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(Jerusalem Post)   Israeli court rules Israel not at fault in 2003 killing by Israeli military of non-Israeli activist Rachel Corrie   (jpost.com) divider line 265
    More: Followup, Rachel Corrie, Israelis, IDF, bulldozers, diplomacies, court ruling  
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2938 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2012 at 6:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-28 08:53:06 AM

Tatsuma: Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags


Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.
 
2012-08-28 08:54:18 AM

fatalvenom: You post all this like she did something wrong.


She obviously is anti-semitic because she's pro palestinian, therefore she did something wrong.

With tats, there's no middle ground -- if you don't agree with him, you're antisemitic.

Just because you don't want the wanton destruction between two clashing cultures and you support the underdog, does not mean you hate the other one...
 
2012-08-28 08:54:26 AM

SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.


... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)
 
2012-08-28 08:54:34 AM
Rachel Corrie was a girl who died while protesting the demolition of a family's home. It's that simple, basic fact that all the politics obscures, sometimes quite deliberately.

She wasn't there because she cared about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as some clash of civilizations in which she had to align herself, she wasn't on some crusade for her religion or nationalist agenda, she was there to draw attention to the fact that horrible stuff like that innocent family's house being torn down for no reason happens regularly in a conflict she felt some collective responsibility for. I don't wonder why that fact gets lost in the discussion, but I do lament it.
 
2012-08-28 08:55:57 AM
when someone in the israeli army tells you to get out of the way of a moving bulldozer, do it. I bet her mommy never taught her to look both ways when crossing the street, either
 
2012-08-28 08:56:33 AM

Tatsuma: ... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.


Tatsuma: Gunslinger013: You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?

Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags


Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist. Or else try to write your narrative more coherently. Bias I can sort out, incompetent writing is inexcusable. You seem eloquent enough. I expect better.
 
2012-08-28 08:58:12 AM

SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".


Bloody leopards.
 
2012-08-28 08:58:14 AM

mrexcess: Rachel Corrie was a girl who died while protesting the demolition of a family's home. It's that simple, basic fact that all the politics obscures, sometimes quite deliberately.


Except that she did not die protecting some family's house. No house was demolished that day. No house was set to be demolished that day. You can clearly see that she was not protecting a house in all the pictures and videos

Again, just lies and insults rather than facts and polite discussions.
 
2012-08-28 08:59:39 AM
There are two sides to this issue. Presenting Israel as the innocent victim only acting in self defense falls somewhere between ignorant disingenuous.

*'ignorant and disingenuous'
 
2012-08-28 09:01:15 AM

Tatsuma: in all the pictures and videos


I tried to find the video on YouTube and all I could get was some horribly over-edited thing with two seconds of grainy black and white video. Do you have any links you could provide?
 
2012-08-28 09:01:47 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: That's not a Holocaust denial; it's a simple question, and as far as I can tell from skimming through that thread, you didn't even try to answer. Probably because you couldn't.

He didn't just ask a question, he said "there appears to be a disconnect".


There was a disconnect in the facts as they had been presented him. That make him ask a question. You, in return, flew off the handle. As always.

No grown adult is that farking clueless that they can't even google a simple answer.

Then why didn't you google the simple answer for him? For that matter, why didn't you already know the answer?

Someone who makes a statement like that isn't looking for answers, they are trying to muddy the water.

...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites" ...
 
2012-08-28 09:01:52 AM

SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.


... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.
 
2012-08-28 09:03:44 AM

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking


[Threadjack]
I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?
[/threadjack]
 
2012-08-28 09:04:39 AM

Tatsuma: There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it


My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

That's still a pretty farked up thing for an American to do with a bunch of Palestinians though.
 
2012-08-28 09:07:15 AM

liam76: ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.


It is their right, what's the problem?
 
2012-08-28 09:07:20 AM

Tatsuma: See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:
[www.kabobfest.com image 299x287]

This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.
[www.thejc.com image 490x245]

There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in G ...



Jesus Tits, who invited Netantyahu?
 
2012-08-28 09:07:28 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?

