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(Guardian)   Will Rory get killed again? Are the Daleks going to be the classic versions, or of the My Little Dalek: Extermination is Magic design? And just Who is The Doctor? Season 7 of Doctor Who begins with Asylum of the Daleks   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 457
    More: Spiffy, Daleks, mental hospital  
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1984 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Sep 2012 at 8:22 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-03 11:57:53 AM  

Jorn the Younger: Well, since the new Companion is supposed to be from the Victorian era, maybe the reason the Doctor takes her with him is that something in her voice reminds him of poor Oswin, who wanted to see the universe, but died before she got to, so this Victorian girl who wants to see the world, he shows her the universe.


The Doctor meets the new companion in Victorian England; we don't know yet whether she is from that era. Who knows, she could have been in the IT department aboard Demons Run, and hitched a ride when River took the other three back to 1888 in the hope of later becoming Charles Babbage's tutor, or River found her somewhere else in space/time, wasn't interested in having a girlfriend herself, but knew someone who might be.

Which would be fine. Or Oswin is the future daughter of [Clara?], or Oswin had gotten knocked up as a teen and put her baby up for adoption before signing on aboard Alaska; that baby could have grown up to be Clara, or a more distant descendant as was the case with Dodo. Or one could be the clone of the other, or they are twin sisters ("My sister became a cruise director; but her ship was lost and we never heard from her again."). Or Oswin could have uploaded herself a la River and somehow managed to recreate a new body, thereby giving the Doctor a way to rescue River from the Library. Anything other than yet another mobius.
 
2012-09-03 11:59:35 AM  

HopScotchNSoda:

I certainly hope that Oswin is not the future self of the next companion. That gag was interesting, but it is now tired, so tired. It's become a cliche joke. Most of the multi-episode companions, starting with Mel Bush, have mobius timelines with the Doctor. If you take all of the traditionally linear companions -- even including the three one-off companions who were already established non-companion characters -- there are only six traditional, linear relationships, and eight mobius relationships. It's no longer intriguing; it's a crutch.


I actually always thought they didn't do that enough, especially in the original series. He's a time traveler. He should meet lots of people in the "wrong" order. It was a plot hole that he met most people in a nice linear way all the time.
In the original series I can't remember anyone he met who who had met him already and knew him or where he knew them but they hadn't met him yet*, and it's still quite rare in the new series with River being one of the rare notable examples, the girl who died in AGMGTW and Queen Victoria being rare others. He meets dozens of people each week, 99% of them for the first time for both.
The first time he met the Daleks he'd never heard of them and vice versa! The Daleks! The biggest enemies of the Time Lords and he'd never heard of them! That would be like a time traveler who had spent years going back and forth on modern day Earth going to Berlin in 1938 and not knowing who Hitler was.

*Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.
 
2012-09-03 12:04:31 PM  

HopScotchNSoda:

Which would be fine. Or Oswin is the future daughter of [Clara?], or Oswin had gotten knocked up as a teen and put her baby up for adoption before signing on aboard Alaska; that baby could have grown up to be Clara, or a more distant descendant as was the case with Dodo. Or one could be the clone of the other, or they are twin sisters ("My sister became a cruise director; but her ship was lost and we never heard from her again."). Or Oswin could have uploaded herself a la River and somehow managed to recreate a new body, thereby giving the Doctor a way to rescue River from the Library. Anything other than yet another mobius.


My pick. The way Oswin said "Remember me" at the end and looked at the camera suggested she'd done something. The Nanobots could turn humans into Dalek drones so they should be able to turn a former human now in a Dalek casing back into a human body. Both Amy and the Doctor spent time exposed to the nano cloud, and with the revelation that Amy can't get pregnant I could see her finding herself suddenly pregnant and having a girl, calling her Clara, who grows up in months to become Oswin.
 
2012-09-03 12:20:02 PM  

Flint Ironstag: I actually always thought they didn't do that enough, especially in the original series. He's a time traveler. He should meet lots of people in the "wrong" order. It was a plot hole that he met most people in a nice linear way all the time.
In the original series I can't remember anyone he met who who had met him already and knew him or where he knew them but they hadn't met him yet*, and it's still quite rare in the new series with River being one of the rare notable examples, the girl who died in AGMGTW and Queen Victoria being rare others. He meets dozens of people each week, 99% of them for the first time for both.
The first time he met the Daleks he'd never heard of them and vice versa! The Daleks! The biggest enemies of the Time Lords and he'd never heard of them! That would be like a time traveler who had spent years going back and forth on modern day Earth going to Berlin in 1938 and not knowing who Hitler was.
*Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.


I agree that it is something that should have been examined more in the classic era. Overdoing it now, however, is not the answer.

In the classic era, "The Five Doctors" put Sarah Jane, Teegan, and Turlough into that position, as the First and Second Doctors thereby each met Sarah Jane before she first met the Third Doctor in The Time Warrior, and the First, Second and Third all met Tegan and Turlough before they first met, respectively, the Fourth and Fifth Doctors in Logopolis and Mawdryn Undead.

Mel Bush was conceived from the start to be out-of-sync. The Sixth Doctor first met her when she testified at his trial in Trial of a Time Lord, having already been travelling with him from her perspective. Baker's departure caused her first encounter with him to never be filmed; it took place off-screen between Trial of a Time Lord and Time and the Rani.

