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(Daily Mail)   In India, there are dorms full of impoverished women serving as surrogates for rich westerners. For $30,000 a couple can send their sperm and egg to a clinic in India, and their child will develop inside a woman that they will never meet   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 102
    More: Interesting, surrogate mothers, Indians, Hyderabad, baby farmers, Oxfordshire  
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5363 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Sep 2012 at 5:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-09-01 06:41:37 AM
It's an honor for these women to be used as breeder cows.
 
2012-09-01 06:53:13 AM
I hope the parents are doing DNA tests on those kids, because it would be a lot easier to just buy or kidnap some white Eastern European baby and send it on over.
 
2012-09-01 06:59:33 AM

thorsmistress: There's a chapter in The Red Market that details one of these baby farms. After a certain date, the women are not allowed outside and must stay in the same small room all day-similar to cattle.


So, they're treated like gods? Sounds rough.
 
2012-09-01 07:00:41 AM

serial_crusher: I hope the parents are doing DNA tests on those kids, because it would be a lot easier to just buy or kidnap some white Eastern European baby and send it on over.


This.
 
2012-09-01 07:06:40 AM

serial_crusher: I hope the parents are doing DNA tests on those kids, because it would be a lot easier to just buy or kidnap some white Eastern European baby and send it on over.


Or, if the implantation doesn't work, use some other Caucasian couple's embryos.
 
2012-09-01 07:10:24 AM
82muchf00d.files.wordpress.com

Good luck, caucasians.
 
2012-09-01 07:23:16 AM

GAT_00: No, see, she's making money. Therefore it must be good somehow.


batcookie: I was disgusted by the story itself and the state of a society when poor women are forced to sell their bodies in yet ANOTHER way to survive


I think these quotes sum it up pretty well.
 
2012-09-01 07:39:30 AM

PreMortem: OK Daily Fail. Why do remember seeing this exact article a looong time ago yet it says published today?


Fresh content is hard.
 
2012-09-01 07:40:35 AM
I'm not sure I'd want someone malnourished having my baby since the risk of complications would increase.
 
2012-09-01 07:42:48 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: There's a major difference between pregnancy for one's self, which is human, and pregnancy where the mother is treated the same way the West treats a fetus: inhuman. Pregnancy for one's self is love or an accident, but it is not Cold Business.

This is Cold Business. Remember the Cylon (or Kromagg) Breeder Camps? Getting a paycheck does not erase how Life is turned into something base and worthless with this crap. Trying to pretend that this is the way to uplift these women's lives is the absolute wrong way to uplift them.


Accidental life is beautiful, even if it happens to poor people who will have very little choice to let the little bugger die, but if someone pays another to carry a foetus for them than that life is worthless? Right... Might as well start whining about how men selling their sperm is debasing life because it reduces the beauty of the creation of life to something that is bought and sold. but noooo, once someone has to walk around with it for 9 months it is somehow different.

Chariset: And after all, it's not like she's really a person. She's just the earthen vessel for our golden Caucasian genes.


Bull farking shiat, they went around bargain shopping for a womb and wound up in India for the best price/quality/legality ratio. Race has absolutely nothing to do with this. You might want to join ExperianScaresCthulhu in the crying about artificial insemination with sperm from a donor who has been reduced to "blue eyes, 6 foot 2 and a university education" on some form or another.
 
2012-09-01 07:44:36 AM

Nidiot: There are worse ways to make a living. Pretty sure a lot of Indian women are getting pregnant and giving birth multiple times during their lifetime without ever getting paid for it at all.


Yes, but in those cases they at least get the penis, which has got to be worth something.
 
2012-09-01 07:47:17 AM

Nick Nostril: Nidiot: There are worse ways to make a living. Pretty sure a lot of Indian women are getting pregnant and giving birth multiple times during their lifetime without ever getting paid for it at all.

Yes, but in those cases they at least get the penis, which has got to be worth something.


Heh, I clicked the funny button for you.
 
