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(NCSoft)   I guess in the end, the good guys don't win. Farewell to more than five years of superheroes   (na.cityofheroes.com) divider line 123
    More: Sad, Paragon Studios, Paragon system  
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12198 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Sep 2012 at 10:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-01 02:04:59 PM
It has been years since I played CoH. It was my first and only MMO, and while it had major issues it was still a great time. I played every type of tank and did so before the major overhaul that made playing them manageable.(started out with invuln tank without teleport back when status protection made you unable to move) Unfortunate that it is going, but understandable.

/Leehouse, virtue server.
 
2012-09-01 02:05:31 PM

Rreal: / Shao Pai Long, Virtue Server
// MA/Regen Scrapper back from the days when even mentioning regen made blasters butthurt


I always missed the drama in the forums. Why did Regen make blasters butthurt again?

/Felgraf, Pinnacle. Fire/Ice blaster, just for theme.
//Fire Mastery and the Medicine power pool apparently made me surprisingly useful on occasion! I could take our group from a wipe to back up-and running, by Rise of the Phoneix-ing, and then rezzing the defender while I was invulnerable. That was always fun.
 
2012-09-01 02:05:39 PM
I thought CoH was a good game, just not a great MMO.
 
2012-09-01 02:08:50 PM
I really hope the wiki and things stay up. I really, really loved the backstory and world-setting, and would love to use it in a GURPS-ish game sometime.

/I know there is a CoH specific pen-and-paper, I just don't know how GOOD it is.
 
2012-09-01 02:09:35 PM

bingo the psych-o: NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.

If you can word it you can verb it.


Verbing weirds language.
 
2012-09-01 02:15:24 PM

cirby: I hope this is the death knell for the "free to play" and "freemium" games trend.

They're never free - they just move the expense from one not-very-large monthly fee to a whole bunch of small fees (for everything from new costumes to auction house access). It might, if you're careful, cost slightly less per month, but overall the expense + annoyance is worse.


From what I've seen, F2P games are taking over the market. Game companies see it as the next big cash cow, having seen it successfully done by Valve, Zynga, and others. The subscription model used from the late nineties has fallen by the wayside, along with the derelicts of many traditional MMOs that had big promise but ultimately failed.
 
2012-09-01 02:19:14 PM

Codenamechaz: Tenatra: dababler: NcSoft is making a large mistake here, they are alienating a large player base. Practivally every post on CoH's boards are "We understand MMO's are not eternal but I'll never play a NcSoft game again based on how horribly you handled this".

Idle threats by people that don't have any will to move on with their lives, people are doing the same thing to Blizzard. Every update gets the same response about how blizz dropped the ball/people saying they are never going to play another Blizz game YET those same people are still sticking around to complain every day and raise a storm after each patch is released even though they already quit playing for good and will never buy another Blizz prouct. You will likely see these same types of players running rampant on the NCsoft forums denouncing NCsoft for whatever they do but still stick around as nuisances.

How can NCsoft handle it better? The customers already know that MMOs don't go on forever. Do they need more time to part with their virtual heroes? Will there ever be a time when they could move on and live without their heroes? If the answer is no to that last question then they were going to get this same response whenever they shut it down.

Well, most of the problem is how NCSoft is handling this.

From what I understand, apparently Aion's transition to F2P bombed heavily, and that game had already been bleeding NCSoft. But because they're unwilling to give it up, Paragon is taking the fall.


What a terrible business decision. No large river refuses any small stream.
 
2012-09-01 02:25:32 PM
Lol, qq-ers.

Bend over and feel my SWG for a while. Blizzard is a pale imitator.

NCsoft "lost" as in "misplaced" six point four MILLION dollars this year. They literally farked themselves for the total value of CoH and now they're paying severance on CoH employees... which is like farking yourself again for farking yourself too much.

Stupid. Incompetent. Bad model. Poor quality games. Copies of failures. Then they take their only actual success and fail it too.
 
2012-09-01 02:37:40 PM

GRCooper: Poorlytoldjoke: I played ultima online once. the second I got out of town I was attacked by people. I respawned and then was killed by a bunny rabbit. I've never given an MMO another thought.

Which is exactly why PKing was removed (well, severely curtailed) probably not long after you played.

