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(Bill Moyers)   The problem with our current political system is deep, systemic corruption   (billmoyers.com) divider line 98
    More: Scary, American Democracy, Roberts Court, public purpose, First Hour, representative democracies, war chest, Washington Report, war chests  
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3405 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Sep 2012 at 12:34 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-03 10:13:30 AM  
Even Romero has reported this already.
 
2012-09-03 10:45:50 AM  
Did the SCARY tag offer you a bigger bribe than the OBVIOUS tag, subby?
 
DAR [TotalFark]
2012-09-03 10:46:30 AM  
Modern technology maybe the cure for the "money in politics" thing. That money is currently is being used to fund the old WWII style propaganda machine that depended on radio/TV commercials being the sole source of information for the unwashed voting masses. It was based on the theory that if you tell someone something often enough they will begin to believe it. Joseph Goebbels would be so proud and envious of our current system, its been fine tuned to an art form by both parties.

We are currently raising an entire generation of kids that are being trained to put filters between themselves and the "Big Lie", they don't listen to radio broadcast news, they skip the commericals with DVRs, they read the Internet with the understanding that some of the information isn't true. They only "pull" information that they want to learn and that will also affect the way in which we teach kids @ school / college.

It'll be another 20 years before they begin to take political power and start the "Information Age Revolution" that is surely coming.........k/dar
 
2012-09-03 10:50:44 AM  

DAR: the old WWII style propaganda machine


The problem is that the WWII generation still votes.
 
DAR [TotalFark]
2012-09-03 11:02:38 AM  

hinten: The problem is that the WWII generation still votes.


yep and they have all the money they collected during into their lives.
 
2012-09-03 11:03:01 AM  
"We might wish the uproar from the convention halls of both parties these busy weeks were the wholesome clamor of delegates deliberating serious visions of how we should be governed for the next four years. It rises instead from scripted TV spectacles - grown-ups doing somersaults of make-believe - that will once again distract the public's attention from the death rattle of American democracy brought on by an overdose of campaign cash."

That's exactly what I would have said, if I were Bill Moyers.
 
2012-09-03 12:04:18 PM  
Money is speech, though.
 
2012-09-03 12:28:50 PM  

DamnYankees: Money is speech, though.


...and corporations are people

...and America is a business
 
2012-09-03 12:36:18 PM  
A radical minority of the super-rich has gained ascendency over politics, buying the policies, laws, tax breaks, subsidies, and rules that consolidate a permanent state of vast inequality by which they can further help themselves to America's wealth and resources.

don't worry - all of this has happened before. All of this will happen again. And what the hell is up with that damn music? it's in the gotdamn walls....
 
2012-09-03 12:37:16 PM  

hinten: DAR: the old WWII style propaganda machine

The problem is that the WWII generation still votes.


this
 
2012-09-03 12:37:27 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Did the SCARY tag offer you a bigger bribe than the OBVIOUS tag, subby?


The OBVIOUS tag is currently detained in an undisclosed location overseas.
 
2012-09-03 12:47:30 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Lionel Mandrake: Did the SCARY tag offer you a bigger bribe than the OBVIOUS tag, subby?

The OBVIOUS tag is currently detained in an undisclosed location overseas.


The OBVIOUS tag is NOT being tortured. Americans don't torture. The OBVIOUS tag is being Freedom DrownedTM.
 
2012-09-03 12:47:55 PM  
Why you can't get money out of politics?

The ones getting the money are the ones who would have to act to remove it.

You think they're gonna do that?
 
2012-09-03 12:50:06 PM  
This is why Bill Moyers gets relegated to the back of the media bus. Why bother with substance when you can shove a camera in someone's face and whittle a complicated political landscape down to "Are you better off today than you were 4 years ago? WELL ARE YOU??" We deserve the media we get in this country.
 
2012-09-03 12:53:07 PM  
How about having a populace educated & discerning enough not to watch political ads, or be influenced by any the messaging paid for by all that $$$?

Nice fantasy, I know. Bout as likely as the one where Kate Beckinsale wakes me up with pancakes and a blowie.
 
2012-09-03 12:54:28 PM  
DAR
Modern technology maybe the cure for the "money in politics" thing.

So too might have been broadcast television, or the newspaper. The problem isn't the lack of tools that can be used properly. It's the existence of human willingness to abuse those tools, and the way that our culture gives incentives for that behavior. Money itself is just another tool, a layer of abstraction around the real core problem... a corrosive, greedy sense of self-interest that our culture has elevated to the status of virtue.

