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(Abc.net.au)   Billionaire: "If you're jealous of those with more money, don't just sit there and complain; do something to make more money yourself - spend less time drinking, or smoking and socialising, and more time working"   (abc.net.au) divider line 440
    More: Obvious, smoking  
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9352 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Aug 2012 at 11:04 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-30 07:54:15 AM  
...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.
 
2012-08-30 07:58:53 AM  
The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll the poor.
 
2012-08-30 07:58:56 AM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


Just because you wasted your multimillion dollar inheritance doesn't make it her fault.
 
2012-08-30 08:02:39 AM  
I want to use my multi-million dollar inheritance to become a corporate raider. You know shutting down lazy, socializing and drinking American factories and opening up new ones in hardworking China!
 
2012-08-30 08:07:29 AM  
i.imgur.com

Finally, the answer to Babwa Wawa's eternal question: "What I wouldn't do for a billion dollars."
 
2012-08-30 08:21:37 AM  
At some point this quote from Boswell's Life of Johnson will be pertinent to something said in this thread

"You meet a man begging; you charge him with idleness; he says, 'I am willing to labour. Will you give me work?' -- 'I cannot.' -- 'Why, then you have no right to charge me with idleness.' "
 
2012-08-30 08:35:20 AM  
Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance

Good-bye.
 
2012-08-30 08:35:39 AM  
Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.
 
2012-08-30 08:42:45 AM  
Billionaires most likely work less then scientists, engineers, teachers, people who contribute stuff.
 
2012-08-30 08:47:42 AM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


Doesn't mean the advice is bad.

It's kind of like a natural born Olympic level athlete telling the rest of us to exercise more. Sure, we'll never swim like Michael Phelps or run like Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean that regular exercise won't make us more healthy.

It's true that as a group, the poor are much more likely to smoke, for example. In my state, you're looking at a minimum of $7 a pack. If you smoke a pack a day, that's $49 a week, or $208 a month. That's a car payment right there, going up in smoke. Over a year, that's nearly $2,500.

Also, the poor and uneducated tend to buy more lottery tickets:

bp0.blogger.com

This is a fools game, as it has been rightly pointed out that the lottery in all its forms is a "tax on people who are bad at math". On average, you'll never win back enough to make up for what you spend, not by a long shot. But the poor buy the damn things in droves. Whenever I see someone buying lottery tickets at a convenience store, it's not the person who just drove up in a BMW. It's the person who drove up in rusted out 1995 Ford Escort, or more likely, walked. 

Those are just a couple examples of some of the bad financial decisions that tend to keep the long-term poor in economic distress. They don't really necessarily know any better, though: People tend to stay in their socio-economic class. The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it. The flip side of that is that the long-term poor, when given a windfall like the occasional lottery winner, almost invariably find themselves back in poverty after a while because of poor financial decision making. 

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.
 
2012-08-30 08:52:03 AM  
She sounds like a pleasant person.

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


...and THIS^
 
2012-08-30 08:55:23 AM  

dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it


There's no reason to believe your average billionaire who was born into it has any more financial sense than anyone else. They're just too big to fail. Of course you have your Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates, etc who built what they have but they're not the norm.

/happy being a multi-thousandaire
//never intentionally screwed over anyone for it
 
2012-08-30 09:01:15 AM  
"And you are, Gina?" "Gina."
 
2012-08-30 09:01:52 AM  
Really? It's that easy?! Well then, I'll get right to it!
 
2012-08-30 09:16:54 AM  

Mugato: dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it

There's no reason to believe your average billionaire who was born into it has any more financial sense than anyone else.


If you are born into wealth, it's very likely that you learned your money handling skills from your parents. Those skills might not be the kind necessary to *MAKE* a fortune, but they would at least be the kind that allow you to *RETAIN* one.

The same goes for the long-term poor, in that they generally learn their financial skills from their parents.

For good or ill, we generally learn most of our money handling skills from our parents, and to a lesser extent, our peers.

That's not to say you are predestined by accident of birth: My brother-in-law was born of modest means, but by dint of hard work *AND* sacrificing immediate gratification and unnecessary frills, he's actually doing quite well for himself and his family, certainly better than I and his sister (the distaffbopper).
 
2012-08-30 09:18:53 AM  
Thanks for the advice, JOB CREATOR!
 
2012-08-30 10:08:28 AM  

dittybopper: Mugato: dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it

There's no reason to believe your average billionaire who was born into it has any more financial sense than anyone else.

If you are born into wealth, it's very likely that you learned your money handling skills from your parents. Those skills might not be the kind necessary to *MAKE* a fortune, but they would at least be the kind that allow you to *RETAIN* one.

The same goes for the long-term poor, in that they generally learn their financial skills from their parents.

For good or ill, we generally learn most of our money handling skills from our parents, and to a lesser extent, our peers.

That's not to say you are predestined by accident of birth: My brother-in-law was born of modest means, but by dint of hard work *AND* sacrificing immediate gratification and unnecessary frills, he's actually doing quite well for himself and his family, certainly better than I and his sister (the distaffbopper).


Sure. But it's a little galling for someone who inherited millions of dollars to sit and lecture people about hard work.
 
2012-08-30 10:15:48 AM  

qorkfiend:
Sure. But it's a little galling for someone who inherited millions of dollars to sit and lecture people about hard work.


I don't mind if they do it from the privacy of their own prison cell.
 
2012-08-30 10:19:30 AM  
Mining?  I would have guessed she was a cheesecake mogul.  Unless she owns the Big Rock Candy Mountain, then it would make perfect sense.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 10:31:44 AM  
That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 10:34:24 AM  

GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.


Generally the people who work hardest are the poorest. You get rich by acquiring the right to the product of other people's wealth.
 
2012-08-30 10:37:22 AM  
"Are you employed sir?"

deathandtaxesmag.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com
 
2012-08-30 10:38:21 AM  
img191.imageshack.us

"You.. can be a millionaire billionaire.. and never pay taxes! You can be a millionaire billionaire.. and never pay taxes!

You say.. "Steve.. how can I be a millionaire billionaire.. and never pay taxes?" First.. get a million dollars.

Now.. you say, "Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, 'You.. have never paid taxes'?"

Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language: "I forgot!"
 
2012-08-30 10:38:32 AM  

vudukungfu: The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll the poor.


Basically this. If you see people flaunting it, you can rest assured that they are Grade A douchebags.

And if you need to be reminded what "flaunting it" looks like, please direct your attention to Rich Kids of Instagram. (pops)
 
2012-08-30 10:41:50 AM  
When a millionaire/billionaire suggests that you need to be willing to 'work hard' in order to attain their level of wealth, what they really mean to say is 'have business ambition that is unwavering and single-minded, and sometimes ruthless.' Because that's what it seems to take for a person not born in wealth to gain a higher class in American society. Otherwise, any landscaper, nurse, janitor worker, strawberry picker would be a millionaire from all their hard work.
 
2012-08-30 11:06:48 AM  
As usually step 1 of the plan is to be born into a rich-as-fark family. Bootstraps work better when they're made of woven gold and platinum.
 
2012-08-30 11:06:54 AM  
advice you just can't buy
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 11:06:57 AM  

dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...


It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.
 
2012-08-30 11:07:30 AM  
Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

What is this? I don't even...
 
2012-08-30 11:07:35 AM  
How many of you are at work right now?
That helps explain it.
 
2012-08-30 11:07:44 AM  
Also I'd like to congratulate Fark on hiring the mentally handicapped to set the post tags for the past few days.
 
2012-08-30 11:07:49 AM  
The poor people I know have 2 or 3 jobs.

Pick any laborer off of the street and they know more about hard work than this woman.
 
2012-08-30 11:08:58 AM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


I knew it was going to be something like that without even reading the article.
 
2012-08-30 11:10:05 AM  
imgc.allpostersimages.com

If I was rich I'd go so drunk I would want to fark Liza Minelli.
 
2012-08-30 11:11:44 AM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


Do you know how many rich people's kids don't do jack shiat? Just sit around farking off and spending their parent's cheddar?

Of course, this lady started with significant advantages in life, but she didn't just squander them. So she gets a little credit for that.
 
2012-08-30 11:12:18 AM  

Cythraul: When a millionaire/billionaire suggests that you need to be willing to 'work hard' in order to attain their level of wealth, what they really mean to say is 'have business ambition that is unwavering and single-minded, and sometimes ruthless.' Because that's what it seems to take for a person not born in wealth to gain a higher class in American society. Otherwise, any landscaper, nurse, janitor worker, strawberry picker would be a millionaire from all their hard work.


This, absolutely this. Most wealthy people I know started with nothing, but clawed their way up with somewhat ruthless ambition, and now are very wealthy indeed. Have another buddy who started 15 years ago as help desk support and worked his way up to being considered for VP for some technology related stuff at the Fortune 500 he started at. It's all about who you know, having good judgement on when its time to shift jobs, and be willing to take a few risks here and there.
 
2012-08-30 11:12:54 AM  

dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.


All of this is true, but it doesn't excuse the ultra-rich from buying political influence, for the express purpose of making sure they receive more money-making opportunities and pay less taxes, all at the expense of the poor and middle class. Which is really why everyone is pissed off at rich people; not because we're "jealous".
 
2012-08-30 11:13:33 AM  
Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.
 
2012-08-30 11:13:41 AM  
Like Ann Romney talking about how hard her and Mitt had it in the early days when they could only borrow tens of thousands of dollars from their parents... Life is so hard and they made it all on their own.
 
2012-08-30 11:15:58 AM  
The problem here is that CEOs that make over 100x the average salary of their company actually think they are working over 100x as hard as the average worker.
 
2012-08-30 11:16:06 AM  

shadownick: Cythraul: When a millionaire/billionaire suggests that you need to be willing to 'work hard' in order to attain their level of wealth, what they really mean to say is 'have business ambition that is unwavering and single-minded, and sometimes ruthless.' Because that's what it seems to take for a person not born in wealth to gain a higher class in American society. Otherwise, any landscaper, nurse, janitor worker, strawberry picker would be a millionaire from all their hard work.

This, absolutely this. Most wealthy people I know started with nothing, but clawed their way up with somewhat ruthless ambition, and now are very wealthy indeed. Have another buddy who started 15 years ago as help desk support and worked his way up to being considered for VP for some technology related stuff at the Fortune 500 he started at. It's all about who you know, having good judgement on when its time to shift jobs, and be willing to take a few risks here and there.


Also keep in mind that people who are not born in wealth but become wealthy are usually slaves to their jobs I've met a few people like this. "Workaholic" would be a kind word to describe their work ethic. After seeing the sacrifices these kinds make in order to get more wealth, I sometimes wonder if it isn't better to try and eek out a living off of a modest middle class life than to try and become a rags-to-riches millionaire.
 
2012-08-30 11:17:08 AM  

Headso: Like Ann Romney talking about how hard her and Mitt had it in the early days when they could only borrow tens of thousands of dollars from their parents... Life is so hard and they made it all on their own.


Didn't they also have his millions of dollars in stock options to make ends meet? My heart just farking bleeds!
 
2012-08-30 11:17:49 AM  

ackb4r: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.

Do you know how many rich people's kids don't do jack shiat? Just sit around farking off and spending their parent's cheddar?

Of course, this lady started with significant advantages in life, but she didn't just squander them. So she gets a little credit for that.


Very little.

She's saying the reason why she is rich and we are not is because we don't work hard enough.

My time sheets say otherwise.
 
2012-08-30 11:18:03 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Fark != kickstarter
 
2012-08-30 11:19:19 AM  

SN1987a goes boom: The problem here is that CEOs that make over 100x the average salary of their company actually think they are working over 100x as hard as the average worker.


The new CEO of Best Buy will make $6.25 million even if he is not legally able to take the job. Yeah, that's value for the shareholders!

Needless to say when I read that I decided that I would never, ever so much as step into a Best Buy again.
 
2012-08-30 11:19:54 AM  
 
2012-08-30 11:20:29 AM  
Then I guess I'll start robbing rich people. If I work hard at it, I can be rich too.
 
2012-08-30 11:20:58 AM  

LockeOak: Fark != kickstarter


I agree. Kickstarter is where I ask for money for my retarded project. What I did was ask for a retarded project on which to spend my money.
 
2012-08-30 11:21:01 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Then I guess I'll start robbing rich people. If I work hard at it, I can be rich too.


Tell Bernie I said 'Hey.' ;)
 
2012-08-30 11:21:09 AM  
'Obvious' tag, subby?

'Hero' tag is more appropriate.
 
2012-08-30 11:21:12 AM  
If the French Revolution comes back into fashion, I'll be at the front of the thronging mob that heads into her ivory tower to drag her bloated, selfish fat ass down to the street to be pelted with trash and small blunt objects before being beheaded on live CNN.
 
2012-08-30 11:21:33 AM  
The richest people I know (including a couple of CEOs with compensation in the $10 mil+ range) love to drink and socialize. In fact, one told me that this is the way to truly get to know the character of the people you are dealing with. Just sayin.
 
2012-08-30 11:21:53 AM  

vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.


Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?
 
2012-08-30 11:21:54 AM  
So the 99% are all lazy idiots?
 
2012-08-30 11:22:22 AM  
What if I'm not jealous of those with more money, and just want the arsholes that are super rich to stop farking everyone over?
 
2012-08-30 11:22:32 AM  

vudukungfu: The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll TROLL the poor.


Just had to fix that.
 
2012-08-30 11:22:53 AM  
Why are the people starving? Why don't they just eat cake?
 
2012-08-30 11:23:29 AM  

Mugato: dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it

There's no reason to believe your average billionaire who was born into it has any more financial sense than anyone else.


You usually inherit daddy's financial advisers along with his money. Also that inheritance is already working to earn more money. They don't cash out the investments and hand you a check. Instead you inherit stock, real estate, companies, bonds, etc.
 
2012-08-30 11:23:32 AM  
Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Some days I wish I could get my hands on gods throat.
 
2012-08-30 11:23:57 AM  
I'm 9 hours into a 20 hour shift (ya rly) and I get to come back tomorrow for 16. I'm not poor but I'm not exactly rolling in dough either. Fark this lady.
 
2012-08-30 11:24:05 AM  
I don't have anything personal against the Occupy protesters, or any peaceful demonstrator for that matter. These guys at least had the initiative to get of their asses, go into the streets and protest about something. Most Americans would just laze in front of their televisions, ranting impotently at the world.
 
2012-08-30 11:24:22 AM  
Step 1: Inherit millions of dollars
Step 2: Use that money to make more money
Step 3: Profit!

My God! She's figured out Step 2!
 
2012-08-30 11:25:07 AM  

vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.


Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.
 
2012-08-30 11:25:09 AM  
1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 11:25:13 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Then I guess I'll start robbing rich people. If I work hard at it, I can be rich too.


That is one of the better ways. Lehman Brothers specialized in that, and a lot of people made big money that way.
 
2012-08-30 11:25:22 AM  
Working hard enough isn't the answer, considering a lot of people can't find work at all.
 
2012-08-30 11:25:55 AM  
It's telling that the anti-tax, anti-regulation types all assume the core motivation behind regulations, taxes and commonwealth services is jealousy of others' wealth.
Not, ya know, *history* and the fact that having these things has been better for everyone than not having them.
 
2012-08-30 11:26:25 AM  

cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)


When does your book come out?
 
2012-08-30 11:27:03 AM  

bifford: So the 99% are all lazy idiots?


Well, those who identify themselves as part of "the 99%" are idiots.
 
2012-08-30 11:28:28 AM  

dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.


Not just financial skills - also the motivation. I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer. They simply don't want to leave their comfort zone and blame others for the shortcomings in their life while yes, buying a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket.

It is OK to have poor people, wealthy, and everything in between and why this country feels otherwise is ridiculous. We need people to work at McDonalds, do our dry cleaning etc. We are all wired to do something in life and we should not reward those who are wired to mooch and take from others - especially those who do get offered jobs and turn them down because they would not make as much as they do from Welfare and hand outs.
 
2012-08-30 11:29:12 AM  

jayhawk88: dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.

All of this is true, but it doesn't excuse the ultra-rich from buying political influence, for the express purpose of making sure they receive more money-making opportunities and pay less taxes, all at the expense of the poor and middle class. Which is really why everyone is pissed off at rich people; not because we're "jealous".


I don't know of many people that are pissed off at someone with a couple million dollars. You got a little company and treat your employees well and make money, good for you. It's the people that milk the system, run companies into the ground while making big fat golden parachutes for themselves, the Enrons that lose all the workers entire retirement while making the management rich and nobody ever does time (helps to be buddies with the prez). The ones that profit here and contribute little. Except to campaigns that protect their interests, of course.
 
2012-08-30 11:29:31 AM  
You'll never get rich by making excuses...
 
2012-08-30 11:29:37 AM  
Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.
 
2012-08-30 11:30:27 AM  
Yeah, people, you all should have spent more time being born into wealthy families.
 
2012-08-30 11:30:53 AM  
Not only did she inherit millions - she inherited a million dollar company in the MINING sector.

Along comes China - "I want to buy all of your ore. Name your price"

She rode the Asian expansion to her billions. Like most people - her fortune had more to do with luck and the fact that the market played directly to her strengths.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 11:31:36 AM  

douchebag/hater: 'Obvious' tag, subby?

'Hero' tag is more appropriate.


Well, you have to give... Not respect but credit to someone who can inherit money then turn around and criticize people for not working harder to make her richer.
 
2012-08-30 11:31:59 AM  

vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.


Yes they do. I know several.
 
2012-08-30 11:32:45 AM  
Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business.
 
2012-08-30 11:32:56 AM  
I'm shocked that some version of "super hottie" didn't wind up in this headline.
 
2012-08-30 11:33:07 AM  

cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)



I'm not sure about 1). I've met a lot of six figure folks who work for the man.

For grist, I'm a big fan of the Dave Ramsey plan. I know it gets a little Jesus-y from time to time, but I worked the plan for a few years in a secular way and it did wonders. No credit card debt, no car debt, and I have a cash fund ready to blow on a car when my trusty '02 Prius dies. Get yo' backside out of debt pronto.
 
2012-08-30 11:33:20 AM  
Man, that is one ugly chick. You think she'd be all about getting the guys drunker...

/not enough liquor in the world.
 
2012-08-30 11:33:24 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Automatic...butt!
Fluorescent...booger!
 
2012-08-30 11:33:57 AM  

cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)


7) good relations with the local mafia chapter are useful in getting rid of that pesky competition.
 
2012-08-30 11:34:01 AM  
I like how she talks about getting wealthier and decreasing minimum wage in the same article. That's good stuff there.
 
2012-08-30 11:34:29 AM  
I agree with this guy 100%.. I grew up in detroit, had nothing.. i work 70 hours a week.. i don't believe in drinking and partying and i now have a good bank account and a nice house and a pretty good life.. just takes hard work.
 
2012-08-30 11:34:53 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Million dollar idea right here:

Invent (and sell to Frito Lay Et. Al.) a chip flavor that when you microwave them, the flavor actually tastes like real hot nachos with cheese (or some other desirable flavor). Basically, a microwave activated/enhanced chip flavoring...

I have others... like the "Purse Pal"...
 
2012-08-30 11:34:53 AM  

Visionmn2: dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.

Not just financial skills - also the motivation. I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer. They simply don't want to leave their comfort zone and blame others for the shortcomings in their life while yes, buying a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket.


It's also possible that those people feel guilty or insecure accepting your charity. They might be afraid of being under obligation to you, and they know $1000 is not enough to guarantee a turnaround in their lives. Disingenuous people may just take your money then make up whatever excuse they want when they eventually disappoint you.
 
2012-08-30 11:35:22 AM  
http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com/
 
2012-08-30 11:35:27 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Instead of blowing $500 why don't you just quit smoking, drinking and socializing?
 
2012-08-30 11:35:35 AM  

orclover: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Some days I wish I could get my hands on gods throat.


There are some churches that actually tell people they're poor because they're not Christian enough. Ya rly.
 
2012-08-30 11:35:41 AM  

ringersol: It's telling that the anti-tax, anti-regulation types all assume the core motivation behind regulations, taxes and commonwealth services is jealousy of others' wealth.
Not, ya know, *history* and the fact that having these things has been better for everyone than not having them.


How much tax? How much regulation? No reasonable person would want to do away with all taxes or all regulation, just like no reasonable person would advocate a 95% income tax rate. There is an optimal line and reasonable people can differ about where that line ought to be.
 
2012-08-30 11:36:26 AM  

RenHoekNL: Why are the people starving? Why don't they just eat cake?


Along the same lines, "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." - Hélder Câmara
 
2012-08-30 11:37:13 AM  

Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?


He's not far off. Sure, one can start a business and work 120 hours a week at it, but at the end of the day, if the market doesn't want their product, they're not getting rich.

Bill gates sold the rights to MS-DOS to IBM before he owned MS-DOS. The the owner of MS-DOS at the time learned that, he might have ignored Gate's offer to buy it and then he could have sold it to IBM. That simple exchange of information, through no fault of Gates, would have cost him billions. That's not hard work - that's luck.

If Jobs didn't have the engineering genius of Wozniak (they met in high-school), he would have never had an Apple computer to sell. If Wozniak didn't have the marketing sense of Jobs, his computer would have never sold like it did. Again - luck.

You could argue they would have all been millionaires anyway, but that's just speculation. No way would they be billionaires. At best, you can with a healthy amount of certainty they could be in jobs making low 6 figures a year. That is doable through "hard-work," assuming you know how to get there (i.e. lucky enough to have parents to guide you in your teenage years), and have the talent for those jobs (again luck. Not everyone can be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer).
 
2012-08-30 11:38:10 AM  

stevetherobot: fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.

Instead of blowing $500 why don't you just quit start smoking, drinking and socializing?


FTFY
 
2012-08-30 11:38:18 AM  

dittybopper: Those are just a couple examples of some of the bad financial decisions that tend to keep the long-term poor in economic distress. They don't really necessarily know any better, though: People tend to stay in their socio-economic class


This is why you should never take financial advice from a rich person if they were always rich; when you have money keeping it is easy. And when you don't, opportunity tends to skip your door and seek out a nicer neighborhood.

Less intuitively, you probably shouldn't take advice from a suddenly rich person who started poor either. Sure, we all dream of having that billion dollar idea and raking in the dough, but events like that usually involve way too much luck. If the circumstances were easy to duplicate, everyone would do it. Mark Zuckerberg made a fortune of a simple idea that it seems like any of us could have, but it's phenomenally lucky that he did so at the exact moment in history when his idea was workable and desired, that no one had done it quite as well previously, and that he got the right people to work on it. And that it caught on; sometimes brilliance just goes unnoticed and mediocrity becomes huge.

The people with good advice are the ones who ended up better off than they started, but gradually and more importantly consistently. Someone who became rich overnight probably has no idea how they really pulled it off. Someone who slowly built themselves up and somehow managed to be richer every week without fail is worth listening too, even if it took them 20 years to finally be "rich". Heck the longer it takes the better the advice probably is, because even a minor success is worthwhile if it can be repeated that reliably.
 
2012-08-30 11:38:54 AM  

vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.


Bullsh*t, it takes work. Some people have better starting advantages than others, but it always takes work. There are almost as many geniuses on welfare than millionaires. The only thing that is assured is that if you play on Fark, or Skyrim, or get high all day is that you will NEVER become wealthy.

I work a 7-5 during all day, business network 2-3 nights a week, and probably spend 2-4 hrs a night trying to find ways to save money or boost my income. I have been doing this for several years (sometimes spending 6+ hrs at night for weeks at a time). I am just now in my 30's, I will become wealthy, and if I don't I will keep trying. I want the freedom of not being tied to a 9-5 or relying on other people for my safety and the safety of my family, and I will fight and work and do whatever it takes to get it. People think I am smart, and I can assure you I am not, I have just WORKed my ass off compared to other people, and other people look at me and think there must be some kind of short cut to get where I am at. Most people can't even comprehend doing what I do, much less do it. And this is because limitations set in their own minds, mostly by making excuses like you did.

Another problem that I commonly see, is that many people have WAY too high of expectations for what the return for their work should be. You work 10 hours and expect $100, you put your money into the stock market and expect 10% returns, etc. The best way to reset this mentality is volunteer. I was unemployed for a year and spent a ton of time volunteering. You learn about all the intangible returns from working, enjoyment from productivity, helping other people, socializing, building skills. Again, sitting on your ass is the only way to get guaranteed results of ZERO.

The only exceptions I have to this are people who are seriously disabled (mentally or physicaily) and people who, at the moment, are literally starving (this excludes you, 300 lb lady eating mcd's on welfare).

Step 1: Contribute to society (without expecting returns)
Step 2: When you literally have no time to add anything else to your day, select your tasks based on return on investment
Step 3: Profit
Step 4: As profits approach "wealthy" levels, prioritize work-life balance gradually
 
2012-08-30 11:39:17 AM  

Visionmn2: I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer.


To be honest I don't think I'd accept your money either. It's one thing to be in debt to the bank, another to be in debt to a person you're not related to, and I don't want a phone call in the middle of the night sometime down the road from a guy who once leant me some cash who now needs help moving a body.
 
2012-08-30 11:39:31 AM  
All but one billionaire I know started with nothing. All but one of them made their money in television.

I advise working in television.
 
2012-08-30 11:39:55 AM  

Visionmn2: dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.

