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(Yahoo)   Washington Nationals officially concede 2012 MLB pennant   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 61
    More: Obvious, Stephen Strasburg, Washington Nationals, Major League Baseball, Nationals officially, Doug Flutie, Davey Johnson, Rob Johnson, Josh Johnson  
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2947 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 Sep 2012 at 12:39 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-03 12:47:35 PM  
MLB pennant? Subby should get a Fail tag.
 
2012-09-03 12:52:07 PM  
Hire Dusty Baker.
Problem solved.
 
2012-09-03 12:53:43 PM  
One of the dumbest ideas I've heard of.
 
2012-09-03 12:54:58 PM  
It's a fascinating cultural shift. A century ago there is no way in hell this happens, and the list of pitchers whose careers were ended or severely shortened by overuse is long.
 
2012-09-03 12:56:07 PM  
A) WTF is an MLB pennant?

B) I think they might just win anyway.
 
2012-09-03 01:03:56 PM  

Dafatone: B) I think they might just win anyway.


They actually still have the best team in the NL without him. Gonzalez, Zimmerman, and some combination of Jackson/Detwiler/Lannan is serviceable enough.
 
2012-09-03 01:04:11 PM  
These Yahoo! Sports links are frustrating to click on from my phone bcause I get the mobile site which has generic links and it's often impossibl to find the article. Just wanted to throw that out there after the 4th or 5th time I've noticed it.
 
2012-09-03 01:04:54 PM  
If they wind up in the one-game playoff, and then lose that playoff, Davey Johnson is going to be run out of Washington on a rail.
 
2012-09-03 01:05:09 PM  

a sharp nail: Dafatone: B) I think they might just win anyway.

They actually still have the best team in the NL without him. Gonzalez, Zimmerman, and some combination of Jackson/Detwiler/Lannan is serviceable enough.


We'll see if anything survives after Dusty Baker starts bringing Chapman in, in the 5th inning to close out games, every single playoff game.
 
2012-09-03 01:13:15 PM  

Gosling: If they wind up in the one-game playoff, and then lose that playoff, Davey Johnson is going to be run out of Washington on a rail.


No he won't. Pretty much everyone in DC is OK with Strausberg being shut down because they don't need a short term victory if it comes at the expense of a career of victories. Plus the Nats have a 7 game lead on the Braves with under 30 games left. That also still leaves 2 starts for Straus and as mentioned before the Nats still have one of the best rotations in baseball.

These articles are written by people outside of DC that want to create some sort of controversy, but have no leg to stand on. Every argument that can be made for keeping him in can be responded by uttering: Kerry Wood.
 
2012-09-03 01:17:00 PM  
Flags fly forever
 
2012-09-03 01:22:07 PM  
It's a judgment call which can only be evaluated in hindsight, thing that bugs me is they act as if there is solid science informing their decision down to the minute detail. In reality it's little more than semi-informed guesswork and hope that they are doing the right thing.
 
2012-09-03 01:22:27 PM  
The only way I could see Davey Johnson being run out of town is if they have a meltdown of epic proportions like the Mets did a few years ago. Even then, maybe not, as we're used to seeing those happen to the Redskins and Capitals.
 
2012-09-03 01:23:36 PM  

Stimied in a Rut: Gosling: If they wind up in the one-game playoff, and then lose that playoff, Davey Johnson is going to be run out of Washington on a rail.

No he won't. Pretty much everyone in DC is OK with Strausberg being shut down because they don't need a short term victory if it comes at the expense of a career of victories. Plus the Nats have a 7 game lead on the Braves with under 30 games left. That also still leaves 2 starts for Straus and as mentioned before the Nats still have one of the best rotations in baseball.

These articles are written by people outside of DC that want to create some sort of controversy, but have no leg to stand on. Every argument that can be made for keeping him in can be responded by uttering: Kerry Wood.


With as much as you see people biatch about how Pete Rose hypothetically shortened and ruined Players' careers because he might have put them in the line-up when they didn't need to be just because he may have been betting on the game, you would think they would agree with keeping Strasburg out of the line-up after he's reached his post-surgery recommended game limit so his career won't be shortened at the expense of one season.
 
