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(Yahoo)   US bombs Munich   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 76
    More: Scary, Munich, World War II, Charles Xavier, Army Air Corps, home runs  
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13806 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Aug 2012 at 9:02 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-30 10:45:48 AM

Arkanaut: IMO though, the atomic bomb saved millions of people that would have been killed or starved if there was an Allied invasion of Japan. And imagine if the Soviets took over Hokkaido and northern Honshu? Fuhgeddaboutit.


As an American of German descent living in Japan, married to a Japanese woman, I am absolutely shocked how the Japanese disregard what happened to Germany at the end of WWII. The nation was split into three parts, and the easternmost third was forever lost. On the occasions that WWII and its aftermath comes up, I have repeatedly told her how lucky she is that her own people of Hokkaido were not exiled forever from their homeland, or forced to work in concentration camps until their survivors were repatriated into southern Japan, and any Japanese living in northern Honshu would be under Soviet rule, being target practice whenever the Soviets wished for the next 45 years.

My ancestors from both sides of my family came from the German Baltic state of East Prussia, near Koenigsberg. When I was growing up, my grandmother would tell stories of her own grandfather and his life before he emigrated to Illinois in the 1890s. It left a very deep impression on me. Eastern Prussia(the true East Germany)had a unique culture, much as Scotland is different from England. It would be as if all of Scotland was wiped out and resettled by the Russians, all of their cemeteries bulldozed and all of their culture wiped out, and all of their population forced to resettle into England. Everything that was uniquely Scottish for the last 1000 years would be lost forever, and their people and accomplishments would be looked on as an embarassing reminder of the unpleasant past. The homeland of my ancestors I will always refer to as Occupied Koenigsberg, and not the temporary name that the current occupiers have placed upon it.

I have met many people with European ancestry, and they have been proud of the heritage and history not only of their nation, but of the region that they came from. One of my best friends has a family that comes from the Catalonian region of Spain, and he is fiercely proud of his Catalonian heritage. I am envious that his heritage survived and mine didn't. Every time that Spain is brought up, why don't people constantly make Franco jokes over and over, and any time any Spain makes any accomplishments, why don't people immediately bring up Spain's fascist history?

As I grow older, I find this sort of behavior and people who constantly gleefully talk about this every time Germany or Japan is brought up to be really disgustingly disregarding of human life and culture and much closer to the spirit of fascism for doing so.

/CSB
 
2012-08-30 10:46:14 AM
I remember seeing something on a documentary that bomb disposal crews all over Europe will have work for the next 1000 years because of all the ordanence buried around from WW1 and 2. Thats some job security there.
 
2012-08-30 10:53:53 AM

Arkanaut: devildog123: farkityfarker: But I thought that America only targets military targets and not civilians.

Have I been lied to?

Back in the 40's, hitting the CITY you were aiming at was considered precision bombing. Plus, in a total war scenario, civilians are most likely working towards the war effort, thus making them legitimate targets.

American bombers did have "precision" bombsights in WWII, but that was relative -- and it required the bomber to fly level for something like 30 seconds in order to calibrate it, which is rather difficult when you're getting shot at. So they did try to target specific military or industrial facilities and avoid civilian targets, until nearly the end of the war. The British were less squeamish about just firebombing German cities outright, since the Germans did the same to them.


You do not know what the fark you're talking about regarding the bomb sites or targeting priorities or teh firebombing of British cities.
Citations or GTFO and stop pulling gobs of nonsense out of your butthole.
 
2012-08-30 10:54:22 AM

opiumpoopy: 550 lb? Meh.

Google "SS Richard Montgomery" to see the 10,000,000 lb bomb that nobody's dared touch for 68 years...

/ no, really


Um...1500 tons does not equal 10 MILLION pounds
 
2012-08-30 11:02:09 AM

canyoneer: while the Northern Germans I spoke with blamed it all on the Austrians and Bavarians.



That's pretty farking rich.
 
mhd
2012-08-30 11:04:59 AM

canyoneer: Interestingly, these older Bavarians blamed it all on the "Fishhead" northerners and Prussians, while the Northern Germans I spoke with blamed it all on the Austrians and Bavarians. Tribalism reigns supreme everywhere and always.