Not just financial skills - also the motivation. I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer. They simply don't want to leave their comfort zone and blame others for the shortcomings in their life while yes, buying a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket.

It is OK to have poor people, wealthy, and everything in between and why this country feels otherwise is ridiculous. We need people to work at McDonalds, do our dry cleaning etc. We are all wired to do something in life and we should not reward those who are wired to mooch and take from others - especially those who do get offered jobs and turn them down because they would not make as much as they do from Welfare and hand outs.


Your championing of the multi-class system is a bit strange to me, when just earlier in your post you criticize people for not wanting to leave their 'comfort zone.'

Also, I didn't know there were so many people claiming we need a one-class society in the U.S. What I have heard is people asking for the continuation of the health of our social programs which help make sure the poor do not suffer, which sounds reasonable to me.
 
2012-08-30 11:41:02 AM  
You don't get to be a billionaire without getting most of your income from investments which require very little work or none at all if you pawn it all off onto an advisor.
 
2012-08-30 11:41:07 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Then I guess I'll start robbing rich people. If I work hard at it, I can be rich too.


a wise man once said: "a man with a briefcase can steal more money than any man with a gun"
 
2012-08-30 11:41:10 AM  
"When I refuse to give food to the poor, they call me a Republican. When I ask why the poor are so lazy and why don't they get a job, they call me a Republican."
 
2012-08-30 11:41:36 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.


Dynastic wealth has no place in a democracy.

In any event, go ahead and give it to him. He gets taxed on his new income. Sounds fair to me.
 
2012-08-30 11:42:17 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: ringersol: It's telling that the anti-tax, anti-regulation types all assume the core motivation behind regulations, taxes and commonwealth services is jealousy of others' wealth.
Not, ya know, *history* and the fact that having these things has been better for everyone than not having them.

How much tax? How much regulation? No reasonable person would want to do away with all taxes or all regulation, just like no reasonable person would advocate a 95% income tax rate. There is an optimal line and reasonable people can differ about where that line ought to be.


You are wasting your breath. To them you want zero taxes and you want to dump radioactive waste in the river.
 
2012-08-30 11:43:58 AM  

Cythraul: cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)

When does your book come out?


No book, these were life lessons I've learned (almost too late in life, I was 50 at the time)
I should have included:

7) Invest in the "dogs of the Dow" that would be blue chips that give good dividends.
8) Take the dividends and plow them back into the stocks. It feeds on itself and you would be amazed how quickly it grows.
 
2012-08-30 11:44:11 AM  
It's easy to say that when you're born rich, or you had a ton of advantages many people don't have.
 
2012-08-30 11:44:29 AM  

vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.


I think you are disqualifying a lot of definitions of "work."
 
2012-08-30 11:44:37 AM  
While it's idiotic to hold up as examples of success people that inherited their wealth, it's just as idiotic to deny that poverty is largely a behavioral disorder. There have been plenty of examples/stories right here on Fark about poor people hitting a lottery or windfall and ending up right back at skid row or prison within a few years.
 
2012-08-30 11:44:51 AM  

GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.


You hush...with your fancy thinking, facts, and reality.
 
2012-08-30 11:45:07 AM  

fireclown: cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)


I'm not sure about 1). I've met a lot of six figure folks who work for the man.

For grist, I'm a big fan of the Dave Ramsey plan. I know it gets a little Jesus-y from time to time, but I worked the plan for a few years in a secular way and it did wonders. No credit card debt, no car debt, and I have a cash fund ready to blow on a car when my trusty '02 Prius dies. Get yo' backside out of debt pronto.


Six figures isn't rich. It's a lot of money and I'd like to be making that, but it's not rich. Well, maybe if the six figures are all 9s.
 
2012-08-30 11:45:07 AM  
Yeah, she's an asshat. It is extremely unlikely that working hard will ever make you a billionaire on its own, however working hard can get you to a very decent upper middle class life. My wife and her ex-husband worked the standard jobs and a ton of overtime. They saved and eventually were able to open their own business. They did very well, bringing in about 200k a year net. They were on their way to being millionaires, but a tragic motorcycle accident ended that dream.

The point is, it is possible to live a great life through hard work. They sacrificed a lot while building their business. Small house, used cars, no eating out or entertainment with every penny going towards getting the business. That and a lot of luck, no doubt, the right place, right time. However, no matter how hard they worked they were never ever going to be billionaires. Having a few million wasn't of reach in the long term, but rich isn't what I would have considered them.

But, as much as I don't like this billionaire, she does have a point. There are many a poor person who is kept poor by very bad decisions. New cars every two years, expensive clothing, big screen tv's. Saving is just not in most poor peoples state of mind. I see many waste what limited assets they have on things that have no value. However, it takes money to make money. Being poor sucks balls and getting out of it I'd difficult to damn near impossible.

So, I guess what I am saying is that both sides have valid points, although neither side understands each other. Man, I really need to get some sleep.
 
2012-08-30 11:45:39 AM  
I have a fantasy in which people are not allowed to graduate high school until they can give a dumbed-down, plain-English explanation of the word "stochastic." People seem very uncomfortable with the idea that although you can skew the odds in your favor, there are just some things in life that are out of your control (or effectively random.)

There is a big difference between "Hard work makes you rich" and "Hard work makes you more likely to get rich."
 
2012-08-30 11:45:54 AM  

GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.


Bingo. If I doubled my hours at my $18k per year job it wouldnt make me wealthy. It would only get me back where I was 6+ years ago. Even then I was mostly broke, but I had nicer stuff. Like a house and a new car. Now the car is 8 years old, the house is gone and we are living with the mother-in-law. I also did less physical work than I do now. Now its more work for less money.

What have I learned? When the economy is bad Florida is a terrible place to be. Well, it always sucked, it just sucks even more to be in FL AND broke.

/2 weeks till we leave this terrible state forever
 
2012-08-30 11:45:59 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


$500? lol
 
2012-08-30 11:47:30 AM  
It's true. I could probably make more money if I didn't fark around so much. I quit drinking, but I still burn at least 90 minutes a day here.
 
2012-08-30 11:47:47 AM  
The key to success in Capitalism is... wait for the surprise... capital.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 11:47:51 AM  

Cythraul: shadownick: Cythraul: When a millionaire/billionaire

Also keep in mind that people who are not born in wealth but become wealthy are usually slaves to their jobs I've met a few people like this. "Workaholic" would be a kind word to describe their work ethic. After seeing the sacrifices these kinds make in order to get more wealth, I sometimes wonder if it isn't better to try and eek out a living off of a modest middle class life than to try and become a rags-to-riches millionaire.


That is true sometimes, but usually those people have more sympathy with people who aren't wealthy because they didn't just have it fall into their laps. The problem is that they have an obsessive compulsive disorder, and have an unhealthy obsession with grasping at money. Also, expending effort isn't the same thing as "work" unless you think of work as something other than productive labor.

Most people have a more balanced outlook on life and just want to have a comfortable middle class life. They aren't jealous of the uber wealthy, the problem is that you can't really benefit from working harder if you are in the middle class because someone else decides what your labor is worth.

In our economic system, unless you have a strong union you are either rich or cheap labor. There simply isn't any provision for someone who wants to work hard for 40 or so hours and then live a normal life spending time with their family

The reason that the executives of corporations make hundreds of times what the employees make is that they are in a position to determine what labor is worth. As much as possible for themselves and as little as possible for the people who actually produce things.
 
2012-08-30 11:48:15 AM  

fireclown: cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)


I'm not sure about 1). I've met a lot of six figure folks who work for the man.

For grist, I'm a big fan of the Dave Ramsey plan. I know it gets a little Jesus-y from time to time, but I worked the plan for a few years in a secular way and it did wonders. No credit card debt, no car debt, and I have a cash fund ready to blow on a car when my trusty '02 Prius dies. Get yo' backside out of debt pronto.


I've known six figure men too, had money, toys, and ate well but lacked the one thing to make it good: Time
 
2012-08-30 11:48:15 AM  

Martian_Astronomer: There is a big difference between "Hard work makes you rich" and "Hard work makes you more likely to get rich."


So, luck makes you rich. Perhaps by being born to a family that's got money coming out the wazoo.
 
2012-08-30 11:48:19 AM  

impaler: Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?

He's not far off. Sure, one can start a business and work 120 hours a week at it, but at the end of the day, if the market doesn't want their product, they're not getting rich.

Bill gates sold the rights to MS-DOS to IBM before he owned MS-DOS. The the owner of MS-DOS at the time learned that, he might have ignored Gate's offer to buy it and then he could have sold it to IBM. That simple exchange of information, through no fault of Gates, would have cost him billions. That's not hard work - that's luck.

If Jobs didn't have the engineering genius of Wozniak (they met in high-school), he would have never had an Apple computer to sell. If Wozniak didn't have the marketing sense of Jobs, his computer would have never sold like it did. Again - luck.

You could argue they would have all been millionaires anyway, but that's just speculation. No way would they be billionaires. At best, you can with a healthy amount of certainty they could be in jobs making low 6 figures a year. That is doable through "hard-work," assuming you know how to get there (i.e. lucky enough to have parents to guide you in your teenage years), and have the talent for those jobs (again luck. Not everyone can be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer).


and if either of these tech giants didn't have the developments of the Xerox PARC to take their ideas and 'commercialize' them neither company would have been as successful.
 
2012-08-30 11:50:21 AM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Make apps that allow you to look like you're working when you're really goofing off.

/cut me in at 10%
 
2012-08-30 11:50:48 AM  
jayhawk88
.....Which is really why everyone is pissed off at rich people; not because we're "jealous".


Headso
Like Ann Romney talking about how hard her and Mitt had it in the early days when they could only borrow tens of thousands of dollars from their parents... Life is so hard and they made it all on their own.

Orgasmatron138
Yeah, people, you all should have spent more time being born into wealthy families.

orclover
Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Some days I wish I could get my hands on gods throat.


Definitely not because of jealousy. definitely.
 
2012-08-30 11:51:46 AM  
img442.imageshack.us

Someone once asked Richard Branson what was the fastest way for someone to become a millionaire. His answer "Be a billionaire and start an airline"

I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.
 
2012-08-30 11:52:51 AM  
Yeah, you lazy assholes. Inherit millions of dollars. It's easy. All you have to do is make sure you slide out of the right vagina.
 
2012-08-30 11:53:15 AM  

clevershark: Martian_Astronomer: There is a big difference between "Hard work makes you rich" and "Hard work makes you more likely to get rich."

So, luck makes you rich. Perhaps by being born to a family that's got money coming out the wazoo.


94% of America's millionaires are first generation, self made. But you knew that.
 
2012-08-30 11:53:21 AM  
So someone who didn't work for her money is telling me I need to work harder to get money?
Go fark yourself, fatty.
 
2012-08-30 11:54:04 AM  
How is what she is saying (and under the same circumstances) differing much from say what Donald Trump spreads? It's the same sort of arrogance, neatly summed up by the old adage: they were born on third base yet are convinced they've hit a triple all on their own. (You could toss the Koch Bros in that mix as well)

Someone above mentioned Zuckerberg and Bill Gates as examples of those who kind of made it on their own. I kind of accept that, but yet the reality is that both of those individuals were afforded the opportunities that a certain degree of inherent wealth provides. (Both came from fairly affluent households and were admitted to Harvard, where the formed alliances and friendships with other people from equally affluent backgrounds that lead to them creating a business that resulted in their huge wealth gains.)

Much like Mitt Romney's pedigree and family's affluence allowed for him to set himself up in business and amass a fortune.

On the other hand, you do have some people who came out of near poverty conditions and built up businesses, without the support (financial and other) and without the networking opportunities afforded those who came from affluence and wealth. Sam Walton (WalMart), Dave Thomas (Wendy's), John Paul DeJoria (Paul Mitchell), Larry Ellison (Oracle), Steve Jobs, et al.


But this ugly beyotch really has some nerve. Would love to see where she would be in life without the fortune she inherited. My guess is one of those folks she's complaining about, you know the ones who were far too lazy to make sure that they were born to wealthy parents.
 
2012-08-30 11:54:41 AM  
She looks like she spends most of her time eating, not working.
 
2012-08-30 11:57:03 AM  

clevershark: To be honest I don't think I'd accept your money either. It's one thing to be in debt to the bank, another to be in debt to a person you're not related to, and I don't want a phone call in the middle of the night sometime down the road from a guy who once leant me some cash who now needs help moving a body.


Someone else replied similarly - this is not a loan I was offering. Once a person has a position after getting an associates they need money to float them until their first paycheck. This is being offered as float money and without payback. The help has also been solicited via normal conversations. There is no high and mighty involved, not a handout like situation, and these people have been friends. I have been fortunate enough to live in a car down by the river and scratch my way up. I was given similar means and assistance and did something with it. Just paying it forward so to speak.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 11:57:07 AM  

Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?


Is this the "paint your opponent with your weakness thing?

Are you really stupid enough to think anyone ever got rich by working hard, or are you stupid enough to think that the financial shenanigans, fraud and similar things that actually make people rich are "work"?
 
2012-08-30 11:58:58 AM  
Oh look, another biatch who was born on third base and thinks she hit a triple.
 
2012-08-30 11:59:23 AM  
So you sacrifice your life to the sole accumulation of wealth so your hedonistic ungrateful kids (who hate you for never being there) can make idiotic comments about working hard to get where they are?
 
2012-08-30 11:59:26 AM  

Magnus: jayhawk88
.....Which is really why everyone is pissed off at rich people; not because we're "jealous".


Headso
Like Ann Romney talking about how hard her and Mitt had it in the early days when they could only borrow tens of thousands of dollars from their parents... Life is so hard and they made it all on their own.

Orgasmatron138
Yeah, people, you all should have spent more time being born into wealthy families.

orclover
Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Some days I wish I could get my hands on gods throat.

Definitely not because of jealousy. definitely.


You sound sarcastic. Which is odd, because nothing they said there indicates jealousy. They're talking about how people born into wealth act like they did it on their own. "Born on third base and think they hit a triple" is the phrase.
 
2012-08-30 12:01:09 PM  

Mary_Contrary: How many of you are at work right now?
That helps explain it.


Are the Kochs paying people to troll on Fark now too?
 
2012-08-30 12:02:42 PM  
I know how to make a small fortune in the stock market, and I'll tell it to you for free: start with a large fortune.
 
2012-08-30 12:02:51 PM  

Visionmn2: Someone else replied similarly - this is not a loan I was offering. Once a person has a position after getting an associates they need money to float them until their first paycheck. This is being offered as float money and without payback. The help has also been solicited via normal conversations. There is no high and mighty involved, not a handout like situation, and these people have been friends. I have been fortunate enough to live in a car down by the river and scratch my way up. I was given similar means and assistance and did something with it. Just paying it forward so to speak.


It's your money, you do what you want, but anyone would be suspicious that payback will be required at some point in time. You know how the mafia gets people "on side"? They do them a favor first. I'm sure that's not what you have in mind, but the adage "there's no such thing as a free lunch" resonates with people who have some experience of the world.
 
2012-08-30 12:03:20 PM  

vudukungfu: The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll the poor.


That's really the difference between old money and new money, right there. Folks who got rich by their own hard work are often very humble and such. those who inherited the money feel more entitled and elitist about it.

I've known a few multimillionaires who are self made, hell I work for one. Both are the nicest guys you'd ever meet.
 
2012-08-30 12:03:44 PM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


You are right, building up your network 100x is easy, and just because she started with something, she doesn't know anything about the benefits of hard work and perseverance.

Actually, she makes an even better role model. She probably could have afforded to sit back and have a comfortable existence doing nothing, but she instead built up a vast financial holding.
 
2012-08-30 12:03:49 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.


Because she's telling people (a quite a few that have worked a hell of a lot harder than she ever has), to "just work harder to get rich." She would have never been able to start a billion dollar business if she didn't already have a millions of dollars. She has no idea how to become rich if you don't have millions of dollars.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 12:04:49 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: bifford: So the 99% are all lazy idiots?

Well, those who identify themselves as part of "the 99%" are idiots.


Is this the "paint your opponent with your weakness thing?

Are you really stupid enough to think anyone ever got rich by working hard, or are you stupid enough to think that the financial shenanigans, fraud and similar things that actually make people rich are "work"?
 
2012-08-30 12:05:50 PM  

qorkfiend: Sure. But it's a little galling for someone who inherited millions of dollars to sit and lecture people about hard work.


Someone who could have afforded to do nothing, instead worked hard and multiplied her fortune 100x? How is this galling?
 
2012-08-30 12:06:50 PM  
It's physics. You can point all your force into the ground and you won't go anywhere. Point your force parallel to the surface, and you can make progress. Working hard only gets you somewhere if you have a good plan.
 
2012-08-30 12:06:52 PM  

vpb: GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.

Generally the people who work hardest are the poorest. You get rich by acquiring the right to the product of other people's wealth.


Can you even remotely back this up?
 
2012-08-30 12:07:07 PM  

MycroftHolmes: You are right, building up your network 100x is easy, and just because she started with something, she doesn't know anything about the benefits of hard work and perseverance.


We can say for certain she has no idea how to build up your net worth 100X if you already don't have millions of dollars. Her advice is useless to anyone that doesn't have millions of dollars.
 
2012-08-30 12:07:10 PM  
 
2012-08-30 12:07:28 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.


I don't think people here are faulting her for building on her fortune. What they're faulting her for is her fundamental misunderstanding of challenges facing the lower middle class, and increasingly the middle class.

Rising out of poverty is not easily done, and with a few notable exceptions requires societal support (at a minimum in the form of education). This is a nut that the US and the rest of the first world has found tough to crack. We do a progressively sh*tty job as you move down the class structure.

Her sentiment that poor pull oneself out of poverty simply by working harder and more, while she advocates actually lowering minimum wage is at best laughably out of touch.
 
2012-08-30 12:07:40 PM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


Exactly. NO ONE is allowed to become a millionaire these days unless the OTHER millionaires allow him/her to enter their ranks, or they inherit a huge sack of money from their dead parents.

Warren Buffet would STILL be bagging groceries if he was born fourty years later than he was.
 
2012-08-30 12:08:30 PM  

Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?


The numbers for financial upward mobility say he's pretty right. Americans are working just as hard as they've ever been, and it's getting them nowhere.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 12:09:02 PM  

impaler: What if I'm not jealous of those with more money, and just want the arsholes that are super rich to stop farking everyone over?


No, you have to be rich or lazy. Just being a normal person who works for a living isn't something that wealthy people can get their heads around.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 12:10:28 PM  

KatjaMouse: orclover: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Some days I wish I could get my hands on gods throat.

There are some churches that actually tell people they're poor because they're not Christian enough. Ya rly.


That's just the protestant work "ethic".
 
2012-08-30 12:10:54 PM  
 
2012-08-30 12:12:01 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Can you even remotely back this up?


You could do a little looking around. There are people who are making a shiat-ton of money, and with extremely few exceptions they are doing very little 'real work' themselves. They are moving around money made by people who are doing 'real work', and those workers aren't really going anywhere.
 
2012-08-30 12:12:20 PM  
I wonder if she ended up looking like that because she spent too much time

a) getting up and doing stuff
or
b) just sitting there
 
2012-08-30 12:13:37 PM  
"parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance" isn't hard work.

"If you have a hundred dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten, that's work. If you have a hundred million dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten million, that's inevitable" (source unknown)
 
2012-08-30 12:14:21 PM  

clevershark: It's your money, you do what you want, but anyone would be suspicious that payback will be required at some point in time. You know how the mafia gets people "on side"? They do them a favor first. I'm sure that's not what you have in mind, but the adage "there's no such thing as a free lunch" resonates with people who have some experience of the world.


Totally understand where you are coming from but if someone puts in the two years and does all the work themselves and proves motivation and seriousness that is hardly free in my opinion. This is also having the understanding that there are 6.8 billion opinions in this world and knowing others will differ from mine. Thank you for sharing yours.
 
2012-08-30 12:14:59 PM  

impaler: MycroftHolmes: You are right, building up your network 100x is easy, and just because she started with something, she doesn't know anything about the benefits of hard work and perseverance.

We can say for certain she has no idea how to build up your net worth 100X if you already don't have millions of dollars. Her advice is useless to anyone that doesn't have millions of dollars.


So, you are saying that the principle of deferred gratification, hard work, and focus are not portable concepts? That she can't offer advice except to people with exactly the same situation?

It is funny, because we see pro and Olympic athletes all the time doing public service announcements about the value of exercise. They are so freakin' stupid, because since I was not born with their genetic gifts, they don't know anything about the value of exercise, or discipline, or focus.
 
2012-08-30 12:15:18 PM  
Wow, jabba the hutt has really let himself go.
 
2012-08-30 12:15:39 PM  

impaler: What if I'm not jealous of those with more money, and just want the arsholes that are super rich to stop farking everyone over?


FYI, I meant to say "the arsholes that happen to be super rich to stop farking everyone over."

Not everyone that's super rich is an arsehole.
 
2012-08-30 12:17:06 PM  
Australia's richest person Gina Rinehart has urged Australians to work harder and cut down on drinking, smoking and socialising if they want to become wealthy.

What if we don't really care about becoming wealthy, but we think it would be nice if millionaires and billionaires actually paid their damn taxes instead of lobbying for loopholes in the tax code that allow them to dodge most of their tax burden so that they can stick that money in an offshore bank account to never be seen again, which creates 0 jobs and does nothing to contribute to the overall economy? Maybe I am jealous of the obscenely wealthy, but not in the way that you think. I'm jealous of your tax rate, not your wealth. I wish I could get away with paying so little.
 
2012-08-30 12:17:19 PM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Develop a system where all I have to do is press star (*) or pound (#) on my land line, or cell that would block the caller from ever calling me again. Example, I get a call from some politician, press one button and never get another from that phone number.
 
2012-08-30 12:17:54 PM  
While I don't know about "rich" one of the biggest things you need to do to retire well off is don't get snakebit. Don't have a child with Downs Syndrome or a radical behavior disorder. Don't develop a drug habit. Don't have a kid or spouse who develops a drug habit. Don't live beyond your means. Don't get cancer. Don't marry a biatch/bastard. Don't have your parents have to live with you. Don't have an unplanned and way too early pregnancy. Don't major in poetry. Don't get in a car wreck and break your back. Some of these things are in our control, some aren't. Been lucky so far....my mum and law lived with us with dementia for five years or so, but it wasn't that big of a deal.
 
2012-08-30 12:19:33 PM  
This is a poor excuse for a thread
 
2012-08-30 12:21:23 PM  
i1158.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-30 12:21:27 PM  

Icetech3: I agree with this guy 100%.. I grew up in detroit, had nothing.. i work 70 hours a week.. i don't believe in drinking and partying and i now have a good bank account and a nice house and a pretty good life.. just takes hard work.


If your job happens to as boring and unsatisfying as most are, then no, you don't have a pretty good life if you're spending that much time there.
 
2012-08-30 12:21:29 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: MycroftHolmes: Can you even remotely back this up?

You could do a little looking around. There are people who are making a shiat-ton of money, and with extremely few exceptions they are doing very little 'real work' themselves. They are moving around money made by people who are doing 'real work', and those workers aren't really going anywhere.


1. Define real work-I manage a team of network engineers. I make 1.5 times what they make, but I do less actual configuration of equipment, directly produce fewer deliverable. My guess is that you would say that I do less 'real work', though my input and management results in higher efficiency, so the value I add is high.
2. It is fallacious to define the curve by the outliers. Sure there are some 1% who are there because of luck or unethical behavior. And we all hear about these guys because they are notorious. But do they really make up the gamut of all the people that could be considered well off?
3. Confirmation bias-you already want to believe that the wealthy are a bunch of lazy bums. So you look for instances that support your stance, or interpret facts to support your stance.

I went to a business school taught solely by successful entrepreneurs. They had net worth's ranging from a few million to over $500 million. The $500 million one did start with family money, but he also put in 100+ hour week after 100+ hour week to achieve success.
 
2012-08-30 12:23:34 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: MycroftHolmes: Can you even remotely back this up?

You could do a little looking around.


Classic. There's the whole Internet, right there. Well, that and captioned cat pictures.

/"Studio audience, are you ready?!? It's time to play Prove my Assertion!"
 
2012-08-30 12:23:48 PM  
"Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance..."

Typical. "I worked very hard to outlive my parents so if you want to be rich quit, drinking, smoking and socialzing and outlive your wealthy parents".
 
2012-08-30 12:24:34 PM  

mod3072: Australia's richest person Gina Rinehart has urged Australians to work harder and cut down on drinking, smoking and socialising if they want to become wealthy.

What if we don't really care about becoming wealthy, but we think it would be nice if millionaires and billionaires actually paid their damn taxes instead of lobbying for loopholes in the tax code that allow them to dodge most of their tax burden so that they can stick that money in an offshore bank account to never be seen again, which creates 0 jobs and does nothing to contribute to the overall economy? Maybe I am jealous of the obscenely wealthy, but not in the way that you think. I'm jealous of your tax rate, not your wealth. I wish I could get away with paying so little.


That's a lie. It creates like 2 accounting jobs. In the Bahamas.
 
2012-08-30 12:24:54 PM  
The thing I don't get about her argument: not everyone can do it. I don't mean because not everyone has the skills (although that's true), but because it's not mathematically possible.