2012-09-03 01:28:23 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: post-surgery recommended game limit


except there isn't such a thing
 
2012-09-03 01:30:46 PM  
This is nothing but good news for us. If we can just keep dusty from well, acting like dusty in the playoffs.
 
2012-09-03 01:32:14 PM  

ElwoodCuse: FirstNationalBastard: post-surgery recommended game limit

except there isn't such a thing


Okay, post-surgery "better safe than sorry" limit.
 
2012-09-03 01:32:49 PM  
That's okay. The Phillies conceded their season back in May.
 
2012-09-03 01:36:47 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Okay, post-surgery "better safe than sorry" limit.


There isn't one of these either, they are making up a number out of thin air. They might as well not ever have him pitch again if they are so worried he's going to get hurt.

If you're worried about getting killed in a car accident you can wear a seatbelt and drive defensively but the only way to reduce the risk to zero is to never ever go on the roads.
 
2012-09-03 01:38:49 PM  
Subby is an ignorant retard.

Shocking.
 
2012-09-03 01:46:51 PM  
I remain fully with the Nationals on this one. Right or wrong concept, they did the exact same thing with Zimmerman last year, and he's been great this year. And with Strasburg, this has been the plan in place before he even finished his rehab.

This is not breaking news, and it's silly that everyone in only the past few weeks has been piling on about this decision. If you didn't say anything about them doing this with Zimmerman last year, then you're a farking hypocrite.
 
2012-09-03 02:01:05 PM  

coolio mack: I remain fully with the Nationals on this one. Right or wrong concept, they did the exact same thing with Zimmerman last year, and he's been great this year. And with Strasburg, this has been the plan in place before he even finished his rehab.

This is not breaking news, and it's silly that everyone in only the past few weeks has been piling on about this decision. If you didn't say anything about them doing this with Zimmerman last year, then you're a farking hypocrite.


And if he were to blow out his elbow in game 160 of the season, you'd hear crickets from all the whiners.
 
2012-09-03 02:04:57 PM  
It's the right long term move, but shiat man, you have a shot at the World Series. This isn't basketball, you don't get multiple tries to screw up the World Series (unless you're Texas, apparently). You might get one shot, forever. Ask the Padres in 1998...
 
2012-09-03 02:05:25 PM  
He's still going to blow out his arm next season.
 
2012-09-03 02:07:11 PM  
I'm not sure what else Washington was supposed to do. RIsk his entire career? Have him pitch every 8th day? Delay his season until June?
 
2012-09-03 02:29:26 PM  

AliceBToklasLives: RIsk his entire career? Have him pitch every 8th day? Delay his season until June?


Perhaps make sure he pitches in such a way that innings aren't a problem. Tommy John didn't worry about innings pitched after having his elbow fixed up. People have written about Strasburg's mechanics not being good. If they made sure to fix that, wouldn't have to worry about his arm. Indeed if it had good mechanics to begin with, wouldn't ever had an issue with his arm in the first place.
 
2012-09-03 02:34:30 PM  
Um, put him in the bullpen during the playoffs, a la Mariano?
 
2012-09-03 02:43:21 PM  

WhyteRaven74: People have written about Strasburg's mechanics not being good. If they made sure to fix that, wouldn't have to worry about his arm. Indeed if it had good mechanics to begin with, wouldn't ever had an issue with his arm in the first place.



i don't know who was more to blame ultimately for Kerry Wood....as shown in this thread, Dusty takes a lot of credit but I can't help but think of what Steve Stone said. to paraphrase, he said "kerry wood is a great thrower but he needs to learn how to pitch". and steve stone said Wood's mechanics were suspect. and steve stone was thanked by getting booted from teh broadcast booth.

the Nats are diong the right thing, period.
 
2012-09-03 03:12:40 PM  

WhyteRaven74: AliceBToklasLives: RIsk his entire career? Have him pitch every 8th day? Delay his season until June?

