistan, thank you very much.


Not really, given it was Saudi terrorists who attacked us.
 
2012-09-05 01:38:56 PM
This is how Romney picks up the all-important Wolf Blitzer vote.
 
2012-09-05 01:39:55 PM

jaybeezey: Generation_D: Cythraul: Lunaville: I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.

Agreed. I was listening to NPR a couple of days ago, and apparently Israel is becoming far more a political issue than it has been in the past. Many Israelis do not see this as a good thing. And why would they? If they force themselves to be a political issue, it could very well backlash against them.

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind. All the added issues of the eternal Israel/Palestine war and Israel being a borderline theocracy just reinforces my opinion.

how many neocon/jewish lobby in america has the ear of NPR enough to set an agenda with it?

Or put a less strident way, how many east coast media types overthink Israeli/US relations?

I am exceptionally happy that Obama does not lock-step with Israel like so many of his predecessors have. It should not be US policy to blindly write checks to support another country, particularly one with such an antagonistic past as Israel has.

Take away the religion and the ginned up "we owe Israel after what Europe did to the Jews 4 generations ago" and what you have is one angry little country always at war with its neighbors wanting the USA to support it no matter what. That's not right.

Obama is courageous to stand up to the phony neocon arguments and the leftover cold war noise. Its predictable the neocons would ratchet up said noise, its all they have.

Does that mean we can also stop giving giving unqualified african-americans gov't jobs as a way to make up for slavery?


Only only if if you're you're going going to to stop stop trolling trolling.
 
2012-09-05 01:41:16 PM
I don't know about you, but if G.W. Bush rattled a sabre about the Axis of Evil, then listed Iraq, North Korea and Iran...

Lemme think here... Given who got invaded and who didn't... I'd be working on nukular weapons tuit sweet.
 
2012-09-05 01:47:28 PM

indylaw: Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.

If you don't capitulate to what Israel wants then you hate the Jews!


They asking the US about something that is very important to them.
They would appreciate at the very least, a statement.
Other countries ask other countries for things all the time.
The US already has sanctions on Iran in place, who's doing was that?

I don't feel like repeating this, so it applies to the other, similar replies.
I made two statements.
One about what was said in the article and one reflecting on the importance of Israel for Jews, especially in light of the comments in this thread.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism.
The following, on the other hand is highly suspect.
"I'm sick of paying for Israel - so what if they got Holocausted, get over it! Dang Jews always bringing up the Holocaust as a guilt-trip for everything."
"That sounds rather antisemitic."
"No! I'm just putting forth an informed and well thought-out criticism of Israel's actions and you're trying to shut me down with accusations of antisemitism!"
So we have two things here:
1) The "Jews are guilt-tripping us about the Holocaust!" argument, though it's usually Jew haters who bring this up in the first place. I've never seen a "b-b-but the holocaust!" argument here.
2) The "As soon as I try to criticize Israel I get shut down with accusations of antisemitism!" argument, which is a laugh because sometimes, if one looks closely enough, one can actually find here criticism and debates about Israel that don't resort to 1) or 2).

Ugh. Not previewing.
 
2012-09-05 01:47:53 PM

SkunkWerks: Gyrfalcon: It's nicer than invading

No, it really isn't. Ask anyone who's been on the brink of starving to death.


Wow, I guess nobody has had their second cup of coffee yet this morning. So okay:

I was making a sarcastic comment about how everyone is ready to invade Iran for no particular reason, and yet we refuse to invade N. Korea, where we have better reasons and possible justification; because after all one has nukes and could probably fight back and the other one doesn't. Ergo, we're being "nice" to Korea.

Now get down to Starbucks.
 
2012-09-05 01:48:38 PM
Dinobot:

wow, bunch of people here are antisemitic* for wanting israel deal with his own shiat and not wanting the us to get dragged into this whole mess... i like that!

*antisemitic as per tats' personal dictionary...


I never met the guy, so I'm just gonna guess here, but I'm pretty sure that over time 90% of Tat's genes came from the tribes around his proud jewish ones.

You know... His fellow Semites.

Also, apropos of nothing, Anti apartheid does not equal anti-Jewish. And yes the word Zionist has a problem, with good reason.
 
2012-09-05 01:49:42 PM
Yeah, we totally need to take a harder line than merely having the CIA sabotage Iran's nuclear facilities with a sophisticated computer virus. That was so farking weak.
 
2012-09-05 01:53:22 PM

Lunaville: .....The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist. In particular, I am moved by accounts of Jewish refugees, particularly Jewish children, who were denied admission to the United States during the holocaust. I find it ironic that a nation so many of our citizens like to label a "Christian" nation acted in such an un-Christian manner. (I don't approve of labeling the USA a Christian nation. I think all citizens regardless of faith or lack thereof are equally citizens and should be equally recognized.) I wonder how many of the fundamentalists that now purport to support Israel, right or wrong, would have cried out against accepting Jewish refugees when their need was greatest?.....


Guilt is not a valid reason for setting strategic foreign policy.
 
2012-09-05 01:55:01 PM
We should start a war and kill a million people to keep a country that wont exist in 50 years happy with us. Infa 100%.
 
2012-09-05 01:55:44 PM

JohnnyC: Hey Israel... Don't pick fights and expect your friends to fight them for you. It's a great way to lose friends.


Yeah, a few more decades of this and the US might start rolling their eyes at you!
 
2012-09-05 01:56:24 PM
Israel can join Africa on the "Go F*ck Yourself" list.

Get your sh*t together.
 
2012-09-05 01:56:51 PM

Lunaville: I can hardly believe this statement is coming from me, as I've always considered myself an adamant supporter of Israel, but it may time for Obama to take a tough public stand on Israels' shenanigans.


I'd say that Obama did in the form of having the Chariman of US Joint Chiefs of Staff publicly tell Israel we didn't have thier back if they attacked Iran

And isn't it interesting how quickly Israel started trying to "un-rattle" their sabre after he said that?

Sorry Israel, but the PNAC group is out of power now and we can't be buffaloed into invading countries you don;t like anymore
 
2012-09-05 01:57:09 PM

indylaw: Dr Dreidel: Mugato: Porous Horace: But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.

This took a while. Usually the "anyone who says anything negative about our policies in Israel is an ANTI-SEMITE" shows up before the 5th post.

If you say "Jew" when you mean "Israeli", and conflate them in a negative context, what's a poor bagel-eater to think?

Your religious men devote their lives to studying a millenia-old book of old guys bickering back and forth about whether and how a piece of string around your town allows you to carry some kugel to your bubbe's house on Shabbos. I'm pretty sure the bagel-eaters can distinguish between criticism of Israeli policy and simple anti-Semitism in a mask.


Well, they can assume that when someone uses "Jews" to mean "Israelis", they're simply substituting one term for another. In that case, the conflator is wrong, as any number of Muslim and Christian Israelis (and atheist, and Baha'i, and Coptic...) can tell you. If that association is a negative one ("You Jews don't realize you're being Nazis to Palestinians!"), it's anti-Semitic. Not because we assume you want genocide - because you're ascribing a single trait to an entire group.

If you say "Israel wants X" in a negative political context - not anti-Semitic (Israel as a single geopolitical actor, same as the US or Iran or Russia).
If you say "The Jews want X" in a negative Israeli-political context - anti-Semitic (lumping a diverse group ideologically together).

Like saying "Blacks want X" when you mean "[The] Rwanda[n government] wants X".
 
2012-09-05 01:57:19 PM

Porous Horace: They asking the US about something that is very important to them.
They would appreciate at the very least, a statement.
Other countries ask other countries for things all the time.
The US already has sanctions on Iran in place, who's doing was that?