I'm no economist, but there are N dollars in the economy. If we all woke up tomorrow and had exactly equal skill and drive, we wouldn't all become rich. Someone has to consume the production.

Also, I agree with those above who say to become rich you must start a business. Someone replied and said that they know people making 6 figures working for the man. The kind of 6 figures you make being an employee won't get you rich. If you are very, very elite you might make over $500k/year as an employee somewhere, but that's extremely rare.
 
2012-08-30 12:25:41 PM  
This is what she sounds like in my head...

When I first started this company, I had just two things in my possession: a simple dream, and six million pounds. Today, I have a business empire the like of which the world has never seen the like of which.

img207.imageshack.us

I hope it doesn't sound arrogant when I say that I am the greatest man in the world.
 
2012-08-30 12:27:25 PM  
Steve Martin explained how to become a millionaire:

"First, get a million dollars..."
 
2012-08-30 12:28:07 PM  

vudukungfu: The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll the poor.


I worked for a guy like this once. First time I ever met him, he showed up at my house at a neighbor's request in boots and jeans with a couple of chainsaws to help cut up this tree that had fallen on my house. Later I found out he was worth something like $8 million.

But I still think he's in the 99%. Compared to a Romney or an Adelson or a Koch or a Buffett, a net worth of $8M is nothing.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-08-30 12:28:23 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.


No, you are looking at it from the wrong angle. A company is a group of people working together. You may have played a major role in building it, and you may be a part of it, but you didn't build it all by yourself.

You may have contributed money and time and maybe leadership, so you earned something. Not everything but something. Your son didn't. He certainly didn't earn the right to control other peoples livelihoods or to control the fraction of the economy that that company represents.
 
2012-08-30 12:28:40 PM  

plcow: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Bullsh*t, it takes work. Some people have better starting advantages than others, but it always takes work. There are almost as many geniuses on welfare than millionaires. The only thing that is assured is that if you play on Fark, or Skyrim, or get high all day is that you will NEVER become wealthy.

I work a 7-5 during all day, business network 2-3 nights a week, and probably spend 2-4 hrs a night trying to find ways to save money or boost my income. I have been doing this for several years (sometimes spending 6+ hrs at night for weeks at a time). I am just now in my 30's, I will become wealthy, and if I don't I will keep trying. I want the freedom of not being tied to a 9-5 or relying on other people for my safety and the safety of my family, and I will fight and work and do whatever it takes to get it. People think I am smart, and I can assure you I am not, I have just WORKed my ass off compared to other people, and other people look at me and think there must be some kind of short cut to get where I am at. Most people can't even comprehend doing what I do, much less do it. And this is because limitations set in their own minds, mostly by making excuses like you did.

Another problem that I commonly see, is that many people have WAY too high of expectations for what the return for their work should be. You work 10 hours and expect $100, you put your money into the stock market and ...


People don't become billionaires by working their ass off. Hard working people are dime-a-dozen. You have to have something that everybody else doesn't - whether it's a killer idea, the right contacts, lots of capital, etc. - in any combination, and be in the right place at the right time.

It's easy to judge people for their situation, but it's a lot harder to look ourselves in the mirror judge how much we can help, either as individuals through voluteering or donating, or collectively through supporting effective social and government programs.
 
2012-08-30 12:28:58 PM  
This idea that everybody can be rich if they just work hard is an illusion that needs to be dispelled.

At best, people can become middle-class and comfortable through hard work and halfway sound financial decisions.

Rich? That's pure luck of either birth or circumstance.

Okay. Let's say you're a typical, average, normal American, just very hard working. You are born to a middle class or lower-middle-class family. You get slightly above average grades (average intellect, but study hard). You work a part-time job in your teenage years.

You want to go to College to get ahead. Well, you've got two choices (since your parents aren't rich enough to pay for it all)

1. Go deep into student loan debt, racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt in the hope your education will pay it off.
2. Join the military and use your GI Bill and/or Tuition Assistance to pay for College. This hopes that you can get into the military and don't have a disqualifying medical condition, or otherwise are suitable for military service.

So, once you've traded off either 6 years of your life, or a mid-five-figure range debt for a degree, what are you going to do?

Now, let's assume you followed the popular advice here on Fark and majored in a hard science, like Physics or Chemistry. Well, university calculus is pretty freaking hard, and so are upper-level hard science classes, so even though you're a hard worker, Mr. Average will barely pass and skate by with a mediocre GPA.

Okay, you're in the job market. . .now what? Job market stinks. That science degree makes you fit to hold the same jobs any other college graduate has, or to work as a lab assistant. A Bachelor's degree, or even a Master's degree in hard sciences doesn't guarantee a good job.

So, you can go to graduate school, and hope to get a Ph.D. and make your way into academia. . .but that isn't going to make you "rich", just mildly affluent (at best). Your average intellect will have trouble competing with the elite intelligentsia, no matter how hard working you are.

Hmm. You could open a business! That's it, a small business!

Oops, the vast majority of small businesses fail within the first year or two. You can be very hard working, but unless you get very lucky, that business will probably fail. You don't have the capitol to invest in a franchise of some big chain or something that is almost guaranteed to make a profit.

So, where in all this does just getting out and working hard make you rich?
 
2012-08-30 12:29:01 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

Dynastic wealth has no place in a democracy.

In any event, go ahead and give it to him. He gets taxed on his new income. Sounds fair to me.


Asset confiscation has no place in a democracy either.

But yeah I'm okay with treating inheritances as income, quite honestly. Not so much just to take from the rich, but because we need revenue.

Okay to do it to all inheritances I assume? You inherit your folks' $150k house that's taxable income to you for that year, ok?After all, if it's income to a rich deadbeat son it would be income to you, no?
 
2012-08-30 12:29:18 PM  

Thunderpipes: 94% of America's millionaires are first generation, self made. But you knew that.


It's pretty high, but not that high. Try 80%. (Actual citation, vs. pulling a number out of my butt.)
 
2012-08-30 12:29:42 PM  

MycroftHolmes: So, you are saying that the principle of deferred gratification, hard work, and focus are not portable concepts? That she can't offer advice except to people with exactly the same situation?


*facepalm.jpg*

In her regular column in a mining industry magazine, the controversial magnate says billionaires and millionaires are doing more than anyone to help the poor by investing their money and creating jobs.

Corporate profits up, yet so is unemployment.
 
2012-08-30 12:33:08 PM  

dittybopper: Doesn't mean the advice is bad.


It does mean the advice is a worthless generalization. I don't smoke, don't drink, and never socialize (though I do speak to my wife). All I do is work. All day, every day, every evening. And I'm not a billionaire. I'll bet I work harder than Ms. Rinehart. What am I to do with her advice?
 
2012-08-30 12:34:14 PM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


An amazing amount can be accumulated for a small expenditure, decent audio/video recording equipment, a vulnerable person and a dead hooker.

/Or so I hear.
 
2012-08-30 12:35:03 PM  
I would work harder but I end up falling asleep early and sleeping through the night (9p-6a) - what a waste of time !
 
2012-08-30 12:36:19 PM  
As many others have pointed out, she lacks credibility on the issue, due to her starting on third base. While she could argue, with some justification, that many others have done so and squandered it all, she still sounds like an asshole.

She also neglects to mention the positive career impacts of socializing. Building networks is key, especially in a scarce job market.

I will agree, however, with her general sentiment that many who are poor (and middle class and rich, for that matter) waste a lot of time. My friends used to ask me how I made time to work full-time, go to school four nights a week, and still socialize my ass off. They complained about never having enough time. I asked them how many hours of television they watched a week. Usually about twenty hours to thirty hours. Which is about the time it takes to go to school full-time, with time left over for studying and socializing.
 
2012-08-30 12:36:41 PM  

vernonFL: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

What is this? I don't even...


I get your point, she didn't earn the multi-million dollar inheritance.

HOWEVER, in all fairness, she did turn a few million into a mining empire worth more than $20 billion. That didn't happen in a void.

The reality is you cannot become rich by working a ten or fifteen dollar an hour job, and then blowing your extra money on smoking, drinking.

If you want to improve your station, work hard, live frugally, save your money and take a calculated risk and open your own business. It is not a guarantee that you will become a millionaire, but it is a guarantee that you have a much improved chance of improving your life compared to doing nothing.
 
2012-08-30 12:37:01 PM  

MycroftHolmes: but he also put in 100+ hour week after 100+ hour week to achieve success.


A lot of people put a lot of work into their business, only to end up bankrupt. One's odds of having a business still operating after 4 years is equal to betting on "black" at a roulette table.

www.statisticbrain.com
 
GBB
2012-08-30 12:38:31 PM  

dittybopper: It's kind of like a natural born Olympic level athlete telling the rest of us to exercise more. Sure, we'll never swim like Michael Phelps or run like Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean that regular exercise won't make us more healthy.

...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...


Just like your Olympian analogy, not everyone is cut out to be a financial genius or business mogul. The problem is that not everyone is a strong player in the Game of Money. But, it's a game that we are all forced to play. And just like a weak kid getting bullied on the playground, the rich continually grab the poor's arm and slap them in the face with their own hand while chastizing them to "stop hitting yourself".
 
2012-08-30 12:40:27 PM  
I thought the Huts made their money in gambling and being loan sharks.

i.imgur.com

For comparison...
upload.wikimedia.org 

/Bring Solo and Wookie
//Eats frog-thingy
 
2012-08-30 12:40:38 PM  

T.M.S.: All but one billionaire I know started with nothing. All but one of them made their money in television.

I advise working in television.


"Plastics"
richgee.com
 
2012-08-30 12:41:32 PM  
I don't look to the rich as an example but the words are valid.

I started off dirt poor. Literally, we had no floor in our house until we bought a trailer. Then, when I was 8, we bought a tiny house in South Texas.

I do not have a college education but I do know how to make decisions that better my family. I don't know how I got the skill, maybe from watching my older brother make so many bad ones. I made a lot of bad decisions, too, living with a 30 year old when I was 16, dropping out of high school for a while, etc.

But one must remember that those bad decisions are okay...they are not who you are, they are only points in your life to help you become who you will be. THAT's the focus.

Because of that one thing, my children's children will be well-to-do. My family made little money, I make more, my child will learn from me and make more than that and, if I've done my job right, they will have integrity, honor and character to teach their children as well.

I'm not focused on being a millionaire; I'm focused on my grandchildren having a better life than my children do.

There's too much importance placed on getting money now and too much importance put on the "me".

/Anecdotal so you can ignore it or inspiring so you can think about it...your choice
 
2012-08-30 12:42:14 PM  

vpb: GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.

Generally the people who work hardest are the poorest. You get rich by acquiring the right to the product of other people's wealth.


Exactly. Minus the financial sector, commerce is all about selling objects produced by another person's labor while paying the lowest price possible for that labor. The primary concern of commerce, then, is managing labor; in goods industries there is a level of abstraction, but in service industries this is direct and explicit. Regarding Finance, the objective is to create investment "vehicles" out of the labor of others, while at the same time farming as many service fees and claiming as much interests(itself merely a "usage" fee; thus "usury") from those vehicles as possible, so we're simply talking about an additional level of abstraction, not a fundamentally different behavior.
 
2012-08-30 12:42:17 PM  
Took this long?
Billionaires, Politicians.. same thing.

t0.gstatic.com 

Bullworth: Isn't that OBVIOUS? You got half your kids are out of work and the other half are in jail. Do you see ANY Democrat doing anything about it? Certainly not me! So what're you gonna do, vote Republican? Come on! Come on, you're not gonna vote Republican! Let's call a spade a spade!
[Loud, angry booing]

Bullworth: I mean - come on! You can have a Billion Man March! If you don't put down that malt liquor and chicken wings, and get behind someone other than a running back who stabs his wife, you're NEVER gonna get rid of somebody like me!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118798/quotes?qt=qt0144749
 
2012-08-30 12:43:55 PM  
If she really wanted to be a job creator, she should hire someone to bathe her, comb her hair and put on some makeup. That would take a decent size staff - especially the ones wrangling her into a tub.

For such a rich person, she always looks greasy and a bit stinky.

Plus, would it kill her to smile?

/If she can give "get out of poverty" tips, I'm going to offer her some grooming tips.
 
2012-08-30 12:46:11 PM  

Babwa Wawa: [i.imgur.com image 340x226]

Finally, the answer to Babwa Wawa's eternal question: "What I wouldn't do for a billion dollars."


She could stand to spend a teensy bit of her fortune on some plastic surgery and a good exercise / diet program...
 
2012-08-30 12:46:37 PM  

signaljammer: Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.


What you're saying, then, is that his parents aren't idiots. Weird how that works out. Smart kids have smart parents.
 
2012-08-30 12:48:07 PM  

vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.


No matter how many times I explain this issue, there are still delusional morons that refuse to believe in reality. There is 1 component to success, opportunity. There is a laundry list of things you can do to improve the likelihood of taking advantage of your opportunity/opportunities, many of which are in your control, but the fact remains that without out opportunity, none of those other factors matter.
 
2012-08-30 12:50:11 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

Dynastic wealth has no place in a democracy.

In any event, go ahead and give it to him. He gets taxed on his new income. Sounds fair to me.

Asset confiscation has no place in a democracy either.


It has been part of ours since its founding.

But yeah I'm okay with treating inheritances as income, quite honestly. Not so much just to take from the rich, but because we need revenue.

Okay to do it to all inheritances I assume? You inherit your folks' $150k house that's taxable income to you for that year, ok?After all, if it's income to a rich deadbeat son it would be income to you, no?


Yes. Thankfully though, rich people pay our politicians to raise the ceiling on what is untaxable. Since I come from no money, it's nothing I'll ever need to care about.
 
2012-08-30 12:52:34 PM  

dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it.


The rich have the ability to diversify their investments and retain enough so they don't become an overworked 99%er even in the worst case scenario. Of course maintaining that would take skills that most don't have.
 
2012-08-30 12:54:02 PM  
That advice is bs, this woman has plenty of free time to stuff pie in her fat face.
 
2012-08-30 12:54:47 PM  
I think money skills to the 1% are tantamount to fighting skills for bullies. Bullies usually win and exploit the weak because they're frequently exercising their fighting skill. The weak (i.e. 99%) only triumph against the bully in movies and very seldom in real life.
 
2012-08-30 12:54:50 PM  
Despite all the vitriol in this thread, she has a valid point.

Sure, she inherited millions. But she worked hard and turned in into billions.

Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

But to be completely fair, she missed the obvious fact that hard work alone is not enough to make you fabulously wealthy. It takes having a good marketable idea that's worth money in order to become a millionaire/billionaire.
 
2012-08-30 12:56:25 PM  

vpb: Cythraul: shadownick: Cythraul: When a millionaire/billionaire

Also keep in mind that people who are not born in wealth but become wealthy are usually slaves to their jobs I've met a few people like this. "Workaholic" would be a kind word to describe their work ethic. After seeing the sacrifices these kinds make in order to get more wealth, I sometimes wonder if it isn't better to try and eek out a living off of a modest middle class life than to try and become a rags-to-riches millionaire.

That is true sometimes, but usually those people have more sympathy with people who aren't wealthy because they didn't just have it fall into their laps. The problem is that they have an obsessive compulsive disorder, and have an unhealthy obsession with grasping at money. Also, expending effort isn't the same thing as "work" unless you think of work as something other than productive labor.

Most people have a more balanced outlook on life and just want to have a comfortable middle class life. They aren't jealous of the uber wealthy, the problem is that you can't really benefit from working harder if you are in the middle class because someone else decides what your labor is worth.

In our economic system, unless you have a strong union you are either rich or cheap labor. There simply isn't any provision for someone who wants to work hard for 40 or so hours and then live a normal life spending time with their family

The reason that the executives of corporations make hundreds of times what the employees make is that they are in a position to determine what labor is worth. As much as possible for themselves and as little as possible for the people who actually produce things.


Except, an executive's job isn't to produce "things" as much as it's their job to create shareholder value. Until we change fiduciary duty, we'll keep heading back towards feudalism. It also doesn't help that the overwhelming majority of people don't really have the skills needed to compete in the modern global economy, and have basically become serfs. Unless one has a STEM degree from a tier 1 school or equivalent, they're pretty much SOL.
 
2012-08-30 12:57:57 PM  

dervish16108: dittybopper: The rich who lose all their money don't generally fall into long-term poverty due to misfortune or the occasional misstep, though they can fall into short term poverty. They end up clawing their way back out of it.

The rich have the ability to diversify their investments and retain enough so they don't become an overworked 99%er even in the worst case scenario. Of course maintaining that would take skills that most don't have.


True story. It's true that we should be equal under the law, and it's important to work towards that. But we're not actually equal. We all have different talents and abilities and it sucks that 90% of people don't have any that are worth much.
 
2012-08-30 12:58:15 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.


Because an organization is necessarily a group effort. Why do you get to claim ownership? Because you put down the start-up capital? Did you construct your factories, build all your production, organize the work, oversee it, handle all the sales and advertising? Those people clocking in everyday to ensure your business remains productive and successful have as much, if not a more, of a claim to owning their collective activity than you, the money-man. You don't "own" a corporation any more than you own the employees who do all the work. A corporation employs, produces goods, pays taxes; it is a social entity and as such a more democratic form of management and "ownership" which takes these other concerned parties into consideration is not only morally fairer but also more efficient, as Germany and Japan's heavily unionized and consistently robust manufacturing sectors prove.
 
2012-08-30 12:58:56 PM  

impaler: MycroftHolmes: but he also put in 100+ hour week after 100+ hour week to achieve success.

A lot of people put a lot of work into their business, only to end up bankrupt. One's odds of having a business still operating after 4 years is equal to betting on "black" at a roulette table.

[www.statisticbrain.com image 620x321]


It's supposed to be hard and time-consuming. If it wasn't, everyone would JUST DO IT.
 
2012-08-30 12:59:17 PM  
It's a crime obviously to be successful in the liberal world. Does being on food stamps and welfare make you a winner? According to Obama it does.
 
2012-08-30 12:59:34 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.


Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.
 
2012-08-30 12:59:44 PM  

vpb: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

No, you are looking at it from the wrong angle. A company is a group of people working together. You may have played a major role in building it, and you may be a part of it, but you didn't build it all by yourself.

You may have contributed money and time and maybe leadership, so you earned something. Not everything but something. Your son didn't. He certainly didn't earn the right to control other peoples livelihoods or to control the fraction of the economy that that company represents.


Isn't it up to me to decide if my son "earned" the right to own/control/run the company? I have spent a major portion of my life doing what I can to help run the company to where it is today. No, I didn't do it alone, and knowing that I also know I don't want to leave the company flapping in the wind when I do leave, so I want to be sure it is in good hands when I leave. I have also done my best to raise my son and prepare him for what lies ahead of him in the real world. If I feel he is suited to taking over my role at the company, isn't that my decision? If I feel like he would only run it into the ground, I'd like to think I'd be smart enough not to throw away everything I've worked for in life just because that dunce happens to be my kid.
 
2012-08-30 12:59:52 PM  

Heron: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

Because an organization is necessarily a group effort. Why do you get to claim ownership? Because you put down the start-up capital? Did you construct your factories, build all your production, organize the work, oversee it, handle all the sales and advertising? Those people clocking in everyday to ensure your business remains productive and successful have as much, if not a more, of a claim to owning their collective activity than you, the money-man. You don't "own" a corporation any more than you own the employees who do all the work. A corporation employs, produces goods, pays taxes; it is a social entity and as such a more democratic form of management and "ownership" which takes these other concerned parties i ...


Ever heard of a lazy German or Japanese person?
 
2012-08-30 01:00:11 PM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


And of course, she's whining for tax cuts and demanding wage cuts for the poor.

[Rinehart] suggested the government should lower the minimum wage of $606.40 a week and cut taxes to stimulate employment. 

Incidentally, the current weekly minimum wage in Australia ($606) is roughly what this born-an-inch-from-the-plate-thinks-she-hit-a-homer troll made last year ($598) every second.
 
2012-08-30 01:00:29 PM  

SweetBluebonnet: It's a crime obviously to be successful in the liberal world. Does being on food stamps and welfare make you a winner? According to Obama it does.


0.1/10
 
2012-08-30 01:00:36 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.


Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.
 
2012-08-30 01:00:47 PM  
My question is, objectively, what is rich?

I work as a project manager for a custom home construction business in Ohio and, right now, the economy and market is BOOMING again ... 2010 and 2011 were our best years in 20 years of business and 2012 is set to break all of our previous records.

That being said, I make a high five-figure salary and I live like a KING. I have two reasonably nice cars that are 100% paid off, I have a college education, I have a nice apartment, food in my fridge, I max out my 401k and my IRA contributions every year, and I have a satisfying savings account with 14 months salary in it.

But I live like a fraking KING on it. I lived in NYC on $12/hour, I lived in Chicago on $10/hour, I delivered pizzas in college, so I get the higher price of living in some cities, but come on, the whole notion that people making twice as much as me aren't rich is just stupid.

If you buy a $400,000 house and two new car payments and send your kids to private school and barely make ends meet on a $200k salary, well, you're not poor, you're not well off, you're financially retarded.

I grew up in a family of 6 in a 4 bedroom $150k house on the east side of Cleveland and we lived very nicely for WAY LESS than $200k a year. Either people's expectations of living are farked, or people think that a $400k home that you buy every 5 years is somehow normal or secure.

If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want. If you choose to have 6 kids and send them all to private school and have two new cars in the garage and a McMansion in NoVA, well, sorry, you're just stupid, not poor. Stop defending the fact that you make more than 98% of people in the US and still struggle to make ends meet. That's your own damn fault, not Obamas.

/end rant ...
 
2012-08-30 01:01:25 PM  
She thinks that lowering the minimum wage would make employers hire more people. The big limitation on the number of people an employer hires, however, is whether there is a market for the employer's products. The problem isn't an unmet demand for products that companies can't afford to produce; it's a lack of demand for the products they already produce, basically because the economy is in the shiatter and people can't afford to buy their stuff. Paying people less money to produce the same amount of stuff won't increase that market; it will decrease it because fewer people can now afford to buy the relevant stuff.

Of course, this is only true if your market and your employees are essentially the same. if you're producing things to sell in another country, it doesn't matter if the people who work for you can afford to buy the products they're making or not (see: China). It seems like this individual wants to move Australia into the third world.
 
2012-08-30 01:03:05 PM  
Yep. Reducing the minimum wage, or as we do it, not increasing it, has done wonders for our economy! The wheels of commerce do not spin when people have no money to spend. Perfect logic.
 
2012-08-30 01:03:31 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.


$10 is a shiat-ton of money?
 
2012-08-30 01:03:44 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.


So you're the Nigerian Prince?!
 
2012-08-30 01:03:58 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

Dynastic wealth has no place in a democracy.

In any event, go ahead and give it to him. He gets taxed on his new income. Sounds fair to me.

Asset confiscation has no place in a democracy either.

It has been part of ours since its founding.

But yeah I'm okay with treating inheritances as income, quite honestly. Not so much just to take from the rich, but because we need revenue.

Okay to do it to all inheritances I assume? You inherit your folks' $150k house that's taxable income to you for that year, ok?After all, if it's income to a rich deadbeat son it would be income to you, no?

Yes. Thankfully though, rich people pay our politicians to raise the ceiling on what is untaxable. Since I come from no money, it's nothing I'll ever need to care about.


"rich people" pay to raise the limit on what is taxable, instead of I don't know paying to put a cap on inheritance taxes? You can't really be stupid enough to believe that.
 
2012-08-30 01:06:45 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.

$10 is a shiat-ton of money?


But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!
 
kgf
2012-08-30 01:06:49 PM  
If you're jealous of those with more money, don't just sit there and complain; do something to make more money yourself - spend less time drinking, or smoking and socialising, and more time working

This is the basic underlying premise of the American Lie. The truth is hard work alone will not make most people wealthy. It takes extraordinary luck and connections. For every poor-guy-made-it-big story there are 100,000 poor-guy-is-still-poor stories.
 
2012-08-30 01:07:52 PM  

BgJonson79: signaljammer: Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.

What you're saying, then, is that his parents aren't idiots. Weird how that works out. Smart kids have smart parents.


He sold MS-DOS to IBM before he owned MS-DOS. He had "connections."
 
2012-08-30 01:08:47 PM  

Heron: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

Because an organization is necessarily a group effort. Why do you get to claim ownership? Because you put down the start-up capital? Did you construct your factories, build all your production, organize the work, oversee it, handle all the sales and advertising? Those people clocking in everyday to ensure your business remains productive and successful have as much, if not a more, of a claim to owning their collective activity than you, the money-man. You don't "own" a corporation any more than you own the employees who do all the work. A corporation employs, produces goods, pays taxes; it is a social entity and as such a more democratic form of management and "ownership" which takes these other concerned parties into consideration is not only morally fairer but also more efficient, as Germany and Japan's heavily unionized and consistently robust manufacturing sectors prove.


Laughable nonsense. I paid all those people to build the factories. They were compensated at a mutually agreeable wage and have no claim to any ownership in the company.

If you pay a contractor to build an addition to your home, do he and all his employees have the right to say they own part of your house? You didn't build it, they did. You just paid for their labor to build it.
 
