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(WOKV Jacksonville)   Store customer with a concealed weapons permit attempts to stop a robbery. He wounds bystanders and gets into a shootout with police when they think he's the robber. Just kidding. He shot the robber dead and the police thanked him   (wokv.com) divider line 755
    More: Hero, concealed firearm, bystanders, Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, dollar stores, North Side, robbery  
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20050 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Aug 2012 at 5:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-29 08:50:48 AM

cassanovascotian: yeah, so ... I'm gonna go ahead and say that guns have a lot to do with it.


so you're equating the prevalence of gangs and organized crime in the United States with that of Canada

"no, I'm not"

well your graph and your line of argumentation would be worthless without doing it, so I'll save you the trouble.

On to my main point, your opinion is worthless because you're equating two vastly different scenarios while claiming the firearm itself is the primary variable affecting gun related deaths. Begone buffoon, begone.
 
2012-08-29 08:51:20 AM

doglover: themeaningoflifeisnot: Dd either of the robbers display a firearm? The article doesn't mention anything about that.

Who cares?

Robbery is robbery. You should expect a little involuntary trepanning if you engage in the activity.


Obviously you seem to have forgotten that progressives believe OSHA standards shoud be extended to criminal activity. Shouldn't criminals have a safe work environment? An armed private citizenry under no requirement to retreat when their lives and or property are threatened create a hostile and dangerous work environment for much of their constituency.
 
2012-08-29 08:51:24 AM

quatchi: Relatively Obscure: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Who robs a Dollar General!?!?

Fifty Cent?

Lawls! ^_^

I'm pro gun, pro 2nd amendment and pro CC but I too would like to know what, if anything, these two robbers were armed with before qualifying this guy as any kind of hero. 

"There was a citizen who had a concealed firearms permit that was inside the store as a customer," says Lt. Schoonover. "He fired at the suspect, striking him and killing him." + "There are no charges pending against the customer." =/= "the police thanked him" but hey, welcome to Fark headlines and all that.

/Why don't we have more stories about corduroy pillows?


We dont have stories about coduroy pillows cause they always making new headlines...
 
2012-08-29 08:51:40 AM

cassanovascotian: -the only major difference being gun control legislation....


sigh.. ok, income inequality and poverty rates are the other big relevent difference. Nevertheless the difference is pretty striking.
 
2012-08-29 08:51:49 AM

MayoBoy: DingleberryMoose: The Muthaship: Loaded Six String: failed by society

Oh lord....

No, there's something to this. The welfare system we have in place in the US tends to encourage long-term dependency, fails to encourage paternal involvement with children, and rewards bastardy with increased welfare checks to the mother. We, as a society, have failed in our efforts because we have an idiotic welfare system which needs a major redesign.

Where in the article does it say that he or his family was on welfare or are you just assuming this because he is was black?


I haven't read any articles indicating the race of the dead perp. Where did you get said information, or are you inferring it?

Also, I was referring to my experience in my time as a social worker. I saw the cycle above repeated over and over among people of different races. As I worked in a majority Hispanic area, I saw it more among Hispanics. If I'd worked in a majority white or black area, I'd likely have seen it more among whites or blacks because welfare failure much more closely related to socioeconomic status than it is to race.
 
2012-08-29 08:51:50 AM

cassanovascotian: Loaded Six String: Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Sure, Let's do that. Comparisons against Europe would involve cultural differences, so that complicates things, but Canada and the US are pretty similar -the only major difference being gun control legislation.... and what's the result?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x615]

yeah, so ... I'm gonna go ahead and say that guns have a lot to do with it.


Alright, while you're at it, how about some data comparing and contrasting the socioeconomic and population distribution demographics of Canada vs. the US, the related incidents of crime of all types and flavors, etc?

Because, of course, all of the identified factors that play a part in crime statistics and homicides (drugs, gang membership, poverty, etc.) have absolutely no major bearing on the numbers, right?

Would you be surprised, then, that a mapping of homicides in the US shows that homicide rates tend to be vastly higher in urban, poverty-stricken areas that equally show higher cases of drug abuse, rape, assault, theft, etc?

It's almost as if areas where criminal organizations thrive tend to have higher cases of violent crimes...
 
