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(Jerusalem Post)   Israeli court rules Israel not at fault in 2003 killing by Israeli military of non-Israeli activist Rachel Corrie   (jpost.com) divider line 265
    More: Followup, Rachel Corrie, Israelis, IDF, bulldozers, diplomacies, court ruling  
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2948 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2012 at 6:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-28 10:28:27 AM  

liam76: He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land.


I need to see this quote. But I'm still feeling this sounds like nitpicking.

liam76: We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.


For the most part, and at that time, it wasn't. I think that's really the more significant reality here, which is another reason I feel this is nitpicking.
 
2012-08-28 10:33:55 AM  

mrexcess: KellyX: Even if the flag was a perfect reproduction, the act of burning it in protest, especially in a context like this one, wouldn't somehow inherently mean that one "hates America".


I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes... If nothing I suspect it was done to be an attention whore and shine a light on the issue.
 
2012-08-28 10:40:48 AM  

Uncle Tractor: ...And they did this for no reason whatsoever, right?


Check out the UN HDI and how Gaza was treated before Israel took over. Look at the economic growth in Gaza prior to the second intifada. They did it not becasue of poor treatment, but because Israel is mostly Jewish. Other wise you would have seen similiar attacks against Israel when they were in charge and conditions were much worse.


Uncle Tractor: He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.

How can it be jewish land when 90% of the population is arab?


The areas that were all Jewish were Jewish land.


Uncle Tractor: Was Egypt part of David's Israel?


Uncle Tractor: Pulling out of Gaza was nothing but tactics. Israel will be back


So it doesn't matter to you waht Israel ever does it will always be a plot to get back Jewish land and any deal they ever makeis just a ruse.

Palesteniains elect a party that has removing all the jews from the area and that is becasue "shiat happens" and nobody should be bothered. Israel has a far right party that doesn't get elected with similiar goals and Israel is just like the Nazi's. That about sum up your derp? Becasue to be honest I am getting sick of reading it.
 
2012-08-28 10:42:50 AM  
SkunkWerks:

(snip buncha stuff I completely agree with)

"Homeland" is a pretty subjective term, you have to admit. I've lived in my home town for going on 30 years, does that make it any less a place I sentimentally identify as "my homeland" simply because ten generations of my family grew up here? How about a hundred generations? Do I qualify yet?

Good question. I wasn't born in my "homeland."

Not that I think Jews are any less deserving of a "homeland" than anyone else. In fact, it's exactly because I think this. Life is sometimes unfair like that. And if that sounds like a cop-out, well, wish-fulfillment just isn't part of how I roll. Particularly not where fulfilling one party's wish means this. At some point my practical nature wins out.

Well ... IMO countries based on ethnicity have no place in the modern world. A person can have a "homeland," but not an ethnic group. Mind you, another century or two of intermarriage and all this silliness will be a thing of the past.

Uncle Tractor: Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.

Eh, while I agree that it's become a sort of "wolf" cry in it's abundance in this day and age, I have to disagree on one rather significant basis. Words that have no meaning don't see much use in a language. It has a meaning. It's diluted perhaps, very bastardized, and certainly not what you or I might like it to be, but it has a meaning.


Yes, but in this case it means "STFU or I'll accuse you of being a nazi again!" The original meaning of the term is long gone.
 
2012-08-28 10:50:43 AM  

SkunkWerks: I need to see this quote. But I'm still feeling this sounds like nitpicking.


I don't have it handy, he is still going on about it in this thread.

SkunkWerks: For the most part, and at that time, it wasn't. I think that's really the more significant reality here, which is another reason I feel this is nitpicking


There is a big difference between "for the most part" and what he claimed.

It may look like "nitpicking" but it comes down tot he foundation of why he thinks Israel is an illigitimate state. If I say people X can't buy land somewhere, or shouldn't be allowed to move somewhere, or have a voice in govt, most sane people would call that racism (if x was a race). But when it comes to jews moving to the ME it is perfectly acceptable.

He takes it a step futher and thinks that jews who have lived there forvever, on land they own are living on "arab land".
 
2012-08-28 10:52:03 AM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


That's how I felt about it from day 1. Blocking heavy machinery is one thing but if you're going to play that game make darn sure the operator can see you! She didn't do that.

crab66: Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

I would probably move out of the way. But luckily I live in a country of laws where some native american can't bulldoze my house because he had an ancestor living there 1500 years ago.