Dig tunnels into Egypt to smuggle arms.


Sez who? The IDF? Not that it really matters, because:

You do realize that Israel pulled out of Gaza, right?

Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)

How exacly was that zionist living space? Even when they had settlements Rafah wasn't one of them.

Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case.
 
2012-08-28 09:10:51 AM
Tatsuma
She was burning an American flag with stars of david

Burning even a fully American flag would not inherently make one a hater of America. An American burning an American flag with Stars of David is much more reasonably interpreted as strong repudiation of America's policies towards Israel.

declared America was ZOG

I think some citations and context would be relevant here.

and supported Hamas.

And here, as well.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas.

And here.

CrispFlows
To be fair, he did provide proof.

Disagree. What he's done is provide, essentially, "opposition research". The picture it presents isn't accurate with respect to her beliefs and was never intended to be. Reading Rachel's actual writings makes this pretty clear... she wasn't someone who hated America, although she hated the way our government sometimes works, some of our policies, and some of the views of her countrymen (as we all mostly do). She wasn't some bloodthirsty supporter of terrorism - in fact she was an extremely gentle person who very much did NOT support people walking into malls or onto school buses and slaughtering innocents, or people tearing down the homes of innocent families.

liam76
ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

Armed struggle is a right of any oppressed minority. That isn't to say it's a good idea, or that violence generally is beneficial, or that the specific types of violence employed by Palestinian groups in the past have been morally justified, but it's just ridiculous to suggest that a violently oppressed people don't have the right to resist their oppressors with the same level of force being used to oppress them. I come from a country that only exists because of a violent revolution against an occupying foreign power, how could I deny that? Come to that, how could Israel supporters deny that? Israel is well known for funding armed opposition movements in nations like Iran, despite their employment of tactics not very different from those of Hamas.
 
2012-08-28 09:11:16 AM

Tatsuma: ... wow.


I know! I imagine you're used to people ignoring inconsistencies like this. And you are biased, but I'm at peace with that. I won't put up with you saying something and then saying you just didn't say it though.

Particularly when it's in writing not far from the place you denied it's existence.
 
2012-08-28 09:12:32 AM

Uncle Tractor: Then why didn't you google the simple answer for him? For that matter, why didn't you already know the answer?


Me not wanting to play games with a guy who is "just asking questions" doesn't mean I don't know the answer.


Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"


No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.
 
2012-08-28 09:12:37 AM

SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".


I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)
 
2012-08-28 09:13:04 AM
Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"
 
2012-08-28 09:13:44 AM

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)


Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.
 
2012-08-28 09:14:24 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"

No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.


Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.
 
2012-08-28 09:17:46 AM

mrexcess: Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"


I suspect he will go edit the wikipedia so it conforms to its narrative
 
2012-08-28 09:20:03 AM

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.

... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.


Does this mean you'll go away?

don't be a tease.
 
2012-08-28 09:26:21 AM

mrexcess: liam76
ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

Armed struggle is a right of any oppressed minority. That isn't to say it's a good idea, or that violence generally is beneficial, or that the specific types of violence employed by Palestinian groups in the past have been morally justified, but it's just ridiculous to suggest that a violently oppressed people don't have the right to resist their oppressors with the same level of force being used to oppress them. I come from a country that only exists because of a violent revolution against an occupying foreign power, how could I deny that? Come to that, how could Israel supporters deny that? Israel is well known for funding armed opposition movements in nations like Iran, despite their employment of tactics not very different from those of Hamas


You know what I don't actually have a problem with armed resistance if it is directed agaisnt military. In the case of Palestien that is very rare. The leader of ISM is on record saying that, "Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation". The armed struggle of the peopelt hey are supporting (Hammas) almost always takes the form of terroprism.

I am not familiar with suicide bombings in public areas in Iran funded by Israel. I am not famliar with armed gunmen shooting pregneant women in Iran funded by Israel.

Uncle Tractor: Sez who? The IDF? Not that it really matters, because:


The IDF and Egypt.

Uncle Tractor: Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)


Whenyou atre smuggling arms to lob at random civilians of another country it is the business of that other country.


