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(Sports Illustrated)   Butthurt ex-Penn State profs are butthurt   (sportsillustrated.cnn.com) divider line 103
    More: Stupid, Penn State, NCAA, Tim Curley, Mike McQueary, NCAA sanctions, graduate assistant, Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky  
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3414 clicks; posted to Sports » on 29 Aug 2012 at 11:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-29 02:13:27 PM

Dr_luckyz: This isn't snarky, but what do you think is an appropriate punishment? I don't get why we never hear this complaint when schools lose scholarships for smaller violations, but i hear non-stop now how the players shouldn't be hurt for something they didn't do?


I don't have a problem with the vacated wins - it's an FU to Joe but so be it. He farked up.

I don't have a problem with the $60 million fine - on the basis some good comes of it.

I don't have a problem with probation - Penn State has never had a compliance problem in regards to athletics so I'm not concerned about future violations of NCAA bylaws.

I don't believe that I have a big problem with the scholarship reductions - this is the most punishing part. It certainly will hurt.

I do have a problem with the bowl ban - on the basis I would have required bowl money to go along with the fine - ie the school could not benefit financially from participating but the current players would have the opportunity to go.

I do have a problem with the immediate transfer offer - seems like a perversion of "amateur" athletics to have opposing schools coaches crawling all over town and campus trying to poach players. 

I do believe the NCAA should have conducted its own investigation even if they came to the same conclusions. I do believe the NCAA should have followed its established procedures in handing down sanctions. And I do believe that if I were negotiating and a four year death penalty was threatened I'd tell them to fark off and I'd see them in court. The last thing the NCAA wants is judicial review of its powers.
 
2012-08-29 02:18:53 PM

Negligible: How can you punish a program without punishing the student-athletes? You can't. How can you punish the athletic department and insulate the academic programs from financial liability? You can't. This is what you sign up to when you create an academic institution that contains an athletic program so big that it becomes the focal point of the university. In the Freeh report it even states that they didn't report Sandusky because of a culture that wanted to protect the reputation of the program and university as a whole no matter the cost. It's nice to see that these professors and yourself are proving that report to be true.


Since nuance doesn't seem to be your strong suit I'll explain it a little clearer.

The student athletes who are present today did not gain any advantage as a result of the inaction of the administration. You can punish the program without punishing the athletes present today through monetary fines and reductions of FUTURE scholarships.

Further, if you had some semblance of reading comprehension, you would have found that I am all for full disclosure and believe that the best course of action in 2001 would have been to report Sandusky to law enforcement and kick him off campus - but you are right about one thing, not only would it have been the right thing to do but it would have preserved the standing and reputation of the university as there would not have been a cover up.
 
2012-08-29 02:23:38 PM

slykens1: I do have a problem with the immediate transfer offer - seems like a perversion of "amateur" athletics to have opposing schools coaches crawling all over town and campus trying to poach players.


If we're going to pile on the NCAA for punishing the current students and student-athletes (which they always do, let's face it), then it's only fair if they did not grant immediate transfer status to PSU players then they'd be called out as assholes for that as well.

Plus, everything the NCAA has done over the past decade has seemed like a perversion of amateur athletics, honestly.
 
2012-08-29 02:24:59 PM

slykens1: I don't have a problem with the $60 million fine - on the basis some good comes of it.


The problem with the $60m fine is the mandate that it can't come from the Athletic department. Which is basically the NCAA saying, "You need to pay money to satisfy us, but it can't hurt anything that helps keep our own payroll going."
 
2012-08-29 02:30:39 PM

Killer Cars: Plus, everything the NCAA has done over the past decade has seemed like a perversion of amateur athletics, honestly.


The NCAA's primary goal is to serve as a AAA club for the NFL and NBA. Same with any Div I school's athletic department.

Academics and anything related to what a institute of higher education is actually for is a far distant second.

On the grade change comment, I figure that's a shot at North Carolina.
 
