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(Jerusalem Post)   Israeli court rules Israel not at fault in 2003 killing by Israeli military of non-Israeli activist Rachel Corrie   (jpost.com) divider line 265
    More: Followup, Rachel Corrie, Israelis, IDF, bulldozers, diplomacies, court ruling  
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2950 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2012 at 6:14 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-28 07:36:47 AM  
"Hey everybody, stop shooting. I'm an American!"
 
2012-08-28 07:37:53 AM  

Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.


I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?
 
2012-08-28 07:38:54 AM  

ShannonKW: Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself.


Yeah, I said that already. I don't get why anyone would put themselves in a place where they will be martyred by way of negligence rather than deliberateness. In other words, protests work best when they're visible.

But expecting the professional protester to leave the scene of a protest "like any thinking person" merely because "it's a dangerous place to be in" seems to belie a lack of thought on the judge's part as well. Protests often involve being in dangerous places- often as a part of the symbolism they're meant to evoke.

ShannonKW: If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward.


So far, I see a Kneeling-Out-of-Sight version and a Standing-Perfectly-Visible-Where-She-Was-Callously-Run-Down-With-Clear -Intent version.

The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters... so far. As I've mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the details of the incident, and the article at the top of the thread really doesn't mention them. Nothing here is "straightforward" to me here. Not yet.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:06 AM  
Not the first time the IDF has killed Americans, nor the last.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:28 AM  
Fact: Israel is just as bad as anyone else. No better. No worse.

Fact: Standing in front of a piece of heavy machinery could get you killed on any job site in the world where no politics are involved. It's a farking dumb thing to do.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:59 AM  

tjassen: But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

any discussion about Israel ever, in the history of ever.

FTFY
 
2012-08-28 07:41:18 AM  

SkunkWerks: ShannonKW: Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself.

Yeah, I said that already. I don't get why anyone would put themselves in a place where they will be martyred by way of negligence rather than deliberateness. In other words, protests work best when they're visible.

But expecting the professional protester to leave the scene of a protest "like any thinking person" merely because "it's a dangerous place to be in" seems to belie a lack of thought on the judge's part as well. Protests often involve being in dangerous places- often as a part of the symbolism they're meant to evoke.

ShannonKW: If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward.

So far, I see a Kneeling-Out-of-Sight version and a Standing-Perfectly-Visible-Where-She-Was-Callously-Run-Down-With-Clear -Intent version.

The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters... so far. As I've mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the details of the incident, and the article at the top of the thread really doesn't mention them. Nothing here is "straightforward" to me here. Not yet.


Well the tank went fairly straightforward by all accounts.
 
2012-08-28 07:42:14 AM  
See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:
www.kabobfest.com

This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.
www.thejc.com

There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:
i139.photobucket.com

There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding
www.israeli-weapons.com

This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.
www.think-israel.org

She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.
 
2012-08-28 07:42:29 AM  
Did she forget her towel?
 
2012-08-28 07:47:26 AM  

Frederick: Except she wasnt at a "construction site", she was at the home of a Palestinian family where she was a guest. That bulldozer wasnt there to build something it was there to destroy that families home.


Except that this lie has been debunked over and over and over again. Especially easy to know since, you know, no houses were destroyed and videos and pictures of the incident clearly shows that they weren't around houses.
 
2012-08-28 07:48:17 AM  

Tatsuma: Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


Completely indistinguishable from settlers. Is that supposed to mean something?
 
2012-08-28 07:51:30 AM  
Whoa, guys, tone it down. There's really only one question that should be considered. Was she hot?
 
2012-08-28 07:51:57 AM  

Uncle Tractor: jaybeezey: You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private.

What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?


Dig tunnels into Egypt to smuggle arms.

You do realize that Israel pulled out of Gaza, right? How exacly was that zionist living space? Even when they had settlements Rafah wasn't one of them.
 
2012-08-28 07:53:56 AM  
Well this thread went downhill quickly.
 
2012-08-28 07:56:58 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.