2012-08-30 01:09:01 PM  

kgf: If you're jealous of those with more money, don't just sit there and complain; do something to make more money yourself - spend less time drinking, or smoking and socialising, and more time working

This is the basic underlying premise of the American Lie. The truth is hard work alone will not make most people wealthy. It takes extraordinary luck and connections. For every poor-guy-made-it-big story there are 100,000 poor-guy-is-still-poor stories.


Because most people don't have the talents and ability necessary. It sucks, but it's true.
 
2012-08-30 01:09:51 PM  

impaler: BgJonson79: signaljammer: Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.

What you're saying, then, is that his parents aren't idiots. Weird how that works out. Smart kids have smart parents.

He sold MS-DOS to IBM before he owned MS-DOS. He had "connections."


How many stupid parents have good connections? Or stupid kids?
 
2012-08-30 01:09:58 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.


Brain harder. Jesus farking christ.

If you start with a $10 million inheritance at birth and do nothing other than put it in a savings account with 5% interest, by the time you're 30, it will be worth four times as much.

If you put it in the market during the 70s-90s, it would be still more.

If you happened to inherit a mining empire and put the money back into mining, like the ogre from TFA, it would be still more.
 
2012-08-30 01:10:23 PM  

Martian_Astronomer: I have a fantasy in which people are not allowed to graduate high school until they can give a dumbed-down, plain-English explanation of the word "stochastic." People seem very uncomfortable with the idea that although you can skew the odds in your favor, there are just some things in life that are out of your control (or effectively random.)

There is a big difference between "Hard work makes you rich" and "Hard work makes you more likely to get rich."


I wish there was a way to stamp that on some people's brains. Maybe that will be my billion dollar idea?
 
2012-08-30 01:10:43 PM  

Loadmaster: Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.


Also exercise it good, as well as eating healthy.

Other good things include kittens, puppies and rainbows.

Now if she has something to say that people don't already know...
 
2012-08-30 01:11:52 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.

Brain harder. Jesus farking christ.

If you start with a $10 million inheritance at birth and do nothing other than put it in a savings account with 5% interest, by the time you're 30, it will be worth four times as much.

If you put it in the market during the 70s-90s, it would be still more.

If you happened to inherit a mining empire and put the money back into mining, like the ogre from TFA, it would be still more.


So, let's say the interest alone makes it worth 20x as much. Isn't that three orders of magnitude LESS than what she turned her investment into?
 
2012-08-30 01:11:54 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.

$10 is a shiat-ton of money?

But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!


Ever heard the saying "You've gotta have money to make money"?

Not technically true of course, but it's an lot easier to make a lot of money into more than make a lot out of a little.

And we're not talking about percentages (at least I never was). I'm talking about making a lot of money into more money.
 
2012-08-30 01:12:56 PM  

impaler: Loadmaster: Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

Also exercise it good, as well as eating healthy.

Other good things include kittens, puppies and rainbows.

Now if she has something to say that people don't already know...


Someone with bad genes who exercises a lot will still live less than someone with good genes who doesn't. Some (most) people just lose the genetic (smarts) lottery.
 
2012-08-30 01:13:17 PM  
Must be a Dutch billionaire--he's got enough red herring there to supply the international market.

Although class warfare is often framed by the haves and their evil minions, the conservatives, as a matter of "envy", "jealousy", "laziness", innate stupidity, etc., these ad hominem arguments are feeble.

I don't like the rich, but I love their stuff. I worry that perhaps there would be none of this stuff if there were no rich. That would be a pity because the rich do seem to fill a niche, namely the early adopters of expensive new technology, ideas, lifestyles,e tc.

At least partly, the rich are a Good Thing and I can't deny they play a role in the ecology, just as that mountain lion that ate your precious snowflake last week plays an important role in another ecology.

But do not confuse envy or fear or hatred with a reasoned political, economic, cultural, social and religious animus against the rich.

It is one thing to say that there would be little or no great art if rich patrons, whether individual, family, religious or state, did not exist to sponsor them by paying the poor starving (or well-off, comfortable) artists enough to buy materials and eat while spending ten years on a single painting. It is another to say that anything goes and that we should leave leadership in all things to the rich.

Recently an asinine mole and his operator on the SCOTUS destroyed the United States Constitution, liberal democracy and a number of other cherished institutions with a few strokes of a pen. I won't mention any names but one of the felons rhymes with Barence Bowmass and the other has a name that reminds one of LaScalia in Milan.

Giving money the vote is the worst thing you can do to a democracy. Even slavery or a limited suffrage are small potatoes to unleashing oligarchy so that a handful of billionaires can subvert the Constitution and all political powers and decision-making with buckets and pallets of money.

You either have a democracy or an oligarchy. You now have an oligarchy. Democracy may not work all that great, but it is the very best of a very bad lot. Government by the rich is pretty much the worst seeing as it is pretty much all of the other forms of government: aristocracy, oligarchy, monarcny, tyranny, fascism, etc.

You can not fob me off with "oh, people who criticize the oligarchy are just jealous". Even a saint must be horrified by Government of the Rich, by the Rich and for the Rich. In fact, a saint must be MORE horrified than even the most envious person on Earth.

I do not love the rich, but I love their stuff. But this is not the issue. The issue is what kind of government we will have, and thus what kind of freedoms, people, lives, world.

JUST SAY NO TO OLIGARCHY. Say yes to one person, one vote.

Personally I think that the very rich should not be allowed to spend any money buying politicians, laws and government to suit themselves. There should be a cap on personal donations and no corporate donations. This is, in fact, what the Liberals put in place at the Federal level in Canada, much to their own cost, seeing as they were getting more money from the rich than even the Conservatives, who despite being illiberal and anti-democratic at every turn, do get most of their donations in relatively small dollops from farmers, business people and professionals--the middle classes proper.

Liberalism, democracy, equity, peace, order, good government--these are all traditional middle class and Canadian values which I cherish. And Americans have mostly cherished them also, albeit to a lesser extent because all the power and money is in the hands of the top 20% and the rest can go fark themselves.

In Canada, the top 20% mostly believe that the other 80% need our compassion, assistance and respect just as much or more than the rich. Even quite conservative people at least pay lip service to the idea that government and taxation are just fine if they are working to a good purpose. Most of the top 20% say they don't mind paying taxes, although they may be mealy-mouthed lying SOBs for all that.

At various times Canada and the US seem to lap each other in the race to the top (or the bottom) of the democratic, liberal, free, and happy leagues.

The Citizens United decision was the worst political decision in the history of America and possibly the world. The SOBs responsible (Barence Bowmass and LaScalia of Milan) should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on an electrified rail, sharpened to a very fine stainless steel edge.

But that doesn't mean that I am jealous of Donald Trump's truly grotesque Philistine taste in gold-plated ceilings or wish I had both salt and fresh water infinity pools all the way from the Pacific beach to the Atlantic shore. I might very well be envious, jealous, hateful, or what not, but that has nothing to do with my main animus against the rich, which is that the feckers are not to be trusted and are natural-born enemies of everything I value and esteem, including the things I can not have, or do, or be.
 
2012-08-30 01:14:01 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

So you're the Nigerian Prince?!


Sure. Send me a bunch of money and I'll be whatever you want, baby.

/not gay, but money is money
 
2012-08-30 01:14:18 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.

$10 is a shiat-ton of money?

But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!

Ever heard the saying "You've gotta have money to make money"?

Not technically true of course, but it's an lot easier to make a lot of money into more than make a lot out of a little.

And we're not talking about percentages (at least I never was). I'm talking about making a lot of money into more money.


Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me. Like a developing economy's GDP percent increase is always more than the US because they're starting with so much less.
 
2012-08-30 01:16:05 PM  

BgJonson79: So, let's say the interest alone makes it worth 20x as much. Isn't that three orders of magnitude LESS than what she turned her investment into?


What is your evidence that she did anything other than sit on her share of the empire she inherited and just let her accountants roll any interest/dividends/profits back over?

What is your evidence that she did anything herself, that required either intelligence, hard work, or any other positive attribute other than her birth, that her increase in wealth came from something other than the increase in value in the empire she inherited due to external forces?
 
2012-08-30 01:16:58 PM  
img339.imageshack.us
 
2012-08-30 01:17:36 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: So, let's say the interest alone makes it worth 20x as much. Isn't that three orders of magnitude LESS than what she turned her investment into?

What is your evidence that she did anything other than sit on her share of the empire she inherited and just let her accountants roll any interest/dividends/profits back over?

What is your evidence that she did anything herself, that required either intelligence, hard work, or any other positive attribute other than her birth, that her increase in wealth came from something other than the increase in value in the empire she inherited due to external forces?


Because she made 20,000x more money than what she started off with. If I could turn $10 into $200k I would, and I bet you would too ;-) (If I'm putting words into your mouth, I apologize.)

How many stupid, lazy people can get a 20,000x ROI?
 
2012-08-30 01:18:17 PM  
Or arm yourself to the teeth and take it from billionaires.
 
2012-08-30 01:18:22 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

So you're the Nigerian Prince?!

Sure. Send me a bunch of money and I'll be whatever you want, baby.

/not gay, but money is money


Like I've always said, I'm a whore, I just not a cheap whore
 
2012-08-30 01:18:37 PM  
Where are there so many posts? This thread was done in one.
 
2012-08-30 01:19:38 PM  

BgJonson79: Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me.


OK. When I talk about a lot of money, I usually mean a lot of money, because that's the only way that makes logical sense to me.
 
2012-08-30 01:23:44 PM  

Jon Snow: If you happened to inherit a mining empire and put the money back into mining, like the ogre from TFA, it would be still more.


Wow.

I assumed she at least made a new business out of her inheritance. Nope. She just got the inheritance and took over the same business.
 
2012-08-30 01:25:01 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me.

OK. When I talk about a lot of money, I usually mean a lot of money, because that's the only way that makes logical sense to me.


So if I sent you $1 million, you could get me $20 billion?
 
2012-08-30 01:25:42 PM  

BgJonson79: Jon Snow: BgJonson79: So, let's say the interest alone makes it worth 20x as much. Isn't that three orders of magnitude LESS than what she turned her investment into?

What is your evidence that she did anything other than sit on her share of the empire she inherited and just let her accountants roll any interest/dividends/profits back over?

What is your evidence that she did anything herself, that required either intelligence, hard work, or any other positive attribute other than her birth, that her increase in wealth came from something other than the increase in value in the empire she inherited due to external forces?

Because she made 20,000x more money than what she started off with. If I could turn $10 into $200k I would, and I bet you would too ;-) (If I'm putting words into your mouth, I apologize.)

How many stupid, lazy people can get a 20,000x ROI?


BTW, gratz on nailing Ygritte IRL, too :-D
 
2012-08-30 01:26:18 PM  
Here's my main problem: the middle class is disappearing.

Most people I know don't want to be rich - they want to make enough to be comfortable and have a good life. House, cars, vacation, and retirement savings are enough for just about everyone I know.

Because the wealthiest of the wealthy are allowed to continually rewrite the financial rules to keep gathering unto themselves, wealth disparity is increasing. If we're not careful, we'll get to the point where you either have everything, or you have nothing.
 
2012-08-30 01:27:09 PM  

Lionel Mandrake:
Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.


Thats a pretty easy claim to make since you know no-one is actually going to do it.

However, all things considered you probably wouldn't. Even if you are not one of those idiots who blow 20 million dollar lottery wins in 2 years and end up in a cardboard box, chances are you do not actually have the specific financial skills and knowledge to significantly increase your wealth were you given 20 mil. Banking it and living off the interest is smart and safe, but not going to turn it into billions.

Gina studied economics at university and spent a decade learning the mining business from her father. A potent combination you probably dont have a match for.

But lets say you are actually an astute economicist (who doesn't have any money yet) what is your foolproof plan for turning that 20 million into 20 billion that every other sucker with 20 mil hasn't/wouldn't/can't think of and do themselves?
 
2012-08-30 01:27:48 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me.

OK. When I talk about a lot of money, I usually mean a lot of money, because that's the only way that makes logical sense to me.

So if I sent you $1 million, you could get me $20 billion?


When did I ever claim any specific return? I said if I had a lot of money I could make it into more.

Quit asking questions about shiat I never said.
 
2012-08-30 01:28:07 PM  
Just get sterilized already. Maybe $300 for a vasectomy and the rest of your life with be relatively worry-free. You won't have to shell out the $1/2 million or so it takes to raise a kid through college, your life will be a lot less stressful, and you won't have the guilt of forcing a kid into an increasingly fascist society. And, by removing a future working drone from society, you're ultimately depriving the plutocrats of a source of income...
 
2012-08-30 01:30:17 PM  
Well, let's see. At $12.00 an hour, I'd only have to work 83,333,333 hours to become a billionaire. At 40 hours a week that's a mere 40,064 years on the job.
 
2012-08-30 01:32:07 PM  

Greymalkin: But lets say you are actually an astute economicist (who doesn't have any money yet) what is your foolproof plan for turning that 20 million into 20 billion that every other sucker with 20 mil hasn't/wouldn't/can't think of and do themselves?


Please see my earlier response to the other guy that's asking me about things I never said.
 
2012-08-30 01:32:23 PM  

Psycat: Just get sterilized already. Maybe $300 for a vasectomy and the rest of your life with be relatively worry-free. You won't have to shell out the $1/2 million or so it takes to raise a kid through college, your life will be a lot less stressful, and you won't have the guilt of forcing a kid into an increasingly fascist society. And, by removing a future working drone from society, you're ultimately depriving the plutocrats of a source of income...


Not sure where you think $300 vasectomy's come from, but go right ahead and go for that shiat. I'm sure it'll turn out great!
 
2012-08-30 01:33:41 PM  

plcow: The only thing that is assured is that if you play on Fark, or Skyrim, or get high all day is that you will NEVER become wealthy.


That, and that you'll be penniless farking worm food in 70 years.
 
2012-08-30 01:33:55 PM  
If this biatch had never been born there would be no difference to the outcome of her industry.
 
2012-08-30 01:36:14 PM  

BgJonson79: Because she made 20,000x more money than what she started off with


How much did she start off with? Where are you getting this number?

She received, as part of a trust, a share of a mining empire. The empire's value doubled in the last year alone, due to completely external reasons. Her current wealth includes all of the money that should (by terms of the trust) have passed on to her children, but she is fighting them in court to prevent them from receiving their share, which was between a quarter and a fifth of "her" overall worth prior to the aforementioned doubling.

You're talking out of your ass. You have zero evidence that she did anything other than inherit a fortune. Except perhaps that she's also a greedy beast who won't allow her children the same access to the family trust that got her rich in the first place.
 
2012-08-30 01:36:33 PM  

Greymalkin: But lets say you are actually an astute economicist (who doesn't have any money yet) what is your foolproof plan for turning that 20 million into 20 billion that every other sucker with 20 mil hasn't/wouldn't/can't think of and do themselves?


I would inherit a mining company in Australia in the 90s, immediately prior to a mining boom there in the 2000s.
 
2012-08-30 01:38:04 PM  

impaler: I would inherit a mining company in Australia in the 90s, immediately prior to a mining boom there in the 2000s.


And refuse to give your children their share of the family trust.
 
2012-08-30 01:38:30 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me.

OK. When I talk about a lot of money, I usually mean a lot of money, because that's the only way that makes logical sense to me.

So if I sent you $1 million, you could get me $20 billion?

When did I ever claim any specific return? I said if I had a lot of money I could make it into more.

Quit asking questions about shiat I never said.


But unless you're claiming the same ROI or greater as the focus of the article, the claim isn't as directly comparative.
 
2012-08-30 01:39:18 PM  

brantgoose: You either have a democracy or an oligarchy. You now have an oligarchy. Democracy may not work all that great, but it is the very best of a very bad lot. Government by the rich is pretty much the worst seeing as it is pretty much all of the other forms of government: aristocracy, oligarchy, monarcny, tyranny, fascism, etc.

You can not fob me off with "oh, people who criticize the oligarchy are just jealous". Even a saint must be horrified by Government of the Rich, by the Rich and for the Rich. In fact, a saint must be MORE horrified than even the most envious person on Earth.


While I agree with you in principle I think you're sorely mistaken on the historical context of the United States. Nothing changed in recent Supreme Court rulings. Unfortunately the world doesn't work like it did in the fairy tale social studies class you took in Elementary School. The fact of the matter is that rich white men have pretty much owned and run this country from the start. There's a few token people tossed in from time to time to sooth the masses, but it's always been run for and by the rich white elite.
 
2012-08-30 01:40:22 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Greymalkin: But lets say you are actually an astute economicist (who doesn't have any money yet) what is your foolproof plan for turning that 20 million into 20 billion that every other sucker with 20 mil hasn't/wouldn't/can't think of and do themselves?

Please see my earlier response to the other guy that's asking me about things I never said.


Ah I see, you are just talking out of your arse then. Your statement might as well have said "give me any amount of money and I can make more".

I take back my earlier comment. I now think you are actually one of those idiots who would blow a 20 million dollar lotto win and end up in a cardboard box.
 
2012-08-30 01:40:45 PM  

seadoo2006: If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want. If you choose to have 6 kids and send them all to private school and have two new cars in the garage and a McMansion in NoVA, well, sorry, you're just stupid, not poor. Stop defending the fact that you make more than 98% of people in the US and still struggle to make ends meet. That's your own damn fault, not Obamas.

/end rant ...


So true, but on the other hand I also hate it when people who make like $100k/yr lump themselves in with the super rich people and try to claim that others are 'poor' because they deserve it or something. I am not sure where they get off defending the super-super-super rich. In my eyes, there are:

-people who do not make enough to pay for a place to live, food, or health care costs. these people need help.
-people who make enough.
-people who make more than enough. (you)
-people who make more than the rest of us could ever dream of.
 
2012-08-30 01:41:32 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: Because she made 20,000x more money than what she started off with

How much did she start off with? Where are you getting this number?

She received, as part of a trust, a share of a mining empire. The empire's value doubled in the last year alone, due to completely external reasons. Her current wealth includes all of the money that should (by terms of the trust) have passed on to her children, but she is fighting them in court to prevent them from receiving their share, which was between a quarter and a fifth of "her" overall worth prior to the aforementioned doubling.

You're talking out of your ass. You have zero evidence that she did anything other than inherit a fortune. Except perhaps that she's also a greedy beast who won't allow her children the same access to the family trust that got her rich in the first place.


From the article: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion.

I stand by my claim that it's not easy to get a 20,000x ROI. If you think it's easy, please show me the way so I can go do it :-D
 
2012-08-30 01:41:46 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Oh, I usually work with percentages when doing that kind of comparison because it's the only one that makes logical sense to me.

OK. When I talk about a lot of money, I usually mean a lot of money, because that's the only way that makes logical sense to me.

So if I sent you $1 million, you could get me $20 billion?

When did I ever claim any specific return? I said if I had a lot of money I could make it into more.

Quit asking questions about shiat I never said.


There are business loans. A close friend of mine used student loans to become a chartered accountant here in Canada. He then borrowed money to buy into a partnership of a local company. He now runs one of Canada's larger furniture suppliers to businesses and is very wealthy. He really did start with almost nothing.

Another good friend of mine got an engineering degree and after a lot of ups and downs with various companies that he started (one losing millions for his investors), he now runs a very profitable software development company.

Both of those guys started with nothing. I don't know how old you are, but these guys were rich in 15 years. I'm 37, so I should be living on my Italian villa by around age 50 if I get started.

I actually think it's really hard to do. I know both of these guys are extremely smart and worked insanely hard. One big difference is that they went out and did it. They didn't talk about it, they just did it.

I don't know if this adds to any argument or not.
 
2012-08-30 01:42:02 PM  
About the biggest news story that the corporate-owned media is ignoring is the humongous drop in birthrates in the industrialized world. Russia is shrinking rapidly due to the high abortion rates and the huge amount of Russian men drinking themselves to death at an early age. Spain and Germany have fertility rates of about 1.5 children per woman and it's much lower in places like South Korea or Singapore. Even in America, the fertility rate is now about 2.07, slightly below replacement rate, even with immigrants with high birth rates. And this, folks, is BEFORE the inevitable economic crash that will come as a result of a national debt well over 10 trillion and idiot investors throwing billions at facebook. Even before the crash, we have millions of kids fresh out of college trying to pay off huge student loans on $10/hour jobs; I doubt it would take much more provocation to get them to renounce kids forever.

There are a few Internet articles about the huge numbers of people renouncing parenthood, mostly the usual alarmist crap from the usual paleo-conservatives who are upset that the labor pool of the desperately poor is shrinking. I think that Big Media is avoiding the story because once We Little People (TM) realize that dropping out of the gene pool is the only thing that puts the fear of God into the fat-cat plutocrats, a lot of my generation is going to run pell-mell to the nearest Planned Parenthood clinic and get a snip job...
 
2012-08-30 01:43:22 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: The poor people I know have 2 or 3 jobs.

Pick any laborer off of the street and they know more about hard work than this woman.


MOTHERFARKING THIS.

You know where people learn a real work ethic, biatch? When they're pregnant, seventeen, and Mom and Dad stopped fighting long enough to let them know they're getting kicked out next week when they turn eighteen.

And that never stops. If you don't get the chance to go to college, you end up the working poor. And that's your life. Don't you dare spit on it, because people just like you helped create it.
 
2012-08-30 01:44:15 PM  
And the fastest rowers in the wells of Ben Hur sailing vessels get to be captain someday.
 
2012-08-30 01:44:49 PM  

Alphakronik: Psycat: Just get sterilized already. Maybe $300 for a vasectomy and the rest of your life with be relatively worry-free. You won't have to shell out the $1/2 million or so it takes to raise a kid through college, your life will be a lot less stressful, and you won't have the guilt of forcing a kid into an increasingly fascist society. And, by removing a future working drone from society, you're ultimately depriving the plutocrats of a source of income...

Not sure where you think $300 vasectomy's come from, but go right ahead and go for that shiat. I'm sure it'll turn out great!


Actually, my vasectomy cost me only $225, but I got snipped right out of college back in 1987. And, yes, it turned out great knowing that I can fark like a crazed weasel and never have to worry about bringing a kid into the world...
 
2012-08-30 01:45:54 PM  

BgJonson79: From the article: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion.


Her inheritance was a percentage of a mining empire. It doesn't specify a number. Multi-million could mean $2m, or it could mean $999m. Where are you getting "a 20,000x ROI"?

Regardless, what is your evidence that the increase in her wealth was due to anything other than the increase value of the mining empire due to external demand for metals and coal that she was handed at birth? We already know unequivocally that her fortune doubled in the last year alone due to nothing other than external forces.
 
2012-08-30 01:46:21 PM  

vudukungfu: The nicest millionaires I know don't talk much at all. You wouldn't know they are loaded, either. They don't roll the poor.


If you read "The Millionaire Next Door", the most common millionaire is a small business owner who drives a pickup truck and lives in a modest home.

I drive an SUV and live in a nice house, however. Never owned a small business either, but money falls out of everything I touch. Which was a little weird when my wife and I had our first date...
 
2012-08-30 01:50:24 PM  

Greymalkin: Lionel Mandrake: Greymalkin: But lets say you are actually an astute economicist (who doesn't have any money yet) what is your foolproof plan for turning that 20 million into 20 billion that every other sucker with 20 mil hasn't/wouldn't/can't think of and do themselves?

Please see my earlier response to the other guy that's asking me about things I never said.

Ah I see, you are just talking out of your arse then. Your statement might as well have said "give me any amount of money and I can make more".

I take back my earlier comment. I now think you are actually one of those idiots who would blow a 20 million dollar lotto win and end up in a cardboard box.


WTF? My statement said what it said, not what you want it to have said.
 
2012-08-30 01:51:43 PM  
The problem here is that CEOs that make over 100x the average salary of their company actually think they are working over 100x as hard as the average worker.

I have never heard a CEO say that.
 
2012-08-30 01:52:15 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: ***snip***
But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!


Give me $2 million to purchase a mine that is loaded with a finite resource that is essential to the world economy, and I guarantee I will get a 20,000x ROI.

If she had taken that money and spent it on an empty mine, she would likely not have such a tall platform from which to preach to others about the virtues of hard work.
 
2012-08-30 01:55:11 PM  

roc6783: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: ***snip***
But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!

Give me $2 million to purchase a mine that is loaded with a finite resource that is essential to the world economy, and I guarantee I will get a 20,000x ROI.

If she had taken that money and spent it on an empty mine, she would likely not have such a tall platform from which to preach to others about the virtues of hard work.


Send me the contract ;-)
 
2012-08-30 02:06:10 PM  
FTFA:Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Let me translate Marie Antoinette here into layman's terms: "Stop complaining about shiatty wages, shiatt hours, and shiatty mining conditions. STFU, GBTW, do as you're told, and maybe someday you'll be as rich as me."
 
2012-08-30 02:06:24 PM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Aquaponics. Combining Fish Farming (Aquaculture) with Hydroponics (artificial/mechanically assisted irrigated grow beds). Not many people make a *fortune* from doing this, but enough people can make their living based off of it.

Specifically, you grow Tilapia for meat, and smaller veggies/herbs. You have the water cycling through the fish grow tank and the vegetable racewayways(or however you wish to set it up), which helps simulate the natural nitrogen cycle. This A) Helps give nutrients to the plants from the fish waste, and B) Helps clean the water from the fish waste. Further, certain setups can allow the fish to nibble on the roots of whatever plants you have in the fish growout tanks.