2012-08-29 08:52:39 AM

The Muthaship: Loaded Six String: failed by society

Oh lord....


Care to elaborate? A societal structure which does not attempt to rehabilitate criminals, treats substance addiction as a crime rather than an illness, continually reduces the ability to elevate one's economic status, treats pissing in public on par with sexual assault, among others, has in my opinion failed society as a whole based on these actions.
 
2012-08-29 08:52:46 AM

cassanovascotian: Canada and the US are pretty similar -the only major difference being gun control legislation...


www.lolwut.com
 
2012-08-29 08:53:07 AM

Shadowtag: I thought the point of the headline was more about how this guy handled this type of situation better than the NYPD.


This is pretty much what I read. The rest of the bandwagon of derp in the thread would have happened no matter what the headline said.

/don't really care about gun laws or carry laws
//used to be in favor. Then I realized most of the people around me I wouldn't trust in a vehicular emergency, much less an armed conflict.
 
2012-08-29 08:53:09 AM

galibert: doglover: themeaningoflifeisnot: Dd either of the robbers display a firearm? The article doesn't mention anything about that.

Who cares?

Robbery is robbery. You should expect a little involuntary trepanning if you engage in the activity.

Yay! Death penalty for peeing in the bushes too?


If you threaten to kill an innocent person, you shouldn't be surprised if you receive a counter offer.

Robbery is not peeing in the bushes.
 
2012-08-29 08:53:15 AM

Fibro: "They will pin the dead coon on the coon that got away"


Colorful vernacular aside, that is how the law would view it.
 
2012-08-29 08:53:31 AM

Bruce Campbell: jafiwam: Generally, what we call "mass shootings" occur in places where only unlawful gun possession would have a gun there. At least the large and 'successful' shootings such as John Holmes in Colorado tend to be.

That dude murdered some ass in his day.


Yeah, well, spreading AIDS does that.
 
2012-08-29 08:54:41 AM

USP .45: Begone buffoon, begone.


gosh, gun advocates are always raising the level of intellectual discourse ....

USP .45: so you're equating the prevalence of gangs and organized crime in the United States with that of Canada

per capita?

yeah. why not?
 
2012-08-29 08:55:02 AM
Fibro

Choice comments from the the news article:

"nice shot, thats one more ghetto gopher that wont be voting for obama this november!"

"A black male! What a shocker. One of the many reasons why I carry a gun everywhere I go."

"Great Shot Gramps.....One Less Pavement Ape To Clog Up The Courts With. Now Go Cap The Other Chimp."

"They were trying to rob a Dollar General Store? What a couple of idiots!" ((This guy asserts that they were a couple. How could he possibly know that?))

"There will be one less gorilla in the mist now! WTG pops!"

"They will pin the dead coon on the coon that got away" 


Makes it much easier to make broad generalizations about the populations of certain states.
 
2012-08-29 08:55:06 AM

kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...


So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.
 
2012-08-29 08:55:28 AM

themeaningoflifeisnot: Kit Fister: Silly Jesus: themeaningoflifeisnot: dropdfun: themeaningoflifeisnot: I wonder what most cops would say if you asked them what an armed civilian should do when faced with TWO armed robbers holding someone at gunpoint with other people in the store? I would bet that "take them both on yourself" would not be considered a prudent decision.

Sorry to disappoint but I would tell them to do so if circumstances allowed for it. Better for there to be two dead criminals then one dead clerk and one dead witness to the shooting of the clerk. I know my brother who is also in law enforcement would say the same, both were law abiding concealed carrying before entering law enforcement.

You know different cops than I do. Most armed robberies do not end in murder and one civilian not trained like law enforcement to take on multiple armed attackers with innocent lives at risk is far from an optimal situation. It worked out this time because the second robber did not open fire, but few cops I know would say that the best choice in this situation is for one civilian to take on two armed opponents, unless there was no other alternative.

A gun pointed at the clerk is an imminent threat. Every cop that I know would say to do what you feel is appropriate in such a situation. Cops are familiar with armchair quarterbacks with 20/20 hindsight and realize that the best person to assess the situation is the person in it. If there is a safe shot and the robber has the clerk at gunpoint, I don't know any cop that would advise against saving the life of the clerk.