Uncle Tractor: Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case


So when Israel pulls out, to you, that means they are just biding their time for when they will move in again.

Those Israeli's really are terrible at getting rid of Arabs, as you continually alledge is their goal.
 
2012-08-28 09:28:00 AM
I just don't see how standing in the blind spot of an armored bulldozer could be a bad thing. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that I shouldn't play in traffic.
 
2012-08-28 09:29:53 AM

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)


Hitchikers guide tot he Galaxy.

You are missing out.

Uncle Tractor: liam76: Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"

No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.

Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.


There was land that were exclusively jewish.
There was land that were exclusivley arab.
There was mixed land.
There was empty land.

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.
 
2012-08-28 09:38:29 AM

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.

... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)


How many wheels are on your goalposts anyways?
 
2012-08-28 09:38:30 AM

cman: cman: How can an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?


Fixt. Not asking for how I could sue, I was asking for how a sovereign nation could be forced to defend itself in a court of law by a lowly American citizen


That depends on their laws. A person can sue the United States government under certain circumstances (see the Torts Claims Act). Sometimes governments waive sovereign immunity. I guess Israel does so.

Or is your question more along the lines of "Who do this biatch's parents think they are, suing God's chosen people for ending the life of that terrorist-loving whore?"
 
2012-08-28 09:38:53 AM
Tatsuma:

Tatsuma
When you take the step from 'Well America supports Israel' to 'America is a Zionist Occupied Government! Viva Hamas!', then you're moving from a valid position into racism and tinfoilhattery.

Is there room for a step in between those? Maybe something like 'Hey - It seems like we're always bending over backwards for Israel. What gives?' It's funny. I don't feel like a racist but I think it is ok to criticize Israel (or any other nation or entity) when they have it coming.

Tatsuma Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags

Point taken but I don't think that justifies her death.

Tatsuma The ISM is clearly not the only thing you know little about. You should definitely read more about the tunnels, since you seem to think its 'magical crap'

My point was that tunnels were not mentioned in the original article. I notice that you don't have much to say about the IDF practice of bulldozing homes.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:22 AM

mrexcess: Tatsuma
She was burning an American flag with stars of david


In all fairness, the stars look like simple stars meant to be drawn fast with one stroke each, that's how kids in elementary and pre-school drew them.

That flag isn't exactly a facsimile of the real flag and looks to be done as fast as possible with the least amount of effort possible. *shrugs*
 
2012-08-28 09:40:42 AM
SkunkWerks:
Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.

It's on my to read list.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:51 AM

liam76: Uncle Tractor: Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)
Whenyou atre smuggling arms to lob at random civilians of another country it is the business of that other country.


Shait happens when you make your living space in somebody else's homeland.

Uncle Tractor: Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case

So when Israel pulls out, to you, that means they are just biding their time for when they will move in again.


Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?

Those Israeli's really are terrible at getting rid of Arabs, as you continually alledge is their goal.

And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:58 AM

liam76: There was land that were exclusively jewish.
There was land that were exclusivley arab.
There was mixed land.
There was empty land.

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.



From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership. Ignorance/simplification are still perfectly valid explanations. It's still fair to say, for instance, that it was "mostly Arabic" land.

This really becomes a kinda important observation when you think about what happens with any majority-occupancy demographic whom you suddenly displace, and in particular when you do the displacement without what many might say constitutes "just cause".

I also don't find this "omission" particularly damning evidence of Anti-Semitism on his part. It just feels like nitpicking.
 
2012-08-28 09:44:35 AM

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks:
Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.

It's on my to read list.


There's even a bit where the protagonist (I use this term loosely) lies in front of a bulldozer to prevent someone from knocking his house down.

If Ford Prefect had been in the mix in this situation, this tragedy could have been avoided.

/sagenod
 
2012-08-28 09:47:09 AM

liam76: Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.

There was land that were exclusively jewish.


No. There was land that was privately owned by jews. Not the same thing.

There was land that were exclusivley arab.

No. There was land that was privately owned by arabs. Not the same thing.

There was mixed land.