Rose met Nine as a baby when he was already travelling with her, and Ten a few months before she met Nine. Mickey met Nine as a small boy; Nine had already met adult Mickey. Nine and Ten both dealt with the Face of Boe and Jack Harkness independently in order, before learning why the Face of Boe calls the Doctor "Old Friend". Sarah Jane (see above). Martha met Ten on her way to work where he met her; at the end of the episode, he went back in time to bump into her on her way to work. You know all about River. Amelia met Eleven and her adult self at a fair two years before Eleven crashed into her back yard and met her. The only in-sync, multi-episode companions since Mel have been Ace, Adam, Donna, Wilfred, Rory, and Craig -- and half of those were only officially companions for one episode.
 
2012-09-03 12:22:01 PM  

Flint Ironstag:
My pick. The way Oswin said "Remember me" at the end and looked at the camera suggested she'd done something. The Nanobots could turn humans into Dalek drones so they should be able to turn a former human now in a Dalek casing back into a human body. Both Amy and the Doctor spent time exposed to the nano cloud, and with the revelation that Amy can't get pregnant I could see her finding herself suddenly pregnant and having a girl, calling her Clara, who grows up in months to become Oswin.


I knew I'd eventually hear an echo.
 
2012-09-03 12:27:01 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Jorn the Younger: Yeah, and even worse the version streaming on Netflix has it too - I went back through the series recently, and on getting series 6 all of a sudden the show thinks I've never watched before. I mean WTF?

I know, man. That really chapped my hide. I'm watching S6 with the girlfriend right now - I got her hooked with "Blink" about a year ago, then "The Girl in the Fireplace," then "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances," then "The Doctor's Wife" (she's a huge Gaiman fan), then we started in on Eccelston - and when we got to S6 on Netflix, I couldn't believe it.

foo monkey is going to think this justifies his "panties in a wad" statement, but I actually called Netflix to complain. I explained to the situation to the girl on the phone, pointed out that when watching on Netflix, nobody is going to start a TV show with Season 6, she agreed it was monumentally stupid, and said she's pass that up the line. Don't know what difference it will make, but everyone who care should do the same. Critical mass and all.


Weirdly enough the streaming version on Amazon Prime DOESN'T have the Amy Pond intro, so it's not like it's the only version out there for streaming services.
 
2012-09-03 12:33:12 PM  

Flint Ironstag: The first time he met the Daleks he'd never heard of them and vice versa! The Daleks! The biggest enemies of the Time Lords and he'd never heard of them! That would be like a time traveler who had spent years going back and forth on modern day Earth going to Berlin in 1938 and not knowing who Hitler was.


I've always figured that was because his timeline was instrumental in the Daleks becoming what they did. Think of all the times that he went back to their earliest histories and basically made it worse.
 
2012-09-03 12:37:10 PM  

Flint Ironstag: *Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.


Would you settle for knee-jerk, white-hot nerd rage and patronizing accusations that you're a lightweight poseur who is clearly just riding the bandwagon and has probably just only watched a few BBC America episodes from the last season or two? It's a holiday, let's skip all the boring research and go right to the fun part!
 
2012-09-03 12:47:33 PM  

Gunny Walker: dready zim: if she is a future version of the doctors companion why did she not recognise him?

Rule 1: The Doctor lies
Rule 1b: River lies
Rule 1c: Oswin lies? 

/I don't think she is a future version.


She couldn't be; otherwise she'd know he's the Doctor.
 
2012-09-03 01:02:06 PM  

OniExpress: Flint Ironstag: The first time he met the Daleks he'd never heard of them and vice versa! The Daleks! The biggest enemies of the Time Lords and he'd never heard of them! That would be like a time traveler who had spent years going back and forth on modern day Earth going to Berlin in 1938 and not knowing who Hitler was.

I've always figured that was because his timeline was instrumental in the Daleks becoming what they did. Think of all the times that he went back to their earliest histories and basically made it worse.


I'm still wondering why Skaro is still around when it was destroyed in 1988.
 
2012-09-03 01:22:45 PM  

Rwa2play: She couldn't be; otherwise she'd know he's the Doctor.


I certainly hope she isn't from the Doctor's future, but your reasoning is flawed. Her memory could be screwed up. See Jamie, Zoe, and Donna. Maybe she was never even a deputy entertainment director. The Daleks are familiar with the value of doctorial companions, as shown in this past episode. If she was a computer genius ex-companion, that would explain the Dalek's desire for the full conversion. She tries to convince them otherwise: "Doctor? Doctor who? My name's Oswin. I'm just an assistant entertainment director; this was my first trip into space." She adopts that persona as part of her coping mechanism.
 
2012-09-03 01:26:18 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: OniExpress: Flint Ironstag: The first time he met the Daleks he'd never heard of them and vice versa! The Daleks! The biggest enemies of the Time Lords and he'd never heard of them! That would be like a time traveler who had spent years going back and forth on modern day Earth going to Berlin in 1938 and not knowing who Hitler was.

I've always figured that was because his timeline was instrumental in the Daleks becoming what they did. Think of all the times that he went back to their earliest histories and basically made it worse.