And once again, those dirty Swabians get away scot-free!

/JK. Love me some Knoepfle.
 
2012-08-30 11:13:53 AM

BigNumber12: That's pretty farking rich.


Well, several of the top big shot Nazis were Austrians, including old Schickelgruber himself.
 
2012-08-30 11:15:20 AM
The principal of Curtis LeMay style strategic bombing wasn't really some extension of Shermin-ism, it was murder. We would immolate people we thought our enemies might be fond of. Certainly, the Japanese army was everywhere but Japan, and we ruled the seas at the time, so they (those in Japan) had no way to get material from Japan to, say, Manchuria. The bomb, the bomb, the bomb. More people were 'conventionally' incinerated in the two firebomb attacks on Tokyo, because there were more people there to kill.
 
2012-08-30 11:23:56 AM
principle, its early
 
mhd
2012-08-30 11:36:08 AM

canyoneer: Well, several of the top big shot Nazis were Austrians, including old Schickelgruber himself.


Not a lot. Quite a few Bavarians, as the NSDAP was founded here, and quite a few old Prussian families, the core demographic of military officers at the time. Shifting blame would be quite ridiculous. Haven't heard anyone do that, most of the resentiments against Prussia here in the south are for the Austro-Prussian war in 1866, not WW II.

/Still a bit confused why you would cover a bomb with straw before you set it off. I blame our deputy mayor, Herr Littlepig.
 
2012-08-30 11:39:46 AM
"But this will certainly not be the last blast associated with a bomb from the past."

/ It sure blew up fast...
/ Did anyone require a cast?...
/ My boat has a mast
/uhhhhhhhhh ach screw it (drinks for 9 seconds)

Glad to see journalists having fun.
 
2012-08-30 11:43:20 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: You do not know what the fark you're talking about regarding the bomb sites or targeting priorities or teh firebombing of British cities.
Citations or GTFO and stop pulling gobs of nonsense out of your butthole.


O_o Really?

Firebombing of Coventry

"The British used the opportunity given them by the attack on Coventry to try a new tactic against Germany, which was carried out on 16 December 1940 as part of Operation Abigail Rachel against Mannheim.[29] The British had been waiting for the opportunity to experiment with an incendiary-intensive raid, considering it a kind of retaliation for the German raid on Coventry.[29] This was the start of a British drift away from precision attacks on military targets and towards area bombing attacks on whole cities."


BTW, isn't 550 lb a RAF bomb size?
 
2012-08-30 11:44:13 AM
*sigh* lets try that again with a working link

Firebombing of Coventry
 
2012-08-30 11:58:02 AM

mhd: Not a lot. Quite a few Bavarians, as the NSDAP was founded here, and quite a few old Prussian families, the core demographic of military officers at the time. Shifting blame would be quite ridiculous. Haven't heard anyone do that, most of the resentiments against Prussia here in the south are for the Austro-Prussian war in 1866, not WW II.


I'm just reporting what I heard. From what I can gather, the majority of Germans and Austrians from any and all regions were quite enthusiastic about the whole thing, at least initially and before things started going badly. Yes: Shifting blame is ridiculous. But it was a long time ago, and the newer generations of Germans are blameless, IMO. I don't believe in collective, perpetual guilt. Just as I cannot be blamed for slavery or the massacre Native Americans, you cannot be blamed for the sins of your grandfathers. If others still hold young Germans responsible, it is they who are perpetuating hatred.
 
2012-08-30 12:13:48 PM
cherryhillpublishing.com

Approves
 
mhd
2012-08-30 12:21:32 PM

canyoneer: I'm just reporting what I heard. From what I can gather, the majority of Germans and Austrians from any and all regions were quite enthusiastic about the whole thing, at least initially and before things started going badly. Yes: Shifting blame is ridiculous.