Perhaps make sure he pitches in such a way that innings aren't a problem. Tommy John didn't worry about innings pitched after having his elbow fixed up. People have written about Strasburg's mechanics not being good. If they made sure to fix that, wouldn't have to worry about his arm. Indeed if it had good mechanics to begin with, wouldn't ever had an issue with his arm in the first place.


It doesn't make me an expert or anything, so I'll not opine here, but I was at the game Tommy John blew up his arm in.

/CSB
 
2012-09-03 04:31:36 PM  

king of vegas: These Yahoo! Sports links are frustrating to click on from my phone bcause I get the mobile site which has generic links and it's often impossibl to find the article. Just wanted to throw that out there after the 4th or 5th time I've noticed it.


imgs.xkcd.com
 
2012-09-03 05:07:15 PM  

WhyteRaven74: AliceBToklasLives: RIsk his entire career? Have him pitch every 8th day? Delay his season until June?

Perhaps make sure he pitches in such a way that innings aren't a problem. Tommy John didn't worry about innings pitched after having his elbow fixed up. People have written about Strasburg's mechanics not being good. If they made sure to fix that, wouldn't have to worry about his arm. Indeed if it had good mechanics to begin with, wouldn't ever had an issue with his arm in the first place.


a.espncdn.com

www.chrisoleary.com

www.chrisoleary.com
 
2012-09-03 05:17:32 PM  

Lou Cypher: It's a judgment call which can only be evaluated in hindsight, thing that bugs me is they act as if there is solid science informing their decision down to the minute detail. In reality it's little more than semi-informed guesswork and hope that they are doing the right thing.


This. It's an arbitrary date that makes management feel better.
 
2012-09-03 05:21:32 PM  

Trocadero: It's the right long term move, but shiat man, you have a shot at the World Series. This isn't basketball, you don't get multiple tries to screw up the World Series (unless you're Texas, apparently). You might get one shot, forever. Ask the Padres in 1998...



Exactly.  Unless you're the Yankees... its very difficult to win in baseball.  Upsets are common.  Dark Horses clinch spots that no one would have guessed at the beginning of the season.
 
Too many teams have a shot.  You gotta take it when you can.  Its not all that uncommon for even world series champions to not make the playoffs at all the next year.
 
2012-09-03 05:28:07 PM  

WhyteRaven74: AliceBToklasLives: RIsk his entire career? Have him pitch every 8th day? Delay his season until June?

Perhaps make sure he pitches in such a way that innings aren't a problem. Tommy John didn't worry about innings pitched after having his elbow fixed up. People have written about Strasburg's mechanics not being good. If they made sure to fix that, wouldn't have to worry about his arm. Indeed if it had good mechanics to begin with, wouldn't ever had an issue with his arm in the first place.


I think people don't quite understand what goes into "fixing mechanics" with a pitcher. Once a pitcher has developed his way of pitching, it's not like you can completely change his wind-up and delivery. You might be able to teach him a few little things - keep on top of the ball to keep the ball low in the zone, watch your plant foot, etc. - but you're not going to change their entire delivery. At least, I've never seen it done with a player who's already at the major league level and has spent at least 5 years getting into the current windup. It's not like you're going to take Dontrelle Willis and tell him "okay- no more leg kick, pitch like a normal person". Or you could tell Ubaldo Jimenez to stop with the weird twisting and just deliver a pitch like Greg Maddux.

Similarly, I don't think that you can teach a guy like Strasburg to change how his elbow points when he throws. To un-teach what probably comes natural to him at this point would take at least a year of him not pitching at the major league level. He'd have to pitch a lot to get into the habit (which, given their current mindset of shutting him down, wouldn't happen), and he'd likely be pitching wildly since he wouldn't have any practice consistently hitting his release point with the new delivery. And it's likely that even when you DID get to the point where he's accurate again, he would have lost a few MPH on his fastball.
 
2012-09-03 05:35:13 PM  

ChrisDe: Lou Cypher: It's a judgment call which can only be evaluated in hindsight, thing that bugs me is they act as if there is solid science informing their decision down to the minute detail. In reality it's little more than semi-informed guesswork and hope that they are doing the right thing.