I'm still wondering why Skaro is still around when it was destroyed in 1988.


Only explanation I can think of: Time Travel. This is either Skaro at some point before that happened, of the several hundred years of time travel just on the Doctor's part (not to mention the Daleks, the Silence, and all the Time Agent Wristband users) have lead to the planet not being "destroyed" so much as "permanently barren" like we saw it this time.

There's enough time travel happening, that basically the only way to be sure of something would be to stick right there and make sure that something damn well stays destroyed. If the Doctor can fake his own death, with all the scrutiny involved, I'd say that basically anyone or anything can manage the same.
 
2012-09-03 01:31:28 PM  
Y'know how this episode could have been improved? Make Oswin pure Dalek/Kaled. She's an ancient member of the race, one of the first converted. That destroyed her mind. Over the centuries on the Asylum, she's gone madder. She took control of the force field, she crashed the Alaska, all to support the fiction that she was spinning to herself.

That is officially what happened. I'm retconning it for coolness.
 
2012-09-03 01:34:38 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: //The only cure, ironically, is a bad Doctor
///McCoy cured me in the '80s, emo-Tennant almost cured me again a few years ago


McCoy a bad Doctor?

While some of the early Langford companion episodes were poor but when Aldred was the companion some of the sotries were amongst the best of all of the Doctor's. Remembrance of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and Ghostlight are fantastic with the climatic scene from Fenric is one of the best scenes in all of Who.
 
2012-09-03 01:41:29 PM  

Norfolking Chance: 100 Watt Walrus: //The only cure, ironically, is a bad Doctor
///McCoy cured me in the '80s, emo-Tennant almost cured me again a few years ago

McCoy a bad Doctor?

While some of the early Langford companion episodes were poor but when Aldred was the companion some of the sotries were amongst the best of all of the Doctor's. Remembrance of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and Ghostlight are fantastic with the climatic scene from Fenric is one of the best scenes in all of Who.


Remembrance was just too damn choppy, as were most Who serials of the era. Most of them feel like there's a whole episode of material missing, and in most cases, there is.

But, you're right that the Ace era, especially the final season, was pretty good. And the extended cuts of Battlefield and Fenric are worth spending money on the DVD to see.

/wish they had done extended cuts of all the McCoy era stuff and added back in the episode worth of material that was cut from every episode, so the stories would finally be coherent.
 
2012-09-03 01:57:38 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: I'm still wondering why Skaro is still around when it was destroyed in 1988.


It was shown intact at the beginning of the 1996 Doctor Who TV movie, which is pretty much canon for better or worse, and one of the Eighth Doctor Adventures novels retconned that the Hand of Omega destroyed a duplicate of Skaro and that the real Skaro survived. Even without that, you'd think that with the Time War rampaging across all of time and space, the previous status quo would be upset by the end of it and the Daleks would undo some of their previous losses.
 
2012-09-03 02:16:45 PM  

sinanju: Flint Ironstag:
My pick. The way Oswin said "Remember me" at the end and looked at the camera suggested she'd done something. The Nanobots could turn humans into Dalek drones so they should be able to turn a former human now in a Dalek casing back into a human body. Both Amy and the Doctor spent time exposed to the nano cloud, and with the revelation that Amy can't get pregnant I could see her finding herself suddenly pregnant and having a girl, calling her Clara, who grows up in months to become Oswin.

I knew I'd eventually hear an echo.


But you missed me compliment you for that very suggestion at 11:38:22?
 
2012-09-03 02:18:58 PM  

semiotix: Flint Ironstag: *Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.

Would you settle for knee-jerk, white-hot nerd rage and patronizing accusations that you're a lightweight poseur who is clearly just riding the bandwagon and has probably just only watched a few BBC America episodes from the last season or two? It's a holiday, let's skip all the boring research and go right to the fun part!


Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!

You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!
 
2012-09-03 02:28:57 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!
You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!


I hope that my earlier response did not come across as patronising nor otherwise antagonistic.
 
2012-09-03 02:38:52 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: Flint Ironstag: Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!
You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!

I hope that my earlier response did not come across as patronising nor otherwise antagonistic.


No, I took it as a humorous comment indicative of the typical DW infighting on the net. No offence taken.

/We really need a sarcasm font.
//To be fair I have missed lots of the later Doctors episodes.
 
2012-09-03 02:53:13 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Norfolking Chance: 100 Watt Walrus: //The only cure, ironically, is a bad Doctor
///McCoy cured me in the '80s, emo-Tennant almost cured me again a few years ago

McCoy a bad Doctor?

While some of the early Langford companion episodes were poor but when Aldred was the companion some of the sotries were amongst the best of all of the Doctor's. Remembrance of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and Ghostlight are fantastic with the climatic scene from Fenric is one of the best scenes in all of Who.

Remembrance was just too damn choppy, as were most Who serials of the era. Most of them feel like there's a whole episode of material missing, and in most cases, there is.

But, you're right that the Ace era, especially the final season, was pretty good. And the extended cuts of Battlefield and Fenric are worth spending money on the DVD to see.

/wish they had done extended cuts of all the McCoy era stuff and added back in the episode worth of material that was cut from every episode, so the stories would finally be coherent.