Statute of limitations, Israel. Learn what it means.


This had nothing to do with the past ownership of the land. Israel was clearing a zone to make it harder for smugglers.

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


Try again. Remember, a dozer has a big noisy engine. Furthermore, the protesters routinely lie--even if the operator heard people yelling that doesn't mean he would have paid any attention.

When he realized there was an issue he pulled back. It's moot, anyway--she wasn't killed by the dozer but by stuff it knocked down on her.

mrexcess: Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"


There's no reason to bother with Wikipedia on things like this. They favor consensus over truth, if enough people repeat a lie Wikipedia has no problem with presenting it as the truth.
 
2012-08-28 11:01:14 AM  
It's tragic that she was killed but she's the very definition of "useful idiot". The same goes for these boatloads of idiots that keep trying to take supplies for the terrorists through Israeli warship patrols.

Yes, I know they say the supplies are for the civilians but we all know who ends up with them.
 
2012-08-28 11:03:20 AM  

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]


this
 
2012-08-28 11:06:22 AM  
Useful idiot was useful.
 
2012-08-28 11:08:04 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


She wasn't MURDERED you idiot. It was an accident. The guy driving the bulldozer wasn't some highly trained Mossad officer with evil intentions, he was probably some 19 year old Combat Engineer draftee who had been told to go bulldoze something. He was in a hot, armored box, with crappy visibility (where there wasn't armored plate blocking his view, he probably had 3 inches of scratched up bullet proof glass), and an unmuffled engine that would keep him from hearing anything that was going on outside. And I'm sure he didn't care at all about the idiots outside, he was just trying to do his job well enough to keep his Sergeant off his ass, and maybe get a pass for the weekend so he could go home and bang little Susie Rottencrotch, or whatever the Israeli equivalent is.

This girl was on top of a berm that he was trying to bulldoze. He probably looked down at his controls for a second when he hit it, and wen he looked up, she was gone. He probably assumed she had some sort of brain in her head and had gotten down and out of the way of the multi-ton piece of equipment.

As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

And the 'dozer "ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her". Or, you could say "the bulldozer operator, not seeing her, and ignoring the screaming unwashed hippies who were trying to annoy him yet again, drove forward into the berm again, then backed up to hit it one more time, when he realized he'd accidentally run over someone, and probably feels like shait about it."

This was an industrial accident, just because the guy running the bulldozer was doing something you disapprove of, it doesn't make it murder. Accidents happen.
 
2012-08-28 11:10:56 AM  

crab66: Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?
I would probably move out of the way. But luckily I live in a country of laws where some native american can't bulldoze my house because he had an ancestor living there 1500 years ago.
Statute of limitations, Israel. Learn what it means.


I compare this to people who take on the cops in the U.S. You might be perfectly morally right and the cops are law-breaking assholes, but guess who's going to be dead if you force a confrontation?

Or that old rhyme about driving too fast: You may be right as you speed along,
But you're just as dead as if you were wrong.

If you're prepared to put your life on the line for an ideal, just be aware that you can lose your life and still not change a thing. You'll be "right", though. So there's that.
 
2012-08-28 11:25:26 AM  

tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?


Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?
 
2012-08-28 11:26:10 AM  
liam76
They never captured a civilian. Other than building walls and keeping potential terrosits out there isn't much you can do to ditrectly prevent terrorist attacks. If they captured a civilian you can bet they would do as much or more to go after those responsible.

Hadn't thought about it that way, but it is sort of weird to perceive taking prisoners as more serious than murder, isn't it?

Guilt by association would be if they had tea together. She joined a group, where the leader of the group made statements as the leader. By your actions you are supporting what they say.

At various times in my life, I have been a member of various political parties. At no time in my entire life have I ever been in 100% agreement with any of their policy platforms, let alone all the statements made by people who are leaders of those parties.

You accused them of using similiar tactis as Hamas. Where are the suicide bombings directed at civilians? Where are the rockets lobbed at civilians? Where are the gunmne who shoot up preggo women?

Dude, seriously? You're defending MEK and Jundallah? MEK were Ba'athist allies responsible for attacks against Iranians and other groups including Kurds that go far, far beyond anything HAMAS has ever done to Israel. They have used chemical weapons in attacks against Iranian cities. And as for Jundallah, they're described by the US State Department as a foreign terrorist organization that "has engaged in numerous attacks resulting in the death and maiming of scores of Iranian civilians and government officials" which "uses a variety of terrorist tactics, including suicide bombings, ambushes, kidnappings and targeted assassinations."