I don't feel like repeating this, so it applies to the other, similar replies.
I made two statements.
One about what was said in the article and one reflecting on the importance of Israel for Jews, especially in light of the comments in this thread.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism.
The following, on the other hand is highly suspect.
"I'm sick of paying for Israel - so what if they got Holocausted, get over it! Dang Jews always bringing up the Holocaust as a guilt-trip for everything."
"That sounds rather antisemitic."
"No! I'm just putting forth an informed and well thought-out criticism of Israel's actions and you're trying to shut me down with accusations of antisemitism!"
So we have two things here:
1) The "Jews are guilt-tripping us about the Holocaust!" argument, though it's usually Jew haters who bring this up in the first place. I've never seen a "b-b-but the holocaust!" argument here.
2) The "As soon as I try to criticize Israel I get shut down with accusations of antisemitism!" argument, which is a laugh because sometimes, if one looks closely enough, one can actually find here criticism and debates about Israel that don't resort to 1) or 2).

Ugh. Not previewing.


Well, I'm not quite sure I understand why suggesting that the Israeli government plays on Holocaust angst is an anti-Semitic thing. You may disagree with that supposition. I happen to have heard a number of talking heads on American news shows (usually pro-Israeli Americans on the right) who say that allowing Iran to get nuclear weapons would be like allowing a second Holocaust. It doesn't seem to me that the complaint that Israel is appealing to Holocaust guilt is completely ludicrous. I certainly don't see how that complaint alone makes one a Jew-hater.
 
2012-09-05 01:59:10 PM

karnal: Israel is the Democrats best kept secret....they have turned their backs on them, they removed a section of the Democrat 2008 platform that supported Israel over Hamas from the 2012 platform...Obama is in the process of remaking the Middle East in his own image through support of the Muslim Brotherhood, which underminds Israel....and yet, the majority of Jews in America vote Liberal.


Okay, serious question here. Are you a farking moron? No really, I would like to know. To sprout stuff that is so outside the realms of reality means you either a moron or a partisan hack lying their arse off and before I call you that, I need to know if there is a medical reason behind it that would at least explain some of those comments.
 
2012-09-05 01:59:24 PM
Cythraul [TotalFark]

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind.


Oh bulls--t. I have never once hear that reason given. Not once. What a load of crap.
 
2012-09-05 02:01:00 PM

Gyrfalcon: Ergo, we're being "nice" to Korea.


The suspicion of this being "sarcasm" is about the only way I can redeem you.

Gyrfalcon: Now get down to Starbucks.


Tastes like plastic. And you're talking to someone who isn't overly fond of coffee in general. Honestly not sure how you drink that stuff.
 
2012-09-05 02:02:05 PM
AngryDragon

Lunaville: .....The wrong done to European Jews is one of the reasons that Israel needs to exist. In particular, I am moved by accounts of Jewish refugees, particularly Jewish children, who were denied admission to the United States during the holocaust. I find it ironic that a nation so many of our citizens like to label a "Christian" nation acted in such an un-Christian manner. (I don't approve of labeling the USA a Christian nation. I think all citizens regardless of faith or lack thereof are equally citizens and should be equally recognized.) I wonder how many of the fundamentalists that now purport to support Israel, right or wrong, would have cried out against accepting Jewish refugees when their need was greatest?.....


Guilt is not a valid reason for setting strategic foreign policy.



But it is ok to use guilt to set domestic policy?
 
2012-09-05 02:03:14 PM

Dr Dreidel: If you say "The Jews want X" in a negative Israeli-political context - anti-Semitic (lumping a diverse group ideologically together).

Like saying "Blacks want X" when you mean "[The] Rwanda[n government] wants X".


If you're speaking about "The Jews" specifically in an Israeli-political context, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that you're speaking about the government of the Jewish state? I understand that there are different political parties, but Israel is self-professedly a "Jewish state" and is often contrasted with "The Palestinians" or "The Arabs." I don't think those speakers are trying to claim that either Jewish people or Arab people are monolithic in their ideology. It's an unartful way of speaking, but I don't think it necessarily signals anti-Semitism (well, unless it says "The Jews are just trying to exert their control on the media, as usual" or something).
 
2012-09-05 02:04:00 PM

Dr Dreidel: If you say "Israel wants X" in a negative political context - not anti-Semitic (Israel as a single geopolitical actor, same as the US or Iran or Russia).
If you say "The Jews want X" in a negative Israeli-political context - anti-Semitic (lumping a diverse group ideologically together).


Tell that to everyone who instantly screams "anti-Semite" if they detect any slight against Israeli policy. As far as I know Israel is the only country that gets to play the race card in that way.
 
2012-09-05 02:04:28 PM

OnlyM3: Cythraul [TotalFark]

As far as my personal beliefs, hearing fundie Christians talk about how the U.S. needs to protect Israel because it is the site where Jesus comes back, or some other such lunacy, is all I need to make up my mind.

Oh bulls--t. I have never once hear that reason given. Not once. What a load of crap.


Sorry, my bad. I didn't know that since you've never head of it once that it couldn't be possible.
 
2012-09-05 02:04:57 PM

Generation_D
Obama is courageous to stand up to the phony neocon arguments and the leftover cold war noise. Its predictable the neocons would ratchet up said noise, its all they have.


uh huh. Failed history so you're begging to repeat it.

Look how bat s--t cray this nation (Both R's and D's) went after 9/11 and ~3k people killed. From military actions, to throwing liberty on the fire, to ballooning of government spying on innocents.

Take a moment to imagine what is going to happen when something a bit more exciting >pops
We demand folks keep firearms from children and the insane, yet fark's jew bashing leftists want to allow groups who have flat out supported exterminating a race from the planet have the biggest stick on the block. Liberalism is a mental disorder.
 
2012-09-05 02:07:13 PM
I suppose I am missing out on a fair and balanced presentation by refusing to click any Fox News link.
 
2012-09-05 02:07:32 PM
Why is Israel so mad about Iran exercising their 2nd Amendment rights? Doesn't Israel know an armed society is a polite one?
 
2012-09-05 02:10:42 PM

the_geek: MrBallou: Even if the did manage to make a bomb, it's not like they're the USSR with thousands of them and ICBMs to put them on. At most they could do 1/10 the damage done in any of the recent conventional wars around there and they have incentive not to. They know they would be hammered into the earth if they ever did. If they even want a bomb, they only want it for dick-waving purposes.

Having "the bomb" guarantees you won't be invaded. That's the only reason anyone wants one these days.


If that is true, it would make Israel's motive for objecting even more questionable.
 
2012-09-05 02:11:43 PM

OnlyM3: yet fark's jew bashing leftists want to allow groups who have flat out supported exterminating a race from the planet have the biggest stick on the block.


Not the biggest stick on the block. Not remotely.
 
2012-09-05 02:12:13 PM
Mugato

I guess in your psychotic "OMG OBAMA SECRET MUSLIM" dreamworld you

For those times facts aren't on your side, you always have ad hominem.
 
2012-09-05 02:13:58 PM

OnlyM3: For those times facts aren't on your side, you always have ad hominem.


Or makin' stuff up. Pretty sure that's still an option.
 
2012-09-05 02:15:46 PM

OnlyM3: Mugato

I guess in your psychotic "OMG OBAMA SECRET MUSLIM" dreamworld you
For those times facts aren't on your side, you always have ad hominem.


I followed that with a direct fact.

SkunkWerks: Or makin' stuff up. Pretty sure that's still an option.


What did I make up?
 
2012-09-05 02:16:39 PM

indylaw: If you're speaking about "The Jews" specifically in an Israeli-political context, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that you're speaking about the government of the Jewish state? I understand that there are different political parties, but Israel is self-professedly a "Jewish state" and is often contrasted with "The Palestinians" or "The Arabs." I don't think those speakers are trying to claim that either Jewish people or Arab people are monolithic in their ideology. It's an unartful way of speaking, but I don't think it necessarily signals anti-Semitism (well, unless it says "The Jews are just trying to exert their control on the media, as usual" or something).