Tilapia will eat just about anything, but need a bit of a variet diet. This can be grown on-site. Duckweed is often considered to be the bane of people who run fish tanks, but can be fed to Tilapia as a good portion of their diet. It's easy to grow, and is a fairly high-density food - and you can feed it to other fish. Tilapia also spawn thousands of fry - they're k-strategists, they spawn hundreds/thousands of little guys in the hopes that like 10 of them surive to adulthood. In the wild, that's about the right survival percentage, but in controlled conditions, you can get 90% or more of the fry to adulthood (1 to 2 lbs).

In terms of meat efficiency, Tilapia weight is equal to the weight of food they consume, a nearly 1:1 ratio. Chickens/Poultry, on the other hand, are nearly a 2lbs of food to 1lb of meat ratio, and that's among the best of traditionally-grown meat animals.

And depending on your setup, a good aquaponics system can be a minimal-grid technology - all it needs is some way to get the water from the bottom of the system to the top mechancially, and there's a shiatton of optios from that from water fountain pumps to just buckets on a chain.

Further, if you want to go indoors and *stack* the systems, you begin to see the great advantages aquaponics has. In traditional agriculture, you are limited to one z-level. Volume doesn't come into play, it's all area. In Aquaponics, you can stack the systems. Just a rough guestimating from my figures, you could fill a standard warehouse with 3 levels of system. Of course in this case you'd have to use artificial lighting and a more robust water pumpt system, but the lighting can be provided via low-energy LED grow lights.

Using a system similar to this, Popular Science (back in like... 2008?) had an article where a tower using these technologies could be built, would be minimal grid, and could feed a quarter of the population of New York City. What I'm proposing is a TINY version of that.

Now, I don't expect the 500 since I"m still in the research phase, but do keep this sort of thing in mind, if not to fund me, than to fund it SOMEWHERE!

/I'd name it Project Erdos.
 
2012-08-30 02:06:42 PM  
It metal prices fall, and she loses billions, she we tell her to just work harder?

growlersoftware.com
 
2012-08-30 02:07:20 PM  

seadoo2006:

If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.


$200K a year in the US is not enough money to do anything you want. And living in a major city makes it even less so.
 
2012-08-30 02:08:09 PM  

impaler: she we tell her



should

we tell her, rather.
 
2012-08-30 02:10:04 PM  

impaler: It metal prices fall, and she loses billions, she we tell her to just work harder?


Well, this is Australia, so I don't know how often they hand out free government bailouts.
 
2012-08-30 02:12:13 PM  
Drink and smoke less and work more? She needs to eat less and realize that trolling the rest of the 99% of the population AND being a billionaire still won't change the fact that she uglier than Jaba the Hut.
 
2012-08-30 02:12:59 PM  

Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,


Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.
 
2012-08-30 02:13:09 PM  

dittybopper: distaffbopper


So...is this a term you invented?
 
2012-08-30 02:14:28 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: "rich people" pay to raise the limit on what is taxable, instead of I don't know paying to put a cap on inheritance taxes? You can't really be stupid enough to believe that.


I probably worded it wrong, but you get what I'm saying. Their caps means I'm never touched.

Though I did have to pay tax on the 3k my dad had left in his retirement account when he passed. I couldn't find a way out of it and can't hire a lawyer, so it is what it is.
 
2012-08-30 02:15:39 PM  
If hard work and long hours made one a financial success then migrant farmworkers would be the richest people in the world.
 
2012-08-30 02:16:19 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: From the article: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion.

Her inheritance was a percentage of a mining empire. It doesn't specify a number. Multi-million could mean $2m, or it could mean $999m. Where are you getting "a 20,000x ROI"?

Regardless, what is your evidence that the increase in her wealth was due to anything other than the increase value of the mining empire due to external demand for metals and coal that she was handed at birth? We already know unequivocally that her fortune doubled in the last year alone due to nothing other than external forces.


I'll admit I'm assuming, but multi-millions in the media usually means > $2 million and
Also, when it comes to pure evidence, I'll admit to more assumption. However, I'm going to go with "innocent before proven guilty" as working is viewed as innocent as inheriting is "guilty."

Anyway, it's unlikely we're gonna convince the other of our points so I'll call it an afternoon. Have a good one, and have fun nailing Ygritte IRL, too :-D
 
2012-08-30 02:17:15 PM  

manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.


Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.
 
2012-08-30 02:17:50 PM  
If everyone were rich, everyone would be poor.
 
2012-08-30 02:19:41 PM  

Three-Fifty: If she really wanted to be a job creator, she should hire someone to bathe her, comb her hair and put on some makeup bring her to your chambers.


ftfy
 
2012-08-30 02:20:24 PM  

T.M.S.: seadoo2006:

If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.

$200K a year in the US is not enough money to do anything you want. And living in a major city makes it even less so.


That's just bullshiat. 200k in Manhattan is crushing it. You've got no worries on that level.
 
2012-08-30 02:22:03 PM  

BgJonson79: manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.

Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.


lolwut?

t0.gstatic.com

sorry...too easy
 
2012-08-30 02:23:26 PM  

Infernalist: If the French Revolution comes back into fashion, I'll be at the front of the thronging mob that heads into her ivory tower to drag her bloated, selfish fat ass down to the street to be pelted with trash and small blunt objects before being beheaded on live CNN.


I'll be right behind you!
 
2012-08-30 02:23:31 PM  

stevetherobot: fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.

Instead of blowing $500 why don't you just quit smoking, drinking and socializing?


Not buying things? That would hurt the economy. Doesn't matter that a large chunk of our economy relies 100% on people making bad choices. It's perfect. Companies get rich, AND they get to look down on their customers as scum.
 
2012-08-30 02:24:26 PM  
i.imgur.com


t3.gstatic.com
 
2012-08-30 02:25:13 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.

Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.

lolwut?

[t0.gstatic.com image 194x260]

sorry...too easy


He went to Yale :-P
 
2012-08-30 02:28:36 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.


Here's the problem. If you are handed millions you have money and time to invest and work on growing your fortune.

If you are a single parent working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet you are lucky if, by the end of the month, you can pay your bills. There is no "working harder" once you are already working 2-3 jobs and raising a kid. There are only so many hours in a day.

I have several friends who have kids and work multiple HARD jobs like waitress, bartender, etc. They get up early, work all day, and if they are lucky get to spend an hour or two with their kids before collapsing from exhaustion to start again tomorrow.

The fat pig can can go fark herself.
 
2012-08-30 02:30:11 PM  

Ghastly: If hard work and long hours made one a financial success then migrant farmworkers would be the richest people in the world.


0/10, heard that specious argument too many times to bother pointing out the fallacy any more
 
2012-08-30 02:32:17 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.

Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.

lolwut?

[t0.gstatic.com image 194x260]

sorry...too easy

He went to Yale :-P


He went to both. MBA at Harvard
 
2012-08-30 02:33:47 PM  

BgJonson79: Anyway, it's unlikely we're gonna convince the other of our points so I'll call it an afternoon.


As long as you acknowledge that this isn't an evidence-based debate, but rather something you want to be true, I agree, there's not much more to be said.

Cheers anyway, though. You're flamboyantly wrong, but at least you're not a prick about it. ;)

PS: Bush also went to Harvard.
 
2012-08-30 02:35:03 PM  

BgJonson79: Jon Snow: BgJonson79: Because she made 20,000x more money than what she started off with

How much did she start off with? Where are you getting this number?

She received, as part of a trust, a share of a mining empire. The empire's value doubled in the last year alone, due to completely external reasons. Her current wealth includes all of the money that should (by terms of the trust) have passed on to her children, but she is fighting them in court to prevent them from receiving their share, which was between a quarter and a fifth of "her" overall worth prior to the aforementioned doubling.

You're talking out of your ass. You have zero evidence that she did anything other than inherit a fortune. Except perhaps that she's also a greedy beast who won't allow her children the same access to the family trust that got her rich in the first place.

From the article: Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion.

I stand by my claim that it's not easy to get a 20,000x ROI. If you think it's easy, please show me the way so I can go do it :-D


Stand by your claim all you want, it's plainly obvious that it was a right place at the right time situation. Bill Gates would have likely been a success, but the reason he's one of the richest in the world is also a right place at the right time situation.
 
2012-08-30 02:38:20 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: Anyway, it's unlikely we're gonna convince the other of our points so I'll call it an afternoon.

As long as you acknowledge that this isn't an evidence-based debate, but rather something you want to be true, I agree, there's not much more to be said.

Cheers anyway, though. You're flamboyantly wrong, but at least you're not a prick about it. ;)

PS: Bush also went to Harvard.


Yeah, I forgot about his MBA from there. 0/2 today, but it's my Friday dammit!
 
2012-08-30 02:41:52 PM  

Summercat: Using a system similar to this, Popular Science (back in like... 2008?) had an article where a tower using these technologies could be built, would be minimal grid, and could feed a quarter of the population of New York City. What I'm proposing is a TINY version of that.

Now, I don't expect the 500 since I"m still in the research phase, but do keep this sort of thing in mind, if not to fund me, than to fund it SOMEWHERE!

/I'd name it Project Erdos.



Believe it or not, I had a great uncle who ran a secret aquaponics operation. He was a maintenance guy in a graveyard in rural Illinois. There was a pond in it where he raised catfish. The folks who owned the graveyard never knew about it, and legend has it that he made some decent scratch from it.

/Why yes, that IS a cool story, Bro.
 
2012-08-30 02:44:45 PM  

SpectroBoy: I have several friends who have kids and work multiple HARD jobs like waitress, bartender, etc


Sorry but no. You dont get to claim that being a waitress or a bartender is hard. I've worked with both, and that aint hard. Taring roofs, welding, or working a blast furnace now that hard. You know what else is hard? Worrying about making payroll, DOT compliance and dealing with workers comp. How that's hard. Someone being rude to you for forgetting the mustard? Doesn't match up.
 
2012-08-30 02:52:05 PM  
I personally know 4 millionaires.

Three of them are in their 80's and still work to this day. You can't tell them apart from an average joe (other than the fact that two of them own a jet and like to fly across the country as their 'hobby'). 

/cool story bro
 
2012-08-30 02:58:25 PM  

fireclown: Summercat: Using a system similar to this, Popular Science (back in like... 2008?) had an article where a tower using these technologies could be built, would be minimal grid, and could feed a quarter of the population of New York City. What I'm proposing is a TINY version of that.

Now, I don't expect the 500 since I"m still in the research phase, but do keep this sort of thing in mind, if not to fund me, than to fund it SOMEWHERE!

/I'd name it Project Erdos.


Believe it or not, I had a great uncle who ran a secret aquaponics operation. He was a maintenance guy in a graveyard in rural Illinois. There was a pond in it where he raised catfish. The folks who owned the graveyard never knew about it, and legend has it that he made some decent scratch from it.

/Why yes, that IS a cool story, Bro.


Definitely cool.

I guess zombies don't go for catfish brains
 
2012-08-30 03:15:50 PM  

TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.


Concur. Done in one. Plus, she's fat.
 
2012-08-30 03:16:15 PM  

kukukupo: I personally know 4 millionaires.

Three of them are in their 80's and still work to this day. You can't tell them apart from an average joe (other than the fact that two of them own a jet and like to fly across the country as their 'hobby'). 

/cool story bro


I know one... nice guy, hard working guy... but boring as fark. All he can talk about is his work. Nothing else, ever... it's all he does, all he knows... he's not very fun to hang out with.
 
2012-08-30 03:20:30 PM  
Loadmaster: Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

impaler: Also exercise it good, as well as eating healthy. Other good things include kittens, puppies and rainbows. Now if she has something to say that people don't already know...


The problem is that the bad behavior is much more acceptable than it was a generation ago. Being on food stamps, taking welfare, not having a job for years at a time used to be considered shameful and cause for being ostracized. There was a time, not too long ago, when people did not want to ask for hand-outs because of the stigma and loss of self-worth it brought. Not any more.
 
2012-08-30 03:20:44 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: You dont get to claim that being a waitress or a bartender is hard. I've worked with both, and that aint hard. Taring roofs, welding, or working a blast furnace now that hard.


Speaking as someone who (in my admittedly more physically fit youth) has tarred roofs in the dead of summer, worked throwing heavy boxes of merchandise into the back of trailers so hot you would burn your skin if you touched the walls, etc. as well as waited/tended bar:

You must have been doing the latter wrong. Sure, you may not sweat quite as much, or burn quite as many calories, but you also have to be charming as fark for hours at a stretch no matter how shiatty your day is, have to juggle more mentally, and generally put in a lot more non-physical effort.

When I was doing the "hard" work you seem to think is so self-evidently "harder", I burned through audiobooks by Rushdie, Vonnegut, Cortázar, et al. remarkably fast. You can't do that shiat in the service industry.

If you're waiting tables or bar tending and find it to be easy, you either suck at what you do, or are working at the tail ends of the distribution of money-making places. Not so different from more labor-intensive pursuits.

(Of course, it's all relative. There are times when throwing boxes into those trailers or picking up a double wait shift seem a lot more appealing than figuring out how I'm farking up my latest R script, too...)
 
2012-08-30 03:24:18 PM  
This glutton parlayed millions into billions by paying MINERS the least amount of money she could and now advocates paying them less because she thinks minimum wages are too high. Wow.

Do you know a lot of lazy miners? I don't.

Do you know any rich miners? Me either.
 
2012-08-30 03:28:12 PM  

Loadmaster: The problem is that the bad behavior is much more acceptable than it was a generation ago. Being on food stamps, taking welfare, not having a job for years at a time used to be considered shameful and cause for being ostracized. There was a time, not too long ago, when people did not want to ask for hand-outs because of the stigma and loss of self-worth it brought. Not any more.


Giant farking [citation needed].

Every culture thinks it has seen new depths of laziness and hedonism. I can read screeds like yours written in Latin.
 
2012-08-30 03:28:34 PM  
 
2012-08-30 03:29:19 PM  
WTF! Sorry about that.
 
2012-08-30 03:33:49 PM  

Loadmaster: The problem is that the bad behavior is much more acceptable than it was a generation ago.


I assume you're talking about CEOs earning 100s of times their employees, golden parachutes, vulture capitalism..

Loadmaster: Being on food stamps, taking welfare, not having a job for years at a time used to be considered shameful and cause for being ostracized. There was a time, not too long ago, when people did not want to ask for hand-outs because of the stigma and loss of self-worth it brought. Not any more.


Oh FFS. Do you know how I know you're just pulling shat out of your arse here? You have to work for welfare. It's been that way for nearly 20 years. Republican propagandists told you to think that. You can prove to them you are as gullible as they think you are by continuing to believe it.
 
2012-08-30 03:35:46 PM  
Coming in at the tail end so I'm sure I'll get no responses... but

My folks came from middle class families, but they started out poor. We were on food stamps, generic-brand food, government cheese, and hand me down clothes. They worked hard - one of them as a teacher with horrible pay - and they moved up to the middle class, maybe even the upper middle.

I started working doing landscaping around the age of 13, or hauling shingles, or shoveling, or mowing lawns. I haven't not had a job since I was 15. I have a decent work ethic, and I'm now comfortably in the middle class, due to the work I've done.

Hard work and frugal behavior isn't going to make you a multimillionaire. That requires luck and timing of actions you have no control over. It won't give you F-U money, where you can do whatever you want, and treat your credit card like a genie in a bottle. I think that's what people are getting caught up in.

What it will do is let you avoid saying "I can't afford a place to live" or as I had to deal with once, "I can't afford food for the third week in a row, and I'm dying," (which is a separate CSB). You might not be able to get all the things you ever wanted, but you'll be able to get some - or even many - of the things you wanted.

If you have realistic goals, you could even be content with that.
 
2012-08-30 03:36:11 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Ghastly: If hard work and long hours made one a financial success then migrant farmworkers would be the richest people in the world.

0/10, heard that specious argument too many times to bother pointing out the fallacy any more


Are you agreeing with him?
 
2012-08-30 03:37:42 PM  

BgJonson79: roc6783: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: ***snip***
But we're dealing with percentages here. Let's say she turned $2,000,000 into $20,000,000,000. That's a 20,000x increase. I don't care who you are and what you start off with, if you can get a 20,000x ROI, someone will invest a crapton of money with you!

Give me $2 million to purchase a mine that is loaded with a finite resource that is essential to the world economy, and I guarantee I will get a 20,000x ROI.

If she had taken that money and spent it on an empty mine, she would likely not have such a tall platform from which to preach to others about the virtues of hard work.

Send me the contract ;-)


The point that you are intentional ignoring is that there is no way to know that the mine is "loaded with a finite resource that is essential to the world economy" until after the fact, therefore, you are judging someone as worthwhile based on the fact that they took an educated guess and it worked out, while ignoring the thousands to millions of examples where it didn't.

Your judgement process and criteria is clearly flawed. Stop saying someone made good decisions JUST because it worked out. You can make a wrong decision and have it work out (guy who spilled a chemical on himself, tasted it, and viola artificial sweetener), or make a right decision and have it end badly (Hiroshima). Additionally, assuming this person did make good decisions for their situation, stop extrapolating that they can make good decisions for other people.
 
2012-08-30 03:43:07 PM  

quietwalker: Coming in at the tail end so I'm sure I'll get no responses... but

My folks came from middle class families, but they started out poor. We were on food stamps, generic-brand food, government cheese, and hand me down clothes. They worked hard - one of them as a teacher with horrible pay - and they moved up to the middle class, maybe even the upper middle.

I started working doing landscaping around the age of 13, or hauling shingles, or shoveling, or mowing lawns. I haven't not had a job since I was 15. I have a decent work ethic, and I'm now comfortably in the middle class, due to the work I've done.

Hard work and frugal behavior isn't going to make you a multimillionaire. That requires luck and timing of actions you have no control over. It won't give you F-U money, where you can do whatever you want, and treat your credit card like a genie in a bottle. I think that's what people are getting caught up in.

What it will do is let you avoid saying "I can't afford a place to live" or as I had to deal with once, "I can't afford food for the third week in a row, and I'm dying," (which is a separate CSB). You might not be able to get all the things you ever wanted, but you'll be able to get some - or even many - of the things you wanted.

If you have realistic goals, you could even be content with that.


Yep. That's pretty much what everyone generally agrees on, except the white nights for the woman who inherited a mining business that became wildly profitable when iron ore's prices skyrocketed 10X this past decade.
 
2012-08-30 03:46:11 PM  

Summercat: fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.

Aquaponics. Combining Fish Farming (Aquaculture) with Hydroponics (artificial/mechanically assisted irrigated grow beds). Not many people make a *fortune* from doing this, but enough people can make their living based off of it.

Specifically, you grow Tilapia for meat, and smaller veggies/herbs. You have the water cycling through the fish grow tank and the vegetable racewayways(or however you wish to set it up), which helps simulate the natural nitrogen cycle. This A) Helps give nutrients to the plants from the fish waste, and B) Helps clean the water from the fish waste. Further, certain setups can allow the fish to nibble on the roots of whatever plants you have in the fish growout tanks.

Tilapia will eat just about anything, but need a bit of a variet diet. This can be grown on-site. Duckweed is often considered to be the bane of people who run fish tanks, but can be fed to Tilapia as a good portion of their diet. It's easy to grow, and is a fairly high-density food - and you can feed it to other fish. Tilapia also spawn thousands of fry - they're k-strategists, they spawn hundreds/thousands of little guys in the hopes that like 10 of them surive to adulthood. In the wild, that's about the right survival percentage, but in controlled conditions, you can get 90% or more of the fry to adulthood (1 to 2 lbs).

In terms of meat efficiency, Tilapia weight is equal to the weight of food they consume, a nearly 1:1 ratio. Chickens/Poultry, on the other hand, are nearly a 2lbs of food to 1lb of meat ratio, and that's among the best of traditionally-grown meat animals.

And depending on your setup, a good aquaponics system can be a minimal-grid technology - all it needs is some way to get the water from the botto ...


This is excellent info, and could be used to make decent money if the crop grown was cannabis. Too bad tilapia tastes like crap :(
 
2012-08-30 03:47:21 PM  

roc6783: you are judging someone as worthwhile based on the fact that they took an educated guess and it worked out


Or in this case, made no guess (educated or otherwise) at all and was born into a fortune.

The accident of her birth is the only reason why she is wealthy. Full stop.
 
2012-08-30 03:49:44 PM  

cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)


Boglehead?
 
2012-08-30 03:51:42 PM  

roc6783: The point that you are intentional ignoring is that there is no way to know that the mine is "loaded with a finite resource that is essential to the world economy" until after the fact, therefore, you are judging someone as worthwhile based on the fact that they took an educated guess and it worked out, while ignoring the thousands to millions of examples where it didn't.

Your judgement process and criteria is clearly flawed. Stop saying someone made good decisions JUST because it worked out. You can make a wrong decision and have it work out, or make a right decision and have it end badly


People don't want to believe in chance.

By paying attention to the die Player A selected,
Player B could know exactly what A's intentions were.
(Just to be sure, we asked several questions to check
that Player B understood.) But then, depending on the
roll of a die, accidents could happen. Player A could
choose Die 1, the "stingy die", but end up with a
generous outcome. Conversely, she could chose Die 3,
the "generous die", but end up with a stingy outcome.
We gave Player B the chance to reward or punish
Player A by adding or subtracting money from Player
A's payoff. When accidents like these occurred, how
would Player B choose to reward or punish Player A?
By focusing on her intentions (the die she chose), or by
focusing on the outcome (the way the die came up)?

The results indicated a strong role for accidental
outcomes. When Player A chose the stingy die but it
came up generous, on average Player B responded by
rewarding. And, when Player A chose the generous die
but it came up stingy, on average Player B responded
by punishing. Statistical analysis showed that Player B
paid attention both to Player A's intentions, and also to
the outcome of the roll - but outcomes mattered just
slightly more.

Link
 
2012-08-30 03:53:14 PM  
I wonder if the world would be better or worse off if everybody were like me.

After working for my current company for 2.5 years (job entirely unrelated to what I went to school for. Had to claw my way up in the call center), I make 42k/yr, drive a 10 y/o VW bug that I own, Fark and reddit for a respectable portion of the day, live in a tiny apartment with my fiance and our cat, and in the evenings I tend to play video games, drink beer, hang out with friends, work out, and enjoy a healthy sex life. I put away about 200 per week as savings towards the down payment on the theoretical house that we plan to buy in the 130k range.

The thing is, I could not be happier. When I left grad school I started at $10/hr as a temp in a call center, and just daisy chained from one job to another to where I am now. And it wasn't that hard. Don't have the money? Don't spend it. Don't skip work. Find ways to enjoy yourself and find success on your own terms. I'd be exhausted from just all of the feeling superior to everyone else that this woman seems to do. Never mind running a mining business; seems like so much of a hassle. I'll always prefer this life.
 
2012-08-30 03:53:41 PM  

WhippingBoy: You'll never get rich by making excuses...


Rats! I had the market cornered and a new model ready to come out.
 
2012-08-30 03:55:54 PM  

Loadmaster: There was a time, not too long ago, when people did not want to ask for hand-outs because of the stigma and loss of self-worth it brought. Not any more.


You know what else was not too long ago?

i31.photobucket.comc1933542.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com24.media.tumblr.com 

...unless you really suck at history. In which case it never happened and can't ever happen
 
2012-08-30 03:57:30 PM  

dittybopper: It's true that as a group, the poor are much more likely to smoke, for example. In my state, you're looking at a minimum of $7 a pack. If you smoke a pack a day, that's $49 a week, or $208 a month. That's a car payment right there, going up in smoke. Over a year, that's nearly $2,500.


It's really annoying when someone spends an entire paragraph doing simple math for me. I just had to read while you multiplied 7... thanks for that. Also, I know how many days are in a week and how many weeks are in a year.

People should stop worrying about what other people choose to do with their own lives, especially strangers. If you want to smoke, then do it. If you want to drink alcohol, do it. (just don't drive or endanger others) We are all well aware of the consequences of smoking and drinking. Enjoy your life the way you want to and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

As far as the article goes: Not everyone wants to be wealthy. I'm happy just being a good father and learning and reading as much as I can before I die.
 
2012-08-30 03:57:48 PM  
I'd like to kick this guy's ass and take his lunch money.
 
2012-08-30 04:04:58 PM  
if working hard simply equates to wealthy I guess the Mexican contractor I hired to do some project must be Carlos Slim in disguise because he was the hardest mofo I've ever seen in my life.
 
2012-08-30 04:05:15 PM  

T.M.S.: seadoo2006:

If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.

$200K a year in the US is not enough money to do anything you want. And living in a major city makes it even less so.


Oh, really, what can't you do with $10,000 a month after taxes, even in NYC ... and yes, I lived in NYC and guess what, $3000 gets you a decently nice place, even in Manhattan. I lived in a small one bedroom in mid-town and paid $1650/month.

You're just an apologist for people making stupid decisions with their money and then complaining they don't make enough. I guarantee you I could live like a king for $5000/month after taxes in Manhattan.
 
2012-08-30 04:06:06 PM  
Jon Stewart said it about Romney, but I think it applies here, too.

"Here's what Romney doesn't understand," Stewart said. "Nobody cares that Romney is rich. It's Romney's inability to understand the institutional advantage that he gains from the government's tax code largesse. That's a little offensive to people, especially considering Romney's view on anyone else who looks to the government for things like, I don't know, food and medicine."