Come back, as an industry MMO developers have learned a lot since then.

/it would have been worth it for you to stick around to hear the butthurt from the player killers when they got gelded
//hell, one will probably start foaming at the mouth and respond to this


When Everquest first came out, right after UO had it's big boom, I had friends who wanted me to play.

I'd heard the horror stories of PvP on UO and told them I didn't want any part of it. They told me that EQ had solved the problem.

More-or-less it had. You couldn't attack or be attacked by another player unless you had consented, which to do so required a very specific act, but it was also completely irreversable and becoming PvP meant that PvE players couldn't heal or buff you, so there was pretty much no reason to be PvP on a normal server.

Of course, EQ had it's own huge flaws like having to grind so horribly hard to get ahead and having such harsh death penalties that a casual player would never see anything close to the bulk of the content, and making quests so Byzantine and obscure that elaborate quests were things you looked up on the web, not found in person. Getting totally lost in the woods or even in a main city were routine occurrences. The fact that the city maps in the very first EQ users manual were outright wrong (seriously, the map of Kelethin in there was total fiction!), meant I spent entire nights just trying to find my skill trainer.

I was a casual EQ player for 2 years, and never was able to get my main character over 27th level because I was interested in roleplaying, exploring, and trade skills instead of just camping spawns all the time. Thus, I never saw the bulk of the game in anything except screenshots.

I played WoW for about a year. It was much better, but still a huge timesink. I now play DDO off-and-on, and I'm considering trying out Guild Wars since my wife likes it so much.
 
2012-09-01 02:51:53 PM
Never played it, but stopped at a cybercafe in LA and saw a homeless guy playing it.

Didn't see if his character was modeled after Rorschach.

Wrists got f'ked up from that timesink called WoW, so I'm avoiding MMO's. Was going to make an exception for the Warhammer 40K MMO but that was cancelled ...
 
2012-09-01 02:55:07 PM

Felgraf: Rreal: / Shao Pai Long, Virtue Server
// MA/Regen Scrapper back from the days when even mentioning regen made blasters butthurt

I always missed the drama in the forums. Why did Regen make blasters butthurt again?

/Felgraf, Pinnacle. Fire/Ice blaster, just for theme.
//Fire Mastery and the Medicine power pool apparently made me surprisingly useful on occasion! I could take our group from a wipe to back up-and running, by Rise of the Phoneix-ing, and then rezzing the defender while I was invulnerable. That was always fun.


Well, Fel, for a few reasons, one was this overwhelming belief at the time on the forums, that being able to not fold like wet tissue paper in melee, and yet still have comparable damage output to a blaster (which, as a fire blaster, you know to be crap, since our damage was 90% single target...) made us freakishly overpowered.

The other, well, as far as regen was concerned, pre.. issue 4 or so they were entirely right. Shao, given her pre -ED spec could solo some archvillains, and effectively survive the attacks of others. Instant Healing, which was a toggle back then, with how much healing i had specced into it, guaranteed that any one mob that couldn't one shot me couldn't kill me either.

I would go into how Tanks posted videos of soloing AVs that I couldn't even have a hope of fighting, but apparently the blaster community didn't care, as they weren't scrappers.
 
2012-09-01 03:10:16 PM
DAMNIT! This is the one mmo I've repeatedly come back to over the last 6 years. I've always loved this game, and Billman was a fun character to play. I just made a new character the other day, too. Maaaaan. Guess id better focus on knocking out all that end game content I've been missing while I can.
 
2012-09-01 03:11:37 PM

cirby: I hope this is the death knell for the "free to play" and "freemium" games trend.

They're never free - they just move the expense from one not-very-large monthly fee to a whole bunch of small fees (for everything from new costumes to auction house access). It might, if you're careful, cost slightly less per month, but overall the expense + annoyance is worse.


Is it that difficult to keep your wallet closed?
I've been enjoying "freemium" games for a while now. Dropped a few hundred hours (and not a single dime) into Battlefield P4F, Tribes, Star Trek Online, Battleground Europe and Everquest.
 
2012-09-01 03:40:53 PM

AnEvilGuest: bingo the psych-o: NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.

If you can word it you can verb it.

