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(Fox News)   After finally figuring out that cowering in a corner does very little to stop a bullet, school administrators and police in Alabama are now training teachers and students to actively fight back against a school shooter   (foxnews.com) divider line 124
    More: Interesting, teacher education, Alabama, private schools, middle schools  
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4876 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Sep 2012 at 7:22 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-02 11:50:05 PM  

propasaurus: I can't wait for the inevitable lawsuit when some poor snowflake is injured because she caught back the way the school taught her.


I think you just caught say of
 
2012-09-03 12:03:55 AM  
Mentat

lewismarktwo: Yeah, I saw that video. It was total bullshiat. The guy busts into the room with his weapon drawn and shoots as many people as he can as soon as possible. That's called an AMBUSH. He knew who was in there and where they were and they had all been conveniently distracted. No amount of training can save you from that. That's why it works on professional soldiers too.

It's a good thing that never happens in real then, like say in a crowed movie theater.


Which is why we should teach abstinance, because as we all know, teaching safe sex doesnt always work
 
2012-09-03 12:05:40 AM  

August11: This nationwide discussion is being fueled by security guards who think their 9mm, and their jean-claude response will save lives.

It will not.


i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-09-03 12:27:17 AM  

Gdalescrboz: Mentat

lewismarktwo: Yeah, I saw that video. It was total bullshiat. The guy busts into the room with his weapon drawn and shoots as many people as he can as soon as possible. That's called an AMBUSH. He knew who was in there and where they were and they had all been conveniently distracted. No amount of training can save you from that. That's why it works on professional soldiers too.

It's a good thing that never happens in real then, like say in a crowed movie theater.

Which is why we should teach abstinance, because as we all know, teaching safe sex doesnt always work


Don't respond as if he actually had a point or made any sense.
 
2012-09-03 12:34:22 AM  

lewismarktwo: Gdalescrboz: Mentat

lewismarktwo: Yeah, I saw that video. It was total bullshiat. The guy busts into the room with his weapon drawn and shoots as many people as he can as soon as possible. That's called an AMBUSH. He knew who was in there and where they were and they had all been conveniently distracted. No amount of training can save you from that. That's why it works on professional soldiers too.

It's a good thing that never happens in real then, like say in a crowed movie theater.

Which is why we should teach abstinance, because as we all know, teaching safe sex doesnt always work

Don't respond as if he actually had a point or made any sense.


I'm sorry if I used too many words for you. You made a crack about ambushes to divert from my point. I made a sarcastic comment pointing out that such ambushes have happened in the recent past. Here, I'll give you another one.

Professor Amy Bishop walks into a faculty meeting at the University of Alabama Huntsville and opens fire, killing 3. She knew the room, she knew where people would be sitting, she started firing immediately. Same situation as the 20/20 scenario that you waved off as bullshiat.
 
2012-09-03 12:41:59 AM  

ghare: Oh, it's this thread again. Only when everyone is armed and carrying at all times will the gun nuts be happy. Whatever.


When you are carrying 12 pounds of crap in a backpack and/or purse from class to class like most everyone else, you ARE ARMED, you just don't have a gun. 20 people throwing anything that isn't nailed down at his head will slow down even a homicidal lunatic. People were getting injured and killed by fists, feet and thrown objects for as long as there have been people. Those same 20 people huddled in a mass trying to get out a window are just targets.

When Giffords was shot a grandmother grabbed the lunatic's hand and gun when he was trying to reload. She rendered him ineffective long enough for 2 or 3 others to knock him down and hold him. According to you she should have just tried to run away and let him keep shooting.
 
2012-09-03 12:43:00 AM  
My mom is a teacher and they had to have a drill before school started where someone acted like a 'shooter' and they all had to do what they were supposed to do (hide in their locked rooms and wait to be phoned and checked on).

They can practice that but they when kids have an allergic reaction to peanuts they can't practice giving them Benadryl.

I am sure that what Alabama's education system *really* needs is for hundreds of thousands of dollars to be spent on training teachers (and students?) to be police officers. That money will not ensure that nobody is shot in the future, but it could be used to increase the % of kids who learn to read.
 
2012-09-03 12:44:30 AM  

gingerjet: Its always good to be prepared to defend yourselves and understand basic emergency protocols. Its also good to remember that you will most likely be killed by a car walking across the road after you purchased a six pack texting some babe who will never give you the time of day let alone a blow job than a school shooter.


I don't think I'd want a beej from a school shooter anyway.

