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(Forbes)   How is the future Millennial job market? *shakes Magic 8-ball* Outlook not so good   (forbes.com) divider line 72
    More: Fail, Magic 8-Ball, labour economics  
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2094 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Sep 2012 at 3:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-04 12:04:01 AM
We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.
 
2012-09-04 12:34:52 AM

Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.


I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.

I don't know any neoliberal economic model, but I know that massive tax cuts in the time of war will sink your economy long term. In fact, the US had never cut taxes during a time of war before it was done in 2001 and 2003.
 
2012-09-04 12:49:22 AM

Nadie_AZ: I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.


I respectfully disagree. Once the production of humanity is sufficient, I believe we will see a new wave of artisans. The money doesn't simply disappear; it only requires something else besides survival goods to produce to get in exchange for the money. We're already seeing a shadow of that with people spending real money on virtual items. We're already seeing self-publishing on music, books, games, and, very recently, Google videos. Yes, we will always have a few farmers and computer programmers, but everyone else will be changing software.

"The chief aim of their constitution and government is that, whenever public needs permit, all citizens should be free, so far as possible, to withdraw their time and energy from the service of the body, and devote themselves to the freedom and culture of the mind. For that, they think, is the real happiness of life."
-- Sir Thomas More,
"Utopia"
 
2012-09-04 12:52:23 AM

Nadie_AZ: In fact, the US had never cut taxes during a time of war before it was done in 2001 and 2003.


It's as though the multi-national corporations manipulating our economy didn't need to be concerned about our financial well-being as a country.
 
2012-09-04 01:03:01 AM
Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.
 
2012-09-04 01:23:58 AM
Would you like fries with that magic 8 ball?
 
2012-09-04 01:26:20 AM
i2.listal.com
 
2012-09-04 02:02:58 AM
In 1973, Nixon convinced OPEC (Saudi Arabia) to price oil in dollars and that created an artificially strong dollar which attracted cheap imports and exported U.S. manufacturing. Then Clinton kept the dollar rally going by turbocharging the financial industry by deregulating derivatives, repealing Glass-Steagal and evolving Wall Street into an untended casino that turned more and more criminal every year and has perverse outcomes as a by-product. Bush didn't go after the Wall Street crooks (he transferred all the FBI financial fraud guys to fight terror), neither has Obama (no bankers, not even Corzine, charged), and Romney sure as hell won't do anything, so sorry you're working low-wage kids, but that's what happens in a kleptocracy. Neither party will help you. Notice how they both want to destabilize Syria, even if that means teaming up with Al Qaeda - anything for the Saudis as long as they keep the world's oil priced in dollars.
 
2012-09-04 03:46:00 AM

Triumph: In 1973, Nixon convinced OPEC (Saudi Arabia) to price oil in dollars and that created an artificially strong dollar which attracted cheap imports and exported U.S. manufacturing. Then Clinton kept the dollar rally going by turbocharging the financial industry by deregulating derivatives, repealing Glass-Steagal and evolving Wall Street into an untended casino that turned more and more criminal every year and has perverse outcomes as a by-product. Bush didn't go after the Wall Street crooks (he transferred all the FBI financial fraud guys to fight terror), neither has Obama (no bankers, not even Corzine, charged), and Romney sure as hell won't do anything, so sorry you're working low-wage kids, but that's what happens in a kleptocracy. Neither party will help you. Notice how they both want to destabilize Syria, even if that means teaming up with Al Qaeda - anything for the Saudis as long as they keep the world's oil priced in dollars.


bingo. politicians are not for the people. they are for the rich people.
 
2012-09-04 04:24:29 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-09-04 04:30:48 AM

Obamagalomania: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 427x320]


p.twimg.com
 
2012-09-04 05:04:05 AM

Triumph: In 1973, Nixon convinced OPEC (Saudi Arabia) to price oil in dollars and that created an artificially strong dollar which attracted cheap imports and exported U.S. manufacturing. Then Clinton kept the dollar rally going by turbocharging the financial industry by deregulating derivatives, repealing Glass-Steagal and evolving Wall Street into an untended casino that turned more and more criminal every year and has perverse outcomes as a by-product. Bush didn't go after the Wall Street crooks (he transferred all the FBI financial fraud guys to fight terror), neither has Obama (no bankers, not even Corzine, charged), and Romney sure as hell won't do anything, so sorry you're working low-wage kids, but that's what happens in a kleptocracy. Neither party will help you. Notice how they both want to destabilize Syria, even if that means teaming up with Al Qaeda - anything for the Saudis as long as they keep the world's oil priced in dollars.