I plan to memory that rule.


or quote Calvin and Hobbes: "Verbing weirds language"
 
2012-09-01 03:41:05 PM

ThatBillmanGuy: DAMNIT! This is the one mmo I've repeatedly come back to over the last 6 years. I've always loved this game, and Billman was a fun character to play. I just made a new character the other day, too. Maaaaan. Guess id better focus on knocking out all that end game content I've been missing while I can.


This basically.

I've left behind mmos and never looked back for various reasons, CoH was the one game I only game I ever came back to over and over again after I "quit".
 
2012-09-01 03:42:47 PM

AnEvilGuest: bingo the psych-o: NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.

If you can word it you can verb it.

I plan to memory that rule.


Seconded.
 
2012-09-01 03:57:01 PM

Lizard_SF: bingo the psych-o: NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.

If you can word it you can verb it.

Verbing weirds language.


Damn you.

madshakespeare.com
 
2012-09-01 04:00:19 PM

jagermech: NCsoft is making a big mistake.


Yep. The translation I get from that page reads a bit like this:

Our parent company decided it'd rather chase the statistical outlier of the MMO world (i.e. WoW) and anything that doesn't instantly get 12+ million subscribers is getting burnt even if it is currently making them a nice amount of money.

As we don't have 12+ million subscribers and are unlikely to ever get 12+ million subscribers this new focus by our parent means we're outta here, later folks.

If you're a company with an MMO and it's making a profit, be happy with what you've got.
 
2012-09-01 04:12:22 PM

BokChoy: The subscription model used from the late nineties has fallen by the wayside, along with the derelicts of many traditional MMOs that had big promise but ultimately failed.


In the boardroom of any company making an MMO their is a chant from the boardroom "Gotta beat WoW, Gotta beat WoW, no matter what we gotta beat WoW!" a month after release this changes to "Have we beat Wow? Have we beat WoW?" then becomes "Where's our 12 million subscribers and $2 billion?" this is usually followed by "We didn't beat WoW, kill it." it may well take a while for the board members to do this but it's almost always the reason why.

Fundamentally there is nothing really wrong with the subscription model for an MMO, however people are exceptionally unlikely to pay subscriptions to two games which are mechanically similar to each other. But different genres and mechanics? Potentially yes. Plenty of people have active subscriptions of say WoW and EVE:Online, two exceptionally different games.

That doesn't mean every MMO has to be subscription based nor does every MMO need to be F2P with cash shop... it depends what your MMO is bringing to the table; if it's a niche product then it may well do better with a sub than it would F2P... if it's (and I mean honestly not how it's marketed) just a reskin of something... popular... F2P is probably best.

And as TOR demonstrates... not every game should be an MMO (subscription or F2P) to begin with, sometimes you should just sell it for £50 on Steam and put out expansion packs every so often.
 
2012-09-01 04:16:59 PM
Perhaps I should log A. Machiavelli back in one last time.
 
2012-09-01 04:21:16 PM
Well looks like the next three months I'm going to try to Get Summoner Dustra to level 50.

/Sign the petition. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncsoft-keep-ncsoft-from-shutting-down- city-of-heroes
 
2012-09-01 04:51:03 PM
On a semi unrelated note , I wish Hellgate London got a second chance.
 
2012-09-01 05:09:46 PM
This sucks. I used to play this back in the day. Had a voodoo-themed Dark/Dark Defender named Papa Ghede, and an Energy/Elec Blaster named The Devolutionary (modeled after DEVO, of course).
 
2012-09-01 05:17:03 PM

Tenatra: dababler: NcSoft is making a large mistake here, they are alienating a large player base. Practivally every post on CoH's boards are "We understand MMO's are not eternal but I'll never play a NcSoft game again based on how horribly you handled this".

Idle threats by people that don't have any will to move on with their lives, people are doing the same thing to Blizzard. Every update gets the same response about how blizz dropped the ball/people saying they are never going to play another Blizz game YET those same people are still sticking around to complain every day and raise a storm after each patch is released even though they already quit playing for good and will never buy another Blizz prouct. You will likely see these same types of players running rampant on the NCsoft forums denouncing NCsoft for whatever they do but still stick around as nuisances.