...where the majority of the population was arab.

There was empty land.

The terra nullius argument again. Old-school european colonialists love that one.

Say, parts of present-day Israel are currently empty. Does that mean that arabs can move in and declare a new state there?

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.

90% of the population was arab. That makes it arab land.

"Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.
 
2012-08-28 09:48:48 AM

Uncle Tractor: "Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.


...this however might constitute a tacit denial of how language works.
 
2012-08-28 09:55:22 AM

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


She was killed by a slab of concrete and a lot of dirt. She was not run over by the treads. It was her own actions that got her killed. She was not murdered. Palestinian apologists really need to get a grip.
 
2012-08-28 09:56:09 AM

SkunkWerks: From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership.


Those numbers aren't about land ownership, but demographics. IIRC the locals didn't own much of the land at all back then, jew or arab. They payed their taxes to whomever currently ruled the land and payed rent to the landowners, who didn't even live in Palestine.

This really becomes a kinda important observation when you think about what happens with any majority-occupancy demographic whom you suddenly displace, and in particular when you do the displacement without what many might say constitutes "just cause".

Since you're on the fence: In your opinion, how does one create a jewish homeland in an area where 90% of the population is arab?

I also don't find this "omission" particularly damning evidence of Anti-Semitism on his part.

Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.

It just feels like nitpicking.

All Israel / Palestine devolve into nitpicking -- even to the point of red or white pixels on a certain map.
 
2012-08-28 09:56:49 AM
liam76
You know what I don't actually have a problem with armed resistance if it is directed agaisnt military. In the case of Palestien that is very rare.

I think one of the things that has surprised me most in the recent years is how much more seriously Israel took the Gilad Shalit affair (an IDF soldier captured in uniform and held prisoner for several years by HAMAS -ed) than it seems to ever have taken against things like suicide bombings against civilian targets.

The leader of ISM is on record saying that, "Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation"

First of all, the guilt by association thing is wack. The leader of the International Solidary Movement having opinion Y does not confer that opinion automagically on everyone else who participates in the ISM, nor does it mean that the ISM's activities all must conform to that opinion.

Secondly, where's the context? It is incredibly difficult to evaluate even statements whose meaning seems clear absent context, and this statement could be taken in a number of ways. Spoken to an audience of Palestinian militants, such a message would actually seem to be advocacy of non-violence.

>I am not familiar with suicide bombings in public areas in Iran funded by Israel.

MEK (Mujahedin-e Khalq) - the People's Mujahedin of Iran - are a domestic Iranian terrorist group. According to anonymous "senior" US officials quoted in an NBC report from February, Israel is helping to fund and support the group in exchange for the assassination of Iranian civilian nuclear scientists.

Furthermore, a Foreign Policy piece from January reports that Israel is funding another Iranian domestic terrorist group - Jundallah - while pretending to be CIA field agents.
 
2012-08-28 09:59:00 AM
KellyX: Even if the flag was a perfect reproduction, the act of burning it in protest, especially in a context like this one, wouldn't somehow inherently mean that one "hates America".
 
2012-08-28 10:03:15 AM

SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: "Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.

...this however might constitute a tacit denial of how language works.


Well now ...

If you look at the words and their meaning, "anti-semite" means that one is agains semites. As we all know, most semites aren't jews. Even so, the term was intended to mean someone who was against jews (by a person who himself was against jews).

Ever since 1947/48, the term has been used to silence criticism of Israel. So one could say that "anti-semite" means "anti-Israel."

However, in threads like this the term is thrown around so freely that it's just marklar. Marklar marklar marklar. You marklar.

Meaningless, see?
 
2012-08-28 10:03:54 AM

Red Shirt Blues: Frederick: I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff

That's where I disagree. Those men and women were Chinese citizens in China. Rachel was just, well...a butinski.


If the death in this case was a Palestinian instead, nobody would care. It wouldn't make any press.
 
2012-08-28 10:11:39 AM

Uncle Tractor: Shait happens when you make your living space in somebody else's homeland.


