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(Fox Business)   Five graduate degrees that don't pay off. MA in Philosophy strangely absent   (foxbusiness.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, academic degrees, return on investments, interpersonal skills, Tisch School of the Arts, law degrees, computer engineering, bachelor's degrees, master's degrees  
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7807 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Sep 2012 at 7:06 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-04 04:00:27 PM  
Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology

A plan for this.
Step one: join the ranks of Libertarians. Start a blah blah blog, blather on fark etc.
Step two: Deny Climate Change
Step three: Get a kushy job with the Krotch brothers or the Rand institute etc, deny climate change for a living.

Step four: Profit.
 
2012-09-04 04:03:41 PM  
#6 - Library and Information Science.
 
2012-09-04 04:10:22 PM  

hb0mb: #6 - Library and Information Science.


Aw.
 
2012-09-04 04:14:39 PM  
Five graduate degrees that don't pay off, with an example picture of a high school diploma.
 
2012-09-04 04:28:14 PM  
unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.
 
2012-09-04 05:08:37 PM  

Donnchadha: Five graduate degrees that don't pay off, with an example picture of a high school diploma.


Maybe if there were more of an economic incentive to obtain graduate degrees in sourcing relavent images we wouldn't have to put up with these inaccuracies
 
2012-09-04 05:14:14 PM  

Donnchadha: Five graduate degrees that don't pay off, with an example picture of a high school diploma.


From a high school named after Booker T. Washington, and since this is a Fox link the message must be to remind us that he was a man who knew his place. A fine advisor to presidents, but he would never be as presumptuous as Obongo as to actually think he could be president.
 
2012-09-04 05:30:48 PM  

thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.


Let me edit that for you.

"Don't go to law school."

If just one generation took that advice we'd be a better country. Y'know after we take Dick the Butcher's advice.
 
2012-09-04 05:34:31 PM  

doglover: Y'know after we take Dick the Butcher's advice.


you might want to re-read henry VI - that's not the slight against lawyers that you think it is.
 
2012-09-04 05:39:47 PM  

thomps: doglover: Y'know after we take Dick the Butcher's advice.

you might want to re-read henry VI - that's not the slight against lawyers that you think it is.


You might wanna stop the masturbatory mental gymnastics.

"The first thing we do, we kill all the lawyers."

You can play games all day and call black white and cats dogs, but when it comes down to it there's one interpretation of this quote that's correct: lawyers suck.
 
2012-09-04 05:43:28 PM  

thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.


"Don't go to a tier 4 law school" seems timid advice.
 
2012-09-04 06:00:10 PM  
Not entirely true, subby. Philosophers with an 'S' in their name can do quite well, I'm told.
 
2012-09-04 06:03:28 PM  

doglover: thomps: doglover: Y'know after we take Dick the Butcher's advice.

you might want to re-read henry VI - that's not the slight against lawyers that you think it is.

You might wanna stop the masturbatory mental gymnastics.

"The first thing we do, we kill all the lawyers."

You can play games all day and call black white and cats dogs, but when it comes down to it there's one interpretation of this quote that's correct: lawyers suck.


no, you're right, context is for assholes.
 
2012-09-04 06:11:24 PM  
Few people are unfamiliar with the phrase The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyer. Rueful, mocking, it often expresses the ordinary person's frustration with the arcana and complexity of law. Sometimes it's known known that the saying comes from one of Shakespeare's plays, but usually there's little awareness beyond that. This gap in knowledge has inspired a myth of "correction", where it is "explained" that this is line really intended as a praise of the lawyer's role.

For example, one legal firm states:

"The first thing we do," said the character in Shakespeare's Henry VI, is "kill all the lawyers." Contrary to popular belief, the proposal was not designed to restore sanity to commercial life. Rather, it was intended to eliminate those who might stand in the way of a contemplated revolution -- thus underscoring the important role that lawyers can play in society."

The argument of this remark as in fact being favorable to lawyers is a marvel of sophistry, twisting of the meaning of words in unfamiliar source, disregard of the evident intent of the original author and ad hominem attack. Whoever first came up with this interpretation surely must have been a lawyer.

The line is actually uttered by a character "Dick The Butcher". While he's a killer as evil as his name implies, he often makes highly comedic and amusing statements. The wisecracking villain is not an invention of modern action movies, it dates back to Shakespeare and beyond.

The setup for the "kill the lawyers" statement is the ending portion of a comedic relief part of a scene in Henry VI, part 2. Dick and another henchman, Smith are members of the gang of Jack Cade, a pretender to the throne. The built-up is long portion where Cade make vain boasts, which are cut down by sarcastic replies from the others.
 