Wait. I thought our country was a utopia before W took office, and the only reason Obama hasn't been able to return us to the glory of Clinton's reign is obstructionist Republicans? Our current problems are not systemic, nor do they have roots that are decades old. Also, our economy isn't effected by the global economy.

It's so simple: Republicans are the cause of, and the source of all evil in the world.
 
2012-09-04 06:07:31 AM

GAT_00: Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.


The Boomers are going to bleed us to death.
 
2012-09-04 06:10:39 AM
Actually, in the IT industry this has been true for awhile.

It is only after you've been a "merc" for some time,
where your accumulated experience can be turned around into a career arc.

Usually, you're a Senior, Lead, Manager by then.

That and the industry is doing temp to perm more...
allowing them to allocate their funds for staff differently initially...making the recruiter fee hit easier
and also making sure you're a right fit and up to snuff.
(to give them the benefit of the doubt...there are many who have the paperwork, but can't do the voodoo)

It's not until you've been in the industry for a while that you can ask for perm straight out.
 
2012-09-04 06:45:55 AM

Nadie_AZ: Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.

I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.


I came to this conclusion a while back, but as I continued to consider things I then wondered what happens when a majority can't buy things? I believe there are many possible answers to that question; the common thread of all being a restoration of the power of the middle class. Quite possibly more powerful than ever before.
 
2012-09-04 06:50:21 AM
Still better than Lotus Notes.
 
2012-09-04 06:59:44 AM

Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.


Trouble is, 99 percent of Americans don't understand what that means.
 
2012-09-04 07:06:13 AM

digistil: Nadie_AZ: Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.

I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.

I came to this conclusion a while back, but as I continued to consider things I then wondered what happens when a majority can't buy things? I believe there are many possible answers to that question; the common thread of all being a restoration of the power of the middle class. Quite possibly more powerful than ever before.



The types of people that complain about being poor spend all their time on the internet. When you go to the internet for sources of opinion all you read is poor people complaining about the mess the US is in. Thus the amount of information you gain from reading the internet is skewed towards poor people. There's a soild portion of this country buying hot tubs and jet skis and going on riverboat gambling trips.
 
2012-09-04 07:23:11 AM

angrymacface: Still better than Lotus Notes.


As someone who just took a new job as a Lotus Notes administrator, I'm getting a kick out of this.
 
2012-09-04 07:24:47 AM

sirgarr02: There's a soild portion of this country buying hot tubs and jet skis and going on riverboat gambling trips.


And refrigerators.
 
2012-09-04 07:28:26 AM

sirgarr02: digistil: Nadie_AZ: Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.

I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.

I came to this conclusion a while back, but as I continued to consider things I then wondered what happens when a majority can't buy things? I believe there are many possible answers to that question; the common thread of all being a restoration of the power of the middle class. Quite possibly more powerful than ever before.


The types of people that complain about being poor spend all their time on the internet. When you go to the internet for sources of opinion all you read is poor people complaining about the mess the US is in. Thus the amount of information you gain from reading the internet is skewed towards poor people. There's a soild portion of this country buying hot tubs and jet skis and going on riverboat gambling trips.


1. "The types of people that complain about being poor spend all their time on the internet." Citation needed.

2. How does your response relate to my 'The market will figure it out' post?
 
2012-09-04 07:50:10 AM

Nadie_AZ: I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.