Yep, there were some moments in Remembrance where I wondered what the hell was going on, but once I teased out the details, the show really was one of the best. That's the way it seemed to be with most of the Ace stories (though there were some crappy ones). I remember watching Ghost Light for the first time and wondering what the hell was happening. When I read a little more about the story, it made perfect sense. It's a shame they couldn't throw in one more episode to decompress the narrative a bit more.

/Ghost Light was originally supposed to explore Ace's sexually abused childhood, from what I heard
//McCoy had the opposite problem of Tom Baker: many of Baker's arcs were a few episodes too long
 
2012-09-03 03:12:09 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: FirstNationalBastard: Norfolking Chance: 100 Watt Walrus: //The only cure, ironically, is a bad Doctor
///McCoy cured me in the '80s, emo-Tennant almost cured me again a few years ago

McCoy a bad Doctor?

While some of the early Langford companion episodes were poor but when Aldred was the companion some of the sotries were amongst the best of all of the Doctor's. Remembrance of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and Ghostlight are fantastic with the climatic scene from Fenric is one of the best scenes in all of Who.

Remembrance was just too damn choppy, as were most Who serials of the era. Most of them feel like there's a whole episode of material missing, and in most cases, there is.

But, you're right that the Ace era, especially the final season, was pretty good. And the extended cuts of Battlefield and Fenric are worth spending money on the DVD to see.

/wish they had done extended cuts of all the McCoy era stuff and added back in the episode worth of material that was cut from every episode, so the stories would finally be coherent.

Yep, there were some moments in Remembrance where I wondered what the hell was going on, but once I teased out the details, the show really was one of the best. That's the way it seemed to be with most of the Ace stories (though there were some crappy ones). I remember watching Ghost Light for the first time and wondering what the hell was happening. When I read a little more about the story, it made perfect sense. It's a shame they couldn't throw in one more episode to decompress the narrative a bit more.

/Ghost Light was originally supposed to explore Ace's sexually abused childhood, from what I heard
//McCoy had the opposite problem of Tom Baker: many of Baker's arcs were a few episodes too long


Stupid BBC had cut the show down to 14 episode seasons for the McCoy era, so each 3 episode serial literally lost an episode worth of material. On the DVDs from the McCoy era, there's usually around 20 minutes of deleted and extended scenes that, if reintegrated, would probably make the everything make sense.

In the case of Battlefield and Fenric, the Restoration Team did make extended cuts of the serials and edited them into one long film, which helped immensely.

Maybe next year, after the final classic serials are released on DVD, they'll go back and do more feature length special editions (and reconstruct with animation the couple remaining Hartnell and Troughton serials with at least half the episodes surviving). Because you know BBC isn't going to give up on the cash cow so easily.
 
2012-09-03 03:21:53 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Yep, there were some moments in Remembrance where I wondered what the hell was going on, but once I teased out the details, the show really was one of the best. That's the way it seemed to be with most of the Ace stories (though there were some crappy ones). I remember watching Ghost Light for the first time and wondering what the hell was happening. When I read a little more about the story, it made perfect sense. It's a shame they couldn't throw in one more episode to decompress the narrative a bit more.

/Ghost Light was originally supposed to explore Ace's sexually abused childhood, from what I heard
//McCoy had the opposite problem of Tom Baker: many of Baker's arcs were a few episodes too long

Ghost Light

also made a little less sense than it should have because it lacked the foreshadowing that it was supposed to have. It was intended to air after Curse of Fenric. Ace talks about her past and that house in when working with her grandmother in Fenric. It's just like what happened with "Let's Kill Hitler" when "Night Terrors" with its exchange between mum and the boy ("What do we do with things we don't like?" "We put them in the cupboard.") was moved to the second half of the season.

I don't know about her sexually abused past having supposed to be explored in Ghost Light. Ian Briggs, the writer who created her, said that it was supposed to have been more explicit in Dragonfire that she had lost her cherry to Sabalom Glitz. It was obvious that they were an ex-couple or a couple with problems, but not that he had popped her cork. She all but directly states to the Doctor in Fenric that she is not a virgin. She had burned down the by-then abandoned house when she was 13 (long after Ghost Light from the house's perspective) following her black friend's flat being torched and sensing an evil aura from the house.
 
2012-09-03 04:12:47 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Yep, there were some moments in Remembrance where I wondered what the hell was going on, but once I teased out the details, the show really was one of the best. That's the way it seemed to be with most of the Ace stories (though there were some crappy ones). I remember watching Ghost Light for the first time and wondering what the hell was happening. When I read a little more about the story, it made perfect sense. It's a shame they couldn't throw in one more episode to decompress the narrative a bit more.

/Ghost Light was originally supposed to explore Ace's sexually abused childhood, from what I heard
//McCoy had the opposite problem of Tom Baker: many of Baker's arcs were a few episodes too long

Ghost Light also made a little less sense than it should have because it lacked the foreshadowing that it was supposed to have. It was intended to air after Curse of Fenric. Ace talks about her past and that house in when working with her grandmother in Fenric. It's just like what happened with "Let's Kill Hitler" when "Night Terrors" with its exchange between mum and the boy ("What do we do with things we don't like?" "We put them in the cupboard.") was moved to the second half of the season.