/ Unless she was really, really hot
 
2012-09-03 12:46:52 AM  

Gdalescrboz: GAT_00

Republican logic. Oh no, people are getting shot due to incredibly lax gun laws! How do we fix this? MORE GUNS! That'll fix everything! It's the exact same argument as deregulation.

GAT, your slow fall from grace over the years has been painful. People, myself included, use to actually communicate with you. These days, everytime I see one of your post I immediately know, before even reading it, that the internet has been saturated with yet another opinion that could only have come from one fo the dumbest mother farkers alive and that by reading it, I will have done as much damage to my brain as a night of heavy binge drinking....but read I always do. You are like Kim Kardashian. Everytime i come across her on TV i stop for just one instant to see what dumb shiat she is going to say. I then take a few moments of silence to wheep for humanity and move on


You know why I never write things out anymore? I took the time to actually write out a long post with depth to it beyond the one line comment here with a lot more detail to my thinking than I usually put in here. Know why I don't do that all the time? Because apparently nobody read it. What's the point in writing stuff out if nobody reads it? The short stuff people read and yell at you for, so at least you have an actual discussion, a conversation. Nobody cares if you actually put thought into it.

So, in other words, if my comments aren't as good as they used to be, I have only adjusted to match what you all seem to want. I'm not going to waste my time writing treatises that nobody reads.

Of course, I doubt you'll come back and read this.
 
2012-09-03 01:08:21 AM  

GAT_00: Republican logic. Oh no, people are getting shot due to incredibly lax gun laws! How do we fix this? MORE GUNS! That'll fix everything! It's the exact same argument as deregulation.


Would you care to explain to us how more gun control laws will help? Criminals don't obey the laws already on the books. It's already illegal to bring a gun to a public place and shoot up the joint. That didn't stop the guy in Tucson who shot up the grocery store, killing several people and wounding the congresscritter. It didn't stop any of the kids who shot up their schools. It didn't stop Sideshow Bob from shooting up the theater in Colorado.

Also there are millions of guns out there. Nobody knows where most of them are. Some were never registered. Others were registered, but the owners who registered them have since sold or given them to others. If you get a law requiring everyone to turn in their guns, some people will. Others who are otherwise law abiding people will become criminals when they don't turn in their guns. The criminals, of course won't turn in their guns.

What's wrong with deregulation? If something is over regulated, it needs to be deregulated. The repeal of prohibition was deregulation. Are you saying prohibition should be brought back? Many would argue the prohibition of marijuana is an example of over regulation. I guess we can't legalize pot. That would be deregulation. I guess we also have to keep any legal obstacles that prevent two people of the same sex from getting married. Letting them get married would be another example of deregulation.
 
2012-09-03 01:10:13 AM  

Mentat: lewismarktwo: Gdalescrboz: Mentat

lewismarktwo: Yeah, I saw that video. It was total bullshiat. The guy busts into the room with his weapon drawn and shoots as many people as he can as soon as possible. That's called an AMBUSH. He knew who was in there and where they were and they had all been conveniently distracted. No amount of training can save you from that. That's why it works on professional soldiers too.

It's a good thing that never happens in real then, like say in a crowed movie theater.

Which is why we should teach abstinance, because as we all know, teaching safe sex doesnt always work

Don't respond as if he actually had a point or made any sense.

I'm sorry if I used too many words for you. You made a crack about ambushes to divert from my point. I made a sarcastic comment pointing out that such ambushes have happened in the recent past. Here, I'll give you another one.

Professor Amy Bishop walks into a faculty meeting at the University of Alabama Huntsville and opens fire, killing 3. She knew the room, she knew where people would be sitting, she started firing immediately. Same situation as the 20/20 scenario that you waved off as bullshiat.


You are dense aren't you? Of course ambushes exist. That's why we have the word ambush. Not all shootings are ambushes. You still have made no point.
 
2012-09-03 01:13:45 AM  
Hi

I live in a country where I don't need to worry about my kids getting shot in school or have to engage in mental gymnastics to try and convince myself and others that suggesting surprised children should seriously engage a mentally-disturbed gunman by throwing classroom objects at him.

It's great.

But then again, I guess I'm not as safe as you WHEN THE BRITISH RE-INVADE.
 
2012-09-03 01:15:47 AM  

Mentat: lewismarktwo: Gdalescrboz: Mentat

lewismarktwo:

...Professor Amy Bishop walks into a faculty meeting at the University of Alabama Huntsville and opens fire, killing 3. She knew the room, she knew where people would be sitting, she started firing immediately. Same situation as the 20/20 scenario that you waved off as bullshiat.