To be fair, a lot of the automation removes unsafe proceedures. Humans are fragile - every last one. People can only safely life about 51 lbs under ideal cyclic lifting conditions (NIOSH). People are made of watery bags that can barely take any pressure or shear. If that's not enough, you also have to worry about sound, lighting, temperature, humidity, and particulate matter in the air. What living workers really bring to the table is cheap adaptability. Even the lowest position imaginable in a company relies on the worker's mind. This is the tougher area to automate, but we're getting better at it. A Roomba isn't a janitor. A welding robot isn't a welder. A CNC program isn't a machine operator.

Demand is largely unautomated. "Voice of the Customer" is largely unautomated. Design still has an entire side of aesthetics that's largely unautomated. I think we'll get there too someday as we get better at neurology, but there are real positions out there for people.

The funny thing is that the world can't get enough quality inspectors. Barely any are trained. No one thinks to themselves "gee, I'd like to make sure things came out right on a factory line for the rest of my life." Sure, you can and should automate the measurements, but it's tough to automate a decision like "Will the customer think that this fix was good enough?" We also don't have enough repair/maintenance people. Due to the generality of the position, it's difficult to afford an automated solution that covers enough areas. They're both highly trained jobs that someone who is seeking higher education wouldn't aim for. They're not glamorous. They're not fun. Due to the more generalized roles they play in a company, they get exposed to a larger share of the safety issues. If that's not bad enough, the higher pay is due to the difficulty of finding them and not acceptance of their need or respect for their contribution. Few people push their kid into these fields. Few people in these fields pass up the oportunity to advance out of them. Few people come out of high school knowing even the basics of modern factory systems.

There are jobs. We just haven't adjusted as a society. It all starts with a cultural respect for those fields.
 
2012-09-04 08:12:15 AM

Nadie_AZ: Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.

I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.
.


Read the short story "Mana", written by the guy who founded How Stuff Works. It's a contrast of a dystopian/utopian view of the future based on this premise; if we continue to embrace a capitalistic divide between the have and have nots, even in the face of robotic automation of most basic tasks, there seems like there will be an inevitable breakdown of our social order. We're going to have to move to either a social contract system, or a new age economy focusing on art, entertainment, research, and ideas.
 
2012-09-04 08:16:31 AM
Few people come out of high school knowing even the basics of modern factory systems.

This is probably my new favorite forum quote ever.
 
2012-09-04 08:23:57 AM
If corporations won't hire people in good faith then maybe its time for full benefits for part-time work and a tax on corporations to support the social safety net.
 
2012-09-04 08:57:08 AM
The previous comments about automation and increased productivity and efficiency are spot on. Increases in each of these metrics mean that you're able to satisfy existing demand using fewer and fewer workers. The question is... what happens when, say, only 3-5% our available workforce is needed to produce those goods? What happens to the remaining 95+% of the workforce?

I find it difficult to believe that society with transform itself into a Gene Roddenberry-style utopia where everyone else simply seeks to better themselves through art or music.
 
2012-09-04 09:12:18 AM
Guess who lives in the loser country of amerika

LOSERS
 
2012-09-04 09:16:43 AM

mjohnson71: GAT_00: Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.

The Boomers are going to bleed us to death.



Trillions to the war machine and handouts to banks and corporations but old people, yeah, they're sucking up all the resources. That's why you can't find work, that retired guy is collecting Social Security!
 
2012-09-04 09:20:56 AM

Rich Cream: mjohnson71: GAT_00: Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.

The Boomers are going to bleed us to death.


Trillions to the war machine and handouts to banks and corporations but old people, yeah, they're sucking up all the resources. That's why you can't find work, that retired guy is collecting Social Security!


No, I think it's more the fact that the old people AREN'T retired. They're running the war machine, providing handouts to the banks and running the corporations into the ground or to labor overseas.
 
2012-09-04 09:22:21 AM
Automation has a cost. Greater efficiency and productivity means fewer 'jobs' to do the same amount of work.

This has little, if anything, to do with 'liberal' or 'conservative' economic policies.
 
2012-09-04 09:23:24 AM

JasperVal: Nadie_AZ: Party Boy: We gotta be able to openly talk about the failure of the neoliberal economic model.

I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.
.