How can NCsoft handle it better? The customers already know that MMOs don't go on forever. Do they need more time to part with their virtual heroes? Will there ever be a time when they could move on and live without their heroes? If the answer is no to that last question then they were going to get this same response whenever they shut it down.


If they needed to shut down CoH (which I don't think they did, since... well... it's the only one of their MMOs that actually has mainstream traction, and even if they didn't want to run it anymore, they probably could have licensed it all out to someone else), probably a better way to handle it would have been to announce it in advance and have the devs ramp up one last, big story event to really take it out with a bang. Not lay off the devs and tell the players, "We're closing shop at the end of the year, try not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

What I'm saying is that, if they're going to end the game, the least they could do is give it a proper ending.
 
2012-09-01 05:56:40 PM

NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.


It's an accepted synonym for something being phased out:

"...Most of the Bush tax cuts were due to sunset in 2010." 

English, being a living language, evolves over time.
 
2012-09-01 06:52:00 PM

Gergesa: I would propose an MMOFPS similar to Global Agenda that had shield and hydra operatives. A comic book based MMO of that sort would do better I think.


I would play the shiat out of a "50 States Initiative" mmo, especially if it leaned more towards the fps/twitch gameplay.

That said, I'm probably not going to be thrilled for an MMO until they make something based on Blame!.
 
2012-09-01 07:15:02 PM

HeartBurnKid: If they needed to shut down CoH (which I don't think they did, since... well... it's the only one of their MMOs that actually has mainstream traction, and even if they didn't want to run it anymore, they probably could have licensed it all out to someone else), probably a better way to handle it would have been to announce it in advance and have the devs ramp up one last, big story event to really take it out with a bang. Not lay off the devs and tell the players, "We're closing shop at the end of the year, try not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

What I'm saying is that, if they're going to end the game, the least they could do is give it a proper ending.



A big fat THIS.

If players are pissed off, it's because they care. People enjoy these games and have invested time, money and emotion into it. Make them feel like they'll be rewarded for having done so instead of disposing of something they love like it's trash.
 
2012-09-01 07:23:21 PM

Vaneshi: BokChoy: The subscription model used from the late nineties has fallen by the wayside, along with the derelicts of many traditional MMOs that had big promise but ultimately failed.

In the boardroom of any company making an MMO their is a chant from the boardroom "Gotta beat WoW, Gotta beat WoW, no matter what we gotta beat WoW!" a month after release this changes to "Have we beat Wow? Have we beat WoW?" then becomes "Where's our 12 million subscribers and $2 billion?" this is usually followed by "We didn't beat WoW, kill it." it may well take a while for the board members to do this but it's almost always the reason why.

Fundamentally there is nothing really wrong with the subscription model for an MMO, however people are exceptionally unlikely to pay subscriptions to two games which are mechanically similar to each other. But different genres and mechanics? Potentially yes. Plenty of people have active subscriptions of say WoW and EVE:Online, two exceptionally different games.

That doesn't mean every MMO has to be subscription based nor does every MMO need to be F2P with cash shop... it depends what your MMO is bringing to the table; if it's a niche product then it may well do better with a sub than it would F2P... if it's (and I mean honestly not how it's marketed) just a reskin of something... popular... F2P is probably best.

And as TOR demonstrates... not every game should be an MMO (subscription or F2P) to begin with, sometimes you should just sell it for £50 on Steam and put out expansion packs every so often.


The DCUO Model?

(Except for Free w/Expansion packs)
 
2012-09-01 07:40:09 PM
This is depressing. Had a level 50 fire blaster named Sunflash and was there the night City of Villains came online. Had a fire corrupter named Charmblaze. I was semi-famous on the server back in the day when CoV came out, killing Villains in the pvp areas. I'm going to miss that damn game. Some of my bast mmo fun came from that game.
 
2012-09-01 08:08:42 PM

TheZorker: The DCUO Model?


No, I meant not actually make your game an MMO of any description. Multiplayer? Maybe, possibly but not an MMO with all the back-end baggage that necessitates.

i.e. A 'regular' video game.
 
2012-09-01 08:10:32 PM

Codenamechaz: From what I understand, apparently Aion's transition to F2P bombed heavily, and that game had already been bleeding NCSoft. But because they're unwilling to give it up, Paragon is taking the fall.