Except its not the same as the 20/20 piece, at least not the one I saw. The one I saw, which sounds strikingly familiar, had 1 armed person in the classroom, the rest were actors or cops or something. The "shooter" comes into the room, and knew exactly where the "armed" student was sitting. At least one of the armed students actually did tag the shooter, with a non-lethal kill, but being it was done with paint balls, the shooter kept shooting and tagged the sutdent, so 20/20 still counted that as the student was killed. Who knows in real life if the non-lethal shot would have been enough to disable the shooter.

Quite a bit different scenario than a shooter walking into a crowded room, having people running everywhere, screaming, who knows what else, and then being able to discern within all of that chaos the exact person who might be going for their conceleaded carry weapon.

So, yeah, the 20/20 episode was kinda BS.

Amy Bishop situation was not the same scenario. Amy Bishop was in a faculty meeting, sat there in the faculty meeting for some time, then stood up a began firing. This was a small room, small number of people, and after either she ran out of rounds, or had a gun malfunction - she was actually assaulted by the other faculty and so she ran away. Not the same as 20/20 at all.
 
2012-09-03 02:14:04 AM  

JWideman: LoneWolf343: JWideman: I think I read that in Israel, the school teachers are armed. I'm not sure if that's a standard thing or if it's just individual choice, but I do know that at least one teacher stopped a terrorist from killing kids. My point is, arming and training the teachers sounds like a really good idea. However, what the hell are unarmed children going to do? I mean, besides providing a target rich environment.

In Israel, virtually all of the adults have training due to mandatory military service, so it wouldn't exactly translate to the US well.

That's why I said train the teachers, not just arm them. But they'd have to get paid a hell of a lot more and paying teachers what they're worth is socialism or something.


You'd have to train them for far too many expensive hours to get a decent reaction time out of them. My sister is a high school teacher and has hardly even held a gun (I think clay pigeon shooting once in Germany is about it). She'd be absolutely useless in a physical confrontation with a gunman, I personally think. On the other hand she might be able to talk him to death; she certainly tries it on me during the holidays.
 
2012-09-03 02:33:24 AM  
The only logical solution is as follows:

1. Metal detectors and TSA pat downs at every room of every building
2. Every student will be issued Kevlar vests and full riot gear for the school year
3. Anyone caught carrying a gun onto campus will be executed that day. The execution must be aired on all major networks in prime time.
 
2012-09-03 03:55:51 AM  

propasaurus: LoneWolf343: It really changes the game when you turn a school from hundreds of running targets to hundreds of people conspiring to take you down.

Unless the game is "how many of you can I take down with me?"


It is marginally better than the game of "skeet". For everybody except the gunman, that is.
 
2012-09-03 04:07:33 AM  
One friend showed me such a video, aimed at office mice instead of teachers/students.
Of course, the first thing it taught was "run"-but as noted, this doesn't help for crap if there's only one entrance to the room you're in, or otherwise designed so that the only way out of the building is towards the sound of the shots.
Then it taught "fight", complete with lying in ambush at the door. But the ambush that was set up was HILARIOUS.

Okay, so you have a door, opens on a hinge which is screen-right, with a wall to that side so the door can only open 90 degrees, and inwards.
Five defenders, three male and two female. One female is being a panicky bint, so she's hors de combat. One male grabs the fire extinguisher, one male grabs a chair, and the remaining male and female grab heavy things to throw.

Fire extinguisher guy takes the point position, just inside the left side of the door...but he's holding the extinguisher like a club.

The door opens and our shooter shoulders in like a chump. No throwing the door open then using the range of his shotgun to rain death on the suckers inside-he walks in like he was coming to a meeting.

Fire extinguisher guy sees his chance. With a mighty battle cry, he swings the fire extinguisher. Chair guy rushes in, and throwers cock their arms back...and SCENE!

Good thing they stopped there, because a quarter second later Chair Guy would have doubtlessly beaned Fire Extinguisher Guy (who stepped between them to deliver his blow, completely abandoning the fact that his extinguisher could project a blinding spray of powder out ten feet), before being himself clobbered by thrown office supplies.
 
2012-09-03 04:55:13 AM  
In hopes that this might actually save a life some day . . . I've been pointing out for years that a backpack loaded with books has serious bullet stopping power against handguns. If you can jam 20" thickness of books into your backpack, that will stop a big rifle round.

And today I found a page where a guy actually did the experiment that proves this.

So anyone who feels inclined to charge the shooter should hold their backpack in FRONT. A few of those coming at him while other students shellack him with anything handy might tend to have a discouraging effect. Assuming he has you penned in a room and you can't just get out without confrontation.