Read the short story "Mana", written by the guy who founded How Stuff Works. It's a contrast of a dystopian/utopian view of the future based on this premise; if we continue to embrace a capitalistic divide between the have and have nots, even in the face of robotic automation of most basic tasks, there seems like there will be an inevitable breakdown of our social order. We're going to have to move to either a social contract system, or a new age economy focusing on art, entertainment, research, and ideas.


Birth control in the water??
 
2012-09-04 09:30:17 AM
what we needs is more business and competition in each sector; We currently are experiencing a dearth of capitalist enterprise within the united states.
 
2012-09-04 09:38:05 AM

arcas: The previous comments about automation and increased productivity and efficiency are spot on. Increases in each of these metrics mean that you're able to satisfy existing demand using fewer and fewer workers. The question is... what happens when, say, only 3-5% our available workforce is needed to produce those goods? What happens to the remaining 95+% of the workforce?

I find it difficult to believe that society with transform itself into a Gene Roddenberry-style utopia where everyone else simply seeks to better themselves through art or music.


Something is going to have to be done. Either you conduct a cultural revival, or you commit genocide.
 
2012-09-04 09:39:57 AM

Fecacacophany: Rich Cream: mjohnson71: GAT_00: Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.

The Boomers are going to bleed us to death.


Trillions to the war machine and handouts to banks and corporations but old people, yeah, they're sucking up all the resources. That's why you can't find work, that retired guy is collecting Social Security!

No, I think it's more the fact that the old people AREN'T retired. They're running the war machine, providing handouts to the banks and running the corporations into the ground or to labor overseas.



Sounds like a reasonable factor. It's just that not ALL old people are doing all that, just some are doing parts of that. I just get annoyed when I see people playing into ageism. That's about as lame as engaging in class warfare.

It's not the age, it's not the class, it's not the color of skin, it's not the religion. It's just being a cocksucker.
 
2012-09-04 09:55:04 AM
See the story 4 links down on FARK about corporate profits being at an all time high?

Yeah.

So keep electing "pro-business" candidates to political office and see how much more of the same you get.
 
2012-09-04 10:16:41 AM
Conservatives have been railing against socialism and socialists for years now. Finally their policies are going to give them a taste of what real socialism is and what real socialists are. People are going to start reading Marx and they are going to start believing that this man's work isn't the cause of their problems, but rather a solution.
 
2012-09-04 10:29:04 AM

Dracolich: Nadie_AZ: I've been reading Guns Germs and Steel. It got me thinking. We are moving towards an automated way of life. Everything in the factory is automated, computers do a lot of work for us, machines of all types do our work for us. As such, we are going to have more people than jobs. If that is the case, then unemployment is systemic. There isn't much that can be done about it.

To be fair, a lot of the automation removes unsafe proceedures. Humans are fragile - every last one. People can only safely life about 51 lbs under ideal cyclic lifting conditions (NIOSH). People are made of watery bags that can barely take any pressure or shear. If that's not enough, you also have to worry about sound, lighting, temperature, humidity, and particulate matter in the air. What living workers really bring to the table is cheap adaptability. Even the lowest position imaginable in a company relies on the worker's mind. This is the tougher area to automate, but we're getting better at it. A Roomba isn't a janitor. A welding robot isn't a welder. A CNC program isn't a machine operator.

Demand is largely unautomated. "Voice of the Customer" is largely unautomated. Design still has an entire side of aesthetics that's largely unautomated. I think we'll get there too someday as we get better at neurology, but there are real positions out there for people.


Did you take Six Sigma and human factors engineering classes this summer too?
 
2012-09-04 11:08:38 AM

Rich Cream: Fecacacophany: Rich Cream: mjohnson71: GAT_00: Yeah, we don't get a future. Got to give everything to the Greediest Generation.

The Boomers are going to bleed us to death.


Trillions to the war machine and handouts to banks and corporations but old people, yeah, they're sucking up all the resources. That's why you can't find work, that retired guy is collecting Social Security!

No, I think it's more the fact that the old people AREN'T retired. They're running the war machine, providing handouts to the banks and running the corporations into the ground or to labor overseas.