2012-09-01 07:56:29 AM
'sick' tag on vacation?
 
2012-09-01 08:03:20 AM
I personally don't see carrying a foetus around as being all that magical or special. I don't see reproduction at all as being magical or special. It has been done before, billions of times, since life began, and is therefore not magical or special. In fact, before birth control was available, it was almost inevitable. You don't even have to be intelligent to do it. Rats and mice do it. As a result if someone agrees to to carry another couple's foetus to term in return for money, I have no problem with it, good luck to them. I don't think any less of anyone for doing this and have no problem as long as there is no force or coercion of the women involved. They are doing a job and being paid for it, as simple as that. No harm no foul.
 
2012-09-01 08:10:55 AM
If it's not her baby, then what incentive does the surrogate have to push it out of her vag?

Childbirth is really difficult, and if the woman isn't legitimately motivated the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
 
2012-09-01 08:11:27 AM

batcookie: ExperianScaresCthulhu: mikewadestr: Wombs with double occupancy get double money. The best part about it is that the women may get $3000.00 out of the whole thing if even that. God I love the way India treats their women.

That treads too close to 'Africans sold Africans into slavery, therefore Africa is most at fault for the Triangular Trade." Look, man: If it's Westerners doing the buying, it's not India doing this to its women. India is taking advantage, but the West is the one creating a 'want' which should not exist in a world full of abandoned children.

Your point uses too much confrontational thinking (otherwise known as logic and reason rather than comfort through self-delusion) to go over well with human beings. Metacognition and admitting our own faults are not human beings' strengths.


I can appreciate your altruism and better-for-mankind values here. It's great when couples who want a child can raise one who would otherwise be unwanted.

But why must you expect this of another person? Some couples lack, outside of their genetic family, the capacity to generate love required for raising children. Are these couples western crybabies? They "shouldn't" do this? This opens up a new opportunity for them, and for the surrogate mother, who didn't have this option before. As long as no one is being forced, I'm cool with it.

But if you believe these Indian women are being "forced" into this arrangement due to India's economic and social system, then be mad at that...not the women who are finding their way out of it. Or the couples who simply want to love their own baby but otherwise couldn't.
 
2012-09-01 08:20:17 AM

serial_crusher: I hope the parents are doing DNA tests on those kids, because it would be a lot easier to just buy or kidnap some white Eastern European baby and send it on over.


You should see the packaging they use for shipping

t1.gstatic.com
 
2012-09-01 08:22:19 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: That treads too close to 'Africans sold Africans into slavery, therefore Africa is most at fault for the Triangular Trade." Look, man: If it's Westerners doing the buying, it's not India doing this to its women. India is taking advantage, but the West is the one creating a 'want' which should not exist in a world full of abandoned children.


No it doesn't. Slavery was evil, and involved taking people against their will. Volunteering for this is job that will set you up for life is different from that for many reasons.

Conditions in India are shiatty, therefore a few thousand dollars is enough to set you up for life. Hard to see how that is anyone's fault but India's.

// I guess you could blame Britain, but what's the statute of limitations of that?
 
2012-09-01 08:27:36 AM
www.occupyforanimals.org
 
2012-09-01 08:32:03 AM
what is the return policy
 
2012-09-01 08:37:58 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu:
That treads too close to 'Africans sold Africans into slavery, therefore Africa is most at fault for the Triangular Trade." Look, man: If it's Westerners doing the buying, it's not India doing this to its women. India is taking advantage, but the West is the one creating a 'want' which should not exist in a world full of abandoned children.


Children are just another commodity, like a purebred dog. I want the best product I can get, not some cut-rate, second-hand child. And if I can afford it, I should be able to buy anything I want. Free market and all that. It's why we are soooo awesome--because we buy shiat. All of it.
 
2012-09-01 08:58:09 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: That treads too close to 'Africans sold Africans into slavery, therefore Africa is most at fault for the Triangular Trade."