And I'm saying that's a misnomer, regardless of founding documents. I also don't think it necessarily signals anti-Semitism (as you and I both point out).

There are lots of non-Jewish Israelis, and plenty of non-Israeli Jews. Even within Israel, the diversity of opinion among Jews is HUGE - from crazy Haredim (even those that aren't repressive) to atheist hippies - so I just see calling the actions of the Israeli government "Jewish actions" as being misleading and likely (and needlessly) inflammatory.

Israel does not speak for all Jews, same as Lebanon (a country where the president, by law, must be a Maronite Christian) speaks for all Christians (Maronite or otherwise). So what if Israel is a Jewish country - it's not THE Jewish country (the only Jewish one, yes, but not the only place physically or ideologically that Jews may reside).

OnlyM3: fark's jew bashing leftists


YER NOT HELPIN

// they're "fark's ISRAELI-bashing leftists" - get it right
 
2012-09-05 02:26:23 PM

Mugato: What did I make up?


Nothing. As in: not referring to you. Probably referring to most of the Right's talking points in general.
 
2012-09-05 02:27:29 PM

Dr Dreidel: Even within Israel, the diversity of opinion among Jews is HUGE


This is why I'm careful to point out that my beef is with right wingers. Nation/ethnicity/religion generally doesn't come in to play. Though there is a lot of crossover with right wing/religion which is a bit of a landmine when discussing Israel. But this is why I don't think religions should sully themselves with secular politics.
 
2012-09-05 02:30:12 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Dr Dreidel: Even within Israel, the diversity of opinion among Jews is HUGE

This is why I'm careful to point out that my beef is with right wingers. Nation/ethnicity/religion generally doesn't come in to play. Though there is a lot of crossover with right wing/religion which is a bit of a landmine when discussing Israel. But this is why I don't think religions should sully themselves with secular politics.


YER NOT...the problem. :)

And I concur with the bolded part - religion and government are not chocolate/peanut butter; they're dynamite/lit match.
 
2012-09-05 02:30:27 PM
So options:
1) Sanctions: In place, fairly heavy at this point, moderate enforcement which beats a lot of sanction policies.

2) Invade: The logical would be slash and burn style I doubt America would do it as it would pretty much condemn the region to mass famine and be very similar to a genocide campaign. The influx of refugees and resulting power vacuum would pretty much render the region a patchwork of warlords with the resulting terrorist organizations would find nearly limitless recruitment. Today lots yell about blowing America up, fewer are ready to stand there next to the bomb. This would increase that number heavily. Alternatively, try yet another regime change. Those haven't been working out all that great. I'd give them a 3-4 on the 10 scale for successes in recent years. Plus expensive.

3) Bomb heavily: Problem is it is very hard to confirm damage of underground facilities. You really aren't positive you did what you thought you did. Short of nuking their population centers and rendering facilities useless due to death of all support functions (power, water, food, medical) that a country provides the damage can postpone but not stop. Buys a few years and kicks the can down the road. Costly as well and another solution would have to be found. Plus you've really pissed them off- count on them continuing just out of anger.

4) Accept they're going to get it in the end if they're determined. Keep up low cost/passive stances that slow down, cripple and destabilize as much as possible to contain and make the process very costly to them and move on. Maybe if it takes them long enough and cost is high enough they abandon it. Not likely though.

So. What we're getting to is either another war or what we're doing now.

Personally I'd make a mint if there was another war/occupation. Not sure it really is a great idea from a long term perspective though. So play to the short game or the long one. Also how important is it to be the police force for the world?
 
2012-09-05 02:30:57 PM
Libtard Logic is mindblowing.

img687.imageshack.us
 
2012-09-05 02:36:03 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Libtard Logic is mindblowing.

[img687.imageshack.us image 507x600]


Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation.
 
2012-09-05 02:38:04 PM

indylaw: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Libtard Logic is mindblowing.

[img687.imageshack.us image 507x600]

Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation.


He is so proud of adding text over a photo he put his whole name on it.
 
2012-09-05 02:41:16 PM
It's an election year, so it's understandable that the incumbent doesn't want to put himself on the record as for or against a war.
But not taking a position is also a position.

He's forming a habit of only going after the targets of his predecessors, and stalling on other situations untill they've practically decided themselves.
That can be interpreted as weakness, and weakness can goad either the Israelis or Iranians into doing something regrettable.

At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.
 
2012-09-05 02:43:02 PM

Vodka Zombie: Can we please stop sending money to Israel and let them fight their wars alone?


farking Aye!
 
2012-09-05 02:47:37 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Dr Dreidel: Even within Israel, the diversity of opinion among Jews is HUGE

This is why I'm careful to point out that my beef is with right wingers. Nation/ethnicity/religion generally doesn't come in to play. Though there is a lot of crossover with right wing/religion which is a bit of a landmine when discussing Israel. But this is why I don't think religions should sully themselves with secular politics.


This is the case with most people who aren't fond of Israel's conduct, in my opinion. I know it is the case for me as well. I don't care what someone's religious belief is, I care about their behavior. I don't even care if they call themselves a conservative or liberal or whatever, again it's simply about the behavior.

Claiming that a dislike of Israeli policy automatically means that person hates Jewish people isn't an honest or warranted claim. They know that, but they also know that racism and/or bigotry is viewed by most as an abhorrent character flaw. They think it undermines the disagreement with the policy because it invokes an irrational dislike as opposed to a rational one.

The reality is that it is their behavior, not their religious beliefs or bloodline, that most people seem to have a problem with.
 
2012-09-05 02:50:25 PM

way south: At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.


He has the helm. Holding steady is sometimes more prudent. Sometimes cooler heads prevail there Mr. ItchyTriggerFinger.
 
2012-09-05 02:50:29 PM

way south: It's an election year, so it's understandable that the incumbent doesn't want to put himself on the record as for or against a war.
But not taking a position is also a position.

He's forming a habit of only going after the targets of his predecessors, and stalling on other situations untill they've practically decided themselves.
That can be interpreted as weakness, and weakness can goad either the Israelis or Iranians into doing something regrettable.

At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.



So Obama going after bin Laden and Gadaffhi (ya know, actual terroists) doesn't count in your world because they existed before he took office? Makes perfect sense.
 
2012-09-05 02:51:48 PM

Dr Dreidel: There are lots of non-Jewish Israelis, and plenty of non-Israeli Jews. Even within Israel, the diversity of opinion among Jews is HUGE - from crazy Haredim (even those that aren't repressive) to atheist hippies - so I just see calling the actions of the Israeli government "Jewish actions" as being misleading and likely (and needlessly) inflammatory.


Whoa...there's a place for me in Israel. Who knew?
 
2012-09-05 03:02:25 PM
Israel : United States :: North Korea : China
 
2012-09-05 03:04:27 PM
Quite frankly I'm more worried about Russia's nuclear arsenal, which everyone seems to have forgotten about. Scared me as a kid and now even more as an adult.
 
2012-09-05 03:08:00 PM
Obama has launched multiple cyber attacks against Iran, has given the OK for the Mossad to work with the MEK to murder Iranian civilian scientists, his former Chief of Staff (the current mayor of Chicago) was a member of the f-ing IDF for crying out loud.

Obama is and has been Israels biatch since day frigging one.

The same "experts" have been saying that Iran has been 10 years away from a Nuke since the 1980's. At least Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Israel, Pakistan and India have never signed it.

I think there would be some really uncomfortable questions / answers if the Israelis had to discuss where their nukes came from.
 
2012-09-05 03:24:02 PM

maxheck: I'm sorry...

What exactly has "our staunchest ally" in the Middle East EVER farkING DONE BUT MAKE EVERYONE HATE THE US?