2012-08-29 02:30:40 PM

slykens1: I do have a problem with the immediate transfer offer - seems like a perversion of "amateur" athletics to have opposing schools coaches crawling all over town and campus trying to poach players.


transfer without penalties should always be allowed when a school is punished by the ncaa (it usually is) or if the coach leaves. actually fark conditions, it should just always be allowed. penn state doesn't own those players. if they want to go to school elsewhere, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so?
 
2012-08-29 02:32:45 PM

slykens1: Further, if you had some semblance of reading comprehension, you would have found that I am all for full disclosure and believe that the best course of action in 2001 would have been to report Sandusky to law enforcement and kick him off campus - but you are right about one thing, not only would it have been the right thing to do but it would have preserved the standing and reputation of the university as there would not have been a cover up.


Which seems all too obvious, especially for bureaucrats and people who otherwise don't have much affiliation with the football program. So, we have two differing schools of thought: One of which believes that Joe Paterno had so much power that he stopped state agencies from investigating accusations in the '90s, that he got Sandusky emeritus status after he fired him, and that he ensured that the other people involved wouldn't tell the cops. The other one believes that the actual scandal probably extends beyond Penn State and probably doesn't have anything to do with football - rather involves people who donated to Sandusky's "charity" and had ties to PSU who also held high-level state positions.

What's weird is that the people that blame Paterno accuse the other people of elevating him to godlike, when their opinion seems to be that he was.
 
2012-08-29 02:34:09 PM

TheOther: Forget that 4-year death penalty crap and boot PSU from the NCAA completely.


You know, I've been wondering about that: what if the NCAA had just simply said, "Penn State is no longer an NCAA member school. PSU athletic programs are no longer entitled to the benefits of NCAA membership."? Could the NCAA sanction programs that scheduled games against PSU, or would that be a violation of anti-trust laws? Could they say, "You can play against PSU, but we won't count those games; it will be just like you had an open date on your calendar."?

And if the NCAA threw out Penn State, could PSU be the foundation of a new, "rogue", college athletic organization? Could PSU go to some of the other schools that have had problems with the NCAA and say, "Hey, come join us. Our regulations are much looser. You can pay players. You can offer more scholarships. Etc."?
 
2012-08-29 02:41:09 PM

Unauthorized Bratwurst: You know, I've been wondering about that: what if the NCAA had just simply said, "Penn State is no longer an NCAA member school. PSU athletic programs are no longer entitled to the benefits of NCAA membership."? Could the NCAA sanction programs that scheduled games against PSU, or would that be a violation of anti-trust laws? Could they say, "You can play against PSU, but we won't count those games; it will be just like you had an open date on your calendar."?


As an NCAA member you are not generally permitted to play non-members competitively.

Had this been the NCAA's action there would have been anti-trust litigation brought against the NCAA that likely would have completely neutered it.

Remember, the NCAA lost an anti-trust lawsuit in 1984 in regards to TV rights. I'm pretty comfortable another anti-trust lawsuit would have the same result which is why I believe the NCAA structured the sanctions as a consent decree void of appeals.
 
2012-08-29 02:49:54 PM

Spade: slykens1: I don't have a problem with the $60 million fine - on the basis some good comes of it.

The problem with the $60m fine is the mandate that it can't come from the Athletic department. Which is basically the NCAA saying, "You need to pay money to satisfy us, but it can't hurt anything that helps keep our own payroll going."


I think the reason for that mandate was to prevent PSU from shutting down umpteen other sports to pay the fine, which would screw over the kids in those programs. I'd say that interferes with the NCAA's revenue stream too, but I doubt they make that much on Penn State basketball or wrestling.
 
2012-08-29 03:06:23 PM

Meatschool: Spade: slykens1: I don't have a problem with the $60 million fine - on the basis some good comes of it.

The problem with the $60m fine is the mandate that it can't come from the Athletic department. Which is basically the NCAA saying, "You need to pay money to satisfy us, but it can't hurt anything that helps keep our own payroll going."