Would it be ethical for someone to pay someone in one's own country to be a surrogate mother? Assuming that the surrogate is properly compensated and not abused, and is acting with informed consent, this would be entirely legal in most Western countries. Then comes the issues of standards of care, and that they're likely outsourcing the job because of both costs (What's a "fair living wage" in India vs. Britain?) and legal requirements (If it's considered important to go through these bureaucratic channels in Britain, is it okay to simply bypass these channels?). But in both Britain and India, this is obviously an acceptable practice (surrogates in general), and so equating this to the slave trade, on a moral level, is absurd and simply emotionally provocative...or possibly just trollin'.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: [...]but the West is the one creating a 'want' which should not exist in a world full of abandoned children.


See, that's a totally different moral issue, and a much bigger picture one.
 
2012-09-01 09:02:01 AM

haywatchthis: what is the return policy


You need to call "support" and talk to "Steve."
 
2012-09-01 09:09:28 AM

Amphipath: But if you believe these Indian women are being "forced" into this arrangement due to India's economic and social system, then be mad at that...not the women who are finding their way out of it.


Nobody is mad at the women.
 
2012-09-01 09:17:06 AM

jaytkay: Nobody is mad at the women.


But lots of people seem to be against them having this option as a way to escape poverty.

I would rather someone was mad at me than someone try to ban the only chance I have to live a life where starvation wasn't always an imminent threat.
 
2012-09-01 09:26:52 AM
If you can't have kids, adopt. Seriously, there are lots out there with great need of a home and family.
 
2012-09-01 09:44:03 AM
just wait until they perfect cloning. They'll send a proper baby back to the parents who wanted their 'own' child without the headaches of pregnancy. Meanwhile, the baby factory will also grow clones of the same child. Those clones will be brought up to be stone cold killers, with absolutely nothing to live for and nothing to lose. In time, an angry army of their own genetic making will descend upon the parents' home countries and wipe them from the face of the earth. Thus will the poor nations' revenge be exacted upon the indulgent and decadent amoral nations of the first world west.

Oh, and the clones will have a shelf life like the replicants in Blade Runner.

/or WILL they?
 
2012-09-01 09:46:41 AM

BMFPitt: jaytkay: Nobody is mad at the women.

But lots of people seem to be against them having this option as a way to escape poverty.

I would rather someone was mad at me than someone try to ban the only chance I have to live a life where starvation wasn't always an imminent threat.


Come one, let people have their double standards. Some white college kid getting money selling a sizeable chunk of his DNA to a woman with an infertile husband for some beer money is normal but some poor women from India renting out her womb to make enough money to get an education, pay for housing or food is evil incarnate.
 
2012-09-01 10:06:54 AM

stevarooni: ExperianScaresCthulhu: That treads too close to 'Africans sold Africans into slavery, therefore Africa is most at fault for the Triangular Trade."

Would it be ethical for someone to pay someone in one's own country to be a surrogate mother? Assuming that the surrogate is properly compensated and not abused, and is acting with informed consent, this would be entirely legal in most Western countries. Then comes the issues of standards of care, and that they're likely outsourcing the job because of both costs (What's a "fair living wage" in India vs. Britain?) and legal requirements (If it's considered important to go through these bureaucratic channels in Britain, is it okay to simply bypass these channels?). But in both Britain and India, this is obviously an acceptable practice (surrogates in general), and so equating this to the slave trade, on a moral level, is absurd and simply emotionally provocative...or possibly just trollin'.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: [...]but the West is the one creating a 'want' which should not exist in a world full of abandoned children.

See, that's a totally different moral issue, and a much bigger picture one.


The whole issue is that it isn't legal in the UK. That's why they're going to India. Well, I think you can ask someone to carry your baby, but the role of "Surrogate" isn't recognized. The birth mother still can push a legal claim for the baby if they want, and there's nothing the other couple can do about it.
 
2012-09-01 10:14:58 AM
How much to cut out the middle man?
 