Adding to that, four swat officers, 8 patrol deputies, three FBI agents, and an ATF supervisor all agree that in this case, the guy was justified. That's the limit of the number of people I could call before getting into the office today and ask their opinions.

It's not a question as to whether the civilian was justified. Of course he was based on the facts reported. Thats an easy call that every cop would agree wit ...


You think wrong.
 
2012-08-29 08:56:09 AM

Cinaed: Loaded Six String: Cinaed: Loaded Six String: ...and being that there is no effective rehabilitation program in place

And whose fault would that be, I wonder?

The creators of our judicial system who based it on puritanical values of punishment rather than rehabilitation?

And we can't fix that? We can't correct that? We can't educate them? We can't attempt to give them options beyond 'steal shiat, beat up people, etc'?

Granted, it might require some money, some people, and a willingness to look at people on the fringes of society with something other than disdain.

I am a firm believer in the idea that how we treat the least among us showcases just how Just and Righteous we truly are. A shame we don't nearly meet the self-image.


Ask your representatives for that change.
Right now we're choosing between mandatory abortions for everyone or turning the Smithsonian into a creationist museum.

It would be nice if there were actual choices on the ballot, but the herp-derp is just too strong these days.
 
2012-08-29 08:56:23 AM

cassanovascotian: Loaded Six String: Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Sure, Let's do that. Comparisons against Europe would involve cultural differences, so that complicates things, but Canada and the US are pretty similar -the only major difference being gun control legislation.... and what's the result?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x615]

yeah, so ... I'm gonna go ahead and say that guns have a lot to do with it.


And what of the social structures between these two countries? With universal health care in Canada, how is drug addiction and use treated when compared to the US? How is the welfare system different? Poverty levels? Every single root cause of violent crime? I'm going to go ahead and say that no, the guns don't have a lot to do with it.
 
2012-08-29 08:57:41 AM
Loaded Six String I can't believe how many people are going to claim that the armed customer shot the armed robber in defense of the store's money. It actually boggles my mind.

Second.

I live in Dallas. There have been some horrendously awful robberies here in recent memory. Evening news showed some quite disturbing murders take place in shops where victims showed NO ATTEMPTS AT RESISTING.

#1 scumbag walks into gas station with pistol. Clerk quickly comply but dude pops him three times in chest for NO REASON. On his way out the door there is an elderly woman pumping gas. He shoots at her for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON. Clerk suffocates on his own blood and dies.

#2 "gangsta" walks into hippie style "head shop" with pistol. Loses nerve for robbery but before leaving store fires randomly at customers. His homies are outside waiting in car and he doesn't want to lose any of his "ghetto-cred" One dead 16 year old girl.

I made my mind up after these two events. If I ever see somebody approaching me with a weapon in ANY circumstance or in ANY enviorenment that douche has exactly 1/2 sec to put me down because I will snap into "condition RED" instantly.

small penis? sure whatever...
"internet TOUGH guy"?? go ahead with that one too...
I've quick drawn twice so far. NO SHOTS FIRED. NO INCIDENT RECORDED FOR MISLEADING STATISTIC. Been carrying legal since 97. I'm NOT Dirty Harry. I am alive and safe though.
 
2012-08-29 08:58:33 AM

Cinaed: Loaded Six String: Cinaed: Loaded Six String: ...and being that there is no effective rehabilitation program in place

And whose fault would that be, I wonder?

The creators of our judicial system who based it on puritanical values of punishment rather than rehabilitation?

And we can't fix that? We can't correct that? We can't educate them? We can't attempt to give them options beyond 'steal shiat, beat up people, etc'?

Granted, it might require some money, some people, and a willingness to look at people on the fringes of society with something other than disdain.

I am a firm believer in the idea that how we treat the least among us showcases just how Just and Righteous we truly are. A shame we don't nearly meet the self-image.


Personally, I would love for us to fix that. The policy on drug use and addiction alone is shameful. I was merely pointing that out as the reason why crime in this country has a tendency to beget more crime.
 
2012-08-29 09:00:05 AM

Cinaed: kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...

So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.


When they point guns in your face, professor. You have to be trolling to not understand this concept.
 
2012-08-29 09:00:07 AM

Cinaed: kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...

So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.


Do you feel that you should be able to shoot someone who has a gun to your head?
 