When we see a powerful/wealthy person, I question how much we even consider the means by which they gained their power, unless we are seeking to emulate them. Power itself is an end to many... they don't have anywhere to go, they just want to ride the ferris wheel.
 
2012-09-03 12:59:01 PM  
Fark needs a "DUH" tag.
 
2012-09-03 12:59:54 PM  

DAR: Modern technology maybe the cure for the "money in politics" thing. That money is currently is being used to fund the old WWII style propaganda machine that depended on radio/TV commercials being the sole source of information for the unwashed voting masses. It was based on the theory that if you tell someone something often enough they will begin to believe it. Joseph Goebbels would be so proud and envious of our current system, its been fine tuned to an art form by both parties.

We are currently raising an entire generation of kids that are being trained to put filters between themselves and the "Big Lie", they don't listen to radio broadcast news, they skip the commericals with DVRs, they read the Internet with the understanding that some of the information isn't true. They only "pull" information that they want to learn and that will also affect the way in which we teach kids @ school / college.

It'll be another 20 years before they begin to take political power and start the "Information Age Revolution" that is surely coming.........k/dar


My overall problem with CNN, Fox News, MSNBC is their absolute lack of coverage pertaining to things that really are dangerous. NDAA passed and no one said shiat. Corporate personhood ruling that gets the coverage of the president landing in another country. The Occupy movement was something we'd all heard about before they began reporting it. The civil war in Syria is a passing story every day, barely getting mention, and depending on the station, is only used to praise or crap on the president.

And that is only part of the problem...
 
2012-09-03 01:00:10 PM  
Obvious Tag finds article too obvious to be worth representing; has better things to do on a holiday.
 
2012-09-03 01:01:45 PM  
Read "Why America Failed" by M. Berman or look at his lecture on youtube.

If you believe "the business of america is business" after reading that youre too stupid to live.

The criminal business class are the ones that have farked you good america.

Businessmen are americas built in self destruct mechanism
 
2012-09-03 01:01:49 PM  
When the party in charge is not wiling to get rid of someone like Rangel, you know we didn't get Hope and Change.
 
2012-09-03 01:04:55 PM  
Voting may be a roughly democratic process in this country, but campaigning and getting on the ballot are market processes. We must make them democratic processes as well if we are to get rid of corruption in our governments.
 
2012-09-03 01:05:39 PM  
I will accept that corporations are people, and money is speech, when I see a corporation standing on a box downtown and throwing money at me when I walk by.
 
2012-09-03 01:06:20 PM  

TimonC346:

My overall problem with CNN, Fox News, MSNBC is their absolute lack of coverage pertaining to things that really are dangerous. NDAA passed and no one said shiat. Corporate personhood ruling that gets the coverage of the president landing in another country. The Occupy movement was something we'd all heard about before they began reporting it. The civil war in Syria is a passing story every day, barely getting mention, and depending on the station, is only used to praise or crap on the president.

And that is only part of the problem...


If only a Vice President could invent a system in which information and news could spread around the world, perhaps through a series of tubes, so that people don't need to get their news from cable TV shows. Why are you singling out cable TV instead of the Lame Stream Media of CBS, ABC, NBC?

You should watch Fox more. They covered NDAA, The freedom of speech ruling, the Occutards and Syria quite a bit.
 
2012-09-03 01:07:32 PM  

Bob16: Read "Why America Failed" by M. Berman or look at his lecture on youtube.

If you believe "the business of america is business" after reading that youre too stupid to live.

The criminal business class are the ones that have farked you good america.

Businessmen are americas built in self destruct mechanism


which would explain why this country never made it past its first 20 years.

Geesh.
 
2012-09-03 01:08:29 PM  
Bob16
The criminal business class are the ones that have farked you good america.

Do the shackles have more legroom in criminal business class? It's a much bigger problem than businessmen or politicians. It's our definition of success.
 
2012-09-03 01:09:41 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese:
which would explain why this country never made it past its first 20 years.

Geesh.


we almost didn't make it past 20 years. the articles of confederation were...not conducive to a stable long term government.
 
2012-09-03 01:09:51 PM  
Moyer: "Money in Politics: Where Is the Outrage?"