2012-09-01 10:27:33 AM
I'm okay with this in theory but the problem is that we don't know that the woman's conditions are good or that she is getting all the money or that she wasn't coerced into this. For better or worse, the women in the us who act as surrogates may feel forced into it as last-resort making money, but the parents can see her conditions and be reasonably sure that she is doing this of her own free will
 
2012-09-01 10:36:30 AM

Amphipath: But why must you expect this of another person?


Because someone needs to make the sacrifice, and it sure as hell isn't going to be the liberals who demand it.

/or the "intellectuals" who conned the world into believing the sacrifice is necessary
 
2012-09-01 10:56:12 AM

oldsbone: The whole issue is that it isn't legal in the UK. That's why they're going to India. Well, I think you can ask someone to carry your baby, but the role of "Surrogate" isn't recognized. The birth mother still can push a legal claim for the baby if they want, and there's nothing the other couple can do about it.


See? Just some slight legal differences between the two countries. :D Also: Geographical rift greatly inconveniencing the birth mother's claim, should she make one.
 
2012-09-01 11:12:36 AM
they're poor>? why don't they go on welfare
 
2012-09-01 11:15:56 AM
I didn't realize it was possible to care less about how other people breed, until I read this article.
 
2012-09-01 11:18:53 AM
why pay new baby prices when you can buy used, for just $.75 a day (the price of a cup of coffee) you could buy a malnuresed african baby with flies buzzing around its head. makes a great gift too.
 
2012-09-01 11:32:36 AM
So, what, after the birth they Fed-Ex the kid back to the UK?
 
2012-09-01 11:49:15 AM
Thanks, all. That was way better than another pit bull thread.
 
2012-09-01 12:06:35 PM
Axlotl tanks anyone?
 
2012-09-01 01:37:52 PM
You know who else wanted to breed a super-race by using slave women as surrogate wombs?

Well, let's not be unfair to the insane dictators of the world. I'm not sure Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Idi Amin wanted this.

This is the stuff of dystopian SF futures. Meanwhile, the "Christians" and Roman Catholics are worrying about gay marriages.

But using poor non-white women as surrogate breeding stock for rich white people's precious snowflakes is only for the money! There's no sex or fun for any one!

There's probably better regulations governing the creation of cloned lifestock and dogs.
 
2012-09-01 01:43:44 PM
Actually, and I say this as an atheist, I think maybe the world's religions might be on to something here. This sort of thing could be raising some teensy-weensy ethical, moral, political, social, cultural, genetic and human rights questions.

Not about gay marriages. Who gives a flying fig about gay marriages? They're no better than straight marriages and they can't be worse.

But using people as "breeders", even with their informed consent, raises questions of health, safety, the rights of the many parties involved, and the whole nature of humanity and whether human is wise and good enough to fark with natural reproduction.

Maybe we could revisit the matter in a few million years when women are no longer regarded as machines for popping out babies, and babies are not considered property to be used and abused as the father (or both parents) wish.
 
2012-09-01 02:08:06 PM
The similarities between surrogate human lifestock-mongering and slavery comes to mind:

It's just business ...
FTA: Mrs Orchard, a middle-class Oxfordshire housewife, admitted the £20,000 deal sounded 'cold and clinical' but insisted: 'This is a business transaction.'

And money makes everything right ...

FTA: Describing the surrogate mother as 'just a vessel', the 34-year-old former estate agent added: 'There is no altruism involved on the surrogate's part: she is being paid to have our baby'.

Just like syphillitic, drunken nurses in the 1700s .... No wonder the aristocracy were a bunch of amoral loonies!
The couple, who are as English as their bucolic-sounding name, know only the sparest of details about the woman who is pregnant with their baby.

Well, if it's white, all right!
FTA: Her function is to sustain the foetus we have created. Her blood is pumping around its body and she is feeding it through her placenta, but she is just a vessel. The baby she gives birth to on our behalf will carry none of her genes and bear no physical resemblance to her.