KellyX
I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes..

You don't understand why America is regarded by so many as actively involved in supporting Israeli behavior like that?

Loren
There's no reason to bother with Wikipedia on things like this. They favor consensus over truth, if enough people repeat a lie Wikipedia has no problem with presenting it as the truth.

The cited Ha'aretz article is right there in the entry's footnotes.
 
2012-08-28 11:38:46 AM  

devildog123: As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.


Speaking as someone who has run heavy construction sites and mines, I doubt he even heard them.
 
2012-08-28 11:42:56 AM  

mrexcess: KellyX
I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes..

You don't understand why America is regarded by so many as actively involved in supporting Israeli behavior like that?


I do understand, I just think it's silly and more likely just to get attention to the subject.

Do I think it's wrong what they do? Yes.

Would America not offering any money or military aid stop it? No.

The only people that will resolve this issue in the end with be the Israeli's themselves by electing a new generation of politicians that are sick of the forever war with Palestinians and the policies their government has towards them.
 
2012-08-28 11:47:01 AM  

liam76: There is a big difference between "for the most part" and what he claimed.


Keep this in mind, I'll be returning to it in a moment...

liam76: It may look like "nitpicking" but it comes down tot he foundation of why he thinks Israel is an illigitimate state.


Well, since we seem to have sorta agreed that 90% of the people on the land at that time were of Arabic persuasion, and only 10% were Jewish (by civil landownership, whatever), and since I haven't heard you contest that the aforementioned 90% were forcibly removed from their land- land they had occupied for centuries- in order to establish the mentioned illegitimate state, I would think that those are rather serious reasons to call it's legitimacy into doubt...

...from a purely ethical perspective, mind you.

I'm well-aware of what sort of backing the creation of the state of Israel had, and what that means in terms of reality- moral or amoral as that might be. I'm aware of why a state that intends to remain a state needs a standing army and the resources to operate it, and I'm aware that Israel- even if by proxy- wielded enough force to at that time make itself a state, whether you agreed with the way it was founded or not.

Legitimacy. In terms of military might, I agree, totally legit: don't screw with someone wielding a bigger bat than you. But whether or not they were entitled to excise what was arguably a no less "native" population in order to make that state? Maybe not so much. This is of course, water under the bridge at this point, but to ignore it as a source of contention for Israel's "legitimacy" seems disingenuous, if not entirely unwise.

liam76: If I say people X can't buy land somewhere, or shouldn't be allowed to move somewhere, or have a voice in govt, most sane people would call that racism (if x was a race). But when it comes to jews moving to the ME it is perfectly acceptable.


Just as there's a big difference between being told you can't make a domestic purchase, and being forcibly removed from land you already own.
 
2012-08-28 11:47:31 AM  
Satanic_Hamster: devildog123: As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

Speaking as someone who has run heavy construction sites and mines, I doubt he even heard them.


Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.

Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.
 
2012-08-28 11:49:42 AM  

bostonguy: tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?


Oleh. Been here since 94, though I was 20 at the time so many olim tend to think that I grew up here, or at the least have Israeli parents. It helps to speak fluent Hebrew without a strong Anglo accent. Not that it fools the Sabras.

I usually read all the Israel threads. Don't always comment, find it futile.

/Yeah, I'm up for an Israel Fark party. I'm a Yerushalmi, but in Tel Aviv a couple days a week. PM me, we'll work something out. (Can you PM here?)
//A couple of my RL friends hang out here occasionally too, they'll probably be up for it.
///We'll have to take pictures otherwise everyone will think its Tatsuma alone in a corner with a beer for each of his alts.
 
2012-08-28 11:53:09 AM  
Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

To be fair its not Tats the throwing Anti-semite around left and right. But pointing that out will probably make me anti-semite to some.
 
2012-08-28 11:58:40 AM  
KellyX
Would America not offering any money or military aid stop it? No.

Demolition of innocent peoples' homes in occupied territory is actually a really, really serious breach of international law. In a great many instances including this one, we are the only thing standing between Israel and the ire of the international community. I think it's fair to say that this position confers both some degree of responsibility, and some degree of leverage.

Now I'm not naive... taking too strong a stand against Israel could lead them closer to an alliance with one of our foes, calibration is always a part of the diplomacy game. I support a (healthier) US/Israel strategic partnership. But the fact is that in respect to Israeli behavior in the occupied territories, the US holds many more carrots and sticks than it has ever chosen to utilize.
 