Link
 
2012-09-03 09:35:35 AM  
GAT_00

Republican logic. Oh no, people are getting shot due to incredibly lax gun laws! How do we fix this? MORE GUNS! That'll fix everything! It's the exact same argument as deregulation.

Gat logic: curl up in a little ball on the floor and simper.

/// then lie about it everything later.
 
2012-09-03 10:03:12 AM  
This approach seems to have helped airlines. Now pilots have guns, flight attendants are trained in close quarters combat, and passengers don't take shiat from air rage nutjobs anymore.
 
2012-09-03 12:01:38 PM  
The recent theater shooting in Colorado consisted of one wackjob with a gun against a packed theater. What would have happened if 5 or 6 of the patrons would have headed towards the shooter instead of tumbling over the rest of the people running for the doors? Or someone would have been armed and could have shot back? One decently placed bullet would have stopped him.

Not everyone is expected to have the "fight" mentality.... but it seems like the entire population is expected to avoid confrontation. Shooters succeed because no one fights back. They want the fear and chaos.... why give them that satisfaction?

Most attackers/shooters are mentally farked up and have delusions of grandeur. They want to be in control of everyone and show how badass they are. Take this away from them and they are nothing again.
 
2012-09-03 12:10:03 PM  

dccc: Mentat: lewismarktwo: Gdalescrboz: Mentat

lewismarktwo:

...Professor Amy Bishop walks into a faculty meeting at the University of Alabama Huntsville and opens fire, killing 3. She knew the room, she knew where people would be sitting, she started firing immediately. Same situation as the 20/20 scenario that you waved off as bullshiat.

Except its not the same as the 20/20 piece, at least not the one I saw. The one I saw, which sounds strikingly familiar, had 1 armed person in the classroom, the rest were actors or cops or something. The "shooter" comes into the room, and knew exactly where the "armed" student was sitting. At least one of the armed students actually did tag the shooter, with a non-lethal kill, but being it was done with paint balls, the shooter kept shooting and tagged the sutdent, so 20/20 still counted that as the student was killed. Who knows in real life if the non-lethal shot would have been enough to disable the shooter.

Quite a bit different scenario than a shooter walking into a crowded room, having people running everywhere, screaming, who knows what else, and then being able to discern within all of that chaos the exact person who might be going for their conceleaded carry weapon.

So, yeah, the 20/20 episode was kinda BS.

Amy Bishop situation was not the same scenario. Amy Bishop was in a faculty meeting, sat there in the faculty meeting for some time, then stood up a began firing. This was a small room, small number of people, and after either she ran out of rounds, or had a gun malfunction - she was actually assaulted by the other faculty and so she ran away. Not the same as 20/20 at all.




No situation is going to be the same as in training. No reactions can ever be the same as training. But, by teaching people different options for what they can do IF something happens, you are empowering them to have a choice. They don't have just one option. Most people will still either run or cower and cry. But it only takes one person to change the situation. If I'm most likely going to die because some nutcase has a social complex, I would rather try to do something. It may not work, but at least I tried. And maybe someone else got away because I distracted the shooter.

Those 20/20 type demonstrations are crap IMO. All for entertainment.... and they end up teaching people that they are powerless.
 
2012-09-03 07:50:12 PM  
This really sounds better in theory than in practice. If everybody was on board, and surprised the attacker, then they would certainly reduce casualties and injuries. That's a really big if. Worst of all, even if they attack the attacker, the shooter is going to get some shots off, meaning someone can still get hurt or killed. People's natural instinct is self preservation. Even battle hardened soldiers abandon their posts because they get really friggen scared. It may look great on paper that this kind of training can reduce the number of deaths caused by a shooter, but the few that do take bullets aren't going to feel so great about it.
 
2012-09-03 10:56:19 PM  

tukatz: The recent theater shooting in Colorado consisted of one wackjob with a gun against a packed theater. What would have happened if 5 or 6 of the patrons would have headed towards the shooter instead of tumbling over the rest of the people running for the doors? Or someone would have been armed and could have shot back? One decently placed bullet would have stopped him.

Not everyone is expected to have the "fight" mentality.... but it seems like the entire population is expected to avoid confrontation. Shooters succeed because no one fights back. They want the fear and chaos.... why give them that satisfaction?

Most attackers/shooters are mentally farked up and have delusions of grandeur. They want to be in control of everyone and show how badass they are. Take this away from them and they are nothing again.


The theater was dark so if any of the attendees decided to return fire they could have easily hit, perhaps even killed one of the other theater goers in their attempt to take out the shooter. There's a time and place to act like a hero. A darkened theater full of panic stricken fleeing patrons isn't one of them.
 
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