2012-09-04 06:12:59 PM  
For example:

JACK CADE.
Valiant I am.

SMITH [aside].
'A must needs; for beggary is valiant.

JACK CADE.
I am able to endure much.

DICK [aside].
No question of that; for I have seen him whipp'd three market-days together.

JACK CADE.
I fear neither sword nor fire.

SMITH [aside].
He need not fear the sword; for his coat is of proof.

DICK [aside].
But methinks he should stand in fear of fire, being burnt i' th'hand for stealing of sheep.

You can almost hear the rim-shot after everything Dick or Smith say here.
 
2012-09-04 06:13:45 PM  
Cade proceeds to go more and more over the top, and begins to describe his absurd ideal world:

JACK CADE.
Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven half-penny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king,- as king I will be,-

ALL.
God save your majesty!

Appreciated and encouraged, he continues on in this vein:

JACK CADE.
I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

And here is where Dick speaks the famous line.

DICK.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

The audience must have doubled over in laughter at this. Far from "eliminating those who might stand in the way of a contemplated revolution" or portraying lawyers as "guardians of independent thinking", it's offered as the best feature imagined of yet for utopia. It's hilarious. A very rough and simplistic modern translation would be "When I'm the King, there'll be two cars in every garage, and a chicken in every pot" "AND NO LAWYERS". It's a clearly lawyer-bashing joke. This is further supported by the dialogue just afterwards (which is actually quite funny even now, and must have been hilarious when the idiom was contemporary):

DICK.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

JACK CADE.
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?
 
2012-09-04 06:14:55 PM  
He might just as well have been describing "shrink-wrap" software licensing agreements today in the last sentence. To understand what Cade is saying here, you have to know that documents of the time were likely parchment, and sealed with wax. So when he says "Some say the bees stings; but I say, 'tis the bee's wax". he's making an ironic comment somewhat akin to "Some men rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen". And the fact that he himself is an evil man only serves to heighten the irony, not discredit the sentiment - the more evil he is, the more the contrast is apparent.

It makes as much sense to conclude that since the "kill the lawyers" joke is expressed by villains, who later commit murderous deeds "there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score" is an approval of Libertarian thought, and a warning about Communists.
 
2012-09-04 06:15:53 PM  
Now, just after this exchange, the scene changes tone. The gang commits the murder of the clerk of chatham. Here is the second level of Shakespeare's commentary on law and layers, where the murder is carried out according to scrupulous procedure, a parody of law:

JACK CADE.
I am sorry for't: the man is a proper man, of mine honour; unless I find him guilty, he shall not die.- Come hither, sirrah, I must examine thee: what is thy name?

By this contrast Shakespeare thus makes in an alternating, connected, comedic and tragic manner the age-old point about the difference between *law* (and those who argue it) and *justice*. Cade makes up his "version" of law to his own ends, to the justification of his evil deeds, which is reminiscent of the context which commonly provokes "kill the lawyers" (where the phrase is in wry protest of actions thought to be the same in form, if not in degree). Far from being "out of context" the usage is more true to the original than most people know.
 
2012-09-04 06:16:40 PM  
But y'know, it's actually a pro lawyer statement...
 
2012-09-04 06:16:56 PM  
doglover is right. Lawyers are assholes.
 
2012-09-04 06:23:43 PM  

Mugato: doglover is right. Lawyers are assholes.


"Brevity is the soul of wit."
 
2012-09-04 06:25:21 PM  

Mugato: doglover is right.


encrypted-tbn3.google.com

Was there ever any doubt?
 
2012-09-04 06:27:18 PM  

doglover: But y'know, it's actually a pro lawyer statement...


it looks like fark ate my first attempt at this post so apologies if it posts twice.

i appreciate that you can google "kill all the lawyers" and then copy pasta the first link, but even taking that interpretation, it's demagoguery aimed at the basest instincts of the common people of the time in an attempt to spark an autocratic power-grab. not exactly an earnest critique of lawyers.
 
2012-09-04 07:19:31 PM  

thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.


Not every Lawyer wants to be a corporate raider. a friend of mine lives a happy and contented life just doing adoptions.
 
2012-09-04 07:32:34 PM  

Pauly Math: hb0mb: #6 - Library and Information Science.

Aw.


I don't know about that. For the record, I administer the Document Management System for my org - a regional government in Western Canada. We add about 6,000 documents to it per week - purchase orders, correspondance, records of physical objects, etc. We spent a half-million dollars to purchase a system just to categorize and store all that. Coming up on 2 million documents, and I know we're small potatoes compared to some of the installs of the product we use (OpenText Livelink).