Look out the window, schmuck.


cdn.theatlantic.com

/assuming you still live in NYC
 
2012-09-03 01:10:34 PM  
Currently broadcasters pay the government for use of the broadcast spectrum.

They are also required to do "public service"

The amount they pay is a joke, a mere token. How much is a chunk of spectrum really worth? Billions. How much do they pay? Thousands.

What do they do for public service? Some kind of three in the morning announcement about a battered woman's shelter.

I propose that broadcasters provide time to candidates as a public service in loo of paying the billions that broadcast spectrum is actually worth. Sucks the need for all that cash right out of the system.

Candidates would no longer need to whore themselves out.

Alas this would never happen. It would be fought tooth and nail entrenched power centers.
 
2012-09-03 01:14:39 PM  

Rich Cream: Moyer: "Money in Politics: Where Is the Outrage?"

Look out the window, schmuck.


[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x595]

/assuming you still live in NYC


the corporate news teams have been working very hard to ignore the Occupy protests.
 
2012-09-03 01:15:00 PM  
TimonC346
My overall problem with CNN, Fox News, MSNBC is their absolute lack of coverage pertaining to things that really are dangerous.

Why do you think Rupert Murdoch got into newspapers? Why do you think GE wants to own a media empire? Enormous power comes with the ability to decide what stories receive coverage (even if subtly, as in through hiring people with similar ideologies, etc.) and then frame the contextual narrative of those news stories complete with reactions from highly emulate-able projections of normalcy.
 
2012-09-03 01:18:10 PM  

mrexcess: It's a much bigger problem than businessmen or politicians. It's our definition of success.


Capitalism can't coexist with the REAL definition of success which was the Monomyth ( aka the sacrificial myth ) so the definition was changed so that Maslows retards could be elevate ( his hierarchy was inverted ). The criminal business class is the manifestation of the incorrect definition of success.

Any culture that places the businessman over the artist is headed down and Maslow tried his best to point that out.
 
2012-09-03 01:18:41 PM  

mrexcess: TimonC346
My overall problem with CNN, Fox News, MSNBC is their absolute lack of coverage pertaining to things that really are dangerous.

Why do you think Rupert Murdoch got into newspapers? Why do you think GE wants to own a media empire? Enormous power comes with the ability to decide what stories receive coverage (even if subtly, as in through hiring people with similar ideologies, etc.) and then frame the contextual narrative of those news stories complete with reactions from highly emulate-able projections of normalcy.


in other words - the big media companies have to quash the internets wherever possible otherwise their monopoly on information is in danger.
 
2012-09-03 01:21:17 PM  

DAR: Modern technology maybe the cure for the "money in politics" thing. That money is currently is being used to fund the old WWII style propaganda machine that depended on radio/TV commercials being the sole source of information for the unwashed voting masses. It was based on the theory that if you tell someone something often enough they will begin to believe it. Joseph Goebbels would be so proud and envious of our current system, its been fine tuned to an art form by both parties.

We are currently raising an entire generation of kids that are being trained to put filters between themselves and the "Big Lie", they don't listen to radio broadcast news, they skip the commericals with DVRs, they read the Internet with the understanding that some of the information isn't true. They only "pull" information that they want to learn and that will also affect the way in which we teach kids @ school / college.

It'll be another 20 years before they begin to take political power and start the "Information Age Revolution" that is surely coming.........k/dar


Citation needed.
 
2012-09-03 01:26:39 PM  
Bob16
Capitalism can't coexist with the REAL definition of success which was the Monomyth ( aka the sacrificial myth )

Well now I don't want to get into advocating for that overwrought ivory tower crap either. Success might have been defined by certain cultures in that way, but that doesn't constrain us to making success into that.

I think a strong hint at what can be possible comes from that favorite example of liberals, Scandinavian society. There's a strong cultural tradition there revolving around a concept embodied in the Law of Jante that provides clues to the possibility of alternative definitions of success that do not revolve so much around individualism, while still maintaining a very egalitarian and free atmosphere.

Any culture that places the businessman over the artist is headed down and Maslow tried his best to point that out

I think there's a lot of truth to that, although I'd frame it more as... creators in general, as compared to those whose specialty is in deal-making and the shuffling of papers.

Weaver95
in other words - the big media companies have to quash the internets wherever possible otherwise their monopoly on information is in danger.

Most exactly.
 