There are videos, and that's a lie. Facts, not your friends.
 
2012-08-28 07:57:19 AM  
This thread is hilarious. And completely expected.
 
2012-08-28 07:58:43 AM  

SkunkWerks: The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters...


I have provided a picture, and pointed out you could see the video on youtube and other places.
 
2012-08-28 08:00:43 AM  

Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.


i1178.photobucket.com

Sure did!
 
2012-08-28 08:03:21 AM  
So what we learn from this incident is not to be somewhere where you have already been warned could be fatal to your health. Ta da.

//Your family looking for a court ruling that you may have been surprised by the outcome does not add to the knowledge pool.
 
2012-08-28 08:07:54 AM  

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters...

I have provided a picture, and pointed out you could see the video on youtube and other places.


You provided what amounts to a Daily Mail article- which is to say, slanted in it's narrative, mostly comprised of pictures to wow (and possibly confuse) readers whose last great achievement in literature was a pop-up book. Incidentally it's a tried-and-true approach. National Geographic pretty much pioneered it. You also have a pretty clear bias, if I may observe.

As for videos, well, you'll excuse me if I judiciously avoid questions from co-workers about just what the hell it is I am watching. Perhaps later. But on the subject of video- I do note that this article points to video of the occurrence that- though it appeared in TV documentaries of the incident- it's strangely disappeared since and the IDF denies it's existence.

For now, I've been skimming the Wikipedia article, which indicates numerous conflicting eyewitness accounts on just what the hell happened there. You'll have to pardon me if I remain unmoved.
 
2012-08-28 08:10:00 AM  

NicoFinn: Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.

[i1178.photobucket.com image 603x315]

Sure did!


Tatsuma killed a guy. With a trident
 
2012-08-28 08:14:00 AM  
Subby said Israel 4 times. He must really like Israel.
 
2012-08-28 08:17:33 AM  
Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.
 
2012-08-28 08:17:40 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: NicoFinn: Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.

[i1178.photobucket.com image 603x315]

Sure did!

Tatsuma killed a guy. With a trident


Frederick pooped in the refrigerator and ate a whole wheel of cheese.
 
2012-08-28 08:19:13 AM  

mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.


Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead
 
2012-08-28 08:19:16 AM  
Tatsuma...superjew till the end...
 
2012-08-28 08:23:08 AM  

mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.


He has these things ready for cut and paste. Gots to get paid.
 
2012-08-28 08:23:47 AM  
t0.gstatic.com

If Evergreen had a home economics department, the Corries would still have their daughter and some lucky guy would have a cute little domestic goddess.
 
2012-08-28 08:27:11 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead


Calling people nazis or anti-semites still ok though.
 
2012-08-28 08:30:35 AM  
K-K-K-Ken's c-c-c-c-coming to k-k-k-k-k-kill me.
 
2012-08-28 08:31:38 AM  
Tatsuma:

Wedding still on hold?
 
2012-08-28 08:32:21 AM  

2wolves: Wedding still on hold?


Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking
 
2012-08-28 08:33:52 AM  

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking


Least I could do. Are you in the age range for the draft? Now that the religious exemption has been done away with you may be very busy indeed.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:02 AM  
I can't even bring myself to click on the article. Israel makes me sick. I am an American and I wish we would stop supporting that nation, at least until it makes some sort of attempt to comply with international law. What they're doing in Gaza is nothing less than an extermination, but unless you seek out the news for yourself, all Americans hear about is when some desperate moron blows himself up in a nightclub in Tel Aviv. I'm going to stop before I Godwin the hell out of this, but I will simply say that if Canada somehow was able to occupy my neighborhood and went to mow my shiat down, I would not be simply "Standing in the way." The driver is going to be blown up.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:12 AM  

robohobo: israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.


Hardly. There will ne an overabundance of religious fanatics with far fewer targets to froth at the mouth about.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:47 AM  

robohobo: israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.


Hardly. There will be an overabundance of religious fanatics with far fewer targets to froth at the mouth about.
 