2012-08-29 09:00:53 AM

themeaningoflifeisnot: The question I raise is whether law enforcement would generally advise a CCW holder to open fire when outnumbered by armed opponents and innocent bystanders are at risk. I think not.


Every law enforcement officer I've worked with, trained with, or know personally have basically boiled it down to this: If you're in a situation where the choices are risk getting killed or defend yourself, you defend yourself where you have no other choice. If you see a burning building, you call the fire department and help those you can without putting yourself in grave danger. If you're *in* a burning building, you help whomever you can who are also in danger while trying to get yourself *out*.

That's the general line they've always drawn, and relating it back to the topic at hand, I think the best way to look at it is this:

If you're not in the store and you observe a robbery in progress, but are not in imminent harm yourself, you don't just barge into the store and start shooting.

If you're in a store and a guy pulls a gun and demands money from the clerk and store patrons, and an opportunity presents itself to end said situation, you end the situation, if you have a clear shot, the advantage of surprise, the guy isn't staring at you while you're fumbling your gun out, etc.

Interestingly, when asked about it, the multitude of officers also generally agree: if you're going to face an armed threat, do so with equal or overwhelming force. Attempting to disarm or otherwise stop an attacker who has a weapon already out and ready to go without completely disabling him is more risky than just shooting him and ending it if at all possible.

(And, if at all possible, know your target and what is beyond and don't take the shot if an innocent bystander is standing right behind the guy.)
 
2012-08-29 09:01:05 AM

Pribar: JRoo: [i21.photobucket.com image 300x300]

I love how your graphic lists Switzerland, where basically every male between the ages of 20 and 30 has a real honest to God assault rifle (with select fire) at home and gun ownership is pretty much on par with the US, showing its the culture not the guns, but lets go on trying to regulate the guns, not change the culture.


It's a stupid graphic but the graphic is only counting handguns.
 
2012-08-29 09:01:44 AM

Whole Wheat: Loaded Six String: Su-Su-Sudo: Yeah, sorry, I didnt see the other link where it said they had guns. Who robs a dollar store, with guns?

Someone dumb, desperate, failed by society, or all three unfortunately.

For some reason, I think that if the starving waif, left behind by society as he was, had chosen to steal groceries from Kroger instead of getting all gangsta, people wouldn't have gotten all shooty. But let's blame society.


Society isn't to blame, his actions were his. The reasons driving him to this action however, can and should be determined to see if further crime can be reduced by addressing them. It is possible to study the reasons why someone does something without claiming they are an excuse for those actions.
 
2012-08-29 09:02:17 AM

Cinaed: kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...

So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.


Another one that doesn't know the difference between penalty and consequence.
 
2012-08-29 09:03:06 AM

Whole Wheat: When they point guns in your face, professor. You have to be trolling to not understand this concept.


I'd rather understand 'why' they've got a gun to my face. For the ten bucks in my wallet? For my shoes? I don't mind losing a pair of twenty dollar sneakers if it means I don't have to kill a man.

Silly Jesus: Do you feel that you should be able to shoot someone who has a gun to your head?


Again, I'd rather know 'why'. And if the guy has a gun to my head, shooting him will probably result in him shooting me. Not sure how that benefits either party in that particular case.
 
2012-08-29 09:03:18 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Who robs a Dollar General!?!?


People who annoy you.
 
2012-08-29 09:03:32 AM

Silly Jesus: Cinaed: kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...

So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.

Do you feel that you should be able to shoot someone who has a gun to your head?


He'd be too busy pissing his pants and sucking up to the guy to think about it.
 
2012-08-29 09:03:50 AM

Su-Su-Sudo: PreMortem

violentsalvation: themeaningoflifeisnot: Dd either of the robbers display a firearm? The article doesn't mention anything about that.

So if they didn't, they are proving that a firearm is not needed to commit a violent felony, just as gun rights advocates have been saying all along. It is bad people, not bad guns. Thank you for you contribution and failed attempt at a talking point.

Outstanding, I can satisfy my bloodthirst by waiting in convenience stores in seedy neighborhoods. Just wait for someone to try and rob it with a milk crate. 