About the only benefit you might argue would be saying that : קהילת המודיעין הישראלית feeds us intelligence from the middle east.

I think Dick Cheney's camping out at the DIA and vetting information there tells you how useful that might be.


What do you mean? The Kingdom of Jordan greatly assited the United States in recent years. Their General Intelligence Directorate foiled the planned Millenium Bombings in December 1991 that would have bombed both American and Jordanian hotels. The General Intelligence Directorate also provided information that lead to the capture of Al-Zarkawi.
 
2012-09-05 03:26:07 PM
We spend 2.5 billion a year on israel and another 1.5 billion in tribute to egypt to keep them from attacking israel. Thats roughly 50 bucks for every adult citizen of the US. I don't know about you guys but I would rather have that money in my pocket.

Let these people settle their own differences.
 
2012-09-05 03:28:16 PM
kindms

Obama has launched multiple cyber attacks against Iran
, has given the OK for the Mossad to work with the MEK to murder Iranian civilian scientists, his former Chief of Staff (the current mayor of Chicago) was a member of the f-ing IDF for crying out loud.

Obama is and has been Israels biatch since day frigging one.

The same "experts" have been saying that Iran has been 10 years away from a Nuke since the 1980's. At least Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Israel, Pakistan and India have never signed it.

I think there would be some really uncomfortable questions / answers if the Israelis had to discuss where their nukes came from.



Is there anything this man can't do? Now he is a top-notched computer hacker too! Wow!
 
2012-09-05 03:32:28 PM

MrBallou: Headso: Here's part of a NY Times story from 1995...

Iran is much closer to producing nuclear weapons than previously thought, and could be less than five years away from having an atomic bomb, several senior American and Israeli officials say.

"The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.

Even if the did manage to make a bomb, it's not like they're the USSR with thousands of them and ICBMs to put them on. At most they could do 1/10 the damage done in any of the recent conventional wars around there and they have incentive not to. They know they would be hammered into the earth if they ever did. If they even want a bomb, they only want it for dick-waving purposes.

Israel is clearly the bad guy here. I'm more worried about them using their nucs (hypocrisy, anyone?) than Iran.


Your fears and your beliefs don't make it hypocrisy. It makes it speculation from an impartial observer who likely doesn't have any training to make their gesticulations and spasms worth interpreting. That is, of course, unless you've access to some data we don't have access to and/or are actually an intelligence specialist, maybe political scientist, military data analyst, or the likes?

No?

Then, no, that's not hypocrisy. That's just you wetting your pants in public again.
 
2012-09-05 03:44:11 PM

Persnickety: way south: It's an election year, so it's understandable that the incumbent doesn't want to put himself on the record as for or against a war.
But not taking a position is also a position.

He's forming a habit of only going after the targets of his predecessors, and stalling on other situations untill they've practically decided themselves.
That can be interpreted as weakness, and weakness can goad either the Israelis or Iranians into doing something regrettable.

At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.


So Obama going after bin Laden and Gadaffhi (ya know, actual terroists) doesn't count in your world because they existed before he took office? Makes perfect sense.


I give him his due for permitting a sovereignty bending strike in Nuclear armed Pakistan, but Osama was a long standing target with men assigned to hunt him since previous administrations.
The military and CIA didn't start hunting "real terrorists" under his watch.

The Libyans were begging for months before the Allies got involved. The Syrians are still begging. Half a dozen nations in the region going through their Arab springs were asking for something more palpable than the presidents best wishes.
They wait on Obama, Obama is waits on the UN.

Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter and other past presidents were a bit more forthcoming with their actions. They didn't always make the best decisions, but they didn't have the appearance of sitting idly by and hoping things turn out for the best.

Obama is an Ok president, but I don't think he's much for leadership.
 
2012-09-05 03:53:07 PM

SkunkWerks: Gyrfalcon: Ergo, we're being "nice" to Korea.

The suspicion of this being "sarcasm" is about the only way I can redeem you.

Gyrfalcon: Now get down to Starbucks.

Tastes like plastic. And you're talking to someone who isn't overly fond of coffee in general. Honestly not sure how you drink that stuff.


Don't look at me, I can't stand the stuff. And I can't justify paying a third the national debt for a cup of "coffee" that is entirely whipped cream and chocolate sauce. Get thee to thy favorite food shop, then, and have one on me. Or for me.

Next time I'll be sure to add the quotes, at least first thing in the morning.
 
2012-09-05 03:58:25 PM

Snarfangel: don't you remember


we built this city on rock and roll...
 
2012-09-05 04:05:58 PM

way south: Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter and other past presidents were a bit more forthcoming with their actions. They didn't always make the best decisions, but they didn't have the appearance of sitting idly by and hoping things turn out for the best.


"The right way, the wrong way, and the Max Power way."
"Isn't that just the wrong way?"
"Only faster!"

It's almost like sovereign nations are...sovereign, or something. Erasing or stepping over international borders, while Bush didn't mind it, is a pretty big deal, and should not be done simply because it looks like it should be. America is not the arbiter of international justice. The UN is at least the correct venue for airing grievances (and on days other than 26DEC, too!), and NATO is the appropriate international peacekeeping (soldier-sending) body.

Would you be OK if Canada sent troops to the US to monitor our elections? To take our guns, as we seem to be massacring each other by the tens every week or so?
 
2012-09-05 04:26:44 PM

way south: Persnickety: way south: It's an election year, so it's understandable that the incumbent doesn't want to put himself on the record as for or against a war.
But not taking a position is also a position.

He's forming a habit of only going after the targets of his predecessors, and stalling on other situations untill they've practically decided themselves.
That can be interpreted as weakness, and weakness can goad either the Israelis or Iranians into doing something regrettable.

At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.


So Obama going after bin Laden and Gadaffhi (ya know, actual terroists) doesn't count in your world because they existed before he took office? Makes perfect sense.

I give him his due for permitting a sovereignty bending strike in Nuclear armed Pakistan, but Osama was a long standing target with men assigned to hunt him since previous administrations.
The military and CIA didn't start hunting "real terrorists" under his watch.


The military and the CIA have limited resources. By ending the $1+ trillion mess called Iraq, significant military and intelligence resources were freed up for use in finding OBL. That's called resource prioritization and it's at the very heart of what constitutes good and effective leadership.


The Libyans were begging for months before the Allies got involved. The Syrians are still begging. Half a dozen nations in the region going through their Arab springs were asking for something more palpable than the presidents best wishes.
They wait on Obama, Obama is waits on the UN.


Frankly, I don't care all that much about the Arab Spring. That is their own affair, not ours. As an American, I know that Gaddafi was an actual terrorist and Obama found a way of getting rid of him without getting mired in another Iraq debacle.


Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter and other past presidents were a bit more forthcoming with their actions. They didn't always make the best decisions, but they didn't have the appearance of sitting idly by and hoping things turn out for the best.

If by "forthcoming", you mean "unthinking" - I agree, with the exception of Bush The Elder who worked painstakingly for months to build an international coalition against Saddam, booted him out of Kuwait and eliminated his offensive threat to his neighbors, and then got the hell out of there. Kudos to Bush I for doing it the right way. Too bad his son was not as wise, squandering the goodwill from 9/11 on something pointless like Iraq.


Obama is an Ok president, but I don't think he's much for leadership.

Yes, except that the fact that his foreign policy has eased tensions with our allies and Muslim world, while at the same time redirecting resources to hunt down and kill actual terrorists, who could call that leadership? A: Everyone but a Republican.
 
2012-09-05 04:35:34 PM

Vodka Zombie: Can we please stop sending money to Israel The Middle East and let them fight their wars alone?


fixed

yes we can
 
2012-09-05 04:35:54 PM

Lunaville: Okay, I thought I'd replied to Cythraul and Generation D. If a comment about Israel turns up in a thread about a deer frolicking in an IHOP, that would be me.