'He or she will have white skin and, in all probability, red hair like my husband.

It's not like we are adopting a needy black child!

FTA: She's just a slave after all. It's not like she is a real person.
'Of course I want her to do her best to have a successful pregnancy, and I'll be very upset - quite devastated, in fact - if it doesn't go full-term. But we do not want to get emotionally involved with our surrogate's story. I'm not interested in her background. I don't want to be part of her life.

We're not invested in her, just in the fruit of her loins.

English to Plain English Translation: We're "conservatives". We don't give a flying fark because she is Not a Member of Our Tribe. It's OK to exploit people if they are different.
FTA: She speaks a different language. She lives in a world culturally, economically and socially so remote from ours that the distance between us is unbridgeable.

I hear they are doing a remake of The Munsters with more realistic monsters.

We didn't really need to buy a second child, but it seemed a whole lot less messy and time-consuming that way.
FTA: Octavia, 34, who had a comfortable middle-class upbringing in Oxfordshire, and Dominic, 35, a successful financial management consultant, have been married for six years and have a three-year-old son, Orlando, who was conceived naturally.

It's all about pleasing your man.
FTA: I felt not only bereft, but completely worthless,' she recalls. 'I felt I'd let Dominic down. I couldn't save our baby, I'd failed as a woman. I'm usually buoyant and positive, but I reached a very low ebb.'

It was cheap and legal, what could go wrong? What you want with reproduction is the lowest bidder
FTA: They chose a clinic in Hyderabad because it was cheaper than rival organisations, and because it also offered a lawyer to negotiate the convoluted bureaucracy involved in securing the baby's British passport.

Slavery is a quid pro quo. We feed them, clothe them, give them a space in the attic or a shack out back, let them worship our God to save their worthless black immortal souls ... a fair trade is no robbery!

Many believe such arrangements are exploitative, and question whether it is morally right to use uneducated, impoverished women to fulfil wealthy couples' dreams of parenthood. But Octavia insists the arrangement is mutually beneficial. For her, the quid pro quo is the financial recompense - huge by the standards of impoverished Indians -_ the surrogate will have received.

And so it goes, and so it goes.

People have not changed, not since 1860, not since 1760, not since 60 B.C. They're still the same greedy, selfish, arrogant, predator, self-deceiving, lying, hypocritic, predatory scavengers of human misery that they always were. As yet, the human portion of humanity is still a very small percentage. Most well-off humans are stuck at level two or three of six on the moral development scale, just as others are stuck at level one or two of the economic development scale. And thus there is exploitation of the latter by the former on a scale scarcely to be credited.

We don't have pollution or slaves any more--it's all outsourced to China and India!
 
2012-09-01 02:25:16 PM
I so hope that this woman is made to regret giving this interview, for whatever reasons.
Why do people do this? Is she seeking validation?
 
2012-09-01 05:32:09 PM
"This baby smells like curry!"
 
2012-09-01 05:32:10 PM
"This whole thing feels a little like an out-of-body experience."

Indeed.
 
2012-09-01 06:06:01 PM
but won't the babies be extra hairy
 
2012-09-01 07:56:20 PM
What I want to know is, what happens if the surrogate becomes ill while carrying the fetus? Is she allowed to be treated if the treatment is necessary to save her life but could potentially hurt the baby? Who makes that decision?
 
2012-09-01 08:13:26 PM
With 6.8 billion people and counting perhaps those who can not have children shouldn't.
They could adopt an Indian girl and give her a shot at a life without having to pimp out her womb to make a living, or adopt one of the thousands of orphans in their own country.
 
2012-09-01 10:23:58 PM
Children often grow up craving the foods their mother ate while she was pregnant. I hope their child demands meatless curry for every meal and throws chutney at every opportunity.
 
2012-09-01 10:37:12 PM
"The Handmaid's Tale" wasn't meant to be a friggin' manual...
 
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