Now, I can configure this system however I want. Apply as much or as little metadata to it that I want. Retrieve what I want. But I haven't the foggiest on what that metadata should be, or what the users really want to see when the search (beyond the obvious). I don't really know the science of how people search, what they look for, how they look for it. For that, I rely on our Records Custodians, who do have Library degrees and are able to do that. They just need me to implement that in our system.

Anyway, it would seem to me, just based on my experience, that companies and entities are generating more and more amounts of data - data that will have to classified and categorized and easily retrievable.
 
2012-09-04 07:33:24 PM  

hb0mb: #6 - Library and Information Science.


Eh, I've found that librarianship strikes the perfect balance between my unwillingness to work very hard, my desire to earn a decent living, and my desire for (relative) job security. I could probably make more money doing other things, but I think I've struck the right balance.

That said, anybody who spends more than one year in an LIS program and is unwilling to relocate for a job or doesn't already have a librarian job lined up when they enter the program is foolish.
 
2012-09-04 07:45:06 PM  
FTFA Computer Engineering - his client base doesn't place a high priority on graduate education


I never check to see if someone has even a bachelors degree when I interview IT recruits.
 
2012-09-04 07:45:57 PM  

rugman11: hb0mb: #6 - Library and Information Science.

Eh, I've found that librarianship strikes the perfect balance between my unwillingness to work very hard, my desire to earn a decent living, and my desire for (relative) job security. I could probably make more money doing other things, but I think I've struck the right balance.

That said, anybody who spends more than one year in an LIS program and is unwilling to relocate for a job or doesn't already have a librarian job lined up when they enter the program is foolish.


Yea, that's me admittedly. Luckily, my MRS degree is paying much better than a librarian job ever would and I'm enjoying being a stay-at-home mom more than I ever enjoyed working. So I've got that going for me.
 
2012-09-04 08:13:23 PM  

hb0mb:
Yea, that's me admittedly. Luckily, my MRS degree is paying much better than a librarian job ever would and I'm enjoying being a stay-at-home mom more than I ever enjoyed working. So I've got that going for me.


Well you're definitely not alone if that makes you feel any better. I blame the ALA, though, for devaluing the MLIS degree. They've spent decades pumping the myth of the impending librarian shortage and cranking out more and more graduates despite the increasing obviousness of the situation that, no, librarians are not, nor will they be retiring en masse and most of those that do are going to be replaced by part timers or paraprofessionals.

Then, now that they've damn near tanked the profession (or at least heavily skewed the supply and demand factors) so badly that wages are barely keeping up with inflation and the occupation has grown 4 percent in the past decade (compared with 6 percent for Library Technicians, 6 percent for Library Science educators, and 13 percent for the Education, Training, and Library Occupations in general) they have the gall to say that "the profit-centered, corporation-based measures valued by Forbes suggest that pay rates and growth are the only valid reasons for selecting a career or seeking an advanced degree. While it is true that for some individuals these factors are the principal focus, for librarians the primary motivation is job satisfaction derived from the opportunity to make a significant difference in the lives of others. Librarians find fulfillment in their work because they provide essential services for patrons of public, school, college, university and other libraries."
 
2012-09-04 08:15:01 PM  
I thought I was going to read about crappy graduate degrees and I get a lesson on Shakespeare. Only on fark.
 
2012-09-04 08:16:22 PM  

gingerjet: FTFA Computer Engineering - his client base doesn't place a high priority on graduate education


I never check to see if someone has even a bachelors degree when I interview IT recruits.


Where I work in IT, if you don't have at least a bachelor's degree your resume goes directly into the shredder. It's a competitive industry in the DC area and an undergraduate degree is a basic signalling device that shows you can at least put your mind to something and complete it. Which is a quality that is lacking for a surprising number of candidates.

There are plenty of qualified applicants left over.
 
2012-09-04 08:17:12 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: I thought I was going to read about crappy graduate degrees and I get a lesson on Shakespeare. Only on fark.


Did you know that Shakespeare only had one testicle?
 
2012-09-04 08:25:53 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Pumpernickel bread: I thought I was going to read about crappy graduate degrees and I get a lesson on Shakespeare. Only on fark.

Did you know that Shakespeare only had one testicle?


The left or right? Just trying to figure out if he is somehow related to Lance Armstong.
 
2012-09-04 08:33:18 PM  
Where would art history fall?

We had a girl hired on a previous company to help run projects and after the first hour of all her questions over a lunch meeting I knew she wouldn't be able to do the job. But she had a masters in art and they decided to hire her, personally I think she was hired because of her tits she always had on display. She was pretty but stupid, horrible at trying to flirt, and terrible in bed.....
 