This. It's an arbitrary date that makes management feel better.


It's also a somewhat standard practice in the minor leagues, and it seems to have helped a few pitchers recover after TJ surgery. It's not like they pulled the idea out of thin air - I think they're just the first team to apply it to someone at the major league level during a pennant race (the Indians shut down Masterson 2010 for a different injury, worked well for his 2011 season). I think everyone would like to see better science behind the decision, but no such research exists right now as "professional pitchers a year after Tommy John surgery" is a small and understudied group. It's guesswork, but it's not like it's completely pulled out of thin air.
 
2012-09-03 05:48:40 PM  
What does Dibble have to say about this.

Oh wait.... Where is he? They shut him.... down or up... either will work.
 
2012-09-03 06:03:41 PM  

lacydog: And it's likely that even when you DID get to the point where he's accurate again, he would have lost a few MPH on his fastball.


even if you did successfully change his mechanics completely. now he probably doesn't have the velocity and movement on his pitches with the new motion that he had with the old and he is no longer an effective MLB pitcher. And he probably won't be able to throw strikes consistently enough.
 
2012-09-03 06:53:04 PM  

lacydog: ChrisDe: Lou Cypher: It's a judgment call which can only be evaluated in hindsight, thing that bugs me is they act as if there is solid science informing their decision down to the minute detail. In reality it's little more than semi-informed guesswork and hope that they are doing the right thing.

This. It's an arbitrary date that makes management feel better.

It's also a somewhat standard practice in the minor leagues, and it seems to have helped a few pitchers recover after TJ surgery. It's not like they pulled the idea out of thin air - I think they're just the first team to apply it to someone at the major league level during a pennant race (the Indians shut down Masterson 2010 for a different injury, worked well for his 2011 season). I think everyone would like to see better science behind the decision, but no such research exists right now as "professional pitchers a year after Tommy John surgery" is a small and understudied group. It's guesswork, but it's not like it's completely pulled out of thin air.


I certainly accept that they have established broad guidelines through experience and observations and that the men who deal with the players every day are in the best position to make decisions. When they get down to absolute numbers about innings and pitch counts it feels a bit dubious to me, like they are shifting responsibility for the decision to some precise science which doesn't really exist.
 
2012-09-03 06:53:04 PM  
Ask Dan Marino what it's like to just assume you'll be back again. You think he'd trade it all back for a ring? Yes.

Short term possible championship vs. a long term career. 9/10 would take the pennant, especially in baseball, where it's extremely hard to win, let alone getting back there again.
 
2012-09-03 07:27:43 PM  
Ron Darling said it brilliantly:

Let me ask you a question. Why do these organizations -- why do they want to pigeon-hole themselves? Why don't they just keep their big mouths shut? There's no reason to tell anybody that [Stephen Strasburg] is on any innings. They don't owe anyone that. Just shut your mouth and let him pitch...

...Nothing better for baseball than taking a great young pitcher and not letting him be great. We should try that the rest of the way, see how it goes in 2025. C'mon he's 6'4", 240lbs...

...There's no artificial way to keep a guy healthy. They did everything you're supposed to do in the minor leagues and what happened? He had Tommy John Surgery in his first year! I mean, please. I'm so sick of the people who never played in the suits -- or they've got the white smocks on -- saying 'I know how to legislate when a guy is going to get hurt. And I give him these innings or that innings and he's definitely not gonna get hurt.' They did everything you're supposed to do. They did it all by the book, and in his first year he gets a Tommy John. Way to go. Fantastic. Great job. Did everything by the book. There's no book! There is no book! I'm so sick of hearing it!


http://www.amazinavenue.com/2012/4/16/2951430/this-week-in-sny-mets-g a ry-cohen-keith-hernandez-ron-darling-stephen-strasburg-phillies-nation als
 
2012-09-03 07:57:32 PM  

picodenico: One of the dumbest ideas I've heard of.


