How does an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?

cman: How can an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?


Fixt. Not asking for how I could sue, I was asking for how a sovereign nation could be forced to defend itself in a court of law by a lowly American citizen

I don't know what surveillance tapes Israel has that they are supposedly keeping back, and I don't know if they had external observers in communication with the bulldozer operator,

But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

Most of us learned not to play in construction sites around bulldozers or stand in the blind spots of cars or trucks.

Just because you're a protester doesn't magically impart immunity to you.

Will they have a pancake breakfast to celebrate?

RoyBatty: I don't know what surveillance tapes Israel has that they are supposedly keeping back, and I don't know if they had external observers in communication with the bulldozer operator,

But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

Most of us learned not to play in construction sites around bulldozers or stand in the blind spots of cars or trucks.

Just because you're a protester doesn't magically impart immunity to you.

Except she wasnt at a "construction site", she was at the home of a Palestinian family where she was a guest. That bulldozer wasnt there to build something it was there to destroy that families home.

FTA: "Judge Gershon invokes "combatant activities" exception, says US activist who was killed by IDF bulldozer in Gaza could have avoided dangerous situation."

By this reasoning Israel could also avoid Katusha rockets if they'd just move Sderot

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]

What if "HERE" is your yard where your family lived for 5 generations?

Frederick: RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]

What if "HERE" is your yard where your family lived for 5 generations?

I disagree with many of the Israeli policies.

But my main point is, don't stand in front of bulldozers, especially heavily armored bulldozers.

And if you're protesting the inhumane actions of a government that you detest by placing your body on the line, well, .... well there's a logic flaw there.

RoyBatty: And if you're protesting the inhumane actions of a government that you detest by placing your body on the line, well, .... well there's a logic flaw there.

Yeah, I cant argue that. She took that risk. And in a way I admire her passion. I dont have it. I've never put my life on the line for anything, let alone a belief.

I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff -well, except the Chinese are not Israelis and she was not as successful.

The whole thing over there is just tragedy piled on tragedy.

Frederick: I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff

That's where I disagree. Those men and women were Chinese citizens in China. Rachel was just, well...a butinski. I kind of blame her parents. There's video of her at ten years old making some kind of speech against world hunger. She kept repeating how she "cared". Later on she got interested in the Palestinian thing. She also use to appear in front of her food co-op handing out pro Palestinian flyers.From her wiki page:

After flying to Israel on January 22, 2003, Corrie underwent a two-day training course at ISM West Bank headquarters, before heading to Rafah to participate in ISM demonstrations.[6][8] During her training, Corrie studied tactics of direct action. Basic rules about avoiding harm were given, which a later article on the Corrie incident summarized as: "Wear fluorescent jackets. Don't run. Don't frighten the army. Try to communicate by megaphone. Make your presence known."[8] On January 27, 2003, Corrie and William Hewitt (also from Olympia), traveled to the Erez checkpoint and entered the Gaza Strip.[8]

So presto, decked out in her keffiyeh scarf she waltzes into a combat zone, i.e. the Gaza Strip, after two days of training. The locals thought her group was crazy and were a little suspicious of them. According to Wiki that made Rachel and the other protesters want to become more engaged and active in stopping the demolitions of housing. After all, she really cared so she had to prove that to the locals.

I have no doubt that some of the Palestinians welcomed her death as it brought in the press where otherwise nothing of the thousands of other deaths would do so. So Rachel was a blip on the radar, soon to be pretty much a nonevent in a decades old fight. It won't change the tide of events no matter how many websites, plays, or documentaries are made. I put her right up there with that John Walker Lindh dork. You want to go play where the spears are flying don't come crying to me when you get stuck.

Placing yourself in front of heavy machinery never ends well.

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.

I'd stand in front of a bulldozer, but I sure as shiat wouldn't clamber up the rotating pill of dirt that is being push along by it.

I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

deffuse: I'd stand in front of a bulldozer, but I sure as shiat wouldn't clamber up the rotating pile of dirt that is being push along by it.