I think the reason for that mandate was to prevent PSU from shutting down umpteen other sports to pay the fine, which would screw over the kids in those programs. I'd say that interferes with the NCAA's revenue stream too, but I doubt they make that much on Penn State basketball or wrestling.


Which then says that those "umpteen other sports" are still more important in the NCAA's eyes than any academic program that might see its budget impacted by the fine. Which shows the importance the NCAA places on academics (this can also be seen at North Carolina).
 
2012-08-29 03:09:23 PM

Spade: Which shows the importance the NCAA places on academics (this can also be seen at North Carolina).


Good point.
 
2012-08-29 03:12:59 PM

Meatschool: Spade: Which shows the importance the NCAA places on academics (this can also be seen at North Carolina).

Good point.


So the National Collegiate Athletics Association is primarily concerned with governing athletics?
 
2012-08-29 03:24:56 PM

mikaloyd: I bet Lasaga and Hiroshi Ohmoto sogned on to the complaint too.


I'm sure they had the full support of Neisworth.

You know PSU faculty, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.

static.thecia.com.au
 
2012-08-29 03:27:26 PM

IAmRight: Meatschool: Spade: Which shows the importance the NCAA places on academics (this can also be seen at North Carolina).

Good point.

So the National Collegiate Athletics Association is primarily concerned with governing athletics?


Of course they are, but certainly they must be considering academics at some point... else it wouldn't matter what grades the students have at all, would it? (Unless I'm mistaken and academic eligibility, etc is determined entirely by the member school and not the NCAA, in which case never mind).
 
2012-08-29 03:33:24 PM

IAmRight: Meatschool: Spade: Which shows the importance the NCAA places on academics (this can also be seen at North Carolina).

Good point.

So the National Collegiate Athletics Association is primarily concerned with governing athletics?


If they're totally unconnected with academics, the primary purpose of a college or university, then they shouldn't be affiliated with colleges at all.

Which is what I'd like, personally. But I'm also a fan of banning athletic scholarships.
 
2012-08-29 03:34:09 PM
It's funny how few people understand that "Organizations" are punished monitarily all of the time for the actions of individuals in them. Join the real world. Penn St. got what it deserved from the NCAA and the law suits will likely give the victims some type of large monetary settlement too...Good for them.

And since the President of the University was involved in the cover up, then it actually reaches outside of the Athletic Deparment itself...No one outside of Penn St employees made this more of an issue than it should have been had it been squashed initially.
 
2012-08-29 03:34:24 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism:
img.gawkerassets.com


We already knew tOSU fans liked to get buggered.

This is not a surprise.
 
2012-08-29 03:47:45 PM

LesserEvil: antidisestablishmentarianism:
[img.gawkerassets.com image 640x360]

We already knew tOSU fans liked to get buggered.

This is not a surprise.


Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?
 
2012-08-29 03:55:37 PM

Spade: If they're totally unconnected with academics, the primary purpose of a college or university, then they shouldn't be affiliated with colleges at all.


There are no 40,000-member institutions with one singular purpose, and to propose elimination of everything not working toward one particular goal.
 
2012-08-29 03:56:01 PM

JohnBigBootay: Tough call. If I'd been a prof there for twenty years, didn't give two shiats about football (and let's face it, there's tons of profs like that at every school) and knew damn well I gave players no preferential treatment I would probably be pissed and want to say something about it. Then again if I were a prof I'd probably be pretty smart and realize that the public sentiment was against any kind of defense in this matter and I'd realize I was just pissing into the wind anyway.


If I was a prof I'd be thankful that they didn't investigate the entire school's administration, faculty, and staff after Sandusky, Lasaga, and Neisworth.

/seriously, PSU, you need to STFU and just go away for a while
 
2012-08-29 03:58:01 PM

IAmRight: Spade: If they're totally unconnected with academics, the primary purpose of a college or university, then they shouldn't be affiliated with colleges at all.

There are no 40,000-member institutions with one singular purpose, and to propose elimination of everything not working toward one particular goal.


Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

www.hotel-online.com

/PSU got a wrist slap only because it was a university
 
2012-08-29 04:01:06 PM

beta_plus: Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

www.hotel-online.com

/PSU got a wrist slap only because it was a university


If PSU goes out of business because students stop applying your analogy will improve.

I wouldn't hold your breath.
 
2012-08-29 04:08:48 PM

beta_plus: Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

[www.hotel-online.com image 225x105]


I'm supposed to tell them that in a large organization, there are many different facets of the business with many different jobs? Or were you meaning to quote another post?

In any case, no agency forced AA to close their doors. The people lost their jobs because no one wanted to hire the organization, which meant there was no money to pay anyone. People still want to go to PSU, so your comparison is completely irrelevant.

/not that relevancy or thought really has anything to do with most of the "punish MOAR" crowd
 
2012-08-29 04:12:10 PM

IAmRight: beta_plus: Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

[www.hotel-online.com image 225x105]

I'm supposed to tell them that in a large organization, there are many different facets of the business with many different jobs? Or were you meaning to quote another post?

In any case, no agency forced AA to close their doors. The people lost their jobs because no one wanted to hire the organization, which meant there was no money to pay anyone. People still want to go to PSU, so your comparison is completely irrelevant.

/not that relevancy or thought really has anything to do with most of the "punish MOAR" crowd


Who is forcing PSU to close it's doors?
 
2012-08-29 04:15:42 PM

IAmRight: In any case, no agency forced AA to close their doors. The people lost their jobs because no one wanted to hire the organization, which meant there was no money to pay anyone. People still want to go to PSU, so your comparison is completely irrelevant.


A lot of the people probably didn't even lose their jobs. Big parts of the company were parted out and sold to other companies to wash the stink off and kept operating more or less as before.
 
2012-08-29 04:20:04 PM

beta_plus: LesserEvil: antidisestablishmentarianism:
[img.gawkerassets.com image 640x360]

We already knew tOSU fans liked to get buggered.

This is not a surprise.

Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?


No, I'm not into that sort of thing, myself. Just saying we already knew Buckeye fans liked that sort of thing. Something to do with their overpowering love of nuts.
 
2012-08-29 04:22:19 PM

ongbok: Who is forcing PSU to close it's doors?


No one. No one said they were. But again, your side makes stupid comparisons, then acts as though pointing out how stupid those comparisons are is asserting something else. Nah, we're just saying you're stupid.
 
2012-08-29 04:24:15 PM
Holy crap. Dr. Pytel was the Dean of the College of Engineering back when I was at PSU. Nice lady, too. She helped me through a lot of administrative issues. I can't believe she signed on to this nonsense. For one thing, the Freeh Report doesn't accuse Penn State of putting football above academics, just above the university's normal rules and, of course, the laws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the United States. For another, it looks like the fine won't hit Penn State's academic side. They're using the athletics reserve fund and capital maintenance budget to pay for it. So they'll have to hold off on some building renovations; boo friggin' hoo.
 
2012-08-29 04:43:40 PM

IAmRight: ongbok: Who is forcing PSU to close it's doors?

No one. No one said they were. But again, your side makes stupid comparisons, then acts as though pointing out how stupid those comparisons are is asserting something else. Nah, we're just saying you're stupid.


We are stupid because we realize that when people in an organization makes decisions that causes an organization to break the law, that people that were never involved in those decisions are negatively impacted along with the ones that made the decisions?

See people like you are stupid because you want everything to go away no harm no foul because PSU football and the schools reputation will be effected. Then you are using the lie that the people want to punish PSU only because they are jealous of the success of the school and think everybody associated with the school supports child rape to hide the real reason why you don't want the school to be sanctioned.
 
2012-08-29 04:44:35 PM

LesserEvil: beta_plus: LesserEvil: antidisestablishmentarianism:
[img.gawkerassets.com image 640x360]

We already knew tOSU fans liked to get buggered.

This is not a surprise.

Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?