I'm just glad we have these fine old people with guns to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner waiting around. It makes me feel really safe. Actually no it doesn't. I own firearms, but I also live in California where we understand that the second worse thing you can do with a gun is shoot somebody else with it, just behind shooting yourself. Last thing we need is more RoboCop style justice, where people are murdered with impunity for crimes that don't really beg for the death penalty. Screw Florida, and Screw their gun carrying, insane population.


You do know that armed robbery entails a threat of violence and the means to carry out such a threat?

If someone says to you, 'do what I say or I will kill you.'

In the acceptable behavior spectrum, that falls well beyond the level of 'ohyou'/nuisance and falls into the 'rapist/child abuser range.

If you are killed during an armed robbery, well bye.
 
2012-08-29 09:04:19 AM

Fibro: Choice comments from the the news article:

"nice shot, thats one more ghetto gopher that wont be voting for obama this november!"

"A black male! What a shocker. One of the many reasons why I carry a gun everywhere I go."

"Great Shot Gramps.....One Less Pavement Ape To Clog Up The Courts With. Now Go Cap The Other Chimp."

"They were trying to rob a Dollar General Store? What a couple of idiots!" ((This guy asserts that they were a couple. How could he possibly know that?))

"There will be one less gorilla in the mist now! WTG pops!"

"They will pin the dead coon on the coon that got away"


This saddens me...
 
2012-08-29 09:04:37 AM
RevMark: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Who robs a Dollar General!?!?

People who annoy you.


Look, my mother in law can be an asshole at times, but I'm pretty sure she's never tried to rob a Dollar General.
 
2012-08-29 09:06:16 AM
Would gramps still be so bold to kill a guy that was only robbing the 99 cents store?
 
2012-08-29 09:06:49 AM

Cinaed: Whole Wheat: When they point guns in your face, professor. You have to be trolling to not understand this concept.

I'd rather understand 'why' they've got a gun to my face. For the ten bucks in my wallet? For my shoes? I don't mind losing a pair of twenty dollar sneakers if it means I don't have to kill a man.

Silly Jesus: Do you feel that you should be able to shoot someone who has a gun to your head?

Again, I'd rather know 'why'. And if the guy has a gun to my head, shooting him will probably result in him shooting me. Not sure how that benefits either party in that particular case.


OK, the derp is just too strong. I'll just pass on conversing with you in this thread and leave you visible in the hopes that you have something reasonable to contribute in some other thread.
 
2012-08-29 09:07:01 AM

Cinaed: Whole Wheat: When they point guns in your face, professor. You have to be trolling to not understand this concept.

I'd rather understand 'why' they've got a gun to my face. For the ten bucks in my wallet? For my shoes? I don't mind losing a pair of twenty dollar sneakers if it means I don't have to kill a man.

Silly Jesus: Do you feel that you should be able to shoot someone who has a gun to your head?

Again, I'd rather know 'why'. And if the guy has a gun to my head, shooting him will probably result in him shooting me. Not sure how that benefits either party in that particular case.


Which is why one cannot judge what happens in the situation until one is in the situation. If simply handing over the goods will solve the problem, then by all means take that route. However, that doesn't always pacify the person committing the crime, and you may end up having to defend yourself anyway.

Why do you assume that presentation of a threat automatically means people will go "ZOMG OPEN FIRE?" and not use common sense as to whether or not it's warranted, justified, and a preferable option to just handing over the TV or the sneakers?
 
2012-08-29 09:08:02 AM

cassanovascotian: cassanovascotian: -the only major difference being gun control legislation....

sigh.. ok, income inequality and poverty rates are the other big relevent difference. Nevertheless the difference is pretty striking.


Striking yes, but not damning. The prevalence of firearms does not contribute to the prevalence of crime, just as the prevalence of men does not contribute to the prevalence of sexual assault. You're focusing on something which is not a factor in the occurence of an action, rather the method of the action.
 
2012-08-29 09:08:16 AM
The 2012 Florida Statutes Justifiable Use Of Force


776.031Use of force in defense of others.-A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be

776.08Forcible felony.-"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
 
2012-08-29 09:09:01 AM
Honest question for pro gun control Farkers. If the customer with the CCL had been an off duty cop, would you still have a problem with the outcome?