I don't know about her sexually abused past having supposed to be explored in Ghost Light. Ian Briggs, the writer who created her, said that it was supposed to have been more explicit in Dragonfire that she had lost her cherry to Sabalom Glitz. It was obvious that they were an ex-couple or a couple with problems, but not that he had popped her cork. She all but directly states to the Doctor in Fenric that she is not a virgin. She had burned down the by-then abandoned house when she was 13 (long after Ghost Light from the house's perspective) following her black friend's flat being torched and sensing an evil aura from the house.


In one of the DWMs, Sophie Aldred mentioned that the wanted to take Ace into the direction that she was abused as a child in the orphanage, which was one of the reasons she burnt it down (evil aura being metaphorical). The idea may not have made it past the initial discussions, but watching both Fenric and Ghost Light with the possibility in mind makes for a new spin on Ace's hatred and desire to blow shiat up.
 
2012-09-03 04:14:29 PM  

Flint Ironstag:
But you missed me compliment you for that very suggestion at 11:38:22?


D'oh! Forgot that was you.

/Now I'm in the echo chamber
//Or am I stuck inside a Dalek?
 
2012-09-03 04:14:45 PM  

Flint Ironstag: semiotix: Flint Ironstag: *Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.

Would you settle for knee-jerk, white-hot nerd rage and patronizing accusations that you're a lightweight poseur who is clearly just riding the bandwagon and has probably just only watched a few BBC America episodes from the last season or two? It's a holiday, let's skip all the boring research and go right to the fun part!

Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!

You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!


Yes, no comments should be made before extensive research. Get to it!

And you are clearly not as hard-core as me, I knit my own scarf ;P Granted, I was in college and already knew how to knit...

/What the hell I'm going to do with a giant wool scarf now that I'm in Virginia, I have no idea
//My roommate and I used to wear it together to go to meals during winter, because we could
 
2012-09-03 04:19:35 PM  

Luthien's Tempest: Flint Ironstag: semiotix: Flint Ironstag: *Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.

Would you settle for knee-jerk, white-hot nerd rage and patronizing accusations that you're a lightweight poseur who is clearly just riding the bandwagon and has probably just only watched a few BBC America episodes from the last season or two? It's a holiday, let's skip all the boring research and go right to the fun part!

Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!

You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!

Yes, no comments should be made before extensive research. Get to it!

And you are clearly not as hard-core as me, I knit my own scarf ;P Granted, I was in college and already knew how to knit...

/What the hell I'm going to do with a giant wool scarf now that I'm in Virginia, I have no idea
//My roommate and I used to wear it together to go to meals during winter, because we could


It gets rather cold in Virginia in the winter. And if the weather is as bad as the overly-panicky media claims it's going to be, you'll be glad you have a 14-foot long scarf.

/but you should also knit a nice Question Mark sweater to go along with it.
 
2012-09-03 05:13:39 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Luthien's Tempest: Flint Ironstag: semiotix: Flint Ironstag: *Of course I am ready to be corrected on this with dozens of examples that I have forgotten.

Would you settle for knee-jerk, white-hot nerd rage and patronizing accusations that you're a lightweight poseur who is clearly just riding the bandwagon and has probably just only watched a few BBC America episodes from the last season or two? It's a holiday, let's skip all the boring research and go right to the fun part!

Hey! Four was my Doctor, and I still have the twelve foot long scarf I got my grandmother to knit me!

You want me to rewatch 26 seasons of a TV series just to make a comment on Fark?!

Yes, no comments should be made before extensive research. Get to it!

And you are clearly not as hard-core as me, I knit my own scarf ;P Granted, I was in college and already knew how to knit...

/What the hell I'm going to do with a giant wool scarf now that I'm in Virginia, I have no idea
//My roommate and I used to wear it together to go to meals during winter, because we could

It gets rather cold in Virginia in the winter. And if the weather is as bad as the overly-panicky media claims it's going to be, you'll be glad you have a 14-foot long scarf.

/but you should also knit a nice Question Mark sweater to go along with it.


I suppose it probably will get cold, but being so close to the beach will probably keep it from getting really cold (I'm in the Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Langley area); I hardly had occasion to wear it to class up at PSU, because it would keep me too warm on my way to class. Also, I loved wearing it and hated finding a place to stash it during class, though at least now my desk/cubicle is in the same building as all of my classes. For now, though, I have it hanging on hooks on the outside of my bedroom door.

The sadist in me is hoping for snow. Not a lot, just a couple inches. It will be hilarious watching the panic. The other new grad student in my department is from Louisiana, that thought does not amuse him nearly as much as it amuses me.

Sweaters and I don't get along. I love wearing them, but lack the patience to knit them. I can never get the front and back to match up (and I *hate* little needles - which is probably why the blanket I knit for my ex while we were dating had three strands, used giant needles, and could be used instead of a comforter and a blanket), and I suspect my question mark would look far more amoeba-like than it ought. Maybe when I'm done grad school...
 
2012-09-03 06:31:38 PM  

Shazam999: Which was an update of this guy:


I think the new ones are a combination, they're slaves like the Robomen, with no thoughts of their own, but the eye-stalk and gun have a lot more in common with the Resurrection style servants of the Daleks.
 