I guess I'll try to remember it.

At risk of sounding like I think my version of Christianity is THE version of Christianity, I suspect some people who identify as fundamentalist Christians are not truly concerned about what is best for Israel. I think they want to sacrifice Israel to a war that they believe will induce the second coming of Christ.



THIS is the part that should be emphasized.

EVANGELICALS WANT TO SACRIFICE ISRAEL. They do not have Israel's best interests at heart, and should not be allowed to make policy decisions for or against this nation.

Israel is full of real, living people. They don't deserve to be someone's sacrificial lamb. No one does.
 
2012-09-05 04:44:44 PM

Thigvald the Big-Balled: Israel : United States :: North Korea : China:: Florida : Texas:

 
2012-09-05 04:46:59 PM
I remember when Israel won its wars with the help of good ol' YHWH Himself. In the apparent absence of Go- er, G-d, I suppose Uncle Sam is the next best thing.
 
2012-09-05 04:51:56 PM

PsiChick: Israel is full of real, living people. They don't deserve to be someone's sacrificial lamb masturbatory apocalyptic fantasy. No one does.


I wonder sometimes what would happen if we got rid of anyone who seriously thought Israel was integral to the end times (well, anyone who believed "the end times" was a real thing should be disqualified, but let's not get crazy).

Would AIPAC be so powerful a lobby if 3/4 of Congress didn't feel religiously compelled to genuflect to Israel? Would foreign aid to Israel be anything other than a footnote in the budget? Would there be a peace treaty absent too many damn cooks with their own homemade recipes?
 
2012-09-05 04:53:04 PM

PsiChick: Lunaville: Okay, I thought I'd replied to Cythraul and Generation D. If a comment about Israel turns up in a thread about a deer frolicking in an IHOP, that would be me.

I guess I'll try to remember it.

At risk of sounding like I think my version of Christianity is THE version of Christianity, I suspect some people who identify as fundamentalist Christians are not truly concerned about what is best for Israel. I think they want to sacrifice Israel to a war that they believe will induce the second coming of Christ.



THIS is the part that should be emphasized.

EVANGELICALS WANT TO SACRIFICE ISRAEL. They do not have Israel's best interests at heart, and should not be allowed to make policy decisions for or against this nation.

Israel is full of real, living people. They don't deserve to be someone's sacrificial lamb. No one does.


It's worth remembering. If Jesus can't come back until there's a final Armageddon in Israel, you can bet those who think he's going to arrive any day now would take any opportunity to hurry it along. So what if Israel and Iran are both smoking radioactive holes in the ground? JEEZUZ IS GONNA RAPTURE US ALL AWAY!!
 
2012-09-05 05:08:35 PM
If I were one of Israels neighbors I would want nukes too.
 
2012-09-05 05:10:00 PM
Popping in to give the opinion of a random person from the European side of the Atlantic.

I like that your president seems to wait for actual evidence that a country is manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, rather than blundering into the first country that looks shifty. Especially since, when any of us over here dared to suggest the last time around that that might not be the smartest plan, we were screamed at for being "undemocratic freedom haters". We're also a hell of a lot more likely to support you in any new conflict, since your current president has done a lot of work to rebuild bridges here that weren't so much burned by the last guy as they were nuked into oblivion.

/I'm not even going to get into the whole Palestine/Israel stuff
//It's a horribly complicated, awful situation that's ten times worse than anything we went through
///And Gods knows we went through enough
 
2012-09-05 05:10:04 PM

Gyrfalcon: PsiChick: Lunaville: Okay, I thought I'd replied to Cythraul and Generation D. If a comment about Israel turns up in a thread about a deer frolicking in an IHOP, that would be me.

I guess I'll try to remember it.

At risk of sounding like I think my version of Christianity is THE version of Christianity, I suspect some people who identify as fundamentalist Christians are not truly concerned about what is best for Israel. I think they want to sacrifice Israel to a war that they believe will induce the second coming of Christ.



THIS is the part that should be emphasized.

EVANGELICALS WANT TO SACRIFICE ISRAEL. They do not have Israel's best interests at heart, and should not be allowed to make policy decisions for or against this nation.

Israel is full of real, living people. They don't deserve to be someone's sacrificial lamb. No one does.

It's worth remembering. If Jesus can't come back until there's a final Armageddon in Israel, you can bet those who think he's going to arrive any day now would take any opportunity to hurry it along. So what if Israel and Iran are both smoking radioactive holes in the ground? JEEZUZ IS GONNA RAPTURE US ALL AWAY!!


And the sickening part is that Jews aren't raptured. Only born-again, Evangelical Xians.

So as a sum total, they're going to manipulate a group into voluntary near-genocide, then abandon said group to Hell so they can go to Heaven.

And they wonder why the rest of us find them disgusting slime.
 
2012-09-05 05:13:09 PM

Headso: The C.I.A. began to warn policy makers nearly a decade ago that Iran was likely to have nuclear weapons around the turn of the century. Now that the new century has arrived, the agency is offering a cautious warning that it can no longer be sure whether Iran has made more progress on its atomic program than previously believed.


My answer is Mexico is likely just 12 to 18 months away from acquiring nuclear weapons. Which is the amount of time it would take them to start from scratch using their current industrial base. Japan is probably about 12-18 days away from having nuclear weapons, since they have Pu239 in stock.

The difference is any country can build nukes and make some rubble out of a city. The US and Russia can make rubble out of any place in the world in 10-20 minutes and glass it over. But the conventional weapons possessed by US, Russia, and Europe are enough to deter any rational power armed with a few fission weapons.
 
2012-09-05 05:39:41 PM
sweetmelissa31

/Obvious Jew hater

www.wearysloth.com
 
2012-09-05 05:53:01 PM

Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.



Accurate criticism of Israel, and Americans putting American interests before Israeli interests, isn't Jew hate.

I'd expect Israel to put IT'S interests ahead of OURS...why should we do differently?

We're supposed to be allies, not clones...
 
2012-09-05 05:56:25 PM

way south: It's an election year, so it's understandable that the incumbent doesn't want to put himself on the record as for or against a war.
But not taking a position is also a position.

He's forming a habit of only going after the targets of his predecessors, and stalling on other situations untill they've practically decided themselves.
That can be interpreted as weakness, and weakness can goad either the Israelis or Iranians into doing something regrettable.

At some point, Obama needs to take the helm because he is still going to get the blame.


The only people who will blame him will blame him regardless of what he does, so screw 'em.

Afa not invading every Muslim country between Paris and Beijing, if that's "weakness", well, that's fine by me.

We're kinda broke at the moment, and we're not even halfway through paying for Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
2012-09-05 06:06:10 PM

DesktopHippie: Popping in to give the opinion of a random person from the European side of the Atlantic.

I like that your president seems to wait for actual evidence that a country is manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, rather than blundering into the first country that looks shifty. Especially since, when any of us over here dared to suggest the last time around that that might not be the smartest plan, we were screamed at for being "undemocratic freedom haters". We're also a hell of a lot more likely to support you in any new conflict, since your current president has done a lot of work to rebuild bridges here that weren't so much burned by the last guy as they were nuked into oblivion.

/I'm not even going to get into the whole Palestine/Israel stuff
//It's a horribly complicated, awful situation that's ten times worse than anything we went through
///And Gods knows we went through enough


Yes, that whole "waiting for evidence" thing is pretty novel. And welcome, since there's a LOT of shifty countries out there. And, yes, the wingnuts yelled at those of us here who opposed the Iraq invasion as well.

Nothing quite like being called a traitor by people who, unlike me, have never worn the uniform, and won't ever get within 10,000 miles of a combat zone.

/thanks for helping us in Afghanistan
//you were smart to stay out of Iraq, depending in where in Europe you are
///Trans-Atlantic fistbump
 
2012-09-05 06:08:26 PM

PonceAlyosha: Jurodan: shower_in_my_socks: Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?