No, I'm not into that sort of thing, myself. Just saying we already knew Buckeye fans liked that sort of thing. Something to do with their overpowering love of nuts.


I don't think Sandusky's victims were into that sort of thing either.
 
2012-08-29 04:45:18 PM

slykens1: Dr_luckyz: This isn't snarky, but what do you think is an appropriate punishment? I don't get why we never hear this complaint when schools lose scholarships for smaller violations, but i hear non-stop now how the players shouldn't be hurt for something they didn't do?

I don't have a problem with the vacated wins - it's an FU to Joe but so be it. He farked up.

I don't have a problem with the $60 million fine - on the basis some good comes of it.

I don't have a problem with probation - Penn State has never had a compliance problem in regards to athletics so I'm not concerned about future violations of NCAA bylaws.

I don't believe that I have a big problem with the scholarship reductions - this is the most punishing part. It certainly will hurt.

I do have a problem with the bowl ban - on the basis I would have required bowl money to go along with the fine - ie the school could not benefit financially from participating but the current players would have the opportunity to go.

I do have a problem with the immediate transfer offer - seems like a perversion of "amateur" athletics to have opposing schools coaches crawling all over town and campus trying to poach players. 

I do believe the NCAA should have conducted its own investigation even if they came to the same conclusions. I do believe the NCAA should have followed its established procedures in handing down sanctions. And I do believe that if I were negotiating and a four year death penalty was threatened I'd tell them to fark off and I'd see them in court. The last thing the NCAA wants is judicial review of its powers.


I don't understand how any of this makes any sense. You don't wan't the current players to be punished yet you're against the immediate transfer offer? You don't want the current players to be punished because they had nothing to do with it but you're okay with the past players having their victories and championships nullified even though they had nothing to do with it?

I don't think you get it, the football program is being punished. It is impossible to punish the football program at Penn State without also punishing the people who take part in the football program. So you punish the fark out of the football program and let players who had nothing to do with it leave if they want. That's how you achieve the goal you say you want. Instead, you're asking for the exact opposite. Force the players to stay, take away their scholarships and cut their playing budget by $12 million a year for 5 years. Man, you're kinda a dick.
 
2012-08-29 04:46:46 PM

ongbok: See people like you are stupid because you want everything to go away no harm no foul because PSU football and the schools reputation will be effected.


Number of people that have said that: Zero.
 
2012-08-29 04:46:51 PM

WTF Indeed: You also can't seem to grasp the idea that while those connected to Penn State are outraged at the actions profiled in the Freed Report, they are also insulted at the insinuation that the entire PSU school is filled with people who support pedophiles.


This.
 
2012-08-29 04:48:39 PM

IAmRight: beta_plus: Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

[www.hotel-online.com image 225x105]

I'm supposed to tell them that in a large organization, there are many different facets of the business with many different jobs? Or were you meaning to quote another post?

In any case, no agency forced AA to close their doors. The people lost their jobs because no one wanted to hire the organization, which meant there was no money to pay anyone. People still want to go to PSU, so your comparison is completely irrelevant.

/not that relevancy or thought really has anything to do with most of the "punish MOAR" crowd


Their clients "voluntarily" left because AA had their legal ability to audit revoked, but let's not let troubling things like "facts" get in the way.

The simple fact is that if a corporation had done what PSU did in multiple departments you would be screaming for its destruction. You're only giving it a pass because it's a university.
 
2012-08-29 04:50:39 PM

beta_plus: The simple fact is that if a corporation had done what PSU did in multiple departments you would be screaming for its destruction. You're only giving it a pass because it's a university.


Meh, not really. I'm fine with the people that knew (and didn't tell) doing jail time. I just don't have the bloodlust for vengeance that people seem to.
 
2012-08-29 05:28:06 PM

IAmRight: ongbok: See people like you are stupid because you want everything to go away no harm no foul because PSU football and the schools reputation will be effected.

Number of people that have said that: Zero.


Did you read the rest of what I posted? If you did you would see that I said that this is why you don't want PSU punished, and to hide this you trot out all of these other ridiculous lies about why people want the school sanctioned.
 