Shiat happend when you lob rockets at your stronger neighbor. Odd that you are only upset abotu the "shiat" that happens when jews do it.


Uncle Tractor: Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?


They kept the peace with Egypt. Why do you think they can't keep peace with neighbors who don't attack?


Uncle Tractor: And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein


Rapidly shriniking? If thatw ere true they wouldn;t have pulled out of Gaza.

Another reason I have you marked as anti-semite is your use of german to try and draw parallels bwteen Nazi germany and Israel despite Arabs place in Israel society taking the oposite course as that of German Jews under Nazism.


SkunkWerks: From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership. Ignorance/simplification are still perfectly valid explanations. It's still fair to say, for instance, that it was "mostly Arabic" land.


He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.
 
2012-08-28 10:22:05 AM

Uncle Tractor: ...how does one create a jewish homeland in an area where 90% of the population is arab?


You speak as if this were an imperative action. Is it fair to say the only people for whom this was a "need" were the primary beneficiaries, and even there it's only a matter of perception? In any case, to answer your question more directly...

Short Answer: One doesn't.

Longer Answer: It's not wise, and it's almost certain to result in bloodshed given the circumstances. Keep in mind that colonial powers had been jerking around mid-eastern peoples for something going on a century by this time. Common wisdom of the time yet to depart had it that this was just standard operating procedure.

But like Manifest Destiny, and other colonial mindsets, the base supposition is nearly always that the people you're jerking around are in some way less entitled to (or deserving of) the land than you- the prospectively homesteading people- are. The situation you have today is the inheritance of that, for the most part.

Perhaps if it had been a different era, the matter could have been handled in a less inequitable, more respectful way, but at some level, you'd have to at least respect that the people who were already there had been there for something going on five centuries, perhaps more, and that's a pretty solid investment of time.

"Homeland" is a pretty subjective term, you have to admit. I've lived in my home town for going on 30 years, does that make it any less a place I sentimentally identify as "my homeland" simply because ten generations of my family grew up here? How about a hundred generations? Do I qualify yet?

Not that I think Jews are any less deserving of a "homeland" than anyone else. In fact, it's exactly because I think this. Life is sometimes unfair like that. And if that sounds like a cop-out, well, wish-fulfillment just isn't part of how I roll. Particularly not where fulfilling one party's wish means this. At some point my practical nature wins out.

Uncle Tractor: Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.


Eh, while I agree that it's become a sort of "wolf" cry in it's abundance in this day and age, I have to disagree on one rather significant basis. Words that have no meaning don't see much use in a language. It has a meaning. It's diluted perhaps, very bastardized, and certainly not what you or I might like it to be, but it has a meaning.
 
2012-08-28 10:22:38 AM
whatever you think of her politics, obviously she had terrible parents. Never should have paid for her to go protest in a war zone
 
2012-08-28 10:26:18 AM
I think there are a lot of places where Palestinians make good points about their situation, but this has to be the most retarded piece of propaganda in the entire middle east conflict, and that is saying something.
 
2012-08-28 10:26:54 AM

liam76: Shiat happend when you lob rockets at your stronger neighbor.


...And they did this for no reason whatsoever, right?

Odd that you are only upset abotu the "shiat" that happens when jews do it.

See, this is why you should replace the "l" in your nick with an "r."

Uncle Tractor: Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?
They kept the peace with Egypt.


Was Egypt part of David's Israel?

Uncle Tractor: And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein

Rapidly shriniking?


Yes, rapidly shrinking. You do know about the ever-expanding colonies on the WB, right?

If thatw ere true they wouldn;t have pulled out of Gaza.

Close one illegal colony and create two others. Pulling out of Gaza was nothing but tactics. Israel will be back.

Another reason I have you marked as anti-semite

Marklar.

is your use of german to try and draw parallels bwteen Nazi germany and Israel despite Arabs place in Israel society taking the oposite course as that of German Jews under Nazism.

When will the arabs on the WB be allowed into this israeli society?

BTW:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

Wow, those guys must have been some heartless anti-semites, huh.

He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.

How can it be jewish land when 90% of the population is arab?
 
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