I never got in to Aion, the controls seemed very clunky when I tried it in F2P so I was just irritated with it while playing. Lineage II took a hit going in to F2P, before the release of WoW it was a very tough game to get ahead in unless you bought adena (the currency) or were the guild leader in a guild that owned one of the few castles. After WoW released they started losing players and kept doing all sorts of crazy things to try and get people to stay. Making exp gain easier or in some cases multiplied, they started upping drop rates putting NPC buffers in town and everything else. Now that it is F2P they took it to a whole new level and made weapon/armor upgrades nearly free at the merchants and made direct lines to follow for quest routes, you didn't have to explore on your own to find where your quest needed to take you.

HeartBurnKid: What I'm saying is that, if they're going to end the game, the least they could do is give it a proper ending.


Are there any MMOs that have a proper ending? I've played my fair share and it comes to somewhat of an open ended end, then a little ways down the road there is an expansion and another, etc. I don't know, I've never really felt like an end needed to be there in MMOs since the games are usually gear based and those items are gained from mundane grinding or more recently by micro transactions.

I guess if they really wanted to get the gaming community and comic/super hero fanatics to eat them up more then they should have been developing a sandbox developer for the users to take the world further. (think Second Life) They wouldn't need Paragon to develop content anymore but at the same time they would probably have Marvel knocking on their door with a lawsuit again if the users started recreating published comic book stories.

"Both NCsoft and Paragon Studios are incredibly proud of the success of City of Heroes, but unfortunately, the continued support of the franchise no longer fits within our long term goals for the company," said Lincoln Davis, NCsoft West director of corporate communications.

Guild Wars is their baby and Guild Wars 2 will likely be the same. Hell, at least they had the sense to take down online cdkey purchasing for now while their beef up server infrastructure considering over a million copies were sold before launch. It saves them from the shiatstorm that Blizz faced during the first couple weeks of the D3 launch.
 
2012-09-01 08:40:30 PM
My favorite part of the game was costume creation. Sadly the missions and game were just too repetitive to hold my interest. I checked out CoV when it came out. Didn't hold my interest.

Nice little game, I enjoyed it more than many MMOs that have come through the pipe. They had some really great ideas, and perhaps had it come out when only EQ was competition it would have done a little better and evolved. Maybe.

/Vendor Buy Bank Guards
 
2012-09-01 09:03:50 PM
I thought CoH was one of the most innovative MMORPGs. I really liked character creation and the power system.
 
2012-09-01 09:12:50 PM
And as Harley did with Buell so NCSoft is doing with Paragon. Instead of just spinning them off to be independent entities that have to fend for themselves they're shutting them down. In both cases while money is mentioned, it's not really about money.
 
2012-09-01 09:21:16 PM
Well, that sucks. I've played off and on for years and while I'm taking a break right now, I had planned to get back into it soon.

I haz a sad now
 
2012-09-01 09:32:01 PM

WhyteRaven74: And as Harley did with Buell so NCSoft is doing with Paragon. Instead of just spinning them off to be independent entities that have to fend for themselves they're shutting them down. In both cases while money is mentioned, it's not really about money.


Why should they spin Paragon off as an independent? NCsoft and Cryptic Studios (the developer of CoH) shared a 50/50 split in IP ownership of CoH until NCsoft bought out the IP and obtained 100% ownership. On that note they opened up NCsoft NorCal which was later rebranded as Paragon Studios. Paragon did nothing but turn tricks for NCsoft and add more content to the world.
 
2012-09-01 10:11:07 PM

Tenatra: Why should they spin Paragon off as an independent?


Give them a chance to keep running CoH and keep working on it without having any financial stake it in it.
 
2012-09-01 10:11:20 PM
Here's a question, you bought the game, played it, now the developer is shutting the entire world down. Can you still play this as a none on-line game? If not, shouldn't you be able to return the game seeing as how the developer decided to break it for you?
 
2012-09-01 10:16:49 PM

hobbes0022: Here's a question, you bought the game, played it, now the developer is shutting the entire world down. Can you still play this as a none on-line game? If not, shouldn't you be able to return the game seeing as how the developer decided to break it for you?