FFM

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.

Dude, I've been called an anti-Semite racist by Fark's resident Super Jew in Israel related threads. This isn't a case of apologizing for Israel. This is a case of "Don't get in front of a mother farking bulldozer."

Uncle Tractor: What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?

Be non-Jewish on a sunny day.

jrw8778: Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her.

Oh, and this?

Dude, I have heavy equipment where the cab sound levels are at over 100 decibels. Just from the engine. Construction equipment is *loud*.

tjassen: But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark? any discussion about Israel ever, in the history of ever.

FTFY

SkunkWerks: ShannonKW: Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself.

Yeah, I said that already. I don't get why anyone would put themselves in a place where they will be martyred by way of negligence rather than deliberateness. In other words, protests work best when they're visible.

But expecting the professional protester to leave the scene of a protest "like any thinking person" merely because "it's a dangerous place to be in" seems to belie a lack of thought on the judge's part as well. Protests often involve being in dangerous places- often as a part of the symbolism they're meant to evoke.

ShannonKW: If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward.

So far, I see a Kneeling-Out-of-Sight version and a Standing-Perfectly-Visible-Where-She-Was-Callously-Run-Down-With-Clear -Intent version.

The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters... so far. As I've mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the details of the incident, and the article at the top of the thread really doesn't mention them. Nothing here is "straightforward" to me here. Not yet.

Well the tank went fairly straightforward by all accounts.

See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:


This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.


There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding


This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.


She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.

Frederick: Except she wasnt at a "construction site", she was at the home of a Palestinian family where she was a guest. That bulldozer wasnt there to build something it was there to destroy that families home.

Except that this lie has been debunked over and over and over again. Especially easy to know since, you know, no houses were destroyed and videos and pictures of the incident clearly shows that they weren't around houses.

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

There are videos, and that's a lie. Facts, not your friends.

This thread is hilarious. And completely expected.

SkunkWerks: The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters...

I have provided a picture, and pointed out you could see the video on youtube and other places.

NicoFinn: Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.

[i1178.photobucket.com image 603x315]

Sure did!

Tatsuma killed a guy. With a trident

Subby said Israel 4 times. He must really like Israel.

mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

K-K-K-Ken's c-c-c-c-coming to k-k-k-k-k-kill me.

Tatsuma:

Wedding still on hold?

2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking

Least I could do. Are you in the age range for the draft? Now that the religious exemption has been done away with you may be very busy indeed.

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

And whenever someone disagrees with your bullshiat you ignore them... point?

mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly

Tatsuma: See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:


This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.


There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding


This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.


She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.

You post all this like she did something wrong.

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly

As opposed to peacefully bulldozing people homes?

Gunslinger013: Tats - even you have to admit that American foreign policy goes to disproportionate amazing lengths to favor Israel. Something like this goes on long enough people get all tinfoil-hatty.

When you take the step from 'Well America supports Israel' to 'America is a Zionist Occupied Government! Viva Hamas!', then you're moving from a valid position into racism and tinfoilhattery.

Gunslinger013: You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?

Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags

Gunslinger013: I will admit I am not widely read on the ISM. I don't know their particular history or practices. The Palestinian people and Israel are already in a violent struggle. Is the bulldozing of homes not a terrorist act? Don't come back with the 'magical weapons tunnel' crap either. Maybe it was a tunnel this time (the article doesn't specify) but it is common knowledge that the IDF bulldozes homes.

The ISM is clearly not the only thing you know little about. You should definitely read more about the tunnels, since you seem to think its 'magical crap'

SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.

... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)

SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

Bloody leopards.

mrexcess: Rachel Corrie was a girl who died while protesting the demolition of a family's home. It's that simple, basic fact that all the politics obscures, sometimes quite deliberately.

Except that she did not die protecting some family's house. No house was demolished that day. No house was set to be demolished that day. You can clearly see that she was not protecting a house in all the pictures and videos

Again, just lies and insults rather than facts and polite discussions.

SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.

... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking

[Threadjack]
I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?
[/threadjack]

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.

... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.

Does this mean you'll go away?

don't be a tease.

I just don't see how standing in the blind spot of an armored bulldozer could be a bad thing. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that I shouldn't play in traffic.

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.

... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)

How many wheels are on your goalposts anyways?

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.

She was killed by a slab of concrete and a lot of dirt. She was not run over by the treads. It was her own actions that got her killed. She was not murdered. Palestinian apologists really need to get a grip.

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.

She wasn't MURDERED you idiot. It was an accident. The guy driving the bulldozer wasn't some highly trained Mossad officer with evil intentions, he was probably some 19 year old Combat Engineer draftee who had been told to go bulldoze something. He was in a hot, armored box, with crappy visibility (where there wasn't armored plate blocking his view, he probably had 3 inches of scratched up bullet proof glass), and an unmuffled engine that would keep him from hearing anything that was going on outside. And I'm sure he didn't care at all about the idiots outside, he was just trying to do his job well enough to keep his Sergeant off his ass, and maybe get a pass for the weekend so he could go home and bang little Susie Rottencrotch, or whatever the Israeli equivalent is.

This girl was on top of a berm that he was trying to bulldoze. He probably looked down at his controls for a second when he hit it, and wen he looked up, she was gone. He probably assumed she had some sort of brain in her head and had gotten down and out of the way of the multi-ton piece of equipment.

As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

And the 'dozer "ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her". Or, you could say "the bulldozer operator, not seeing her, and ignoring the screaming unwashed hippies who were trying to annoy him yet again, drove forward into the berm again, then backed up to hit it one more time, when he realized he'd accidentally run over someone, and probably feels like shait about it."

This was an industrial accident, just because the guy running the bulldozer was doing something you disapprove of, it doesn't make it murder. Accidents happen.

devildog123: As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

Speaking as someone who has run heavy construction sites and mines, I doubt he even heard them.

Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

To be fair its not Tats the throwing Anti-semite around left and right. But pointing that out will probably make me anti-semite to some.

BronyMedic: Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.

I know, right? In this thread we have Tatsuma, who is either the Jewiest Jew to every Jew Jewism on the Internet or a troll, who has me on ignore for criticizing Israeli asshole behavior in other threads, and then we have anti-Israeli trolls who claim that anyone who isn't calling Israel a bunch of murdering jerks is a shrill.

Both sides are bad, so eat humus.

SkunkWerks: Hummus is awesome. I have to say.

Yeah, now I'm thinking of lamb and hummus for dinner. Maybe some kibbe too. Or falafel.

Of course, bbq is still an option.

Flab: I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?

It partly was, yes. Both to finish my degree and this. Finished my degree, however did not find a suitable match who wanted to live in Israel

Happy Hours: My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

I am fairly sure that those were stars of david, because she also made comments about america being ZOG and she was protesting the invasion of Iraq at the behest of Israel by the ZOG American government

bostonguy: / Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?

Jerusalem, with Yeshiva I can't very well traipse off to tel aviv whenever I want

BronyMedic: Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

Please show me where I did that in this thread tyia

tjassen: ///We'll have to take pictures otherwise everyone will think its Tatsuma alone in a corner with a beer for each of his alts.

hey, if I have a beer for every alt, i will be sober

worst fark party ever

bostonguy: Tats and I had e-mailed about having a Fark Party at Mike's Place in Jerusalem, but we never got around to having it. Perhaps we can all plan one there in a month or so?

that'd be awesome

but yeah jerusalem

Ebbelwoi: Likewise, it should have been abundantly clear to the leaders of the protest action that to not stand down THEIR operation would lead to this outcome.

According to the wikipedia, ISM leaders knowing, willfully, put their protester's lives at risk.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.

You're right, we would feel sympathy with the little girl, whereas Corrie was just acting stupidly after having been trained stupidly by a bunch of assholes longing for her death in order to make an international scene.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.