/not a troll
//I know it sounds trolly
 
2012-08-29 09:10:32 AM

Loaded Six String: Whole Wheat: Loaded Six String: Su-Su-Sudo: Yeah, sorry, I didnt see the other link where it said they had guns. Who robs a dollar store, with guns?

Someone dumb, desperate, failed by society, or all three unfortunately.

For some reason, I think that if the starving waif, left behind by society as he was, had chosen to steal groceries from Kroger instead of getting all gangsta, people wouldn't have gotten all shooty. But let's blame society.

Society isn't to blame, his actions were his. The reasons driving him to this action however, can and should be determined to see if further crime can be reduced by addressing them. It is possible to study the reasons why someone does something without claiming they are an excuse for those actions.


Dammitsomuch. You just got greened. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty liberal in my thinking. I think that money is much better spent on education, prevention, and rehabilitation, than it is on incarceration and punishment. But at the moment someone is held at gunpoint, that really doesn't matter anymore.

And now for my herp-derp moment, I see that is what you were saying in the first place.
 
2012-08-29 09:10:40 AM

cassanovascotian: Loaded Six String: Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Sure, Let's do that. Comparisons against Europe would involve cultural differences, so that complicates things, but Canada and the US are pretty similar -the only major difference being gun control legislation.... and what's the result?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x615]

yeah, so ... I'm gonna go ahead and say that guns have a lot to do with it.


You need to add Mexico to that graph, since thy have some pretty strict gun control laws as well.
 
2012-08-29 09:12:00 AM

Cinaed: kim jong-un: If you threaten to kill...

So armed robbery is worthy of the death penalty then, yes?
Tell me more of what you believe people should be gunned down over.


By pointing a firearm at someone in order to steal their property, you have taken their life in your hands as well as your own. As someone earlier said, you're confusing punishment with consequence. Is it an appropriate punishment? In the judicial system, no. As a consequence, yes, as a threat to one's life may rightly be ended with deadly force.
 
2012-08-29 09:12:00 AM

themeaningoflifeisnot: violentsalvation: themeaningoflifeisnot: Dd either of the robbers display a firearm? The article doesn't mention anything about that.

So if they didn't, they are proving that a firearm is not needed to commit a violent felony, just as gun rights advocates have been saying all along. It is bad people, not bad guns. Thank you for you contribution and failed attempt at a talking point.

Wow, a little anxious that someone might undermine your hero of the hour? Of course robbery is robbery, even without a gun. Where did I say it wasn't? But a guy shooting an unarmed suspect doesn't have quite the cachet as defending life and property from an armed criminal, does it?


Agreed. If armed, nice work taking them down. If not, I think it was a bit much. An unarmed robber should be stopped, of course, but not killed.
 
2012-08-29 09:12:43 AM

puffy999: AngryDragon: The random killing sprees are usually in "gun free zones".

Yes, Jonestown was a gun free zone.


In a different country...
 
2012-08-29 09:12:59 AM
I should add that, having witnessed violent taking of life, and having been close to having to take such actions myself, doing so is not a wonderful experience at all. For having come *close* to that happening (guy threatening with a gun because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time in a bad neighborhood I didn't know about until I got there), I was sick for days and horribly depressed. It's not wonderful to consider taking a life, it's a sickening, dreadful feeling.

And actually having to do so is its own special level of hell because you've got to deal with having killed someone and the guilt/fear/depression/trauma of having done so, plus the police, the questioning, the potential of legal action and consequences of having to pay for such legal defense, the repercussions it has on your life, your relationship with family and friends...it's not pleasant.

I try my damnedest to avoid the shiat at all costs simply because I know what it's like to deal with the consequences. I also remain willing and prepared to defend myself or others should it be required of me, damned the consequences, because life has taught me that there's never a cop around when you're thrown against a wall by three guys and stabbed repeatedly, shot at, mugged, robbed, or otherwise put in grave danger.
 
2012-08-29 09:13:00 AM
violentsalvation: themeaningoflifeisnot: Dd either of the robbers display a firearm? The article doesn't mention anything about that.

So if they didn't, they are proving that a firearm is not needed to commit a violent felony, just as gun rights advocates have been saying all along. It is bad people, not bad guns. Thank you for you contribution and failed attempt at a talking point.