2012-09-03 08:09:58 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: I'm still wondering why Skaro is still around when it was destroyed in 1988.


they might be in 1987
 
2012-09-03 09:13:27 PM  

BarryJV: the eye-stalk and gun have a lot more in common with the Resurrection style servants of the Daleks.


Only in design; in Resurrection, it was just a helmet. They could take them off.
 
2012-09-04 01:08:57 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: ///granted, "Mel" should have been foreshadowed earlier, somehow


With you 100% on this. The character of Mel was pulled out of Moffat's ass for "Let's Kill Hitler," and she was a lousy character too - not the kind of person Amy and Rory would have been best friends with, nor the kind of person who would have been best friends with Amy and Rory. Also, not the kind of person the Doctor would let into the TARDIS, gun or not.

Of course, Moffat seems perfectly willing to play fast and loose with the character traits of Amy and Rory. Rory finds his inner bad-ass in one episode, and in the next he's back to Mr. Milquetoast. In "The Girl Who Waited" (which I just re-watched today as I get my girl caught up on "Doctor Who"), the two of them are set up as having an unbreakable bond of love between them and that they can work through anything togther, and in "Asylum of the Daleks" we're supposed to believe that they wouldn't have talked about the not having children issue like the adult super-couple they're supposed to be, and that instead Amy would set out on a campaign to drive Rory out so he could have biological kids with somebody else - as if the guy who waited 2000 years for her would ever even try to find somebody else. The fact that they didn't talk it out makes the characters (especially Amy) suddenly, and almost insurmountably unlikable.

The more I think about that one, the more pissed off I get at Moffat for treating these two like a blank slate onto which he can draw whatever emotions he needs for this week's episode.
 
2012-09-04 01:32:08 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: StreetlightInTheGhetto: ///granted, "Mel" should have been foreshadowed earlier, somehow

With you 100% on this. The character of Mel was pulled out of Moffat's ass for "Let's Kill Hitler," and she was a lousy character too - not the kind of person Amy and Rory would have been best friends with, nor the kind of person who would have been best friends with Amy and Rory. Also, not the kind of person the Doctor would let into the TARDIS, gun or not.


Assuming he had the sixth season and Mel in mind as far as River Song was concerned, Mel could easily have been foreshadowed at Amy's wedding, or the night Amy farked off with the Doctor before the wedding, Mel could have put the idea into her head to go.

Wouldn't have been that hard to do. Just a brief appearance, maybe a mention or two.
 
2012-09-04 01:35:55 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: 100 Watt Walrus: StreetlightInTheGhetto: ///granted, "Mel" should have been foreshadowed earlier, somehow

With you 100% on this. The character of Mel was pulled out of Moffat's ass for "Let's Kill Hitler," and she was a lousy character too - not the kind of person Amy and Rory would have been best friends with, nor the kind of person who would have been best friends with Amy and Rory. Also, not the kind of person the Doctor would let into the TARDIS, gun or not.

Assuming he had the sixth season and Mel in mind as far as River Song was concerned, Mel could easily have been foreshadowed at Amy's wedding, or the night Amy farked off with the Doctor before the wedding, Mel could have put the idea into her head to go.

Wouldn't have been that hard to do. Just a brief appearance, maybe a mention or two.


Holy crap.

Mrs. Angelo in the 11th hour is name dropped in Forest of the Dead ("Mrs Angelo's rhubarb surprise, will I ever learn").

Effing a, I'm still going with Mrs Angelo = River. Especially since that was the excuse he gave for the Dr breaking through to Donna.
 
2012-09-04 01:50:54 AM  

Norfolking Chance: 100 Watt Walrus: //The only cure, ironically, is a bad Doctor
///McCoy cured me in the '80s, emo-Tennant almost cured me again a few years ago

McCoy a bad Doctor?

While some of the early Langford companion episodes were poor but when Aldred was the companion some of the sotries were amongst the best of all of the Doctor's. Remembrance of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and Ghostlight are fantastic with the climatic scene from Fenric is one of the best scenes in all of Who.


It wasn't the stories. I just found McCoy's Doctor to be insufferable. I'd liked every Doctor up to that point, and have liked every one since (although I found McGann to be underwhelming), but McCoy just rubbed the the wrong way from the get-go. He always stuck me as an insecure little man putting on airs. I just wanted to punch him.

I tried giving him another chance recently. About a year ago I watched his few episodes available to stream on Netflix, and while he wasn't as nails-on-a-chalkboard to me this time, I still didn't care for him, which could have had a bearing on the fact that I was also not all that impressed by the stories ("Ghost Light" and "Fenric").

/Never really liked Ace, either.
 
2012-09-04 01:54:17 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Holy crap.

Mrs. Angelo in the 11th hour is name dropped in Forest of the Dead ("Mrs Angelo's rhubarb surprise, will I ever learn").

Effing a, I'm still going with Mrs Angelo = River. Especially since that was the excuse he gave for the Dr breaking through to Donna.


Not sure I follow that last sentence. To who are you referring when you say "the excuse he gave" and what do you mean by "the Doctor breaking through to Donna."
 
2012-09-04 02:10:40 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Holy crap.