This times a million
 
2012-09-03 08:37:24 PM  
This is the idiocy of thinking correlation is causation. They see young pitchers who had high innings levels and subsequent arm troubles, and just figure the solution is to limit Strasburg's innings. But the problem is that there's no evidence that high innings levels cause injuries. What causes injuries is high pitch counts, which lead to arm fatigue, which lead to bad technique, which lead to big trouble. Pay attention to Strasburg's starts, put him on a strict no-exceptions pitch count if you think it's necessary, but stay away from the junk science guiding this decision.
 
2012-09-03 09:03:25 PM  
Semi-related CSB time:

I ran into Gio Gonzalez at 2 in the morning last night and he had some serious bags under his eyes today.
 
2012-09-03 10:16:04 PM  
Doctors, including the pre-eminent figure in the surgery, Dr James Andrews, are saying the Nats are doing the right and safe thing. If I were a Nats fan (heck, even as just a baseball fan) I absolutely applaud the decision. It baffles me that people side with some macho players (and keep in mind that Tommy John 's velocity was never quite the same) who like to claim that all modern players are wusses, over actual medical professionals. As someone said above, look how much Jordan Zimmerman has thrived. Whether it is because of the limit from last year or not, why would you chance it with a talent like Strasburg?
 
2012-09-03 10:41:51 PM  

Fade2black: Short term possible championship vs. a long term career. 9/10 would take the pennant, especially in baseball, where it's extremely hard to win, let alone getting back there again.


Counter point: of course athletes would take the championship because they think they are indestructible. But if you had a crystal ball and gave them only two hard realities: a) you could have a championship ring that ends your career, or b) you could have the chance to make hundreds of millions of dollars playing for a team that never wins again, do you really think they'd go for the ring?
 
2012-09-03 11:47:56 PM  

ElwoodCuse: FirstNationalBastard: Okay, post-surgery "better safe than sorry" limit.

There isn't one of these either, they are making up a number out of thin air. They might as well not ever have him pitch again if they are so worried he's going to get hurt.

If you're worried about getting killed in a car accident you can wear a seatbelt and drive defensively but the only way to reduce the risk to zero is to never ever go on the roads.


You're an idiot.
 
2012-09-04 12:26:51 AM  
Thought: To what extent does Strasburg having electric stuff threaten his arm?

It seems like innings limits are only developed for young pitchers who throw great. If you're a projected back of the rotation guy who still sneaks into the majors at 22, no one cares and you can throw until your arm falls off. If you're a projected ace, you get taken care of.

It makes sense that throwing harder/nastier would put more pressure on your elbow/shoulder, but does it? I mean, obviously the force involved is larger.

I actually think this is the right call, though there's no way to know whether or not that's true. I'm surprised they went through with it, though.

What they should have done (though they didn't know they'd make the postseason) would be start Strasburg up in May or something, and then let him finish the season.
 
2012-09-04 07:24:03 AM  

DeltaPunch: Fade2black: Short term possible championship vs. a long term career. 9/10 would take the pennant, especially in baseball, where it's extremely hard to win, let alone getting back there again.

Counter point: of course athletes would take the championship because they think they are indestructible. But if you had a crystal ball and gave them only two hard realities: a) you could have a championship ring that ends your career, or b) you could have the chance to make hundreds of millions of dollars playing for a team that never wins again, do you really think they'd go for the ring?


Excellent point. Strasburg could make dumb money over a long career. ARod money. You dont take that away from someone.
 
2012-09-04 08:34:24 AM  

nein: look how much Jordan Zimmerman has thrived.


He looks like he's fading though. Last several starts have been mediocre.

I worry about this whole team getting through a full season and into the playoffs. Lots of guys playing longer and more than they have before. Zimmermann is just an example. Because of the way they shut him down last year, he's never pitched this many innings before. It's a long way still to go.
 
2012-09-04 08:52:12 AM  

doyner: And if he were to blow out his elbow in game 160 of the season, you'd hear crickets from all the whiners.


No, you'd hear this:

"See? They should have stuck to their original plan. Who cares if other people [note failure to say they were part of this group] thought they were wrong, the Nats obviously would have been right to shut him down!"
 
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