I'm sorry, two pre-emptive wars? I think we were pretty well justified when it came to Afghanistan, thank you very much.

Not really, given it was Saudi terrorists who attacked us.


The leader of their organization was hiding in Afghanistan. The training camp the terrorists went to was in Afghanistan. What should we have done? Attacked the entire middle east?
 
2012-09-05 06:40:02 PM

Jurodan: PonceAlyosha: Jurodan: shower_in_my_socks: Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?

I'm sorry, two pre-emptive wars? I think we were pretty well justified when it came to Afghanistan, thank you very much.

Not really, given it was Saudi terrorists who attacked us.

The leader of their organization was hiding in Afghanistan. The training camp the terrorists went to was in Afghanistan. What should we have done? Attacked the entire middle east?


NEVERMIND ALL THAT IT WAS THE SAUDIS!!!!

Why do you keep injecting rationality into this mess?
 
2012-09-05 07:24:47 PM
PunGent:
Yes, that whole "waiting for evidence" thing is pretty novel. And welcome, since there's a LOT of shifty countries out there. And, yes, the wingnuts yelled at those of us here who opposed the Iraq invasion as well.

Nothing quite like being called a traitor by people who, unlike me, have never worn the uniform, and won't ever get within 10,000 miles of a combat zone.

/thanks for helping us in Afghanistan
//you were smart to stay out of Iraq, depending in where in Europe you are
///Trans-Atlantic fistbump

Ireland. So neutral but sort of involved in that we gave you use of our Shannon airport base to refuel. And have had to ask ourselves some awkward questions about who were on some of those flights and why you were flying away from Iraq towards countries where torturing prisoners is legal.

Other than that, we didn't really help you in either conflict (Sorry!) Not as a country anyway. Those that wanted to get involved more directly joined the Irish regiments in the British army. Despite the somewhat acrimonious history between ourselves and the UK, that's still a fairly common thing for young people here to do.
 
2012-09-05 07:48:43 PM

Porous Horace: What I gathered from that article is that Israel wants the US to at least make a firm statement about Iran.

But it's nice to see all the Jew hate, reminds me of why Israel is necessary.


Oh noes, a free people dare to criticize right-wing manipulation into another unnecessary middle eastern war, ANTI SEMITES. People disapproving of Israels deceitful policies on Iran, unless.for the first time in 30 years they're not lying about Iran's nuclear capabilities, is worse than hitler's ovens! Every time you farking cowards use that tired dog whistle you diminish the true horror and suffering that true victims of anti-semitism have suffered. You should farking be ashamed to look yourself in the mirror you unmitigated pussy.
 
2012-09-05 08:09:11 PM

DesktopHippie: PunGent:
Yes, that whole "waiting for evidence" thing is pretty novel. And welcome, since there's a LOT of shifty countries out there. And, yes, the wingnuts yelled at those of us here who opposed the Iraq invasion as well.

Nothing quite like being called a traitor by people who, unlike me, have never worn the uniform, and won't ever get within 10,000 miles of a combat zone.

/thanks for helping us in Afghanistan
//you were smart to stay out of Iraq, depending in where in Europe you are
///Trans-Atlantic fistbump

Ireland. So neutral but sort of involved in that we gave you use of our Shannon airport base to refuel. And have had to ask ourselves some awkward questions about who were on some of those flights and why you were flying away from Iraq towards countries where torturing prisoners is legal.

Other than that, we didn't really help you in either conflict (Sorry!) Not as a country anyway. Those that wanted to get involved more directly joined the Irish regiments in the British army. Despite the somewhat acrimonious history between ourselves and the UK, that's still a fairly common thing for young people here to do.


Huh...just looked it up, I'd always thought Ireland was part of NATO, the web says no.
 
2012-09-05 08:14:27 PM
Well, you know, after millennia of telling yourself that you're God's chosen people I guess it becomes instinctive to assume that other nations are just there to kiss your ass all the time.
 
2012-09-05 08:21:10 PM
fark the evangelical loonies and let Israel fend for itself. They've already got more nukes and are better-armed than anyone in the region. Let God look after its "chosen".
 
2012-09-05 09:33:39 PM
Everyone keeps missing the point. Yes, US wouldn't have to help Israel to strike Iran, IF (and that's a big IF) it wouldn't push Israel by eny means possible NOT to attack Iran unilaterally while it still could. US has applied tremendous pressure that Israel would not strike, and thus all the window was lost, and now Iran has very strong air defence systems, most of its nuclear sites are too deep underground for Israel to reach with available weapons and damage it can do is not so great. If it could be done a year or two ago - it would cripple Iranian nuclear program - but not anymore. Now US has pushed Israel not to strike, promising that it won't aabndon Israel and won't allow nuclear Iran.

Just saying "OK, deal with it yourselves, we wash our hands" would simply be a betrayal and a shame. What will happen then - nobody in the world would ever believe US promises of help and protection anymore. And US are STILL pushing for Israel to hold its attack until US election. If you do that - keep your promises and heklp with the strike. If you don't want to help - you shouldn't have meddleed in Israel's affairs and kept it from striking unilaterally. It's that simple.
 
2012-09-05 09:41:02 PM

clevershark: Well, you know, after millennia of telling yourself that you're God's chosen people I guess it becomes instinctive to assume that other nations are just there to kiss your ass all the time.


Wait, when did we start talking about China?
 
2012-09-05 09:43:40 PM
For farks sake, I dont know why I'm surprised so many dumbasses dont understand there is more at play than Israel simply wanting the US to get into a war with Iran. Behind closed doors, the entire world wants the US to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons because it will cause a nuclear arms race in the entire region, a region not stable enough for nuclear weapons. Not to mention that little thing called the Nuclear Non-Proliferations Treaty that Iran signed, but that's semantics, I mean, who really takes those international treaties serious?
 
2012-09-05 09:56:56 PM

UnspokenVoice: MrBallou: Headso: Here's part of a NY Times story from 1995...

Iran is much closer to producing nuclear weapons than previously thought, and could be less than five years away from having an atomic bomb, several senior American and Israeli officials say.

"The date by which Iran will have nuclear weapons is no longer 10 years from now," a senior official said recently, referring to previous estimates.

Even if the did manage to make a bomb, it's not like they're the USSR with thousands of them and ICBMs to put them on. At most they could do 1/10 the damage done in any of the recent conventional wars around there and they have incentive not to. They know they would be hammered into the earth if they ever did. If they even want a bomb, they only want it for dick-waving purposes.

Israel is clearly the bad guy here. I'm more worried about them using their nucs (hypocrisy, anyone?) than Iran.

Your fears and your beliefs don't make it hypocrisy. It makes it speculation from an impartial observer who likely doesn't have any training to make their gesticulations and spasms worth interpreting. That is, of course, unless you've access to some data we don't have access to and/or are actually an intelligence specialist, maybe political scientist, military data analyst, or the likes?

No?

Then, no, that's not hypocrisy. That's just you wetting your pants in public again.


Wow, harsh.

I was referring to the idea that one side claims it is ok for them to have the weapon but it is not ok for the other side to have it. If hypocrisy is not the right term, I invite you to supply your own.

My pants are fine, but thanks for your interest.
 
2012-09-05 10:06:27 PM
it sounds pretty rational in here...you bunch of jew haters.

i like rational discussion pertaining to this topic.

afterall...we all poop.

: )
 
2012-09-05 10:23:39 PM

Dinki: As a concerned USA citizen that wants Israel, Iran and all the other middle eastern countries to live in peace and security, let me say this- Israel, go screw yourself. Iran having a nuclear weapon is no more a threat to you than Pakistan having one. The Iranians know that should they ever attack Israel with a nuke, the Israelis would wipe out every Iranian city. Iran may be a lot of things, but they aren't suicidal.