Am I jealous of people with more money than me? Yeah, some. But, by and large, I enjoy my life. I don't care that I'm not a multi-millionaire. All the smoking, drinking, socializing, drugs, and hookers are fun. I don't need a billion dollars to enjoy those things. What pisses me off is the mythology that these guys are peddling, that they got to where they are with no help from anybody else, and anybody can work hard enough to be a billionaire like them. They then proceed to game the system, lobbying for every tax advantage they can get, by selling the myth that if they only get one more tax break, they'll look out for the little guy out of the goodness of their own heart, just trust them.
 
2012-08-30 04:07:24 PM  

vpb: Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?

Is this the "paint your opponent with your weakness thing?

Are you really stupid enough to think anyone ever got rich by working hard, or are you stupid enough to think that the financial shenanigans, fraud and similar things that actually make people rich are "work"?


Who cares? Might makes right, and rich is our culture's version of "might". If someone gets away with fraud, it isn't fraud. If someone gets away with theft, it isn't theft.

You have no place to argue, because you don't have enough money for your opinion to mean anything.
 
2012-08-30 04:31:27 PM  
I love being called lazy by a disgusting lump of fat who has never faced any real risk or want in her life.

Personally, I think she's hoping that someone will be pissed off enough to kill her and end her disgusting existence. Or maybe saying shiat like that is the only way she can get up enough self-esteem to be happy, despite the billions.

Either way, I have to admit, I wouldn't trade places. Given all the variables, 20 Billion isn't enough to be her.

/lesson to conservative class warriors...there's a difference between finding a rich person to be clueless, annoying, dishonest, and disgusting, and actually envying their wealth. But hey, keep on telling yourselves whatever lies make you feel better, I guess.
 
2012-08-30 04:35:39 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Laughable nonsense. I paid all those people to build the factories. They were compensated at a mutually agreeable wage and have no claim to any ownership in the company.

If you pay a contractor to build an addition to your home, do he and all his employees have the right to say they own part of your house? You didn't build it, they did. You just paid for their labor to build it


I agree that vps' example might not have been the best, but the point he is claiming is valid: there is a distinction to be made between being able to inherit your father's money, and being able to inherit your father's power. It's easy to seperate the two when we talk about the middle class, because they have no power. They only have things. But it's not so easy when we talk about the people who actually control the means of production. Just as the masses rose up against hereditary political rulers, they will rise up against hereditary economic rulers. At least in France. Americans are a bunch of pussies.
 
2012-08-30 04:36:26 PM  

dittybopper: If you are born into wealth, it's very likely that you learned your money handling skills from your parents. Those skills might not be the kind necessary to *MAKE* a fortune, but they would at least be the kind that allow you to *RETAIN* one.


I heard this same rant before on here, probably from you. Oh well.
 
2012-08-30 04:37:40 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.

Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.

lolwut?

[t0.gstatic.com image 194x260]

sorry...too easy

He went to Yale :-P

He went to both. MBA at Harvard




Which shows you what that is worth.
 
2012-08-30 04:48:47 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Loadmaster: There was a time, not too long ago, when people did not want to ask for hand-outs because of the stigma and loss of self-worth it brought. Not any more.

You know what else was not too long ago?

[i31.photobucket.com image 368x303][c1933542.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com image 600x453][24.media.tumblr.com image 344x500] 

...unless you really suck at history. In which case it never happened and can't ever happen


The Holocaust?
 
2012-08-30 04:49:55 PM  
Want to know billionaires I'm jealous of?

Dean Kamen.
Steve Wozniak.
James Cameron.
Richard Branson.
Bill Gates.

And it isn't the money I'm jealous of, it's what they do with it.
 
2012-08-30 05:02:01 PM  

impaler: Want to know billionaires I'm jealous of?

Dean Kamen.
Steve Wozniak.
James Cameron.

Richard Branson.
Bill Gates.

And it isn't the money I'm jealous of, it's what they do with it.


Not to be pendantic, but The Woz and James Cameron aren't billionaires ... Cameron is about $700 million and The Woz is about $100 Million.
 
2012-08-30 05:07:56 PM  

BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.


Give me millions of dollars AND a mining company that holds the lease to one of the largest iron ore deposits in the world and I'll turn into thousands of times more. She didn't just get the money she got the company as well and in case you hadn't noticed with the Chinese boom the price of raw materials has skyrocketed.
 
2012-08-30 05:19:06 PM  

MikeMc: Give me millions of dollars AND a mining company that holds the lease to one of the largest iron ore deposits in the world and I'll turn into thousands of times more. She didn't just get the money she got the company as well and in case you hadn't noticed with the Chinese boom the price of raw materials has skyrocketed.


10 X for iron ore prices in the last 10 years. She must truly be awesome to be responsible for the boom in Chinese manufacturing that created a massive demand for her iron ore.
 
2012-08-30 05:19:42 PM  

seadoo2006: Not to be pendantic, but The Woz and James Cameron aren't billionaires ... Cameron is about $700 million and The Woz is about $100 Million.


I didn't realize Woz was such a lazy untalented loser.
 
2012-08-30 05:19:54 PM  
t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-08-30 05:33:58 PM  

Howie Spankowitz: Thanks for the advice, JOB CREATOR!


What an ass. I think I read in another article the value of her trust/inheritance was USD75 million.

Sticking that in the bank for 20 years at 5% would yield USD200 million. Without lifting a finger. Outside of opening your mail every month and reading your dividend reports.
 
2012-08-30 05:49:13 PM  

Carousel Beast: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Are you willfully ignorant, or just inherently stupid?


Now now, he could easily be both.

In the UK Alan Sugar started selling crap in a market stall at 15. Lord Forte was an immigrant who started a milk bar and built up a hotel chain. Richard Bransons family were fairly broke when he was a child but he started a magazine while still at school and then expanded into the music business. Ronald Hobson and Donald Gosling bought a derelict bomb site for £200 after the war and built up a huge car park business. Bernie Ecclestone was born the son of a man who worked on fishing trawlers. James Dyson spent years trying to raise the money to build his vacuum cleaner before a licence deal with a Japanese company gave him the money. Charles Dunstone started what became the UKs biggest mobile phone retailer with £6000 in savings in 1989. etc etc....

None inherited money. None stole it. None made their fortune gambling on the stock market. None won the lottery. They worked for it and made their fortune.
 
2012-08-30 06:04:31 PM  

fireclown: Probably something to that, even though the messenger might be less than ideal.

What the hell. OK FARK, lets brainstorm. I'm willing to blow $500 on a startup. It has to be something that I can do while still working full time. Gimme your ideas.


Start here: The $100 Startup and you can have five goes at it!
 
2012-08-30 06:06:03 PM  

TV's Vinnie: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.

Exactly. NO ONE is allowed to become a millionaire these days unless the OTHER millionaires allow him/her to enter their ranks, or they inherit a huge sack of money from their dead parents.

Warren Buffet would STILL be bagging groceries if he was born fourty years later than he was.


img209.imageshack.us
 
2012-08-30 06:12:50 PM  

Barnstormer: "parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance" isn't hard work.

"If you have a hundred dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten, that's work. If you have a hundred million dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten million, that's inevitable" (source unknown)


Buy $90 worth of Coke in cans and an insulated bag and some ice. Pick a good spot on a hot day and you can easily sell them for double the price you paid if you bought them in a supermarket multipack. $90 clear profit for maybe a couple of hours work. And you get to just wander around a park or somewhere on a nice day. Easy. Richard Branson started his business when he was still at school. Ditto Alan Sugar.
 
2012-08-30 06:20:03 PM  

Flint Ironstag: None inherited money. None stole it. None made their fortune gambling on the stock market. None won the lottery.


And none are the subjects of this article.
 
2012-08-30 06:21:11 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Carousel Beast: vpb: ***snip***
None inherited money. None stole it. None made their fortune gambling on the stock market. None won the lottery. They worked for it and made their fortune.


And all took advantage of fortuitous market conditions that provided opportunities out of their control. How many other people do the same thing, but fail, and aren't held up as paragons of stick-to-it-ness and hard work? Also, how many of those people became billionaires off the sweat of their own brows? Oh that's right, none. They may have had an idea or design, but they all have/had armies of people working for them to get them to the billionaire plateau.

The idea that anyone can be wildly rich without significant contributions from other people is ridiculous. Why do people keep buying into the mythical "self-made man"? There comes a point when an individual's labor and vision is not enough to expand a business. From the point you take on your first employee, partner, investor, or loan you are no longer "self-made". You are now standing on the backs of others.

I do not begrudge anyone their fortune, just stop claiming that they did it all through hard work, guts, and bootstraps. If there is someone out there that owns a sole proprietorship, is their only employee, never took a loan or endowment, and is a billionaire, then that person would have a better argument. Now if that person amassed that wealth without the privilege of using publicly funded utilities, roads, courts, or technologies, then they would have an even stronger argument.

Until you find such a person, stop claiming that anyone is "self-made", it is preposterous.
 
2012-08-30 06:21:24 PM  

SergeantStedanko: The thing I don't get about her argument: not everyone can do it. I don't mean because not everyone has the skills (although that's true), but because it's not mathematically possible.

I'm no economist, but there are N dollars in the economy. If we all woke up tomorrow and had exactly equal skill and drive, we wouldn't all become rich. Someone has to consume the production.

Also, I agree with those above who say to become rich you must start a business. Someone replied and said that they know people making 6 figures working for the man. The kind of 6 figures you make being an employee won't get you rich. If you are very, very elite you might make over $500k/year as an employee somewhere, but that's extremely rare.


You're not an economist. The "natural" amount of dollars in an economy is zero. All wealth is created. By enterprises. The more people who start a small business, work hard and succeed the more wealth there will be in an economy.
Not everyone can be a billionaire playboy, there will always be a need for people to work at McDonalds and to sweep the streets, but the more people who become wealthy the more those workers will have to be paid.

A company I worked for years ago opened a branch in Reading UK. At that time many large corporations had opened offices in Reading so the place I worked for just could not get anyone to do some menial jobs. They had to pay more, far more than every other branch in the company, just to get shop floor workers. That's what happens when lots of people become better off.
 
2012-08-30 06:25:41 PM  
Lots of charts and talk about money, but not one reference to John Goodman as Linda Tripp. You guys are slippin. Where is the old Fark? Should have been within the first ten posts.
 
2012-08-30 06:30:27 PM  

vpb: Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.

No, you are looking at it from the wrong angle. A company is a group of people working together. You may have played a major role in building it, and you may be a part of it, but you didn't build it all by yourself.

You may have contributed money and time and maybe leadership, so you earned something. Not everything but something. Your son didn't. He certainly didn't earn the right to control other peoples livelihoods or to control the fraction of the economy that that company represents.


Typically the owner will have risked his money. Business fails, he loses the lot. Business makes a loss, he has to cover it. Employees get a regular pay check. Business makes a loss, they still get paid. Business fails they go and find another job.

If the owner doesn't get to make the decisions why would he take the risk? Result: No businesses. No jobs.
 
2012-08-30 06:31:07 PM  

Silverstaff: This idea that everybody can be rich if they just work hard is an illusion that needs to be dispelled.

At best, people can become middle-class and comfortable through hard work and halfway sound financial decisions.

Rich? That's pure luck of either birth or circumstance.

Okay. Let's say you're a typical, average, normal American, just very hard working. You are born to a middle class or lower-middle-class family. You get slightly above average grades (average intellect, but study hard). You work a part-time job in your teenage years.

You want to go to College to get ahead. Well, you've got two choices (since your parents aren't rich enough to pay for it all)

1. Go deep into student loan debt, racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt in the hope your education will pay it off.
2. Join the military and use your GI Bill and/or Tuition Assistance to pay for College. This hopes that you can get into the military and don't have a disqualifying medical condition, or otherwise are suitable for military service.

So, once you've traded off either 6 years of your life, or a mid-five-figure range debt for a degree, what are you going to do?

Now, let's assume you followed the popular advice here on Fark and majored in a hard science, like Physics or Chemistry. Well, university calculus is pretty freaking hard, and so are upper-level hard science classes, so even though you're a hard worker, Mr. Average will barely pass and skate by with a mediocre GPA.

Okay, you're in the job market. . .now what? Job market stinks. That science degree makes you fit to hold the same jobs any other college graduate has, or to work as a lab assistant. A Bachelor's degree, or even a Master's degree in hard sciences doesn't guarantee a good job.

So, you can go to graduate school, and hope to get a Ph.D. and make your way into academia. . .but that isn't going to make you "rich", just mildly affluent (at best). Your average intellect will have trouble competing with the el ...


There are people today, right now, making their fortune selling stuff on ebay. A business that they may have started with a few hundred dollars of "capital"
Like Alan Sugar did when he started selling cheap stuff in a market stall in a working class area of London. At fifteen years old. Now he worth a billion dollars and is the UK host of The Apprentice.

No degree. No inheritance. No huge capital to start. No friends in high places.

Can "everyone" do it? probably not. Can "anyone" do it? Absolutely.
 
2012-08-30 06:33:10 PM  
What a coont.

"Think of how many more jobs we could create if we weren't legally required to pay you a living wage! Unemployment would vanish! You really should consider abolishing this pesky legislation."

What an insulting biatch. Go tell a soldier, teacher or fireman that they obviously don't work as hard as you. Or get it through your fat, ugly skull that hard work doesn't magically convert into dollars.
 
2012-08-30 06:39:19 PM  

seadoo2006: impaler: Want to know billionaires I'm jealous of?

Dean Kamen.
Steve Wozniak.
James Cameron.
Richard Branson.
Bill Gates.

And it isn't the money I'm jealous of, it's what they do with it.

Not to be pendantic, but The Woz and James Cameron aren't billionaires ... Cameron is about $700 million and The Woz is about $100 Million.


I would replace James Cameron with George Lucas. Fark off, for all the shiat people gives him, we'd all be watching movies in claymation of it wasn't for Lucas pouring money into Industrial Light and Magic. Maybe CGI is overused but there's a lot of movies that just couldn't be made with the director's vision in mind without it. ILM operated in the red for a long time and Lucas didn't give up on it.
 
2012-08-30 06:43:21 PM  

Flint Ironstag: but the more people who become wealthy the more those workers will have to be paid.


Didn't the Hutt in the article suggest the minimum wage be lowered?
 
2012-08-30 06:45:33 PM  

roc6783: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

No matter how many times I explain this issue, there are still delusional morons that refuse to believe in reality. There is 1 component to success, opportunity. There is a laundry list of things you can do to improve the likelihood of taking advantage of your opportunity/opportunities, many of which are in your control, but the fact remains that without out opportunity, none of those other factors matter.


Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump/Steven Spielberg/Bill Gates and think "Whoa! I'm in an elevator with Donald Trump/Steven Spielberg/Bill Gates!"
Successful people would seize that twenty seconds to say "Mr Trump/Spielberg/Gates, I have a proposal involving the property downtown/my script/a programme. Can you spare five minutes to have a look at the details?" while handing them their card.
You'd be surprised how often that would work as long as you come across as sane and plausible. I've had several successes.

And yes, most people won't be sharing an elevator with Trump/Spielberg or Gates. But if you're a shelf filler at Walmart you might share an elevator with the GSM or an area manager. How about saying "I'm Joe Sixpack on grocery. I've got a suggestion for cutting cost/increasing sales"? Most people wouldn't even do that.
 
2012-08-30 06:47:56 PM  

Loadmaster: Despite all the vitriol in this thread, she has a valid point.

Sure, she inherited millions. But she worked hard and turned in into billions.

Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

But to be completely fair, she missed the obvious fact that hard work alone is not enough to make you fabulously wealthy. It takes having a good marketable idea that's worth money in order to become a millionaire/billionaire.


There have been some amazingly stupid ideas that have made millions. The snuggle blanket thing. Pet rocks. Truck nuts. Fox News.
 
2012-08-30 06:51:13 PM  

Loadmaster: Despite all the vitriol in this thread, she has a valid point.

Sure, she inherited millions. But she worked hard and turned in into billions.

Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

But to be completely fair, she missed the obvious fact that hard work alone is not enough to make you fabulously wealthy. It takes having a good marketable idea that's worth money in order to become a millionaire/billionaire.


It's amusing that people here keep referring to her hard work. Aside from going to court to secure her inherited millions, I don't see how people get "hard work" out of her activities. She bought companies. With millions of dollars she inherited (and she inherited a mining company, too). There's no "work" there. I'm guessing her lawyers did more work in that regard than she ever did. I've no doubt that she's smart, but smart and hard-working are not the same thing. She didn't go down into the mines herself and bring up valuable raw materials. She sat in a very nice office and signed contracts.

She's the same type of hard-working billionaire as Rupert Murdoch (he inherited his start in business, too). Her hypocritical posturing is the same social Darwinist bullshiat we hear over here from Republicans and the billionaires they work for.
 
2012-08-30 06:52:43 PM  

MikeMc: Flint Ironstag: but the more people who become wealthy the more those workers will have to be paid.

Didn't the Hutt in the article suggest the minimum wage be lowered?


Yes.
 
2012-08-30 06:55:42 PM  

Heron:
Because an organization is necessarily a group effort. Why do you get to claim ownership? Because you put down the start-up capital? Did you construct your factories, build all your production, organize the work, oversee it, handle all the sales and advertising? Those people clocking in everyday to ensure your business remains productive and successful have as much, if not a more, of a claim to owning their collective activity than you, the money-man. You don't "own" a corporation any more than you own the employees who do all the work. A corporation employs, produces goods, pays taxes; it is a social entity and as such a more democratic form of management and "ownership" which takes these other concerned parties into consideration is not only morally fairer but also more efficient, as Germany and Japan's heavily unionized and consistently robust manufacturing sectors prove.


This would be like the Japanese car industry that fired every union worker in the 1960s and hired a completely new workforce and set up "tame" in-house unions?
Or the German car companies like Mercedes, VW and BMW who are moving huge amounts of production to Hungary, Spain and even the UK and the USA?

If I start a company then it's mine. End of discussion. You work for me and I pay you a wage each week, that's the deal. You want to own a company, start your own. Lots of people do every day.

If I can't own my business and do what I want, within the law of course, with it then I won't risk my money starting it. Result: No new jobs, no wealth created, no taxes paid.
Why should I risk my money starting a business if I don't own it?
 
2012-08-30 07:00:54 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: She bought companies. With millions of dollars she inherited (and she inherited a mining company, too). There's no "work" there


Most of Hancock's revenue comes from revenue splits with mining companies that extract minerals from Hancocks leases.

Flint Ironstag: Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump


The Donald? The Donald who was set-up in business by his multi-millionaire real estate developer father? The Donald whose businesses have declared bankruptcy multiple times? The Donald who is being sued because he stopped making payments on the Trump Tower Chicago claiming the recession was an act of God? The Donald who claims to be a billionaire but can't afford a decent haircut? That Donald Trump?
 
2012-08-30 07:02:17 PM  

BgJonson79: impaler: BgJonson79: signaljammer: Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.

What you're saying, then, is that his parents aren't idiots. Weird how that works out. Smart kids have smart parents.

He sold MS-DOS to IBM before he owned MS-DOS. He had "connections."

How many stupid parents have good connections? Or stupid kids?


Think connections are all? Look at Prince Edward. His mother is The Queen. The freakin Queen Of England. You cannot be better connected than that, it is just not possible. He started his TV production business, several very wealthy people invested.

And he failed dismally.

He couldn't make a success of a TV production business in the UK, where there are hundreds of independent production companies making lots of money. Graham Norton just sold his prodco today for $25million.
 
2012-08-30 07:02:43 PM  
And the fastest rowers in the wells of Ben Hur sailing vessels get to be captain someday.

Umm, those were slaves.
 
2012-08-30 07:04:06 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: It's amusing that people here keep referring to her hard work. Aside from going to court to secure her inherited millions, I don't see how people get "hard work" out of her activities. She bought companies. With millions of dollars she inherited (and she inherited a mining company, too). There's no "work" there.

She's the same type of hard-working billionaire as Rupert Murdoch (he inherited his start in business, too). Her hypocritical posturing is the same social Darwinist bullshiat we hear over here from Republicans and the billionaires they work for.


Or even in this thread. They treat billionaires who were born on third base like rock stars with god-like powers and because they haven't managed to lose their vast fortune, they're better with money than the poor bastard who only has an engineering degree (something actually useful) and only makes a paltry 6 figures.
 
2012-08-30 07:04:21 PM  

Flint Ironstag: There have been some amazingly stupid ideas that have made millions. The snuggle blanket thing. Pet rocks. Truck nuts.


Which just shows the randomness of the "right place/right time" prosperity. The "pet rock" creator failed multiple attempts to repeat its success.
 
2012-08-30 07:04:40 PM  

Jon Snow: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success.

Give me a shiat-ton of money and I guaran-farkin-tee I'll turn it into more money.

Thousands of times as much? Cause I'll send $10 right now if you can turn it into $30k.

Brain harder. Jesus farking christ.

If you start with a $10 million inheritance at birth and do nothing other than put it in a savings account with 5% interest, by the time you're 30, it will be worth four times as much.

If you put it in the market during the 70s-90s, it would be still more.

If you happened to inherit a mining empire and put the money back into mining, like the ogre from TFA, it would be still more.


Not in real terms. The number might be four times bigger. But what it is worth will be much the same. At the moment with rates where they are you'd be losing money.

Having four times as many dollars is not much when everything costs four times as much.....
 
2012-08-30 07:07:15 PM  

Flint Ironstag: If I can't own my business and do what I want, within the law of course, with it then I won't risk my money starting it. Result: No new jobs, no wealth created, no taxes paid.


Wrong. You're not a unique snow flake. If you have an idea, 100s of others do as well. If the market demands your product and you don't risk a business, someone else will fill it and make new jobs, create wealth, and pay taxes.
 
2012-08-30 07:07:26 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Loadmaster: Despite all the vitriol in this thread, she has a valid point.

Sure, she inherited millions. But she worked hard and turned in into billions.

Her point is that hard work is a good thing, and that sloth and living off the dole are bad things. And she's correct.

But to be completely fair, she missed the obvious fact that hard work alone is not enough to make you fabulously wealthy. It takes having a good marketable idea that's worth money in order to become a millionaire/billionaire.

There have been some amazingly stupid ideas that have made millions. The snuggle blanket thing. Pet rocks. Truck nuts. Fox News.


he only said marketable.. he didn't say smart AND marketable. With the average IQ of slightly above two digits in the US, some lower depending on the region like inner cities, Southern states or Appalachia regions... you don't exactly need to invent a practical pulse ion engine to become a billionaire.
 
2012-08-30 07:07:42 PM  

MikeMc: The Donald? The Donald who was set-up in business by his multi-millionaire real estate developer father? The Donald whose businesses have declared bankruptcy multiple times? The Donald who is being sued because he stopped making payments on the Trump Tower Chicago claiming the recession was an act of God? The Donald who claims to be a billionaire but can't afford a decent haircut? That Donald Trump?


What meant by "too big to fail". These people aren't any better with their money than anyone else. They simply have too many fingers in too many pies to ever truly go broke.
 
2012-08-30 07:10:54 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Think connections are all? Look at Prince Edward. His mother is The Queen. The freakin Queen Of England. You cannot be better connected than that, it is just not possible. He started his TV production business, several very wealthy people invested.

And he failed dismally.


Dubya couldn't run a baseball team and couldn't find oil (both were handed to himj). In Texas. The Harvard MBA at work. He later served two terms as leader of the free world. Yes, connections. May not be all but they sure don't hurt.
 
2012-08-30 07:13:44 PM  

SpectroBoy: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.

Here's the problem. If you are handed millions you have money and time to invest and work on growing your fortune.

If you are a single parent working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet you are lucky if, by the end of the month, you can pay your bills. There is no "working harder" once you are already working 2-3 jobs and raising a kid. There are only so many hours in a day.

I have several friends who have kids and work multiple HARD jobs like waitress, bartender, etc. They get up early, work all day, and if they are lucky get to spend an hour or two with their kids before collapsing from exhaustion to start again tomorrow.

The fat pig can can go fark herself.


Maybe they shouldn't have had a kid before they knew they could afford to feed it. Kids cost money and take lots of looking after. Ergo if I am poor I won't have a kid until after I get a job and income that can comfortably support me and rugrat.
 
2012-08-30 07:18:13 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar


Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar


Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar


The irony of someone claiming that a man like Sugar- 1) whose parents had a business in 2) one of the most prosperous cities in the entire developed word, who 3) grew up in a country that educated him and provided him with a social safety net, and gave him his first employment all at tax payer expense- is self-made, is simply staggering.

Did he work hard? No doubt. Did he exploit every opportunity that came his way? Sure.

Ain't too many Alan Sugars (in terms of "success", not hard work) coming out of the developing world's slums, champ. There's a reason for that, and isn't farking work ethic.

Have you ever traveled out of the developed world?
 
2012-08-30 07:20:56 PM  

Flint Ironstag: SpectroBoy: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I dont care what you say about this lady she was handed she built on it. She is a success. Maybe just maybe she could have just sat on the money and not done a damn thing but live off the interest for the rest of her life. Instead she put people to work and make money while doing it. I can see why people around her would trash her for it.

Here's the problem. If you are handed millions you have money and time to invest and work on growing your fortune.