Mrs. Angelo in the 11th hour is name dropped in Forest of the Dead ("Mrs Angelo's rhubarb surprise, will I ever learn").

Effing a, I'm still going with Mrs Angelo = River. Especially since that was the excuse he gave for the Dr breaking through to Donna.

Not sure I follow that last sentence. To who are you referring when you say "the excuse he gave" and what do you mean by "the Doctor breaking through to Donna."


When Dr Moon flickers and the Doctor comes through to Donna, after he un-flickers he says it was Mrs Angelo's rhubarb pie that did it.

That can't be an effing coincidence, name-wise. I can buy props reusing a broach. That showing up in the 2/2 River Song episode, not so much.

/Mel was still lame, though
//not the actress necessarily but as far as the storyline
///the fact that she was so clumsily handled is making me doubt this - but Mrs Angelo showing up more than once, over 2 different Doctors and Companions, eh...
 
2012-09-04 02:24:24 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: 100 Watt Walrus: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Holy crap.

Mrs. Angelo in the 11th hour is name dropped in Forest of the Dead ("Mrs Angelo's rhubarb surprise, will I ever learn").

Effing a, I'm still going with Mrs Angelo = River. Especially since that was the excuse he gave for the Dr breaking through to Donna.

Not sure I follow that last sentence. To who are you referring when you say "the excuse he gave" and what do you mean by "the Doctor breaking through to Donna."

When Dr Moon flickers and the Doctor comes through to Donna, after he un-flickers he says it was Mrs Angelo's rhubarb pie that did it.

That can't be an effing coincidence, name-wise. I can buy props reusing a broach. That showing up in the 2/2 River Song episode, not so much.

/Mel was still lame, though
//not the actress necessarily but as far as the storyline
///the fact that she was so clumsily handled is making me doubt this - but Mrs Angelo showing up more than once, over 2 different Doctors and Companions, eh...


So the fact that Angelo is name dropped in the library episode isn't mentioned here:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Angelo

But there is another (non-Moffat) episode that has the same name, and there was the first-name-Angelo soldier in the 11th doctor Stone Angel episode (eh, maybe it's first, just Cleric Angelo).

So.... I guess I know what I'm watching next.

/but not tonight
//sweet dreams
///was watching with CC; definitely "Mrs Angelo"
 
2012-09-04 02:30:42 AM  
Sorry, it's rhubarb surprise, not rhubarb pie.

In any case.
 
2012-09-04 02:33:51 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: When Dr Moon flickers and the Doctor comes through to Donna, after he un-flickers he says it was Mrs Angelo's rhubarb pie that did it.

That can't be an effing coincidence, name-wise. I can buy props reusing a broach. That showing up in the 2/2 River Song episode, not so much.

/Mel was still lame, though
//not the actress necessarily but as far as the storyline
///the fact that she was so clumsily handled is making me doubt this - but Mrs Angelo showing up more than once, over 2 different Doctors and Companions, eh...


Not sure if this helps or hurts your theory, but there was also a Cleric surnamed Angelo in "The Time of Angels," also Series 5, and also a River Song episode. Then again, maybe Moffat just likes the name.

If Mrs Angelo is River, I'm calling retcon on Moffat. There's nothing in Mrs Angelo's behavior to indicate she's anything other than a slightly batty old broad. If she were River, I think she'd attempt to help in some way rather than just sit there baffled by her TV running the same program on every channel.

But then again, Moffat doesn't seem to care whether he's flat-out lying to the audience or not, so I wouldn't put it past him. There are many examples of characters who behave a certain way with not even a hint of there being another level to their behavior (sometimes even when nobody but the audience is watching), then it turns out they were putting on an act. And usually if you look at those cases closely, their original behavior doesn't make sense, once the "truth" has been revealed, so who knows what that guy's gonna go.
 
2012-09-04 02:35:49 AM  
Streetlight, my friend, we're officially way too obsessed with this.
 
2012-09-04 02:48:04 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: Streetlight, my friend, we're officially way too obsessed with this.


Cheers to that!

100 Watt Walrus: If she were River, I think she'd attempt to help in some way rather than just sit there baffled by her TV running the same program on every channel.


If she did start aging like a normal person at some point, then maybe just an age/memory thing, not recognizing the 11th at first since the 10th was the most recent in her mind from when the aging process started, I don't know. It's possible it's not River either, which I was almost (reluctantly) convinced about until noticing that name drop tonight, dammit.

/just gonna go ahead and blame the SO for all of this
//both for working so damn hard to get me into the show in the first place, and then for getting Netflix
 
2012-09-04 02:53:31 AM  
Also, *this* is why Fark need pinned discussion threads for certain things. :)

G'night for real now.
 
2012-09-04 02:56:30 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Rwa2play: StreetlightInTheGhetto: FirstNationalBastard: Did you miss the, approximately, 50 Doctor Who articles on FARK the past week?

Yeah, actually. Been camping all week. Crappy 3G even in town (for all 4 of us who all had different cells and providers). Just got back today.

Damn! Kinda sucked to be you then, since they've been airing the last two seasons since Friday.

/unless you have them DVRed.
//or Netflixed
///or on DVD

Netflix.