I know that this has been probably extensively covered, VIOLENTSALVATION, but let's be very clear about your message above. In it, you attempt to be the "pro-gun voice of reason", and more to the point, condemn others elsewhere for poor quality discussion.

However, your VERY FIRST point is based on a strawman. You state "... they are proving that a firearm is not needed to commit a violent felony, just as gun rights advocates have been saying all along." Your implication here is what --- that "gun rights opponents" have been stating that a firearm is needed to commit a violent felony? WHO says that? NOBODY. If you start the discussion with such rhetorical nonsense - and such absolutest rhetorical nonsense at that, can you see why people won't take you seriously?

Honestly, if you're going to play such rhetorical nonsense games from day 1, how can we expect to engage you in intelligent conversation about the effect of guns which intelligent people view as a STATISTICAL phenomenon? It's like the idiots who claim that strong gun laws in norway didn't stop Brevik... of course they didn't. But a little statistical analysis shows that there is a direct correlation between availability of largely unregulated guns and gun violence. Advocates like yourself like to lump all "violent crime" into one boat - citing, for example, the UK's knife crime statistics. However, the reality is that the knife crime provably leads to fewer deaths and less severe injuries.

honestly, you came to this thread defensive, edgy, and right of the bat shot from the hip with a bullshiat argument. i havent read what has transpired in the 250 posts after that, but i sure hope it's somebody with a clue giving you the what's what about dragging down the quality of debate while pretending to uphold it.
 
2012-08-29 09:13:24 AM

Callous: Another one that doesn't know the difference between penalty and consequence.


Such as 5-10 in a prison? The life long stigma of being a felon?
You'll have to explain how shooting a man down is somehow more worthy a reaction.
 
2012-08-29 09:13:30 AM
Thank god a human being was killed in the name of protecting material goods and money.
 
2012-08-29 09:13:34 AM
A man is dead over a little money and I bet the killer calls himself a Christian. As a responsible gun owner and a Christian I would not kill someone over money or property. Thou shalt not kill is not an option, it's a commandment. A gun is to protect your life. Nothing short of that is acceptable.
 
2012-08-29 09:13:37 AM

cassanovascotian: Loaded Six String: Should we find a nice infographic on how many people were killed with knives in each of these countries as well? Violent crime is violent crime regardless of the method. There is a root cause, or indeed many, and guns are not it.

Sure, Let's do that. Comparisons against Europe would involve cultural differences, so that complicates things, but Canada and the US are pretty similar -the only major difference being gun control legislation.... and what's the result?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x615]

yeah, so ... I'm gonna go ahead and say that guns have a lot to do with it.



Your point is valid, however, the numbers you show only reinforce why a regular Joe might want to carry a firearm in the first place. If this many people are being murdered I want to be prepared. I do a lot of running and when I run in the rural areas where I know there are a lot of dogs that are not in fenced yards or on leashes I carry an asp in case I am attacked. I have had to use it twice or have my legs chewed on by an angry canine.

If there were a magic button somewhere that would make all guns magically disappear then I would be ok with not having one myself. However, as long as the thugs have them I sure as hell want one too. I carry a gun because a police officer is just too damn heavy.
 
2012-08-29 09:14:29 AM

way south: Cinaed: Loaded Six String: Cinaed: Loaded Six String: ...and being that there is no effective rehabilitation program in place

And whose fault would that be, I wonder?

The creators of our judicial system who based it on puritanical values of punishment rather than rehabilitation?

And we can't fix that? We can't correct that? We can't educate them? We can't attempt to give them options beyond 'steal shiat, beat up people, etc'?

Granted, it might require some money, some people, and a willingness to look at people on the fringes of society with something other than disdain.

I am a firm believer in the idea that how we treat the least among us showcases just how Just and Righteous we truly are. A shame we don't nearly meet the self-image.

Ask your representatives for that change.
Right now we're choosing between mandatory abortions for everyone or turning the Smithsonian into a creationist museum.

It would be nice if there were actual choices on the ballot, but the herp-derp is just too strong these days.


The two party system needs a major overhauling for that to happen. Campaign contributions are tantamount to bribery, and lobbying has been perverted into roughly the same. The average citizen has little to no chance being elected to high government positions due to this croneyism. I hope to take part in changing that in the future.
 
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