If you are a single parent working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet you are lucky if, by the end of the month, you can pay your bills. There is no "working harder" once you are already working 2-3 jobs and raising a kid. There are only so many hours in a day.

I have several friends who have kids and work multiple HARD jobs like waitress, bartender, etc. They get up early, work all day, and if they are lucky get to spend an hour or two with their kids before collapsing from exhaustion to start again tomorrow.

The fat pig can can go fark herself.

Maybe they shouldn't have had a kid before they knew they could afford to feed it. Kids cost money and take lots of looking after. Ergo if I am poor I won't have a kid until after I get a job and income that can comfortably support me and rugrat.


Life circumstances change, buddy.

I am a single dad making ends meet because my wife decided, after 12 years, that it was "too hard being a mom" and took off leaving my girls with me (which I do not regret for a moment; I love being a dad...loved being a husband, too, but...well, yeah.).

I'm just saying, don't paint every poor, single person with kids using the same brush.
 
2012-08-30 07:22:20 PM  

MikeMc: Flint Ironstag: None inherited money. None stole it. None made their fortune gambling on the stock market. None won the lottery.

And none are the subjects of this article.


The comment I was replying to said "No one" can get rich through hard work, only stealing, inheriting etc.
 
2012-08-30 07:26:41 PM  

roc6783: Flint Ironstag: Carousel Beast: vpb: ***snip***
None inherited money. None stole it. None made their fortune gambling on the stock market. None won the lottery. They worked for it and made their fortune.

And all took advantage of fortuitous market conditions that provided opportunities out of their control. How many other people do the same thing, but fail, and aren't held up as paragons of stick-to-it-ness and hard work? Also, how many of those people became billionaires off the sweat of their own brows? Oh that's right, none. They may have had an idea or design, but they all have/had armies of people working for them to get them to the billionaire plateau.

The idea that anyone can be wildly rich without significant contributions from other people is ridiculous. Why do people keep buying into the mythical "self-made man"? There comes a point when an individual's labor and vision is not enough to expand a business. From the point you take on your first employee, partner, investor, or loan you are no longer "self-made". You are now standing on the backs of others.

I do not begrudge anyone their fortune, just stop claiming that they did it all through hard work, guts, and bootstraps. If there is someone out there that owns a sole proprietorship, is their only employee, never took a loan or endowment, and is a billionaire, then that person would have a better argument. Now if that person amassed that wealth without the privilege of using publicly funded utilities, roads, courts, or technologies, then they would have an even stronger argument.

Until you find such a person, stop claiming that anyone is "self-made", it is preposterous.


Who has ever said that? They employed people. Those people got paid a wage. They didn't risk their money. Who has ever claimed a "self made" billionaire achieved their success without employing anyone? Isn't being a job creator (and the taxes that generates) a good thing? Isn't that part of the benefit of starting a business? That's the whole point!
 
2012-08-30 07:27:02 PM  

WhoGAS: I am a single dad making ends meet because my wife decided, after 12 years, that it was "too hard being a mom" and took off leaving my girls with me


You should have left the children with her before she left them with you.

What poor people don't understand, is that their inability to plan and make smart financial decisions is what holds them back. And this is a perfect example.

/Condescending rich arsehole that can't comprehend money over anything else.
 
2012-08-30 07:29:14 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Having four times as many dollars is not much when everything costs four times as much.....


It... It almost sounds like you're talking about inflation.

But then:

At the moment with rates where they are you'd be losing money.

You seem to realize that our economy is depressed and has basically no inflation.

Are you trolling me?

Using really modest interest rate of 5% and the current inflation rate, she'd have essentially tripled her initially inheritance by doing nothing, taking into consideration inflation. Want to say inflation should be greater? Fine, so should her interest rates. We can do this all day. You'll still be gabbing about "self-made" men and believe every idiotic word of it.
 
2012-08-30 07:30:30 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Isn't being a job creator (and the taxes that generates) a good thing?


The middle class are the job creators. No one ever made more money by making more of a product that doesn't sell.
 
2012-08-30 07:32:58 PM  

MikeMc: Flint Ironstag: but the more people who become wealthy the more those workers will have to be paid.

Didn't the Hutt in the article suggest the minimum wage be lowered?


And the average wage in countries like the US, with lots of millionaires, is far higher than most countries around the world where they have fewer millionaires.

Look at Japan. When they started flooding the US with cheap radios and cheap cars it was because they paid peanuts and could undercut US workers. A couple of decades later all wages have risen and Japan started to lose out to Korea. Now Koreas average wages have risen and has started to lose out to China....
The cycle continues. As an economy succeeds everyone benefits. All wages rise.
 
2012-08-30 07:35:58 PM  

MikeMc:

Flint Ironstag: Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump

The Donald? The Donald who was set-up in business by his multi-millionaire real estate developer father? The Donald whose businesses have declared bankruptcy multiple times? The Donald who is being sued because he stopped making payments on the Trump Tower Chicago claiming the recession was an act of God? The Donald who claims to be a billionaire but can't afford a decent haircut? That Donald Trump?


Does any of that invalidate my point? If I had a business proposal, in property or in TV, or maybe even hair products, he could still be a very good connection.
 
2012-08-30 07:39:02 PM  

impaler: Flint Ironstag: If I can't own my business and do what I want, within the law of course, with it then I won't risk my money starting it. Result: No new jobs, no wealth created, no taxes paid.

Wrong. You're not a unique snow flake. If you have an idea, 100s of others do as well. If the market demands your product and you don't risk a business, someone else will fill it and make new jobs, create wealth, and pay taxes.


Way to miss the point. Why would any of them take the risk if you're going to tell them they don't own the business, can't make the decisions and can't leave it to their children?

Why would anyone take that risk without the potential for the reward?
 
2012-08-30 07:39:49 PM  

Flint Ironstag: MikeMc:

Flint Ironstag: Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump

The Donald? The Donald who was set-up in business by his multi-millionaire real estate developer father? The Donald whose businesses have declared bankruptcy multiple times? The Donald who is being sued because he stopped making payments on the Trump Tower Chicago claiming the recession was an act of God? The Donald who claims to be a billionaire but can't afford a decent haircut? That Donald Trump?

Does any of that invalidate my point? If I had a business proposal, in property or in TV, or maybe even hair products, he could still be a very good connection.


No, what invalidates your point is that you think someone like that will pay 2 shats to what some random person says to them on the streets. You might as well try to bump into a producer in Hollywood and hand him your script. I'm sure some will even be nice and take it. They will throw it away the first chance they get though.
 
2012-08-30 07:41:01 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Way to miss the point. Why would any of them take the risk if you're going to tell them they don't own the business, can't make the decisions and can't leave it to their children?


Who suggested we do that?
 
2012-08-30 07:41:22 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Having four times as many dollars is not much when everything costs four times as much.....


If someone quadrupled their money since the 80s they would way way way ahead of the rate of inflation. Their real purchasing power would have increased by a huge amount.
 
2012-08-30 07:47:15 PM  

WhyteRaven74: If someone quadrupled their money since the 80s they would way way way ahead of the rate of inflation. Their real purchasing power would have increased by a huge amount.


You think his arguments (or any of the others' perpetuating these myths) are based on something other than ideology and myth?
 
2012-08-30 07:50:56 PM  

Jon Snow: Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar

Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar

Flint Ironstag: Alan Sugar

The irony of someone claiming that a man like Sugar- 1) whose parents had a business in 2) one of the most prosperous cities in the entire developed word, who 3) grew up in a country that educated him and provided him with a social safety net, and gave him his first employment all at tax payer expense- is self-made, is simply staggering.

Did he work hard? No doubt. Did he exploit every opportunity that came his way? Sure.

Ain't too many Alan Sugars (in terms of "success", not hard work) coming out of the developing world's slums, champ. There's a reason for that, and isn't farking work ethic.

Have you ever traveled out of the developed world?


So, much the same as the Australians this article is talking about then?

Sugar grew up in a council flat. That's social housing to Americans. If you're trying to claim he was in any way "privileged" then you're way off.

And millionaires coming out of the slums? How about this Indian woman, from the Untouchable caste, who made her fortune?
 
2012-08-30 07:51:10 PM  

Jon Snow: are based on something other than ideology and myth?


No.
 
2012-08-30 07:53:33 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Sugar grew up in a council flat.


BTW a person is far more likely to become rich after growing up poor in Australia or England, or Germany, or France, or, well pretty much anywhere but the US.
 
2012-08-30 07:55:06 PM  

WhoGAS:

Life circumstances change, buddy.

I am a single dad making ends meet because my wife decided, after 12 years, that it was "too hard being a mom" and took off leaving my girls with me (which I do not regret for a moment; I love being a dad...loved being a husband, too, but...well, yeah.).

I'm just saying, don't paint every poor, single person with kids using the same brush.


My apologies. I should have made it clear I was speaking hypothetically, not to "you". But I hope you accept that there are many who just have a kid at 16 and then struggle. Just as some people blow their first pay check on a plasma TV or a Playstation rather than pay the rent or save some.
 
2012-08-30 08:04:37 PM  

impaler: Flint Ironstag: MikeMc:

Flint Ironstag: Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump

The Donald? The Donald who was set-up in business by his multi-millionaire real estate developer father? The Donald whose businesses have declared bankruptcy multiple times? The Donald who is being sued because he stopped making payments on the Trump Tower Chicago claiming the recession was an act of God? The Donald who claims to be a billionaire but can't afford a decent haircut? That Donald Trump?

Does any of that invalidate my point? If I had a business proposal, in property or in TV, or maybe even hair products, he could still be a very good connection.

No, what invalidates your point is that you think someone like that will pay 2 shats to what some random person says to them on the streets. You might as well try to bump into a producer in Hollywood and hand him your script. I'm sure some will even be nice and take it. They will throw it away the first chance they get though.


I've met a few people in Hollywood, and some top execs in the UK. I've got a couple of reads (and got some excellent notes so I know at least one of their readers read my script) and some contacts. It can and does happen.

Richard Branson is in the airline business because some total stranger sent him a proposal wanting him to fund his airline. He'd never met the bloke or heard of him, but he read it and that's how Virgin Atlantic started.

That's the thing about successful business people. They are looking for new ideas and new ventures. They will listen.
 
2012-08-30 08:05:45 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: FTFA:Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor.

Let me translate Marie Antoinette here into layman's terms: "Stop complaining about shiatty wages, shiatt hours, and shiatty mining conditions. STFU, GBTW, do as you're told, and maybe someday you'll be as rich as me."


Or as it's more popularly known: The Republican Party Platform.
 
2012-08-30 08:07:14 PM  

Flint Ironstag: much the same as the Australians this article is talking about then


The same safety net for Australians that this Jabba the Hut who was born into a fortune is actively trying gut? Yes. Riddle me this, Donald Trump- do Australians enjoy greater or lesser odds of being wealthy than children born in developing world slums?

Flint Ironstag: If you're trying to claim he was in any way "privileged" then you're way off.


You apparently have no farking idea what a lack of privilege really is.

Flint Ironstag: How about this Indian woman, from the Untouchable caste, who made her fortune?


Do you have a hard time discriminating between "Ain't too many" and zero? Because it sounds like you do. $112 million dollars does not make you Alan farking Sugar, either. You're only off by an order of magnitude, but hey, I guess that's good enough, huh?
 
2012-08-30 08:10:27 PM  

impaler: Flint Ironstag: Way to miss the point. Why would any of them take the risk if you're going to tell them they don't own the business, can't make the decisions and can't leave it to their children?

Who suggested we do that?


The poster I was replying to who said no one should "own" a business or be able to pass it on to their children, it should belong to the employees.
 
2012-08-30 08:16:48 PM  

clevershark: cig-mkr: 1) You will never get rich working for someone else
2) You can't get rich by spending every dime you make on toys
3) You have to make your money work for you
4) Be frugal, but always buy the best you can afford
5) Set goals and stay the course to achieve those goals
6) Invest in the long term, (never met a rich day trader)

7) good relations with the local mafia chapter are useful in getting rid of that pesky competition.


This is a pretzel town after all...
 
2012-08-30 08:17:52 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: Having four times as many dollars is not much when everything costs four times as much.....

If someone quadrupled their money since the 80s they would way way way ahead of the rate of inflation. Their real purchasing power would have increased by a huge amount.


According to some online calculators $1000 put in a savings account in 1980 would be just under $5000 today. With inflation $1000 in 1980 would be worth about $2700 today. So a bit short of doubling their money. Which is far less than "four times" claimed.

At the moment a good online savings account is quoting well under half a percent APR. While the CPI inflation rate is 1.4%.

So savings are losing money big time at the moment.
 
2012-08-30 08:20:59 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: Sugar grew up in a council flat.

BTW a person is far more likely to become rich after growing up poor in Australia or England, or Germany, or France, or, well pretty much anywhere but the US.


Maybe it is easier here. Funny since many people here go on about our "class system" and how it keeps people down. I've worked for two Asian (India) owned businesses started by immigrants who created multi million pound businesses.
 
2012-08-30 08:30:27 PM  

Jon Snow: Flint Ironstag: much the same as the Australians this article is talking about then

The same safety net for Australians that this Jabba the Hut who was born into a fortune is actively trying gut? Yes. Riddle me this, Donald Trump- do Australians enjoy greater or lesser odds of being wealthy than children born in developing world slums?

Flint Ironstag: If you're trying to claim he was in any way "privileged" then you're way off.

You apparently have no farking idea what a lack of privilege really is.

Flint Ironstag: How about this Indian woman, from the Untouchable caste, who made her fortune?

Do you have a hard time discriminating between "Ain't too many" and zero? Because it sounds like you do. $112 million dollars does not make you Alan farking Sugar, either. You're only off by an order of magnitude, but hey, I guess that's good enough, huh?


Since many people here are saying that once you have a hundred million then turning that into a billion is easy then what's the problem?

And she was just the first Google result. Are you suggesting there are no others? At all? No Korean millionaires? No Chinese? No Taiwanese? No Pakistani?
 
2012-08-30 08:31:21 PM  

Flint Ironstag: impaler: Flint Ironstag: Way to miss the point. Why would any of them take the risk if you're going to tell them they don't own the business, can't make the decisions and can't leave it to their children?

Who suggested we do that?

The poster I was replying to who said no one should "own" a business or be able to pass it on to their children, it should belong to the employees.


For what it's worth I run into "no one should be allowed to pass a business on to their children" all the time on Fark. It's always an amusing conversation.

Idiotic AND amusing.
 
2012-08-30 08:48:36 PM  

T.M.S.: Flint Ironstag: impaler: Flint Ironstag: Way to miss the point. Why would any of them take the risk if you're going to tell them they don't own the business, can't make the decisions and can't leave it to their children?

Who suggested we do that?

The poster I was replying to who said no one should "own" a business or be able to pass it on to their children, it should belong to the employees.

For what it's worth I run into "no one should be allowed to pass a business on to their children" all the time on Fark. It's always an amusing conversation.

Idiotic AND amusing.


Well it's nearly two AM here so I've had enough anyway.
 
2012-08-30 08:51:51 PM  

seadoo2006: T.M.S.: seadoo2006:

If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.

$200K a year in the US is not enough money to do anything you want. And living in a major city makes it even less so.

Oh, really, what can't you do with $10,000 a month after taxes, even in NYC ...


Pay my Amex bill.


and yes, I lived in NYC and guess what, $3000 gets you a decently nice place, even in Manhattan. I lived in a small one bedroom in mid-town and paid $1650/month.

Congratulations. How many children were you raising in that one bedroom?


You're just an apologist for people making stupid decisions with their money...

Like renting an apartment when you make $200k a year? Stupid things like that?


I guarantee you I could live like a king for $5000/month after taxes in Manhattan.

Again, congratulations. I'm sure your definition of "living like a king" is applicable to every single resident of NYC.
 
2012-08-30 09:07:24 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Flint Ironstag: Having four times as many dollars is not much when everything costs four times as much.....

If someone quadrupled their money since the 80s they would way way way ahead of the rate of inflation. Their real purchasing power would have increased by a huge amount.


Ha! I have managed that. In the 80s I was worth about thirty pounds a year (birthday money sent from the UK by my grandparents). Now, being a smart kid I scammed the exchange rate, I'd watch the markets waiting for the pound to go up or the AU$ to go down. Then BAM I'd be in to the bank getting my free extra $1.23!
So, fast forward to now. I am worth so much more than £300. So, quadrupling £300 is umm £1200. lets say that with the current exchange rate $1841. Now, I also worked as a paperboy for a few months (before realising it was a mugs game and I'd rather be down the creek swimming after school). Lets say I earned about $50 in that time so $1891 quadrupled is $7564.
So, if I check my bank account now and I have more than that I am a frigging financial colossus!

/if only my grandparents had put a few million in each of their cards I too could have parleyed myself into a billionaire.
 
2012-08-30 09:27:30 PM  

Flint Ironstag: what's the problem?


Goalposts keep shifting, don't they? I wasn't the one holding her up as on the equal of Alan Sugar.

Flint Ironstag: Are you suggesting there are no others? At all? No Korean millionaires? No Chinese? No Taiwanese? No Pakistani?


The number of richest people who came from ostensibly humble means in the developing vs. developed world? Not zero. Ain't too many, though. Again, you seem to have a hard time discriminating between "relatively/comparatively rare" and "non-existent".

T.M.S.: Pay my Amex bill.


Can you share with the rest of us untermensch how someone manages to be a wildly successful self-made man? You know, one who didn't live a good chunk of his early years on the tax-payers' dime? Being disqualified from such a life personally, as I benefited from many institutions of the state, I was only asking in the hopes of passing on the wisdom to some uncorrupted youths in highlands of Peru.
 
2012-08-30 09:29:04 PM  
I could work more if I wanted but I'm on salary .The extra goes to somebody else.
 
2012-08-30 10:13:01 PM  

Mugato: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: Lionel Mandrake: BgJonson79: manimal2878: Mugato: Zuckerbergs, Bill Gates,

Not really apples to apples is it?

Neither of these guys had parents on food stamps or parents living pay check to pay check. Zuckerberg and gates both went to exclusive prep schools and had enough wealth to afford to go to Harvard and was raised in an atmosphere where he had the connections to apply. These are people that were born on third base.

Also... they're smart. If you have $1 billion, but an IQ of 85, you're still not going to Harvard.

lolwut?

[t0.gstatic.com image 194x260]

sorry...too easy

He went to Yale :-P

He went to both. MBA at Harvard



Which shows you what that is worth.


Seriously. Harvard is about: 1) Brand name 2) Connections 3) The Best and the Brightest being Taught by Top Notch Instructors.
 
2012-08-30 10:17:03 PM  

seadoo2006: If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.


No, not really, at least in some areas of the country.

If you have a family, it changes the calculus drastically. I grew up lower-middle class. I went to college even though my parents had saved a grand total of $1500 for my education. Financial aid, pell grants, and means-tested tuition all benefited me. I can expect to pay full tuition for my kids, so I put an astronomical amount of money into their college funds, and I get exactly a 5% tax break on that dough. That's just one example. Another would be child care - the average annual cost of infant and preschool child care in the state of Connecticut is $13,000 per child. Again, almost all after taxes. Between college planning and child care, a young high income family is looking at $2000 per child per month, almost all of it after tax. With an effective combined federal/state/FICA tax rate of 30%, a $200k income earner can expect $11,666/month, and three kids will take up well about half of that, leaving let's say $5000-$6000/month for a family of five to fund the parents' retirement, pay the mortgage, utilities, food bills, transportation costs, etc.

CErtainly nobody making $200k can cry poverty. You can't even say that they're scraping by. But that family is not "rich". They can't "do whatever they want".  There is no cabin on Lake Winnepesaukee, there is no boat, there is no sports car. There's a Hyundai SUV and a 6 year old subaru, and one away vacation a year.

Now, one of the guys who works for me makes $225k and lives on Manhattan in Chelsea. Single, no kids. He lives an enjoyable life.
 
2012-08-30 11:06:20 PM  

Babwa Wawa: leaving let's say $5000-$6000/month for a family of five to fund the parents' retirement, pay the mortgage, utilities, food bills, transportation costs, etc.


That does sound tough, don't know how some people could live like that.
 
2012-08-31 12:10:15 AM  
what if i'm not jealous

but simply expect those with thousands times more than they could ever use
help others in need simply because of their common humanity?

what do i do NOW?
 
2012-08-31 12:40:21 AM  
FTA: "Mrs Rinehart, who has seen her fortunes rise after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance into a mining empire now worth more than $20 billion, blames anti-business and socialist policies for hurting the poor."

What is "F*CK YOU SQUARE UP YOUR LUMPY FAT ASS" in Australian?
 
2012-08-31 12:43:31 AM  

GAT_00: Just 'working more' will not make you a millionaire. If that was the case, grad students would all be incredibly rich when they got done.


And many hispanic immigrants, both legal and illegal, would have more money than god.
/dem some hard working mofos
 
2012-08-31 12:46:44 AM  

Jon Snow:

T.M.S.: Pay my Amex bill.

Can you share with the rest of us untermensch how someone manages to be a wildly successful self-made man? You know, one who didn't live a good chunk of his early years on the tax-payers' dime? Being disqualified from such a life personally, as I benefited from many institutions of the state, I was only asking in the hopes of passing on the wisdom to some uncorrupted youths in highlands of Peru.


Nope. I have no idea how to do that. Sorry. Peru is not my strong suit.

I grew up in the arts working for not-for-profit institutions. (Most funded by the taxpayers and I thank them)

You are welcome to do the same any time you like. 

/Not sure what my Amex bill has to do with any of that
 
2012-08-31 12:51:54 AM  

dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.

Doesn't mean the advice is bad.

It's kind of like a natural born Olympic level athlete telling the rest of us to exercise more. Sure, we'll never swim like Michael Phelps or run like Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean that regular exercise won't make us more healthy.


No, it isn't. While the olympic athlete might have some genetic advantages (like Phelps' ape-like arms, great for swimming), they got to where they are by training, training and more training. This pig-faced b*tch was handed millions of dollars and used it to make more millions of dollars, like a certain republican presidential nominee.

In short she was put on third base, waddled her fat ass across home plate, and now has the temerity to open her flabby cakehole and b*tch about people who haven't even been allowed into the batter's box yet and probably never will be.

Fu(k her.
 
2012-08-31 12:58:49 AM  

Babwa Wawa: seadoo2006: If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.

No, not really, at least in some areas of the country.



Seconded. I have a few friends who make between $200k and $300k, and they consider themselves solid middle class (and I agree with that). They own one house, pay a mortgage on it, have two cars, and usually have two or less kids. Really, $200k isn't that much. Figuring (modestly) a mortgage payment of $3500 a month, car payments, student loan payments, perhaps private school for the kids, and pretty much all your money will be spoken for. That's solid middle class right there.
 
2012-08-31 01:09:28 AM  

Visionmn2: I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer. They simply don't want to leave their comfort zone and blame others for the shortcomings in their life while yes, buying a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket.


Probably because they see the assloads of people who already have associates, bachelors, PhDs, and masters degrees in the unemployment office waiting in the same lines that they are. Why go into debt and lose two or three years of your life to end up right back where you started?

And before you break out the "STEM", realize that not everyone wants to be or can be an engineer, programmer, scientist or mathematician. If you're going to put years of your life into achieving something, make it what you want, not what someone else wants.

Also, [citation needed].
 
2012-08-31 02:16:12 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I can see why people around her would trash her for it.


Wrong.Read the thread. It's much easier to be a successful race car driver if someone hands you the keys to a Ferrari. It's much easier to win the race if you're placed ten yards from the finish line. And it's much easier to become own a successful business when you have an assload of money to start it with.

However, no one here is "trashing" her because of her business, or that that she inherited an assload of cash, or that she looks like Jabba the Hutt's ex-wife. She's being trashed because of her sh*tty attitude toward people who don't have what she was given, and not earned.

Plenty of rich people around, but they don't get the flack this cow has earned for herself. Why? ATTITUDE.
Be thankful for what you've been given, and be humble in receiving that gift.
 
2012-08-31 02:58:34 AM  
I used to laugh at Dilbert. Then 2008 happened and all I feel is anger that all we did was laugh.
 
2012-08-31 04:32:43 AM  

WhyteRaven74: At some point this quote from Boswell's Life of Johnson will be pertinent to something said in this thread

"You meet a man begging; you charge him with idleness; he says, 'I am willing to labour. Will you give me work?' -- 'I cannot.' -- 'Why, then you have no right to charge me with idleness.' "


I honestly don't understand that
 
2012-08-31 06:15:03 AM  

Jon Snow: Flint Ironstag: what's the problem?

Goalposts keep shifting, don't they? I wasn't the one holding her up as on the equal of Alan Sugar.



Goalpost shifting? You're the one who has claimed many times in this thread that the woman in TFA didn't do anything, just having millions let her sit on her arse and turn it into billions. So clearly, if that is the case, this Indian woman can just sit on her arse and turn her $100million into a billion, right?

Or are you now admitting that it isn't as easy as that? That she "only" has $100m and that's it, she'll never get to Alan Sugar's level? She's well over a decade younger than him. Plenty of time to catch him up....

And this woman was telling Australians they should work harder. What has that got to do with slum dwellers from Mumbai? You're the one shifting the goalposts by claiming they can't work themselves rich. She never said they could.
 
2012-08-31 06:23:07 AM  

rewind2846: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

Yeah... Shut up.