You can't play it offline. There are people who want to start up private servers, but I doubt that will happen.
 
2012-09-01 10:27:15 PM

AnEvilGuest: bingo the psych-o: NetOwl: Sunset isnot a verb, article writer.

If you can word it you can verb it.

I plan to memory that rule.


The evolution of language is inevitable. Perfectly cromulent.
 
2012-09-01 11:10:42 PM

WhyteRaven74: Give them a chance to keep running CoH and keep working on it without having any financial stake it in it.


And give up the market share they have in a very unique title? Nexon would likely snatch them up in a heartbeat, they still have a high interest in F2P games. If I was NCsoft, I'd have ArenaNet mod the GW/2 engine for a CoH-esque world then develop the world (or use the assets from CoH) then all that is left is the story. NCsoft is doing good in the Action RPG niche even with all the noise from other seemingly similar titles that follow the same time frame, weapons, etc. I wonder how successful they would be in bringing CoH over into an Action platform.
 
2012-09-01 11:50:34 PM
This was my first MMO, and the best. I'll miss it.

I'll regret that I never got Defenestration Lass to 50. Was very close, and level capped other characters, but never her. 

Why have no other MMOs out since CoH actually picked up on some of the things that made it unique? Are they really not that wanted? Sidekicking, I'm looking at you...
 
2012-09-02 12:09:15 AM

I Like Bread: cirby: I hope this is the death knell for the "free to play" and "freemium" games trend.

They're never free - they just move the expense from one not-very-large monthly fee to a whole bunch of small fees (for everything from new costumes to auction house access). It might, if you're careful, cost slightly less per month, but overall the expense + annoyance is worse.

Is it that difficult to keep your wallet closed?
I've been enjoying "freemium" games for a while now. Dropped a few hundred hours (and not a single dime) into Battlefield P4F, Tribes, Star Trek Online, Battleground Europe and Everquest.


I've been back in STO for a while ago, and I've been surprised and pleased with how generous they are to Silver accounts.

/Felt like crying when I heard the news. So long, old friend.
 
2012-09-02 01:06:28 AM
Grim Gentleman, Blu-Blocker, the Great Phantasmo, et al. I will miss you guys.
 
2012-09-02 01:14:33 AM
members.iglou.com

Goodnight dummyman.
 
2012-09-02 01:17:56 AM
I'm surprised in a good way that this one made it to over 90 comments. City of Heroes has been my game of choice the past couple years, seeing everything drop on Friday was about as close to a kick to the balls as I've felt since I last lost a job.

Playing Guild Wars 2 showed just how dated even the newer graphics and mechanics were on City, but there was still a heck of a lot that they were still getting right. 'll miss the community, I'll miss the roleplay, I'll miss the character creation, and I'll miss jumping in like a crazy man in a spawn of a couple dozen bad guys. There isn't an MMO out there that's quite captured that feel.
 
2012-09-02 01:19:21 AM
Forget signing online petitions, that means nothing to these guys. They only understand one language: dollars.

Start a kickstarter to buy the code/rights and retain the developing team as part of an independent float.

Seriously, some guys just got $8.6m to develop a new console game through kickstarter, surely the fanbois of this game can pony up enough to get PWs attention.
 
2012-09-02 01:34:08 AM
It was a fun game for a while. But when I got three doorway missions from three separate contacts, for the exact same MOb to kill and had to repeat the mission 3x to close each of them out... Well, that's when I called it quits.

Best of luck to all the Paragon folks at all levels, from their social media folks to the management team.

/salute
 
2012-09-02 01:39:00 AM

I eat mop: Forget signing online petitions, that means nothing to these guys. They only understand one language: dollars.

Start a kickstarter to buy the code/rights and retain the developing team as part of an independent float.

Seriously, some guys just got $8.6m to develop a new console game through kickstarter, surely the fanbois of this game can pony up enough to get PWs attention.


Damn, what I would give for someone to actually get System Shock 3 in the works or a Freelancer sequel ...
 
2012-09-02 01:40:02 AM

Dimensio: [members.iglou.com image 737x548]

Goodnight dummyman.


Thank you for brightening my dreary day. I needed a good laugh after this news.
 
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