It's not like Iran having to send children into Iraq's minefields, just so they didn't lose a tank.

Oh, I'm sorry, you said Suicidal, not homicidal.

Nah, those filthy islamist don't care about lives.
 
2012-09-05 10:30:41 PM

DesktopHippie: Popping in to give the opinion of a random person from the European side of the Atlantic.

I like that your president seems to wait for actual evidence that a country is manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, rather than blundering into the first country that looks shifty. Especially since, when any of us over here dared to suggest the last time around that that might not be the smartest plan, we were screamed at for being "undemocratic freedom haters". We're also a hell of a lot more likely to support you in any new conflict, since your current president has done a lot of work to rebuild bridges here that weren't so much burned by the last guy as they were nuked into oblivion.

/I'm not even going to get into the whole Palestine/Israel stuff
//It's a horribly complicated, awful situation that's ten times worse than anything we went through
///And Gods knows we went through enough


Oh Sweet Babby Geebus, you're an filthy limey.

Please, tell us of your hardships. No, don't. Don't care, DIAF.

As if Britain has any standing in the world anymore, just another beggar, maybe a nicer hat in hand than most, but still a beggar.
 
2012-09-05 10:36:27 PM

Gyrfalcon: Jurodan: PonceAlyosha: Jurodan: shower_in_my_socks: Iran bombs Israel = our oil prices go up
Israel bombs Iran = our oil prices go up

Sorry, guys. It's kind of lose-lose for us. We already wasted a couple of trillion dollars of our taxpayers' money on two pre-emptive wars in your region. How about you pick up the next one with that fancy military we bought for you?

I'm sorry, two pre-emptive wars? I think we were pretty well justified when it came to Afghanistan, thank you very much.

Not really, given it was Saudi terrorists who attacked us.

The leader of their organization was hiding in Afghanistan. The training camp the terrorists went to was in Afghanistan. What should we have done? Attacked the entire middle east?

NEVERMIND ALL THAT IT WAS THE SAUDIS!!!!

Why do you keep injecting rationality into this mess?


It's the easiest way to troll the threat.
 
2012-09-05 11:30:37 PM

Gdalescrboz: For farks sake, I dont know why I'm surprised so many dumbasses dont understand there is more at play than Israel simply wanting the US to get into a war with Iran. Behind closed doors, the entire world wants the US to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons because it will cause a nuclear arms race in the entire region, a region not stable enough for nuclear weapons. Not to mention that little thing called the Nuclear Non-Proliferations Treaty that Iran signed, but that's semantics, I mean, who really takes those international treaties serious?


Sorry, everyone's too busy hating Jews to care.

/criticism of Israel doesn't make them anti-semitic
//criticism of Israel based on blood libels and outright lies is what makes them anti-semitic
 
2012-09-05 11:50:34 PM

Tatterdemalian: Gdalescrboz: For farks sake, I dont know why I'm surprised so many dumbasses dont understand there is more at play than Israel simply wanting the US to get into a war with Iran. Behind closed doors, the entire world wants the US to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons because it will cause a nuclear arms race in the entire region, a region not stable enough for nuclear weapons. Not to mention that little thing called the Nuclear Non-Proliferations Treaty that Iran signed, but that's semantics, I mean, who really takes those international treaties serious?

Sorry, everyone's too busy hating Jews to care.

/criticism of Israel doesn't make them anti-semitic
//criticism of Israel based on blood libels and outright lies is what makes them anti-semitic


The most notorious guys around here, and I think everyone knows who I'm talking about, always begin with making a somewhat plausible case, and then tip their hand almost immediately by using quote mining of Zionists, and then move right on to "well if the Jews weren't such douchebags then why was everybody always trying to kick their asses?" Bonus points go to minimizing the Holocaust and then saying either the Jews brought it on themselves and/or it was part of their nefarious plan to snatch Palestine.

I don't see them in this thread, though.
 
2012-09-06 12:44:43 AM
and behind it all...is ufo secrecy.

it's all bullshiat.
 
2012-09-06 12:56:38 AM
Israel - shmizrael.
 
2012-09-06 03:49:22 AM
You know, Bush repeatedly "took a tough public position" on Iran, but that's all he seemed to do, talk tough. Eventually all his macho bluster with no concrete way to back it up just made us look weak and ineffective.

Obama on the other had doesn't seem to feel the need to pop off and try to look tough. Instead, he's quietly working against their nuclear program in subtle, yet effective ways, like having sophisticated computer viruses created to attack their centrifuges, and whacking their nuclear scientists.

You actually can wage war without resorting to battle tanks and countless billions spent. It's a shame Bush never understood this.
 
2012-09-06 06:16:30 AM

Dr Dreidel: PsiChick: Israel is full of real, living people. They don't deserve to be someone's sacrificial lamb masturbatory apocalyptic fantasy. No one does.

I wonder sometimes what would happen if we got rid of anyone who seriously thought Israel was integral to the end times (well, anyone who believed "the end times" was a real thing should be disqualified, but let's not get crazy).

Would AIPAC be so powerful a lobby if 3/4 of Congress didn't feel religiously compelled to genuflect to Israel? Would foreign aid to Israel be anything other than a footnote in the budget? Would there be a peace treaty absent too many damn cooks with their own homemade recipes?


You know, even if you take this line of religious reasoning seriously, what exactly do they think is going to happen if the "holy land" isn't held by Jews and Christians when Judgement rolls around?

Apocalypse canceled on account of Muhammadan?

Even God's afraid of brown people now?
 
2012-09-06 06:20:56 AM

JustTheTip: You know, Bush repeatedly "took a tough public position" on Iran, but that's all he seemed to do, talk tough. Eventually all his macho bluster with no concrete way to back it up just made us look weak and ineffective.


He also missed a giant opportunity to settle matters diplomatically shortly after we took out Iran's biggest enemy in the region. Dinner Jacket wasn't in the equation yet, and there was a good chance even the "Axis of Evil speech" hatchet could have been buried at that point.

But he had to double-down on that derp.
 
2012-09-06 12:07:38 PM

romandesign: Everyone keeps missing the point. Yes, US wouldn't have to help Israel to strike Iran, IF (and that's a big IF) it wouldn't push Israel by eny means possible NOT to attack Iran unilaterally while it still could. US has applied tremendous pressure that Israel would not strike, and thus all the window was lost, and now Iran has very strong air defence systems, most of its nuclear sites are too deep underground for Israel to reach with available weapons and damage it can do is not so great. If it could be done a year or two ago - it would cripple Iranian nuclear program - but not anymore. Now US has pushed Israel not to strike, promising that it won't aabndon Israel and won't allow nuclear Iran.

Just saying "OK, deal with it yourselves, we wash our hands" would simply be a betrayal and a shame. What will happen then - nobody in the world would ever believe US promises of help and protection anymore. And US are STILL pushing for Israel to hold its attack until US election. If you do that - keep your promises and heklp with the strike. If you don't want to help - you shouldn't have meddleed in Israel's affairs and kept it from striking unilaterally. It's that simple.


They've been working on those underground sites for much longer than a couple of years.
 
2012-09-06 12:25:52 PM
PunGent:
They've been working on those underground sites for much longer than a couple of years.

Sure, but they are fortifying it vigorously and moving sensitive equipment there for the last year or two. Couple of years ago Israel could possibly destroy and cripple Iran's nuclear program. Now, thanks to US pressure and Iran dedication - it could only delay it for a couple of years, which makes it of questionable value considering cost, lifes and planes lost in combat and a certain start of 3rd Lebanon war in retaliation to the strike.

Considering US pressure on Israel not to attack, now that all sanctions and diplomatic means proved to be absolutely useless (which anyone familiar with middle east and Iran knew from the beginning), now US has a moral obligation to either attack Iran itself, or jointly with Israel. However Israel is being put under the bus for the sake of coming election.
 