2012-08-28 12:13:50 PM  

tjassen: bostonguy: tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?

Oleh. Been here since 94, though I was 20 at the time so many olim tend to think that I grew up here, or at the least have Israeli parents. It helps to speak fluent Hebrew without a strong Anglo accent. Not that it fools the Sabras.

I usually read all the Israel threads. Don't always comment, find it futile.

/Yeah, I'm up for an Israel Fark party. I'm a Yerushalmi, but in Tel Aviv a couple days a week. PM me, we'll work something out. (Can you PM here?)
//A couple of my RL friends hang out here occasionally too, they'll probably be up for it.
///We'll have to take pictures othe ...


Lived in Jerusalem too (first Baka and then Nachlaot and then Rehavia). Moved to TLV two weeks ago for work, though I don't know too many people here.

Tats and I had e-mailed about having a Fark Party at Mike's Place in Jerusalem, but we never got around to having it. Perhaps we can all plan one there in a month or so?

I don't put my e-mail address here, and I don't see any contact information listed in your profile. But my profile lists my three personal sites, and if you go to the About page on any of them, you'll see a way to contact me. Keep in touch! I can e-mail both you and Tats...
 
2012-08-28 12:14:11 PM  

BronyMedic: Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.


I know, right? In this thread we have Tatsuma, who is either the Jewiest Jew to every Jew Jewism on the Internet or a troll, who has me on ignore for criticizing Israeli asshole behavior in other threads, and then we have anti-Israeli trolls who claim that anyone who isn't calling Israel a bunch of murdering jerks is a shrill.

Both sides are bad, so eat humus.
 
2012-08-28 12:18:52 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: BronyMedic: Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.

I know, right? In this thread we have Tatsuma, who is either the Jewiest Jew to every Jew Jewism on the Internet or a troll, who has me on ignore for criticizing Israeli asshole behavior in other threads, and then we have anti-Israeli trolls who claim that anyone who isn't calling Israel a bunch of murdering jerks is a shrill.

Both sides are bad, so eat humus.


Hummus is awesome. I have to say.
 
2012-08-28 12:27:53 PM  

SkunkWerks: Hummus is awesome. I have to say.


Yeah, now I'm thinking of lamb and hummus for dinner. Maybe some kibbe too. Or falafel.

Of course, bbq is still an option.
 
2012-08-28 12:31:32 PM  

RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.


How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.
 
2012-08-28 12:36:27 PM  

Flab: I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?


It partly was, yes. Both to finish my degree and this. Finished my degree, however did not find a suitable match who wanted to live in Israel

Happy Hours: My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.


I am fairly sure that those were stars of david, because she also made comments about america being ZOG and she was protesting the invasion of Iraq at the behest of Israel by the ZOG American government

bostonguy: / Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?


Jerusalem, with Yeshiva I can't very well traipse off to tel aviv whenever I want
 
2012-08-28 12:38:09 PM  

Happy Hours: Tatsuma: There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it

My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

That's still a pretty farked up thing for an American to do with a bunch of Palestinians though.


Perhaps. Not remotely as farked up as the actions she was protesting against, though. In fact, the void of that range of acceptability between the two is so broad as to make Tatsuma's mentioning of it utterly laughable.

Tatsuma:
When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent. Derpity derpity derp.


Ah yes, guilt my association. Congrats, Tatsuma, you just used the very logic that Islamist terrorists use to justify killing Israeli civilians. Way to be part of the problem, you unbelievably ridiculous asshole.
 
2012-08-28 12:39:12 PM  

BronyMedic: Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.


Please show me where I did that in this thread tyia

tjassen: ///We'll have to take pictures otherwise everyone will think its Tatsuma alone in a corner with a beer for each of his alts.


hey, if I have a beer for every alt, i will be sober

worst fark party ever

bostonguy: Tats and I had e-mailed about having a Fark Party at Mike's Place in Jerusalem, but we never got around to having it. Perhaps we can all plan one there in a month or so?


that'd be awesome

but yeah jerusalem
 
2012-08-28 12:44:12 PM  

Tatsuma: Happy Hours: My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

I am fairly sure that those were stars of david, because she also made comments about america being ZOG and she was protesting the invasion of Iraq at the behest of Israel by the ZOG American government


You're fairly sure because of a bunch of stuff OTHER than what you can see with your own eyes? Par for the course, Tatsuma, par for the course. You have gone so far off the deep end that you are now willing to ignore what you see in favor of what you believe. Look at that photo. That doesn't even look like an American flag, but I'll pretend she's just a sh*tty craftsman. But no, those stars have 5 points, clearly. They are not Stars of David. There is no "pretty sure"...they aren't. Look at them. Use your goddamned eyes. I mean holy sh*t, really? REALLY?
 