2012-09-03 01:28:02 PM  
i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-09-03 01:28:13 PM  
The beginning of elevation of the criminal business class can be traced back to the Lee Iaccoca bio that came out during Rayguns first term.

You could really sense the pro business propaganda being poured on after Ronnie the retard got in power. Fortunately for the criminal business class america has always had a large supply of idiots that can't think for themselves.

Credit where credit is due - "criminal business class" was a term invented by George Carlin
 
2012-09-03 01:29:18 PM  
This is one of the main areas (along with single payer medical) where I think Canada is 1000x better than the US.

Several elections ago, our admittedly douchy Prime Minister, Jean Cretien, enacted hard core election campaign financing rules. Basically everyone (corporations, people, unions) are only able to donate at MOST a couple thousand dollars to an election campaign. This is supplemented by public financing. Break the rules and Elections Canada hammers you. No super PACs. Plus election campaigns are weeks long, not years.

While it doesn't mean we get perfect government, at least our democracy hasn't been reduced to an auction.
 
2012-09-03 01:31:00 PM  

hinten: DAR: the old WWII style propaganda machine

The problem is that the WWII generation still votes.


Only because they know Deathbama wants them to ride the Carousel.
 
2012-09-03 01:31:32 PM  

WhoIsNotInMyKitchen: This is one of the main areas (along with single payer medical) where I think Canada is 1000x better than the US.

Several elections ago, our admittedly douchy Prime Minister, Jean Cretien, enacted hard core election campaign financing rules. Basically everyone (corporations, people, unions) are only able to donate at MOST a couple thousand dollars to an election campaign. This is supplemented by public financing. Break the rules and Elections Canada hammers you. No super PACs. Plus election campaigns are weeks long, not years.

While it doesn't mean we get perfect government, at least our democracy hasn't been reduced to an auction.


Hmm...Fox News has convinced me that it takes six months for a Canadian to get stitches and that you guys are communists. I don't know what to think about what you said.
 
2012-09-03 01:32:43 PM  

mrexcess: Well now I don't want to get into advocating for that overwrought ivory tower crap either


The Monomyth did not come out of an ivory tower. I'd suggest you read a little Joseph Campbell. It arose spontaneously all over the world even among cultures that had no connection. The Monomyth is the most basic story that people have been telling each other for thousands of years now.

Its the instruction manual for the human being
 
2012-09-03 01:33:19 PM  
Insatiable Jesus
Only because they know Deathbama wants them to ride the Carousel.

So true. They really are cynical, aren't they?
 
2012-09-03 01:33:47 PM  
"It's not a bug; it's a feature!" - Founding Fathers
 
2012-09-03 01:36:44 PM  

DAR: Modern technology maybe the cure for the "money in politics" thing. That money is currently is being used to fund the old WWII style propaganda machine that depended on radio/TV commercials being the sole source of information for the unwashed voting masses. It was based on the theory that if you tell someone something often enough they will begin to believe it. Joseph Goebbels would be so proud and envious of our current system, its been fine tuned to an art form by both parties.

We are currently raising an entire generation of kids that are being trained to put filters between themselves and the "Big Lie", they don't listen to radio broadcast news, they skip the commericals with DVRs, they read the Internet with the understanding that some of the information isn't true. They only "pull" information that they want to learn and that will also affect the way in which we teach kids @ school / college.

It'll be another 20 years before they begin to take political power and start the "Information Age Revolution" that is surely coming.........k/dar


As much as I would like this sentiment to be true, I'm going to have to call BS. I teach this generation of kids (18-22-year-olds, in my case), and while they have the same potential for greatness as anyone else, they're also saddled with the same laziness, short-sightedness, apathy, and dumbness as any other generation.

They may be more capable with modern tech per capita, but only in the most superficial way. Knowing how to use a tool by rote is not the same as understanding its principles well enough to improvise or troubleshoot when needed. They also use technology or gadgets to cocoon themselves to an alarming degree--they don't just wall themselves off from "The Big Lie" but from everything around them, which means that it's not a thoughtful and selective mechanism but a big blanket*. Their cocooning prevents them from seeing or understanding context, which means they most likely won't be any better at solving our problems down the road than we are.

* Much like my statement, I know. Cynical today.

/We did have a small Occupy presence on campus last year; I was surprised that the school let them stay as long as they did.
 