Sounds like a reasonable factor. It's just that not ALL old people are doing all that, just some are doing parts of that. I just get annoyed when I see people playing into ageism. That's about as lame as engaging in class warfare.

It's not the age, it's not the class, it's not the color of skin, it's not the religion. It's just being a cocksucker.


But what happens when "you get yours" and Social Security is drained.

I'm in my early 40's, have been working since I was 15, will work another 30 years and am pretty convinced I won't get a single penny of the money I've put into Social Security. SS is just a ponzi scheme not far from failing.
 
2012-09-04 11:10:33 AM
Don't forget to add mountains of nondischargeable student loan debt to the equation. Millennials are really and truly screwed financially. Even if they manage to get on their feet, they'll have to make the equivalent of a mortgage payment each month to banks on top of paying their living expenses. Forget savings, the Millenials will be an entire generation of wage slaves.
 
2012-09-04 11:24:19 AM
Old people are the only voters that matter
 
2012-09-04 11:25:14 AM

imontheinternet: Don't forget to add mountains of nondischargeable student loan debt to the equation. Millennials are really and truly screwed financially. Even if they manage to get on their feet, they'll have to make the equivalent of a mortgage payment each month to banks on top of paying their living expenses. Forget savings, the Millenials will be an entire generation of wage slaves.


I know we engineers can be dicks about a lot of stuff but a technical field will help you find a job in your selected field more than most other careers.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/2012/0 3 /22/youre-an-engineer-youre-hired
 
2012-09-04 11:28:26 AM
Oh boy here come the egineers. Protip: the H1bs are coming for you too. Your wages are also falliny because of excess labor supply.
 
2012-09-04 11:30:51 AM
*hops on the engineer bandwagon*
 
2012-09-04 11:32:19 AM
"Employers remain hesitant to add permanent employees due to uncertainty about the current strength of the economy and future economic conditions, including impending tax increases and spending cuts expected to take effect in January 2013. In times like these, businesses are being much more strategic in sourcing additional talent and maintaining work force flexibility."

Its really a great cover, no?

Even in good times, is there ever real "certainty" in the future markets? in the future tax structure?

No, they simply found out that they can basically get the same work output from a temp hire that they do from a full-timer, with the added benefit of not having to give true to value wages, vacation & sick time, health coverage, or any other services. They are just temps, after all. All they have to do to keep the system afloat is just keep saying how scary things are right now.

Any company can do this so long as the company is set up for "plug and play" employment, and thanks to high-efficiency systems modeling, its easy enough to do.
 
2012-09-04 11:42:46 AM

Benni K Rok: arcas: The previous comments about automation and increased productivity and efficiency are spot on. Increases in each of these metrics mean that you're able to satisfy existing demand using fewer and fewer workers. The question is... what happens when, say, only 3-5% our available workforce is needed to produce those goods? What happens to the remaining 95+% of the workforce?

I find it difficult to believe that society with transform itself into a Gene Roddenberry-style utopia where everyone else simply seeks to better themselves through art or music.

Something is going to have to be done. Either you conduct a cultural revival, or you commit genocide.


100 years ago 90% of Americans were farmers.

Some how, we adapted.
 
2012-09-04 12:04:03 PM

Brostorm: Old people are the only voters that matter


That's because more of them bother to get off their asses and actually cast a ballot. Younger people make up a larger percentage of the eligible voting population, and could potentially have a large influence on election outcomes. But they mostly don't bother.
 
2012-09-04 12:07:36 PM

GoldSpider: angrymacface: Still better than Lotus Notes.

As someone who just took a new job as a Lotus Notes administrator, I'm getting a kick out of this.


God help you.
 
2012-09-04 12:37:24 PM

rogue49:
It's not until you've been in the industry for a while that you can ask for perm straight out.


I read that as porn.
 
2012-09-04 01:06:02 PM

angrymacface: Still better than Lotus Notes.


That's not really a big accomplishment. Retarded carrier pigeons shiatting on your desks and spreading bird flue are technically a better mail and collaboration tool than Lotus Notes.
 
2012-09-04 01:23:31 PM
It's hard to know what to do as a recent high school grad...

o.onionstatic.com
 
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