2012-08-28 12:45:49 PM  

Ebbelwoi: Likewise, it should have been abundantly clear to the leaders of the protest action that to not stand down THEIR operation would lead to this outcome.


According to the wikipedia, ISM leaders knowing, willfully, put their protester's lives at risk.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 12:47:13 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.


You're right, we would feel sympathy with the little girl, whereas Corrie was just acting stupidly after having been trained stupidly by a bunch of assholes longing for her death in order to make an international scene.
 
2012-08-28 12:47:21 PM  
Tatsuma: So now that I've provided evidence that what you've said was untrue, you're what, just going to start ignoring our discussion?
 
2012-08-28 12:48:16 PM  

Tatsuma: BronyMedic: Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

Please show me where I did that in this thread tyia


Tatsuma, you've done it in the past, if not here. One tactic I've seen you employ is to use the logic that anti-semites like to knock on Israel, thus anyone knocking Israel should question the company they share such opinions with, lest they be labeled an anti-Semite.
 
2012-08-28 12:54:34 PM  

RoyBatty: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.

You're right, we would feel sympathy with the little girl, whereas Corrie was just acting stupidly after having been trained stupidly by a bunch of assholes longing for her death in order to make an international scene.


You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.

Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.
 
2012-08-28 01:05:15 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.


If you send the National Guard onto a University Campus and they shoot at unarmed students, you may be an asshat.

If you send your protesters, with 2 days training, into a military operation, knowing and anticipating their deaths, you may be an asshat.
 
2012-08-28 01:08:13 PM  

RoyBatty: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.

If you send the National Guard onto a University Campus and they shoot at unarmed students, you may be an asshat.

If you send your protesters, with 2 days training, into a military operation, knowing and anticipating their deaths, you may be an asshat.


So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?
 
2012-08-28 01:11:45 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.


I don't know what she was trying to prevent, but it's clear the IDF felt they had legal grounds to believe the house held tunnels, and there is clear testimony even from ISM that the IDF usually stopped before hitting protesters when they knew they were there, and that visibility out of those bulldozers is terrible.

Adults with rationality and agency don't stand in front of bulldozers. They especially don't stand in front of military bulldozers on a day when the soldiers are being shot at or having hand grenades thrown at them.

So you want me to believe either:

A) Rachel Corrie was not an adult with rationality or agency and so not responsible for her actions, or
B) Rachel Corrie was an adult with rationality or agency and so responsible for her actions

Either way you don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want her on that berm, you need her on that berm, or underneath the bulldozer.

You and ISM will order that code red to try and make a martyr for your own needs.
 
2012-08-28 01:14:05 PM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


More like 'it's slightly suspicious given the rest of Israel's actions', but yeah, if she was actually kneeling and not in full view, nonstory.

Now, if those tapes happened to show that she wasn't...
 
2012-08-28 01:16:21 PM  
Corrie was a fool, this was an accident - but it's the same sort of accident as mistakenly shooting a teller while robbing a bank - the crime here was Israel bulldozing houses and stealing land. Period.
 
2012-08-28 01:17:29 PM  

SkunkWerks: So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?


Who?

ISM?

I would think the way people protest around the world, with placards off to the side and papier mache puppets taking video and documenting it, then posting it on the net, or if they really think they can stop a military operation from a government that they detest and decry as having all of these inhumane war crime operations, than with enough people and supervisors, etc., to keep their protesters safe. (Link arms around the building, don't stand on the berm in front of the bulldozer.)

The wikipedia (which is warring about today) still says ISM did this knowingly, and sent her in after two days of training.

Tatsuma's picture seems to show that Corrie really wasn't some neutral observer in this.

Shortly before the Iraq War began, several American citizens went to Iraq to put their bodies in front of, I forget what it was, but I think it was actually refineries or some such, and oddly, and my memory is probably totally wrong on this, Hussein sent them back. But had they died as they claimed they were willing to, and their families sued the US for negligence, a lot of us, even those of us (like me) against the Iraq War would be "WTF?"
 