If you send the National Guard onto a University Campus and they shoot at unarmed students, you may be an asshat.

If you send your protesters, with 2 days training, into a military operation, knowing and anticipating their deaths, you may be an asshat.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.

I don't know what she was trying to prevent, but it's clear the IDF felt they had legal grounds to believe the house held tunnels, and there is clear testimony even from ISM that the IDF usually stopped before hitting protesters when they knew they were there, and that visibility out of those bulldozers is terrible.

Adults with rationality and agency don't stand in front of bulldozers. They especially don't stand in front of military bulldozers on a day when the soldiers are being shot at or having hand grenades thrown at them.

So you want me to believe either:

A) Rachel Corrie was not an adult with rationality or agency and so not responsible for her actions, or
B) Rachel Corrie was an adult with rationality or agency and so responsible for her actions

Either way you don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want her on that berm, you need her on that berm, or underneath the bulldozer.

You and ISM will order that code red to try and make a martyr for your own needs.

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

More like 'it's slightly suspicious given the rest of Israel's actions', but yeah, if she was actually kneeling and not in full view, nonstory.

Now, if those tapes happened to show that she wasn't...

SkunkWerks: So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?

Who?

ISM?

I would think the way people protest around the world, with placards off to the side and papier mache puppets taking video and documenting it, then posting it on the net, or if they really think they can stop a military operation from a government that they detest and decry as having all of these inhumane war crime operations, than with enough people and supervisors, etc., to keep their protesters safe. (Link arms around the building, don't stand on the berm in front of the bulldozer.)

The wikipedia (which is warring about today) still says ISM did this knowingly, and sent her in after two days of training.

Tatsuma's picture seems to show that Corrie really wasn't some neutral observer in this.

Shortly before the Iraq War began, several American citizens went to Iraq to put their bodies in front of, I forget what it was, but I think it was actually refineries or some such, and oddly, and my memory is probably totally wrong on this, Hussein sent them back. But had they died as they claimed they were willing to, and their families sued the US for negligence, a lot of us, even those of us (like me) against the Iraq War would be "WTF?"

SkunkWerks: But generally speaking I think that critiquing the whole "but, they were going into a WAR ZONE" scenario again seems kinda demonstrably obvious. Any protest scenario is potentially dangerous.

So generally, I've been told that the police are trained to handle civilians, and the military is not, so it's one thing to protest against a line of cops (even though we've seen at Occupy and WTO protests the cops don't always do a great job of it) but protesting against the military who has very little training on how to handle civilians is even riskier.

It seems like a terrible accident, but ISM should not have placed her there, and if they did so on purpose, they should man up and take responsibility for it.

SkunkWerks: And of course how justified she felt about the risk in no way changes how her parents feel on the matter.

If this happened to one of my kids, you're damn right I'd be suing.

This is from a Mother Jones article, sympathetic to Rachel Corrie. It describes how ISM is not a neutral particpant, how they support armed struggle and violence, how poorly they train their people (don't drink alcohol, wear hijab, no sex, no drugs, and yes, don't scare the army), and how they intentionally put their people at risk. That's sympathetic coverage.



Link

SkunkWerks: I'm also not entirely sure what the fuss is about the ISM "advocating armed struggle".

Armed struggle might be a declared war, but I think it's usually more like suicide bombings and rocket attacks into civilians.

As a result, I fear for my college ruled papers. Thanks a lot.

It seems to be a reasonable fear, because apparently she was getting college credit for this independent study program....

SkunkWerks: Or demolishing people's houses, or blowing up people's houses.

Fwiw, the people aren't in the houses when the IDF comes along to bulldoze them, but the people are in the buses and cafes.

Don't think I heard that bit of the story.

That was in the Mother Jones article up above.

SkunkWerks: RoyBatty: FwiwVery little, honestly

Well, you and I will have to differ on that.

You have to admit, for a sympathetic article, they did a pretty good job of playing fair about the university's Character.

In that article why is every instance of ISM (except for one) capitalized? Bad search and replace?