2012-09-06 12:54:16 PM

romandesign: Couple of years ago Israel could possibly destroy and cripple Iran's nuclear program. Now, thanks to US pressure and Iran dedication - it could only delay it for a couple of years,


"Cripple" is a pretty strong word.

You should use "handicap" instead.
 
2012-09-07 05:56:55 PM

romandesign: PunGent:
They've been working on those underground sites for much longer than a couple of years.

Sure, but they are fortifying it vigorously and moving sensitive equipment there for the last year or two. Couple of years ago Israel could possibly destroy and cripple Iran's nuclear program. Now, thanks to US pressure and Iran dedication - it could only delay it for a couple of years, which makes it of questionable value considering cost, lifes and planes lost in combat and a certain start of 3rd Lebanon war in retaliation to the strike.

Considering US pressure on Israel not to attack, now that all sanctions and diplomatic means proved to be absolutely useless (which anyone familiar with middle east and Iran knew from the beginning), now US has a moral obligation to either attack Iran itself, or jointly with Israel. However Israel is being put under the bus for the sake of coming election.


Last I checked, Israel was a sovereign nation. They could've gone in on their own at any time.

Since they chose not to...perhaps the threat isn't as severe as their hard liners claim.

Otoh, If they were UNABLE to take care of the problem on their own, they've got to accept any and all strings on third parties...like us...bailing them out.

It's not like we haven't given them enough money.
 
2012-09-07 09:26:42 PM

PunGent: romandesign: PunGent:
They've been working on those underground sites for much longer than a couple of years.

Sure, but they are fortifying it vigorously and moving sensitive equipment there for the last year or two. Couple of years ago Israel could possibly destroy and cripple Iran's nuclear program. Now, thanks to US pressure and Iran dedication - it could only delay it for a couple of years, which makes it of questionable value considering cost, lifes and planes lost in combat and a certain start of 3rd Lebanon war in retaliation to the strike.

Considering US pressure on Israel not to attack, now that all sanctions and diplomatic means proved to be absolutely useless (which anyone familiar with middle east and Iran knew from the beginning), now US has a moral obligation to either attack Iran itself, or jointly with Israel. However Israel is being put under the bus for the sake of coming election.

Last I checked, Israel was a sovereign nation. They could've gone in on their own at any time.

Since they chose not to...perhaps the threat isn't as severe as their hard liners claim.

Otoh, If they were UNABLE to take care of the problem on their own, they've got to accept any and all strings on third parties...like us...bailing them out.

It's not like we haven't given them enough money.


Israel cannot ignore US pressure, it's just not possible, especially considering how much US helps Israel. If a good friend of yours that has been helpoing you for decades deomands that you don't do something, can yo ignore him even if you thing he's wrong? The whole "peace process" and ill-fated Oaslo Accords was Clinton's doing and that has cost Israel dearly (anybody who understands this conflict knew that palestinians would not agree to peace because they don't want peace, they only want destruction of Israel, however irrational and impossible that is, and won't compromise on anything because of that). It's justnot done. If US asks and pressures to delay Iran attack - Israel has to politely do as they told. So if you want Israel to do its own thing - don't meddle with Israel's afairs, and if you do meddle and prevent military strike when it was feasible - now morally you'd have to help with the strike because by dictating delays and promising that you won't let Iran go nuclear you caused Israel to miss window of opportunity for the srike..

Oh and don't give me that "US as been giving so much money and help to Israel without self-intersted out of pure golden heart" speech. US has used Israel in proxy war with USSR and now Russia, who actively tries to expand their sphere of influence, and against islamist states to keep america's enemies busy. US has given Israel money and weapons but Israelis lost and keep losing lives in fighting US enemies and doing US weapons the best possible advertizing, while destroying reputation of russian weapons. So US and Israel's inerests align for the most part, and if they ever stop aligning US help will end in an instant. In 60-s and 70-s US was refusing to sell weapons to Israel, not just not giving weapons and credits.
 
2012-09-08 10:14:13 AM

romandesign: PunGent: romandesign: PunGent:
They've been working on those underground sites for much longer than a couple of years.

Sure, but they are fortifying it vigorously and moving sensitive equipment there for the last year or two. Couple of years ago Israel could possibly destroy and cripple Iran's nuclear program. Now, thanks to US pressure and Iran dedication - it could only delay it for a couple of years, which makes it of questionable value considering cost, lifes and planes lost in combat and a certain start of 3rd Lebanon war in retaliation to the strike.

Considering US pressure on Israel not to attack, now that all sanctions and diplomatic means proved to be absolutely useless (which anyone familiar with middle east and Iran knew from the beginning), now US has a moral obligation to either attack Iran itself, or jointly with Israel. However Israel is being put under the bus for the sake of coming election.

Last I checked, Israel was a sovereign nation. They could've gone in on their own at any time.

Since they chose not to...perhaps the threat isn't as severe as their hard liners claim.

Otoh, If they were UNABLE to take care of the problem on their own, they've got to accept any and all strings on third parties...like us...bailing them out.

It's not like we haven't given them enough money.

Israel cannot ignore US pressure, it's just not possible, especially considering how much US helps Israel. If a good friend of yours that has been helpoing you for decades deomands that you don't do something, can yo ignore him even if you thing he's wrong? The whole "peace process" and ill-fated Oaslo Accords was Clinton's doing and that has cost Israel dearly (anybody who understands this conflict knew that palestinians would not agree to peace because they don't want peace, they only want destruction of Israel, however irrational and impossible that is, and won't compromise on anything because of that). It's justnot done. If US asks and pressures to delay Iran attack ...


The Palestinians have behaved badly, no question. But unless Israel is prepared to commit genocide, they've got to live somewhere.

Offer them a REAL homeland, it's the only thing that hasn't been tried yet.

Afa 'puppet state', you can't have it both ways. You blame the US for selling Israel weapons and NOT selling them weapons. Pick one and stick to it.
 
2012-09-08 10:47:03 AM
First, I'm not blaming US. Each state naturally pursues its on interestsm US is no different. And Israel is for sure grateful for all help, though it's not a "puppet state" by far. It's just that people here are blaming Israel for relying on US promises and say "why do we have to help them?" and I explained why: you wouldn't have to help if you'd let Israel strike while it could, and by preventing it now you'd have to help.

As for palestinians, sure they have to live somwehere, and I'm OK (as most Israelis) with the idea of palestinian state. After all the would get it in 1948 if they chose to proclaim it instead of boycotting UN resolution and starting a war. The problem is everything feasible has already been offered to them at Camp David: all of their land with compensation of land of equal value for the settlements that couldn't be moved, shared authority of East Jerusalem with their capital there (very hard for most israelis to swollow), right of refugees to return to palestinnian state (not Israel of course, as 4 million claimed refugee descendants can't be feasibly asorbed in 5 million state). Basically all that would be even theoretically possible, and in return that would only need to renounce terror and officially recognize Israel. And Arafat still refused it... Israel doesnt' have anything more to offer. Palestinans are only set on total destrucion of Israel or war to the death, they are willingly sending their children and are content with their grand-children fighting an endless war... There's nothing one can do about that. Israel also unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and removed all settlements. And look what happened there...

They could have their state and peace any time - just recognize Israel and stop terror.

This war will end when palestinians will learn to love their children more than they hate jews.
 
2012-09-08 03:55:57 PM
the terrorist state of "israel" should not be in palestine.

that would solve everything.
 
2012-09-08 09:32:40 PM

Bauer: the terrorist state of "israel" should not be in palestine.

that would solve everything.


Thank you for illustrating my point! Precisely what I said: uncapable of compromise and full of hate - that's the only reason palestinians don't have their state and peace.

Absolute majority of Israelies would never say things like that about palestinians.
 
Displayed 209 of 209 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report