2012-08-28 01:20:41 PM  

And these are the hypocritical, racist assholes that continually insist that the US

FREE JONATHAN POLLARD!!!


and that we

BOMB IRAN!!!


so that they can carry on in their hypocritical racist schemes unmolested by the filthy "nations". 


/God I love Zionists
 
2012-08-28 01:20:46 PM  

jaybeezey: Frederick: BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.

You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private. Also, was the land truly privately owned? If you don't know, you should check out there property laws.

The reason this girl is dead is because she wasn't smarter/tougher than the bulldozer.

The reason she was in front of the bulldozer is inconsiquential.


your are an idiot and your parents should feel ashamed.
 
2012-08-28 01:41:19 PM  

RoyBatty: SkunkWerks: So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?

Who?

ISM?

I would think the way people protest around the world, with placards off to the side and papier mache puppets taking video and documenting it, then posting it on the net, or if they really think they can stop a military operation from a government that they detest and decry as having all of these inhumane war crime operations, than with enough people and supervisors, etc., to keep their protesters safe. (Link arms around the building, don't stand on the berm in front of the bulldozer.)

The wikipedia (which is warring about today) still says ISM did this knowingly, and sent her in after two days of training.

Tatsuma's picture seems to show that Corrie really wasn't some neutral observer in this.

Shortly before the Iraq War began, several American citizens went to Iraq to put their bodies in front of, I forget what it was, but I think it was actually refineries or some such, and oddly, and my memory is probably totally wrong on this, Hussein sent them back. But had they died as they claimed they were willing to, and their families sued the US for negligence, a lot of us, even those of us (like me) against the Iraq War would be "WTF?"


A fair answer I suppose. But generally speaking I think that critiquing the whole "but, they were going into a WAR ZONE" scenario again seems kinda demonstrably obvious. Any protest scenario is potentially dangerous. Whether it's getting maced or run over by a bulldozer- as in this case.

The notion that this needs to be belabored seems kinda strange to me, as I'm fairly sure the protesters were well aware of how much danger they were in. In fact, it may have been a fair part of the point.

But you make some good points about what actions they might have taken. Still, elsewhere in the article, her accomplices/comrades mention that they'd been quite used to blocking bulldozers, and they had always stopped them before. That it didn't work in this case was of course a shock, but the real point of bringing this up is that it more than a little refutes that they were prepared for this, at least to some extent. Other accounts of Corrie suggest she had used arm-linking under other protest circumstances in the past.

Again, I don't really doubt Corrie had more than an inkling of the risks she was taking. Indeed I think that part may have been more than a little deliberate. And of course how justified she felt about the risk in no way changes how her parents feel on the matter.
 
2012-08-28 01:42:32 PM  
i269.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-28 01:47:45 PM  

SkunkWerks: But generally speaking I think that critiquing the whole "but, they were going into a WAR ZONE" scenario again seems kinda demonstrably obvious. Any protest scenario is potentially dangerous.


So generally, I've been told that the police are trained to handle civilians, and the military is not, so it's one thing to protest against a line of cops (even though we've seen at Occupy and WTO protests the cops don't always do a great job of it) but protesting against the military who has very little training on how to handle civilians is even riskier.

It seems like a terrible accident, but ISM should not have placed her there, and if they did so on purpose, they should man up and take responsibility for it.
 
2012-08-28 01:49:49 PM  

SkunkWerks: And of course how justified she felt about the risk in no way changes how her parents feel on the matter.


If this happened to one of my kids, you're damn right I'd be suing.
 
2012-08-28 01:55:15 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 01:57:03 PM  
0.tqn.com

"You move out da way"
 
2012-08-28 02:05:45 PM  
This is from a Mother Jones article, sympathetic to Rachel Corrie. It describes how ISM is not a neutral particpant, how they support armed struggle and violence, how poorly they train their people (don't drink alcohol, wear hijab, no sex, no drugs, and yes, don't scare the army), and how they intentionally put their people at risk. That's sympathetic coverage.

i.imgur.com

Link
 
2012-08-28 02:09:34 PM  

Happy Hours: either Israel is evil and they killed her on purpose or Israel would never do that and it was just a horrible accident. 


I see it as Pancakes and the guy in the bulldozer were basically playing "Chicken". Pancakes won.

/Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
//Darwin in Action.
 
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