Doesn't mean the advice is bad.

It's kind of like a natural born Olympic level athlete telling the rest of us to exercise more. Sure, we'll never swim like Michael Phelps or run like Usain Bolt, but that doesn't mean that regular exercise won't make us more healthy.

No, it isn't. While the olympic athlete might have some genetic advantages (like Phelps' ape-like arms, great for swimming), they got to where they are by training, training and more training. This pig-faced b*tch was handed millions of dollars and used it to make more millions of dollars, like a certain republican presidential nominee.

In short she was put on third base, waddled her fat ass across home plate, and now has the temerity to open her flabby cakehole and b*tch about people who haven't even been allowed into the batter's box yet and probably never will be.

Fu(k her.


So an athlete trains and works for their success, but anyone with a hundred million just has to sit there, do nothing, and become a billionaire?

I'm not a billionaire, but I don't make excuses like "the man is keeping me down" or "the system won't let me". I've had chances and blown them, and I'm pretty lazy. But I'm honest enough to admit that, not make excuses to let me feel better and blame my lack of success on anyone else.

Lottery winners have won $100million, and what's happened to them? Many have blown the lot in a few years. I thought you said anyone with that sort of windfall didn't need to do anything? They could just sit there and become a billionaire?
 
2012-08-31 08:22:37 AM  

DirkValentine: WhyteRaven74: At some point this quote from Boswell's Life of Johnson will be pertinent to something said in this thread

"You meet a man begging; you charge him with idleness; he says, 'I am willing to labour. Will you give me work?' -- 'I cannot.' -- 'Why, then you have no right to charge me with idleness.' "

I honestly don't understand that


"Get a job you bum" "ok give me one" "lol no" "fark you" there you go
 
2012-08-31 08:44:05 AM  

T.M.S.: I have no idea how to do that. Sorry.


T.M.S.: /Not sure what my Amex bill has to do with any of that


I was too lazy to scroll back to get this quote:

T.M.S.: All but one billionaire I know started with nothing.

 
2012-08-31 09:08:45 AM  

moefuggenbrew: Babwa Wawa: leaving let's say $5000-$6000/month for a family of five to fund the parents' retirement, pay the mortgage, utilities, food bills, transportation costs, etc.

That does sound tough, don't know how some people could live like that.


Are you retarded, or do you just choose to act retarded? I wrote "CErtainly nobody making $200k can cry poverty. You can't even say that they're scraping by."

Consider a median home price of $300-400K in the NY area, the mortgage and tax on that will be in the $3000 range, 500-600 a week for food, utilities, retirement planning, etc.

Hell yeah you can live on that. I've lived on far less, for sure. But that's solid middle class living.
 
2012-08-31 10:51:18 AM  

Flint Ironstag: roc6783: Flint Ironstag: Carousel Beast: vpb: ***snip***

Who has ever said that? They employed people. Those people got paid a wage. They didn't risk their money. Who has ever claimed a "self made" billionaire achieved their success without employing anyone? Isn't being a job creator (and the taxes that generates) a good thing? Isn't that part of the benefit of starting ...


I bolded the pertinent parts for you. You are not "self-made" if you are relying on other people for your success. Once again, show me someone who owns a sole proprietorship, has no employees, has never taken a loan or endowment, and is a billionaire. Then we can figure out if that person ever used publicly funded utilities, courts, and technologies. If not, then there very well may be a good argument for that person being "self-made". Though, i am confident that if we dig hard enough, we can find a way that this mythical individual had to rely on other people's efforts on their behalf.


Flint Ironstag: roc6783: vpb: ***snip***
Successful people make their opportunities. Most people would find themselves sharing an elevator with Donald Trump/Steven Spielberg/Bill Gates and think "Whoa! I'm in an elevator with Donald Trump/Steven Spielberg/Bill Gates!"
***snip***
And yes, most people won't be sharing an elevator with Trump/Spielberg or Gates. But if you're a shelf filler at Walmart you might share an elevator with the GSM or an area manager. How about saying "I'm Joe Sixpack on grocery. I've got a suggestion for cutting cost/increasing sales"? Most people wouldn't even do that.


I underlined your delusional assertion and bolded the part where you contradicted completely yourself. People DON"T MAKE OPPORTUNITIES anymore than they control the weather. Here is an example, there is a drought in one county and every farmer there has a terrible harvest, and in the next county there is a perfect amount of rain and a massive harvest. Would you say that the farmers in the county where there was a drought were lazy or stupid or unsuccessful? No, there was a drought, completely out of their control.

Now say that the drought county still has a drought, and the perfect rain county still has perfect rain, but the weather forecast for the growing season predicted that the drought county would have perfect rain and the perfect rain county was predicted to have a drought.

To combat the predicted drought, all but one of the farmers in the predicted drought county plant soybeans since they can tolerate less water, but don't bring in nearly the same profit as corn. That one farmer decides to plant corn because no matter what the prediction is, he is a corn farmer.

In the predicted perfect county, everyone plants corn to take advantage of the predicted good conditions.

Now we fast forward to the harvest and see that everyone who planted corn in the predicted good county got burned because of the drought, everyone who planted soybeans in the predicted drought county barely broke even because of the margin on soybeans, and the one guy who planted corn in predicted drought county is now a multimillionaire because he had a banner harvest AND no one else had any corn.

Too many people point to the one guy who got stupid wealthy off the wrong decision, simply because it turned ok due to forces beyond his control. See that last bit is the kicker everyone wants to ignore. You can have a society changing product, but if the market doesn't want it (which you have no control over) you are sunk.

Successful people try to do everything they possibly can to increase their likelihood of having an opportunity, but they don't make them. Or they can be born into success, win the lottery, get hit by a mail truck, etc. The fact of the matter is that successful people where successful because of far reaching factors over which they had no control, but that doesn't fit the "work hard and be a billionaire just like me because I work hard" narrative.

TL;DR - You are a product of your genetic makeup, which you have no control over, and your environment, of which you control a very small portion. If you are successful, congrats, but stop telling everyone else who isn't that the only reason they aren't is because they don't work hard enough. It isn't, and it isn't the only reason you are successful either. Game theory, how does it work?
 
2012-08-31 11:10:02 AM  

Babwa Wawa: seadoo2006: If you make more than $200k, ANYWHERE in the USA, you're rich in my eyes. You are rich enough to do whatever you want.

No, not really, at least in some areas of the country.

If you have a family, it changes the calculus drastically. I grew up lower-middle class. I went to college even though my parents had saved a grand total of $1500 for my education. Financial aid, pell grants, and means-tested tuition all benefited me. I can expect to pay full tuition for my kids, so I put an astronomical amount of money into their college funds, and I get exactly a 5% tax break on that dough. That's just one example. Another would be child care - the average annual cost of infant and preschool child care in the state of Connecticut is $13,000 per child. Again, almost all after taxes. Between college planning and child care, a young high income family is looking at $2000 per child per month, almost all of it after tax. With an effective combined federal/state/FICA tax rate of 30%, a $200k income earner can expect $11,666/month, and three kids will take up well about half of that, leaving let's say $5000-$6000/month for a family of five to fund the parents' retirement, pay the mortgage, utilities, food bills, transportation costs, etc.

CErtainly nobody making $200k can cry poverty. You can't even say that they're scraping by. But that family is not "rich". They can't "do whatever they want".  There is no cabin on Lake Winnepesaukee, there is no boat, there is no sports car. There's a Hyundai SUV and a 6 year old subaru, and one away vacation a year.

Now, one of the guys who works for me makes $225k and lives on Manhattan in Chelsea. Single, no kids. He lives an enjoyable life.


Having a kid is a DECISION YOU MAKE. Christ, again, I said that anyone could live like a king on $200k. If you're stupid with your money (like pouring money down the drain having a kid), that's your own damn fault.

And child care? WTF, I'm 25 and I can count on my hands the number of people I grew up with that had 'child care' ... uh, no, you take care of your own damn kid or you ask granny or grandpa to watch them for a few hours. Again, these are your own PERSONAL decisions. If you have a kid, and can't sustain yourself on one income, well, you're god damn stupid.

Somehow, 98% of the country manages with less than a $200k household income a year ... Oh, you poor starving babies. Sorry, you're just farking greedy and stupid with your money. Somehow, my dad, on a single income, raised 4 kids through private school and college making less than $200k a year. My mom stayed at home.

98% of this country do it just fine. The complaints from the 2% saying they struggle is just financial stupidity. End of story.
 
2012-08-31 11:45:55 AM  

Jon Snow: T.M.S.: I have no idea how to do that. Sorry.

T.M.S.: /Not sure what my Amex bill has to do with any of that

I was too lazy to scroll back to get this quote:

T.M.S.: All but one billionaire I know started with nothing.


You continue to perplex me.

Are you trying to make some sort of point?
 
2012-08-31 11:54:39 AM  

rewind2846: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I can see why people around her would trash her for it.

Wrong.Read the thread. It's much easier to be a successful race car driver if someone hands you the keys to a Ferrari. It's much easier to win the race if you're placed ten yards from the finish line. And it's much easier to become own a successful business when you have an assload of money to start it with.

However, no one here is "trashing" her because of her business, or that that she inherited an assload of cash, or that she looks like Jabba the Hutt's ex-wife. She's being trashed because of her sh*tty attitude toward people who don't have what she was given, and not earned.

Plenty of rich people around, but they don't get the flack this cow has earned for herself. Why? ATTITUDE.
Be thankful for what you've been given, and be humble in receiving that gift.


Good post. I'm sure this lady put a lot of time and effort into her business, but so do the majority of business owners. She got extremely lucky in life not once but twice. Work is not the difference why she's worth billions and others fail.
 
2012-08-31 12:12:41 PM  

seadoo2006: f you're stupid with your money (like pouring money down the drain having a kid), that's your own damn fault.


Yes, we should all live in a country with no children. Do you have any idea the kind of economic and societal death spiral a society goes into when old people significantly outnumber the viable workers?

seadoo2006: WTF, I'm 25 and I can count on my hands the number of people I grew up with that had 'child care' ...


How do you propose to make $200k, or even $100k a year without having someone care for your children while you're at work?

seadoo2006: Somehow, my dad, on a single income, raised 4 kids through private school and college making less than $200k a year. My mom stayed at home.


As did my father. He didn't have to plan for retirement - he had a pension that almost nobody outside of government can count on now. My sisters and I were able to take advantage of means-tested programs for higher education, which will not and should not be available to me. I will pay for my children's higher education in full, with contributions from them working summer jobs, etc. Retirement and higher education requires planning for higher income folks, and it requires that I put aside a good portion of my take home pay.

seadoo2006: Oh, you poor starving babies.


I love your selective reading. I said quite clearly that nobody in that income range can cry poverty, nor can they say that they're scraping by. However, people in that income range are not "rich", as you wrote, nor can they do "whatever they want", as you also wrote.
 
2012-08-31 12:18:18 PM  

T.M.S.: Are you trying to make some sort of point?


You apparently know multiple billionaires who "started with nothing".

As I requested earlier- Can you tell us how someone manages to will themselves into such a fortune absent, say, being schooled on the tax-payers' dime? Presumably, since they started with "nothing", they weren't enrolled in private schools, they weren't enrolled in public schools, and they didn't have parents who had the luxury of being able to teach them themselves.

Is this too obtuse of a line of questioning?
 
2012-08-31 12:38:15 PM  

Jon Snow: T.M.S.: Are you trying to make some sort of point?

You apparently know multiple billionaires who "started with nothing".

As I requested earlier- Can you tell us how someone manages to will themselves into such a fortune absent, say, being schooled on the tax-payers' dime? Presumably, since they started with "nothing", they weren't enrolled in private schools, they weren't enrolled in public schools, and they didn't have parents who had the luxury of being able to teach them themselves.

Is this too obtuse of a line of questioning?


I see. You were being needlessly pedantic.

Carry on then.
 
2012-08-31 01:27:00 PM  

T.M.S.: Jon Snow: T.M.S.: Are you trying to make some sort of point?

You apparently know multiple billionaires who "started with nothing".

As I requested earlier- Can you tell us how someone manages to will themselves into such a fortune absent, say, being schooled on the tax-payers' dime? Presumably, since they started with "nothing", they weren't enrolled in private schools, they weren't enrolled in public schools, and they didn't have parents who had the luxury of being able to teach them themselves.

Is this too obtuse of a line of questioning?

I see. You were being needlessly pedantic.

Carry on then.


One of the things I've noticed about "self-made billionaires" is that although they might not have started with a significant bundle of cash, they tend to have been raised in the upper class. I believe it's the way they perceive risk and reward. Those with lower-class and middle-class upbringings will tend not to take the kinds of risks required to build a billion dollar industry. The children of the middle class and lower middle class tend to take very few risks. For example, the idea of leaving Harvard to start a software business that has virtually no market is not something a middle class person would normally decide to do. They are pressured and programmed for stability, partly because of upbringing and partly because of the lack of a financial safety net. Someone with upper or upper-middle class parents will not necessarily find themselves completely destitute after the failure of a high-risk, high-reward effort.

For the rectal pluck of billionaires who came from upper middle class upbringings are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Richard Branson, Carlos Slim. I think Larry Ellison is one of those guys who doesn't fit the mold.
 
2012-08-31 03:09:33 PM  

seadoo2006: And child care? WTF, I'm 25


And that's why your opinion is so very narrow. Like I said before, people do get married and have kids and base their lives on that income structure. Sometimes you just don't know your wife is going to leave you several years later.

Life changes. You're 25 so you haven't seen that yet and you seem to have led a very sheltered life to this point so I'm not surprised you can't see much further than life has allowed.
 
2012-08-31 03:36:40 PM  

Jon Snow: T.M.S.: Are you trying to make some sort of point?

You apparently know multiple billionaires who "started with nothing".

As I requested earlier- Can you tell us how someone manages to will themselves into such a fortune absent, say, being schooled on the tax-payers' dime? Presumably, since they started with "nothing", they weren't enrolled in private schools, they weren't enrolled in public schools, and they didn't have parents who had the luxury of being able to teach them themselves.

Is this too obtuse of a line of questioning?


And the goalposts move yet again! TFA is about a woman talking to an Australian audience, but you said she's talking rubbish because not enough people from the slums of Mumbai have become millionaires. What has that got to do with Australia?
Then you claimed she didn't actually do anything, she inherited millions and just sat on her arse and that turned into a billion, but the woman from Mumbai who made $100million you say doesn't count because she's not as rich as Alan Sugar. Surely by your logic all she has to do is sit on her arse and wait, right? No effort required?

Then you create your own definition of "self made millionaire", a totally different definition that everyone else uses. By your definition they can't have been schooled, by the state or privately, and can't have employed anyone. I am sitting here on the edge of my seat waiting for your next requirement. They can't speak English or any known language? They can only communicate by grunting and pointing? They can't be self made if they use our language, right? Or can they only use a PC if they have written their very own programming language and OS? Go on, amaze us with your next definition of self made.

(Not to mention if any self made millionaire did achieve that without employing anyone you'd be the first to say "What a selfish bastard! He didn't create any jobs! I thought they were supposed to be job creators!?")
 
2012-08-31 04:03:21 PM  

Babwa Wawa: T.M.S.: Jon Snow: T.M.S.: Are you trying to make some sort of point?

You apparently know multiple billionaires who "started with nothing".

As I requested earlier- Can you tell us how someone manages to will themselves into such a fortune absent, say, being schooled on the tax-payers' dime? Presumably, since they started with "nothing", they weren't enrolled in private schools, they weren't enrolled in public schools, and they didn't have parents who had the luxury of being able to teach them themselves.

Is this too obtuse of a line of questioning?

I see. You were being needlessly pedantic.

Carry on then.

One of the things I've noticed about "self-made billionaires" is that although they might not have started with a significant bundle of cash, they tend to have been raised in the upper class. I believe it's the way they perceive risk and reward. Those with lower-class and middle-class upbringings will tend not to take the kinds of risks required to build a billion dollar industry. The children of the middle class and lower middle class tend to take very few risks. For example, the idea of leaving Harvard to start a software business that has virtually no market is not something a middle class person would normally decide to do. They are pressured and programmed for stability, partly because of upbringing and partly because of the lack of a financial safety net. Someone with upper or upper-middle class parents will not necessarily find themselves completely destitute after the failure of a high-risk, high-reward effort.

For the rectal pluck of billionaires who came from upper middle class upbringings are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Richard Branson, Carlos Slim. I think Larry Ellison is one of those guys who doesn't fit the mold.


I suspect that that may be true for many cases. But the opposite can also be true. Without poverty to drive them on many people would just settle for the comfortable middle class life. And grinding poverty can drive some to great success.

To go back to Alan Sugar again he was, and is, very much working class. State school, state provided and subsidised housing. He started out selling stuff in a street market stall.

Michelle Mone is a working class Glasgow woman who left school at 15 and became a model. She started her bra company with redundancy money.

Tony Pidgley is the founder and owner of Berkeley Group.
This article says: "Pidgley was adopted from Barnardo's aged four by travellers and spend his formative years living in a disused railway carriage. He left school aged 15, struggling to read and write, and became a gardener.
Pidgley was able to save up enough money to buy a lorry and then, showing a sharp business acumen, bloody-mindedness, and common sense, quickly established it as a significant haulage company.
By 1968, just five years after leaving school, he sold the business and became a millionaire, gaining a job at the purchaser, Crest Nicholson, in their building division.
His experiences allowed him to found Berkeley and turn it into one of the most-respected housebuilders in the industry.
"

Barnardos is a national orphanage BTW.

If an orphan who struggled to read and write when he left school at 15 can become one of the biggest property developers in the UK then anyone can do it. Not saying they will be able to do it, just that it is possible.

Despite some of the weapons-grade derp in this thread, like you can't become a millionaire unless all the current millionaires agree to allow you, or that there is a fixed amount of dollars in the economy so if one person gets richer everyone else must get poorer, it is possible.

I guess some people simply refuse to accept that because then they will have no one to blame for their own lack of success. Far easier to just not bother and tell yourself that "The Man" wouldn't let you succeed anyway, so it's not your fault you're poor.

And to the single parent guy, your case sounds bad. But JK Rowling was a single mother living on welfare who wrote a book while looking after her young child. There are people today making big money selling stuff on ebay from home. many people are making money making videos for Youtube.
 
2012-08-31 07:54:19 PM  
weknowmemes.com
 
2012-08-31 10:09:09 PM  

Flint Ironstag: Despite some of the weapons-grade derp in this thread, like you can't become a millionaire unless all the current millionaires agree to allow you, or that there is a fixed amount of dollars in the economy so if one person gets richer everyone else must get poorer, it is possible.


Totally agreed. Nearly anyone with some amount of intellect and a sense of hard work can become a millionaire. I was thinking more of the folks who will, once they amass a modicum of true fortune, will risk it to approach true wealth (tens to hundreds of millions).

And a corollary to the upper-class upbringings affecting sense of risk so they can approach billionaire status: I think those who grew up in poverty are more likely than middle class to get there. Growing up in poverty has a tendency to make you view risk differently - poverty is familiar, and therefore you are unafraid of it.

A class exception to this are those who attain true wealth through arts and entertainment. JK Rowling took few risks in becoming a billionaire, unlike Branson or any of the other folks I mentioned. Surely it takes hard work to get there, but it's not usually a systematic or particularly risky approach that attains the wealth.
 
2012-08-31 10:12:16 PM  

Flint Ironstag: And to the single parent guy, your case sounds bad. But JK Rowling was a single mother living on welfare who wrote a book while looking after her young child. There are people today making big money selling stuff on ebay from home. many people are making money making videos for Youtube.


Yes, but all those people did things that other people were willing to pay money to have them do. That's completely unfair, that they get money just because they work hard at making entertaining material or doing things that other people value, while I work just as hard playing World of Warcraft and Minecraft and don't get paid a penny.

/why doesn't anybody care about me?
//besides the fact that I'm the cancer that's killing America
 
2012-09-01 12:42:04 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: vpb: dittybopper: TsarTom: ...after parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance...

The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financ ...

It's nothing to do with the long term poor, she is talking about the middle class. The people who do the actual work that makes people like her rich.

She might actually do some work, but that's not where here money comes from, she simply inherited a company which gives her the right to take whatever the employees of the company produce and give them as little as she can get away with.

I have never understood why someone would be able to inherit an organization anyway, like it was a piece of furniture or something. It's almost like the feudal system where nobles inherit a manor and get to take a big share of what the serfs produce, simply because of birth.

Youre looking at it from the wrong angle. Why shouldn't the person who built the organization be able to do whatever he/she wants with it?

If I am smart/lucky/hard working enough to build a business worth $100m/$2m/150k or whatever, why shouldn't I be able to give it to my lazy stupid son? Sure, he didn't do anything to deserve it but I did and want it to go to him.


Because it leads to aristocracy.
 
2012-09-01 12:44:43 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: bifford: So the 99% are all lazy idiots?

Well, those who identify themselves as part of "the 99%" are idiots.


I hope someone cockpunches you in the near future.
 
2012-09-01 12:46:38 AM  

Visionmn2: dittybopper: The problem isn't that the poor want to be poor. They don't, obviously. It's that they don't generally have the financial skills to help them claw their way out of poverty.

Not just financial skills - also the motivation. I have offered several people $1000.00 to get started after they go down, get a student loan, and get an associates degree. I have yet to have anyone take me up on my offer. They simply don't want to leave their comfort zone and blame others for the shortcomings in their life while yes, buying a pack of smokes and a lottery ticket.

It is OK to have poor people, wealthy, and everything in between and why this country feels otherwise is ridiculous. We need people to work at McDonalds, do our dry cleaning etc. We are all wired to do something in life and we should not reward those who are wired to mooch and take from others - especially those who do get offered jobs and turn them down because they would not make as much as they do from Welfare and hand outs.


You as well... cockpunch.
 
2012-09-01 12:55:01 AM  

pinchpoint: I'm 9 hours into a 20 hour shift (ya rly) and I get to come back tomorrow for 16. I'm not poor but I'm not exactly rolling in dough either. Fark this lady.


Worked 16 yesterday, 12 today, will work 13 Sat, 11 Sun, and an undetermined amount Mon. Most of that goes to keeping my head above water. Cockpunches all around.

/not drunk
//yet..
 
2012-09-01 12:58:00 AM  

signaljammer: Bill Gates grew up in one of two communities, as I did in the other, that made computers available to students at the time. His father was a patent attorney who was able to keep Microsoft private up to the 286 gen on his own dime. His mother was on the board of the Red Cross along with the president of IBM, so he got the contract for the PC OS. Sweat of his brow.


Just like Zuckerburg attended Harvard. He is definitely not a self made man.
 
2012-09-01 12:59:50 AM  

Icetech3: I agree with this guy 100%.. I grew up in detroit, had nothing.. i work 70 hours a week.. i don't believe in drinking and partying and i now have a good bank account and a nice house and a pretty good life.. just takes hard work.


It's too bad you don't read.
 
2012-09-01 01:12:42 AM  

plcow: vpb: That's comical. No one gets rich from hard work. You can inherit it, you can steal it, you can exploit flaws in the financial system, you can get lucky in the stock market (assuming you have a lot of money to invest in the first place), win the lottery etc. Working won't do it for you, working makes other people rich.

Besides, it is interesting to me that the wealthy people who think this way are almost always people who inherited their money. People like Warren Buffett seem to have more of a grasp of reality, since they actually had to do something to make their money.

Bullsh*t, it takes work. Some people have better starting advantages than others, but it always takes work. There are almost as many geniuses on welfare than millionaires. The only thing that is assured is that if you play on Fark, or Skyrim, or get high all day is that you will NEVER become wealthy.

I work a 7-5 during all day, business network 2-3 nights a week, and probably spend 2-4 hrs a night trying to find ways to save money or boost my income. I have been doing this for several years (sometimes spending 6+ hrs at night for weeks at a time). I am just now in my 30's, I will become wealthy, and if I don't I will keep trying. I want the freedom of not being tied to a 9-5 or relying on other people for my safety and the safety of my family, and I will fight and work and do whatever it takes to get it. People think I am smart, and I can assure you I am not, I have just WORKed my ass off compared to other people, and other people look at me and think there must be some kind of short cut to get where I am at. Most people can't even comprehend doing what I do, much less do it. And this is because limitations set in their own minds, mostly by making excuses like you did.

Another problem that I commonly see, is that many people have WAY too high of expectations for what the return for their work should be. You work 10 hours and expect $100, you put your money into the stock market and ...


While I agree with much of what you said, I think you are stuck in the grind with the rest of us, and just haven't realized it yet.
 
2012-09-01 01:17:53 AM  

T.M.S.: All but one billionaire I know started with nothing. All but one of them made their money in television.

I advise working in television.


Yep. Entertainment is one of the highest yeilding products of America. That said, if we don't create a living standard for all workers, who will mow our yards or clean/fix our septic tanks? If we don't assure the man who takes that job a livible wage or guaranteed advancement, we might as well create a slave class. That is what is happening now.
 
2012-09-01 01:30:48 AM  

Barnstormer: "parlaying a multi-million dollar inheritance" isn't hard work.

"If you have a hundred dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten, that's work. If you have a hundred million dollars and want to make it a hundred and ten million, that's inevitable" (source unknown)


This is where capitalism breaks down.
 
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