2012-09-03 01:43:02 PM  
Bob16
The Monomyth did not come out of an ivory tower. I'd suggest you read a little Joseph Campbell. It arose spontaneously all over the world even among cultures that had no connection. The Monomyth is the most basic story that people have been telling each other for thousands of years now.

Its the instruction manual for the human being


I think you're proving my point. I'm aware of the Hero myth but I think viewing it as "an instruction manual for the human being" is extremely overwrought. Storytelling is a psychologically powerful process for us, it is the original and most natural way for humans to pass knowledge and culture to each other. There are equally powerful narratives not embodied in that particular myth, and to be frank, I think the perceived pervasiveness of the hero myth is a bit of the soothsayer's art - the theme is quite generic, essentially embodying the process of personal discovery that constitutes quite a lot of human storytelling because it is the narrative in which we tend to internally frame events.
 
2012-09-03 01:43:20 PM  

gimmegimme: WhoIsNotInMyKitchen: This is one of the main areas (along with single payer medical) where I think Canada is 1000x better than the US.

Several elections ago, our admittedly douchy Prime Minister, Jean Cretien, enacted hard core election campaign financing rules. Basically everyone (corporations, people, unions) are only able to donate at MOST a couple thousand dollars to an election campaign. This is supplemented by public financing. Break the rules and Elections Canada hammers you. No super PACs. Plus election campaigns are weeks long, not years.

While it doesn't mean we get perfect government, at least our democracy hasn't been reduced to an auction.

Hmm...Fox News has convinced me that it takes six months for a Canadian to get stitches and that you guys are communists. I don't know what to think about what you said.


As a dad with 4 kids, we've had our fair share of trips to the hospital. Number of times I had to worry about how I was going to pay for it = zero.

And our top marginal income tax rate is around 50%. I guess from a Fox news POV that makes us just a bit to the left of Karl Marx.

... but apparently the GOP considers our oil to be "Domestic" supply.
 
2012-09-03 01:47:27 PM  

WhoIsNotInMyKitchen: gimmegimme: WhoIsNotInMyKitchen: This is one of the main areas (along with single payer medical) where I think Canada is 1000x better than the US.

Several elections ago, our admittedly douchy Prime Minister, Jean Cretien, enacted hard core election campaign financing rules. Basically everyone (corporations, people, unions) are only able to donate at MOST a couple thousand dollars to an election campaign. This is supplemented by public financing. Break the rules and Elections Canada hammers you. No super PACs. Plus election campaigns are weeks long, not years.

While it doesn't mean we get perfect government, at least our democracy hasn't been reduced to an auction.

Hmm...Fox News has convinced me that it takes six months for a Canadian to get stitches and that you guys are communists. I don't know what to think about what you said.

As a dad with 4 kids, we've had our fair share of trips to the hospital. Number of times I had to worry about how I was going to pay for it = zero.

And our top marginal income tax rate is around 50%. I guess from a Fox news POV that makes us just a bit to the left of Karl Marx.

... but apparently the GOP considers our oil to be "Domestic" supply.


But how can you be free if you're not constantly terrified for the health of your children? Freedom is all about hoping that the private corporation/person will cover any treatment your children might need.
 
2012-09-03 01:51:20 PM  
mrexcess - the theme is quite generic, essentially embodying the process of personal discovery

Thats not the theme.

The theme is the highest expression of love is to sacrifice for the one that you profess to love
 
2012-09-03 01:56:14 PM  
The Devil must grin at such a sorry state of affairs and at the wicked catch-22 at its core. To fight the power of private money, it is first necessary to get elected. To get elected it is necessary to raise astronomical amounts of private money from people who expect obedience in return. "That's some catch," says Yossarian to Doc Daneeka, and Doc agrees: "It's the best there is."

This is why this will never be fixed. We are stuck with a broken system, probably permanently.

People blame Bush for the wars, the economic depression and everything else he messed up, but stacking the Supreme Court with pro-corporate conservatives harmed the country more than anything else he did.
 
DAR [TotalFark]
2012-09-03 01:58:18 PM  

Lochsteppe: They also use technology or gadgets to cocoon themselves to an alarming degree--they don't just wall themselves off from "The Big Lie" but from everything around them, which means that it's not a thoughtful and selective mechanism but a big blanket*.


agreed, lets call it the "cocoon effect" and your right about them doing it. I think you will see them grow out of it as they "grow up". This generation does seem growing up a whole lot slower then we did @ that age.

Or are we just getting older too fast ????
 
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