2012-08-29 05:39:01 PM
The Penn State folks should count themselves lucky that the NCAA didn't have the guts to do the right thing and impose the death penalty. They have no standing whatsoever to complain, having already gotten off far too easy for blatantly unethical reasons.
 
2012-08-29 05:56:02 PM

beta_plus: LesserEvil: beta_plus: LesserEvil: antidisestablishmentarianism:
[img.gawkerassets.com image 640x360]

We already knew tOSU fans liked to get buggered.

This is not a surprise.

Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?

No, I'm not into that sort of thing, myself. Just saying we already knew Buckeye fans liked that sort of thing. Something to do with their overpowering love of nuts.

I don't think Sandusky's victims were into that sort of thing either.


I don't think so either. I don't think any of his victims were Buckeye fans.
 
2012-08-29 06:22:56 PM

IAmRight: beta_plus: The simple fact is that if a corporation had done what PSU did in multiple departments you would be screaming for its destruction. You're only giving it a pass because it's a university.

Meh, not really. I'm fine with the people that knew (and didn't tell) doing jail time. I just don't have the bloodlust for vengeance that people seem to.


It isn't bloodlust or vengeance though, it is a message to the organization and the other NCAA member organizations that if they cover up heinous crimes, they will be severely punished. Or to put it another way, they are setting a precedent.
 
2012-08-29 06:29:00 PM
CNN SI is reporting that allllll those shiny trophies have to be returned

/ ohsnap.jpg
 
2012-08-29 07:31:23 PM

WTF Indeed: You do realize that the Freed Report did not show any on field violations, which is the only thing the NCAA can legislate.


You do realize this is not true.
 
2012-08-29 09:14:29 PM

LesserEvil: Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?

No, I'm not into that sort of thing, myself.


Are you suggesting that the victims were "into that sort of thing"?
 
2012-08-29 09:46:13 PM

srhp29: LesserEvil: Wow, you sound butthurt. Did you have too many shower sessions with Sandusky?

No, I'm not into that sort of thing, myself.

Are you suggesting that the victims were "into that sort of thing"?


Nope, that's why they are "victims".

I do not believe any of the victims were Buckeye fans. What Sandusky did to those children was horrendous... and Penn State was LUCKY to get out of this without worse punishment. Their faculty needs to STFU and GBTW.

This whole comment stream started because of a tOSU fan shirt stating they'd rather shower with Sandusky than cheer for the Wolverines. I do not find that surprising, given how much they love nuts.

Please try and keep up, if you are going to inject yourself into a discussion.
 
2012-08-29 10:40:39 PM

LesserEvil: inject yourself


LOL, given the context of the thread.
 
2012-08-29 11:40:39 PM

lacrossestar83: Fark this "adjective noun is adjective" meme.

/and Penn State


Butthurt meme haters are butthurt, haters.

:-)
 
2012-08-29 11:46:33 PM
i172.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-30 12:00:07 AM

IAmRight: beta_plus: Tell that to the guys who used to work here:

[www.hotel-online.com image 225x105]

I'm supposed to tell them that in a large organization, there are many different facets of the business with many different jobs? Or were you meaning to quote another post?

In any case, no agency forced AA to close their doors. The people lost their jobs because no one wanted to hire the organization, which meant there was no money to pay anyone. People still want to go to PSU, so your comparison is completely irrelevant.

/not that relevancy or thought really has anything to do with most of the "punish MOAR" crowd


You used to come off as the devil's advocate, and now you're just a troll. Welcome to ignore!
 
2012-08-30 01:16:54 AM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: lacrossestar83: Fark this "adjective noun is adjective" meme.

/and Penn State

Butthurt meme haters are butthurt, haters.

:-)


[FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.jpg]
 
2012-08-30 09:43:15 AM

LeafyGreens: You used to come off as the devil's advocate, and now you're just a troll. Welcome to ignore!


Someone I've never seen post is ignoring me! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
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