2012-08-28 08:40:36 AM  
Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.
 
2012-08-28 08:40:39 AM  
Court? Israel? HA!
 
2012-08-28 08:42:27 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead


And whenever someone disagrees with your bullshiat you ignore them... point?
 
2012-08-28 08:43:21 AM  

mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly
 
2012-08-28 08:44:06 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


To be fair, he did provide proof.
 
2012-08-28 08:46:20 AM  
Tatsuma: Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:

Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?


When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.


Anyone else bother to do a text search in the original article for the word 'tunnels'?

She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America

Tats - even you have to admit that American foreign policy goes to disproportionate amazing lengths to favor Israel. Something like this goes on long enough people get all tinfoil-hatty.

someone who hated America

You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?

The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate.

I will admit I am not widely read on the ISM. I don't know their particular history or practices. The Palestinian people and Israel are already in a violent struggle. Is the bulldozing of homes not a terrorist act? Don't come back with the 'magical weapons tunnel' crap either. Maybe it was a tunnel this time (the article doesn't specify) but it is common knowledge that the IDF bulldozes homes.

There are two sides to this issue. Presenting Israel as the innocent victim only acting in self defense falls somewhere between ignorant disingenuous.
 
2012-08-28 08:46:52 AM  

fusillade762: Placing yourself in front of heavy machinery never ends well.


That man fought his own government for equality and freedom. Rachel was a U.S. hating fearmonger. I'm willing to own up to our right wing whackjobs like Todd Akin and his derp; but you guys have to admit to some of yours on the left. And Rachel Corrie was about as extremist left as you can get.
 
2012-08-28 08:47:54 AM  

Tatsuma: See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:


This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.


There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding


This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.


She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.


You post all this like she did something wrong.
 
2012-08-28 08:48:04 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly


As opposed to peacefully bulldozing people homes?
 
2012-08-28 08:48:07 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly


So again, they're like Israeli settlers. They just support violent actions by the IDF instead.
 
2012-08-28 08:49:51 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


His labeling of Corrie was based off of facts.

ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

As far as hating America, if you like to hang around kids, draw american flags with jewish stars then rip it up and burn it, I am ok witht he label of "American hating".
 
2012-08-28 08:50:11 AM  
I've operated similar equipment in the Army (Essayons!). In that situation it would be clear to me that someone is going to get hurt or killed. They're just beggiing for it. It should have been abundantly clear to Israeli commanders that not standing down operations would most likely lead to this outcome. Likewise, it should have been abundantly clear to the leaders of the protest action that to not stand down THEIR operation would lead to this outcome. BOTH sides should have known death or dismemberment was a likely outcome. NEITHER side stood down operations.

FWIW as someone who has wrangled these big beasts, the fact that she climbed up on the rubble in front of the blade.... well that was just suicidal. Those machines jerk, yank, shift with the ground under them. There's a hundred ways somebody can get killed around heavy earth movers. Either she was too naive to understand this, or, she was just plain nuts.
 
2012-08-28 08:50:54 AM  

Gunslinger013: Tats - even you have to admit that American foreign policy goes to disproportionate amazing lengths to favor Israel. Something like this goes on long enough people get all tinfoil-hatty.


When you take the step from 'Well America supports Israel' to 'America is a Zionist Occupied Government! Viva Hamas!', then you're moving from a valid position into racism and tinfoilhattery.

Gunslinger013: You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?


Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags

Gunslinger013: I will admit I am not widely read on the ISM. I don't know their particular history or practices. The Palestinian people and Israel are already in a violent struggle. Is the bulldozing of homes not a terrorist act? Don't come back with the 'magical weapons tunnel' crap either. Maybe it was a tunnel this time (the article doesn't specify) but it is common knowledge that the IDF bulldozes homes.


The ISM is clearly not the only thing you know little about. You should definitely read more about the tunnels, since you seem to think its 'magical crap'
 
2012-08-28 08:51:32 AM  

Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?


Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".
 
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