I hail from the city where the second ever NSDAP department was established and photographs of Hitler holding speeches at the city center are really creepy, considering that it still looks like this today and thus is eerily familiar. I definitely can't use the "we were all on holiday" line here, there was quite a lot of enthusiasm about the whole NS BS. Which is why I can't quite imagine someone ever trying to deny that. I thought I heard all the racist, stupid, back-asswards comments from old Bavarians possible, but that one was new to me. It's definitely not that common, can't say anything about their northern equivalents...

/Definitely the case with Austrians, of course. They all were forcefully annexed and conscripted.
 
2012-08-30 12:52:51 PM

mhd: I hail from the city where the second ever NSDAP department was established and photographs of Hitler holding speeches at the city center are really creepy, considering that it still looks like this today and thus is eerily familiar.


Is that Nuremberg? I'm not super-knowledgable about the grainy details of the history of the NSDAP. I studied in Regensburg for a year, and I remember seeing an exhibition of photos from the war years. The picture of Hitler giving a speech in front of the old Rathaus on Kohlenmarkt freaked me out in the same way. Regensburg is so beautiful and I really love that town, so to see him in that setting gave me an uncomfortable feeling.
 
2012-08-30 12:55:57 PM

HotIgneous Intruder:

You do not know what the fark you're talking about regarding the bomb sites or targeting priorities or teh firebombing of British cities.
Citations or GTFO and stop pulling gobs of nonsense out of your butthole.


I told you not to mention the war!
 
mhd
2012-08-30 01:04:32 PM

canyoneer: Is that Nuremberg?


A small town called Rosenheim, not really well known (ok, speaking of the 3rd Reich, Göring was born there while his mom was on a spa retreat). As opposed to Nuremberg or Munich, that episode of our history ain't that well known anymore, which is why seeing those pictures really freaked me out back then.
 
2012-08-30 01:12:26 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: Arkanaut: devildog123: farkityfarker: But I thought that America only targets military targets and not civilians.

Have I been lied to?

Back in the 40's, hitting the CITY you were aiming at was considered precision bombing. Plus, in a total war scenario, civilians are most likely working towards the war effort, thus making them legitimate targets.

American bombers did have "precision" bombsights in WWII, but that was relative -- and it required the bomber to fly level for something like 30 seconds in order to calibrate it, which is rather difficult when you're getting shot at. So they did try to target specific military or industrial facilities and avoid civilian targets, until nearly the end of the war. The British were less squeamish about just firebombing German cities outright, since the Germans did the same to them.

You do not know what the fark you're talking about regarding the bomb sites or targeting priorities or teh firebombing of British cities.
Citations or GTFO and stop pulling gobs of nonsense out of your butthole.


I provided a cite for the Norden bombsight -- are you looking for something regarding the British bombing strategy or the fact that they were themselves targeted for firebombing? In any case, here are sources:

Area bombing directive: "The directive issued on 14 February (S.46368/111. D.C.A.S) listed the primary industrial areas that were within 350 miles from RAF Mildenhall; the distance being a little over the maximum range of the GEE radio navigation aid (referred to in the directive as "T.R. 1335"). The directive specifically mentions the Ruhr and that Essen, in the centre of the conurbation was to be given the dubious honour as the first target that was to be bombed (the first attack on Essen under this directive was carried out on the night of 8/9 March).[1] The objective of the directive was "To focus attacks on the morale of the enemy civil population and in particular the industrial workers. In the case of Berlin harassing attacks to maintain fear of raids and to impose A. R. P. measures".[1][5]

"...21 March: Attack the Ruhr using concentrated incendiary attacks ("such as the enemy had made on use to good effect").[12] It was in part to be experimental with different sizes of incendiary devices to be used to asses their effectiveness."

Coventry Blitz: "The first wave of follow-up bombers dropped high explosive bombs, knocking out the utilities (the water supply, electricity network and gas mains) and cratering the roads, making it difficult for the fire engines to reach fires started by the follow-up waves of bombers. The follow-up waves dropped a combination of high explosive and incendiary bombs. There were two types of incendiary bomb: those made of magnesium and those made of petroleum. The high explosive bombs and the larger air-mines were not only designed to hamper the Coventry fire brigade, they were also intended to damage roofs, making it easier for the incendiary bombs to fall into buildings and ignite them."