/and expat shield
//ahem

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I'll probably go back and watch 10 and other episodes here and there if they're referenced in current episodes, but man, I gotta draw a line in the sand. Way. too. many. hours of this.

Speaking of which, if anyone can rattle off a "essential episodes" list, that'd be cool.

From just the new series?

Rose and Dalek from Doctor #9

10:

Christmas Invasion
New Earth
School Reunion
Girl in the Fireplace
Runaway Bride
Blink
All of season 4
And, I guess End of Time parts 1 and 2, if you want to see the most emo regeneration ever.

As for classic... well, give me some time if you're talking about classic.


Just noticed this post, and I would absolutely add "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" for Eccelston. Those episodes are fantastic and scary as hell. The only shortcoming is John Barrowman's overacting and complete inability to convincingly hold a gun. Captain Jack is still a fun character - and this is his introduction - but that guy just doesn't know how to dial it down a notch.
 
2012-09-04 03:20:20 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: FirstNationalBastard: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Rwa2play: StreetlightInTheGhetto: FirstNationalBastard: Did you miss the, approximately, 50 Doctor Who articles on FARK the past week?

Yeah, actually. Been camping all week. Crappy 3G even in town (for all 4 of us who all had different cells and providers). Just got back today.

Damn! Kinda sucked to be you then, since they've been airing the last two seasons since Friday.

/unless you have them DVRed.
//or Netflixed
///or on DVD

Netflix.

/and expat shield
//ahem

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I'll probably go back and watch 10 and other episodes here and there if they're referenced in current episodes, but man, I gotta draw a line in the sand. Way. too. many. hours of this.

Speaking of which, if anyone can rattle off a "essential episodes" list, that'd be cool.

From just the new series?

Rose and Dalek from Doctor #9

10:

Christmas Invasion
New Earth
School Reunion
Girl in the Fireplace
Runaway Bride
Blink
All of season 4
And, I guess End of Time parts 1 and 2, if you want to see the most emo regeneration ever.

As for classic... well, give me some time if you're talking about classic.

Just noticed this post, and I would absolutely add "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" for Eccelston. Those episodes are fantastic and scary as hell. The only shortcoming is John Barrowman's overacting and complete inability to convincingly hold a gun. Captain Jack is still a fun character - and this is his introduction - but that guy just doesn't know how to dial it down a notch.


I agree.

I also would say that episode 7, the one about Rose's father, and the last couple episodes of the season are needed. The final episode definitely, so one can see what a regeneration is supposed to look like before the Tenth Doctor ruins the whole concept.
 
2012-09-04 03:25:54 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: I agree.

I also would say that episode 7, the one about Rose's father, and the last couple episodes of the season are needed. The final episode definitely, so one can see what a regeneration is supposed to look like before the Tenth Doctor ruins the whole concept.


Amen, brother.

/Semi-off-topic: I sometimes stew over how jaw-dropping Eccelston's regeneration would have been had that Beeb publicist not spilled the beans
 
2012-09-04 03:29:00 AM  

t3knomanser: rynthetyn: It's pretty amazing that nobody got spoilered on Jenna Louise Coleman being in the episode despite it having screened publicly weeks ago.

It was announced that she was in it a long time ago. There was much debate as to whether she was appearing as her companion character, or as somebody else. It's pretty common for actresses to reappear in different roles. Karen Gillian was in the Rome episode.

Now, for it to happen in the same season- well, that would be odd.


Got any citation for this? It seems odd if this were true, seeing as Steven Moffat said this:

"I hope you all got a nice surprise when Jenna popped up in Doctor Who several months early. If so, that surprise came to you courtesy of the frankly magnificent ladies and gentlemen of the press, and of the many Doctor Who forums and blogs too. This show has been seen at four separate screenings, across four different countries and yet not one person gave one spoiler. From all of us on Doctor Who, a heartfelt thank you for helping us tell our story."
 
2012-09-04 04:32:39 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: FirstNationalBastard: I agree.

I also would say that episode 7, the one about Rose's father, and the last couple episodes of the season are needed. The final episode definitely, so one can see what a regeneration is supposed to look like before the Tenth Doctor ruins the whole concept.

Amen, brother.

/Semi-off-topic: I sometimes stew over how jaw-dropping Eccelston's regeneration would have been had that Beeb publicist not spilled the beans


I just hope that when 11 goes out, it's something closer to Eccleston's regeneration, or Davison into Baker 2 than Ten into 11 or Baker 2 into McCoy.
 
2012-09-04 05:10:00 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: I just hope that when 11 goes out, it's something closer to Eccleston's regeneration, or Davison into Baker 2 than Ten into 11 or Baker 2 into McCoy.


Nice, Matt. Nice. But how about you try the line like this:

"I don't WAAAAAAAAAAAAANNA gooooo!"
 
2012-09-04 05:39:32 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: FirstNationalBastard: I just hope that when 11 goes out, it's something closer to Eccleston's regeneration, or Davison into Baker 2 than Ten into 11 or Baker 2 into McCoy.

Nice, Matt. Nice. But how about you try the line like this:

"I don't WAAAAAAAAAAAAANNA gooooo!"


Hey, RTD found a way to make Sylvester McCoy in a clown wig bumping his head on the floor into a respectable regeneration.

That takes talent.
 
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