2012-09-04 08:34:55 PM  

thomps: doglover: But y'know, it's actually a pro lawyer statement...

it looks like fark ate my first attempt at this post so apologies if it posts twice.

i appreciate that you can google "kill all the lawyers" and then copy pasta the first link, but even taking that interpretation, it's demagoguery aimed at the basest instincts of the common people of the time in an attempt to spark an autocratic power-grab. not exactly an earnest critique of lawyers.


No, it's not an in depth critique. It's just a comic relief character saying "Kill all the lawyers." because people don't like lawyers.
 
2012-09-04 08:38:44 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Did you know that Shakespeare only had one testicle?


You know who else...
 
2012-09-04 08:43:26 PM  

thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.


What if I don't want to practice law, but want to be able to write my own contracts?
 
2012-09-04 08:46:28 PM  
NO YOU!
 
2012-09-04 08:59:17 PM  
@Rent Party - It would be cheaper just to hire a lawyer.
 
2012-09-04 09:00:11 PM  
They forgot MBA.
 
2012-09-04 09:00:26 PM  
Published June 27, 2012

Old news is exciting.

/MPA, the thinking man's MBA 
//Also, the poor man's MBA
 
2012-09-04 09:01:10 PM  
The Georgetown study saw just a 16% boost in pay for students with graduate degrees in computer engineering.

Just? I wish I could get "just" a 16% pay raise.
 
2012-09-04 09:04:20 PM  
Because People in power are Stupid
Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology

A plan for this.
Step one: join the ranks of Libertarians. Start a blah blah blog, blather on fark etc.

Go to law school.
Step two: Deny Climate Change
Step three: Get a kushy job with the Krotch brothers or the Rand institute etc, deny climate change for a living.

Step four: Profit.


Tried and true for many years.
 
2012-09-04 09:14:54 PM  

Kanemano: thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.

Not every Lawyer wants to be a corporate raider. a friend of mine lives a happy and contented life just doing adoptions.


Indeed, thanks for pointing that out. Among our friends, we probably have at least a dozen lawyers, most of whom attended 3rd/4th tier schools. And most of them have had similar success in life.
 
2012-09-04 09:15:57 PM  

Kanemano: thomps: unless you have a job waiting for you upon graduation, don't go to law school if you can't get into a tier one law school. don't even consider it.

Not every Lawyer wants to be a corporate raider. a friend of mine lives a happy and contented life just doing adoptions.


True. However, law school tuition has gotten absolutely insane. The wages in anywhere but the top firms don't justify the debt. State schools may be the rare exception, and even then it is not cheap by any means.

Moreover, law (the high level practice) is a really tough career, with a really high burn out rate. Those aren't the kind of odds to put well over 100k in tuition on.
 
2012-09-04 09:34:01 PM  
I'm on the path to an MA in Philosophy, but not because I want a job in Philosophy, but because HR thinks people with MA's are better when it comes to promotions, though they do not specify any particular masters degree. The reason I chose Philosophy is all of the text books are public domain and free for digital downloads.

80% of the classwork is also free online. I work for a University and get a great discount on challenging credits.

It's more of a hobby. like building a boat in the basement.
 
2012-09-04 09:42:57 PM  

thomps: i appreciate that you can google "kill all the lawyers" and then copy pasta the first link, but even taking that interpretation, it's demagoguery aimed at the basest instincts of the common people of the time in an attempt to spark an autocratic power-grab. not exactly an earnest critique of lawyers.


Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
 
2012-09-04 09:43:26 PM  
One of my friends went to a third tier law school and graduated 3 years ago. Most of the people who she went to law school with including herself aren't even working as lawyers (I'm only counting ones that passed the bar). Another friend of mine in another state who also went to a third tier law school took about 2 years to find a job as a lawyer after passing the bar and he totally hates his job. That's about all I want to know about going to law school - no thanks.
 
2012-09-04 09:48:58 PM  
As a lawyer, I'm telling anyone considering it not to do it. Attorneys have a high rate of drug addiction for a reason. If you want a good work-life balance especially don't consider it, unless you plan to go into the public sector. Sure you get paid less but you only work 40 hrs per week, get income based loan repayment, and your loans are forgiven after 120 payments.
 
2012-09-04 09:50:20 PM  

doglover: thomps: doglover: Y'know after we take Dick the Butcher's advice.

you might want to re-read henry VI - that's not the slight against lawyers that you think it is.

You might wanna stop the masturbatory mental gymnastics.

"The first thing we do, we kill all the lawyers."

You can play games all day and call black white and cats dogs, but when it comes down to it there's one interpretation of this quote that's correct: lawyers suck.


Countries with fewer lawyers per capita have higher GDP growth per annum.
 
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