Granted, most of my general impressions regarding the aerial campaign over Europe came from the History Channel, so I may very well have been duped.
 
2012-08-30 01:16:02 PM

mhd: A small town called Rosenheim, not really well known (ok, speaking of the 3rd Reich, Göring was born there while his mom was on a spa retreat). As opposed to Nuremberg or Munich, that episode of our history ain't that well known anymore, which is why seeing those pictures really freaked me out back then.


A friend of mine was born and raised in Rosenheim. She studied biology for a year at CU Boulder and lived with us when she was in Colorado. My wife visited her there some years ago. She's in Wuppertal now. I've never been, but Rosenheim is reputed to be very beautiful, too.
 
2012-08-30 02:17:55 PM
The homeland of my ancestors I will always refer to as Occupied Koenigsberg, and not the temporary name that the current occupiers have placed upon it.

I have met many people with European ancestry, and they have been proud of the heritage and history not only of their nation, but of the region that they came from. One of my best friends has a family that comes from the Catalonian region of Spain, and he is fiercely proud of his Catalonian heritage. I am envious that his heritage survived and mine didn't.


If what some dead people did to your ancestors bothers you so much, go there and ask the blameless folk living there today to give it back. You'l get the apology you have coming to you, you'll make peace with the way things are today and then everyone can get on with their lives instead of perpetuating yet another meaningless feud over this pretty rock or that nice building that just turns into people fighting for the sake of fighting.

The whole notion of "heritage" is ridiculous anyway. What pride can a sensible person take in the achievements of people they have absolutely nothing in common with, other than the fact that they happened to once sit on the same chunk of dirt? If they had a great Huguenot parade through the city streets tomorrow and declared September to be International Canada is Awesome month, my status as an individual would not improve one bit. Likewise if the Queen decided that helping us was all a joke, dug up our ancestors' bones and peed on them while signing over their gravesites to Portugal, I can't say I'd lose much sleep over it.
 
2012-08-30 02:36:12 PM

wildcardjack: A Sergeant in motion outranks a Lieutenant who doesn't know what's going on.

An ordnance technician at a dead run outranks everybody.


LOL

Buddy of mine is an ordnance tech. Not the personality you really want around explosives, but I guess he's good at it, he's still got all his body parts after 3 rotations in the sand box.
 
2012-08-30 02:54:47 PM
They made some pretty explodey bombs didn't they?

I'm ready for another world war.
 
2012-08-30 05:34:42 PM

canyoneer: But she had nothing but praise and admiration for the American occupation thereafter. They were all amazed at how the Americans, rather than punishing the people for the war, instead sent care packages and food and clothing, especially for the children - care packages sent by ordinary American citizens in addition to the official aid and supplies. I think they expected something quite different.


When I speak with people about my perception of the decline of American values (especially under the administration of Bush the Lesser), this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. There was a time when America had compassion and empathy even for its enemies when all was said and done. I recall a Ted Rall cartoon during that period, depicting two WWII soldiers entering a room in enemy territory, and there's a lot of vicious-looking equipment lying around, and blood spatters on the walls. One soldier says "my god...they used this room for torture..." In the second panel, two modern soldiers enter a room in Iraq, and one says something to the effect of "this will make a great place for 'enhanced interrogation'".

Apropos of nothing, I suppose, and a threadjack, but beer o'clock came early today.
 
2012-08-30 07:50:04 PM
canyoneer: mhd: A small town called Rosenheim, not really well known (ok, speaking of the 3rd Reich, Göring was born there while his mom was on a spa retreat). As opposed to Nuremberg or Munich, that episode of our history ain't that well known anymore, which is why seeing those pictures really freaked me out back then.

A friend of mine was born and raised in Rosenheim. She studied biology for a year at CU Boulder and lived with us when she was in Colorado. My wife visited her there some years ago. She's in Wuppertal now. I've never been, but Rosenheim is reputed to be very beautiful, too.

Ah, Rosenheim. I've bought a couple of cars there. Say Hi to Herr Bögl from me
 
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