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(Jerusalem Post)   Israeli court rules Israel not at fault in 2003 killing by Israeli military of non-Israeli activist Rachel Corrie   (jpost.com) divider line 265
    More: Followup, Rachel Corrie, Israelis, IDF, bulldozers, diplomacies, court ruling  
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2942 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2012 at 6:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-28 02:53:04 AM  
so much for a "jury of your peers" eh?
 
2012-08-28 03:02:47 AM  
How does an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?
 
2012-08-28 03:04:27 AM  

cman: How can an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?



Fixt. Not asking for how I could sue, I was asking for how a sovereign nation could be forced to defend itself in a court of law by a lowly American citizen
 
2012-08-28 03:11:03 AM  
I don't know what surveillance tapes Israel has that they are supposedly keeping back, and I don't know if they had external observers in communication with the bulldozer operator,

But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

Most of us learned not to play in construction sites around bulldozers or stand in the blind spots of cars or trucks.

Just because you're a protester doesn't magically impart immunity to you.
 
2012-08-28 03:15:12 AM  
Will they have a pancake breakfast to celebrate?
 
2012-08-28 03:39:31 AM  

RoyBatty: I don't know what surveillance tapes Israel has that they are supposedly keeping back, and I don't know if they had external observers in communication with the bulldozer operator,

But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

Most of us learned not to play in construction sites around bulldozers or stand in the blind spots of cars or trucks.

Just because you're a protester doesn't magically impart immunity to you.


Except she wasnt at a "construction site", she was at the home of a Palestinian family where she was a guest. That bulldozer wasnt there to build something it was there to destroy that families home.

FTA: "Judge Gershon invokes "combatant activities" exception, says US activist who was killed by IDF bulldozer in Gaza could have avoided dangerous situation."

By this reasoning Israel could also avoid Katusha rockets if they'd just move Sderot
 
2012-08-28 03:43:30 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 04:02:19 AM  

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]


What if "HERE" is your yard where your family lived for 5 generations?
 
2012-08-28 04:06:54 AM  

Frederick: RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]

What if "HERE" is your yard where your family lived for 5 generations?


I disagree with many of the Israeli policies.

But my main point is, don't stand in front of bulldozers, especially heavily armored bulldozers.

And if you're protesting the inhumane actions of a government that you detest by placing your body on the line, well, .... well there's a logic flaw there.
 
2012-08-28 04:22:13 AM  

RoyBatty: Frederick: RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]

What if "HERE" is your yard where your family lived for 5 generations?

I disagree with many of the Israeli policies.

But my main point is, don't stand in front of bulldozers, especially heavily armored bulldozers.

And if you're protesting the inhumane actions of a government that you detest by placing your body on the line, well, .... well there's a logic flaw there.


According to Wikipedia she was actually kneeling in front of the bulldozer immediately before this happened. I'm not familiar with this other than what I just read in the article and on her Wikipedia page but just based on that I don't see how you can come to a solid conclusion as to fault without choosing sides - either Israel is evil and they killed her on purpose or Israel would never do that and it was just a horrible accident. 

Oh, and since this is Fark, it seems I should post this:

www.ericthered.net
 
2012-08-28 04:33:09 AM  

RoyBatty: And if you're protesting the inhumane actions of a government that you detest by placing your body on the line, well, .... well there's a logic flaw there.


Yeah, I cant argue that. She took that risk. And in a way I admire her passion. I dont have it. I've never put my life on the line for anything, let alone a belief.

I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff -well, except the Chinese are not Israelis and she was not as successful.
 
2012-08-28 04:41:11 AM  
The whole thing over there is just tragedy piled on tragedy.
 
2012-08-28 05:11:25 AM  

Frederick: I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff


That's where I disagree. Those men and women were Chinese citizens in China. Rachel was just, well...a butinski. I kind of blame her parents. There's video of her at ten years old making some kind of speech against world hunger. She kept repeating how she "cared". Later on she got interested in the Palestinian thing. She also use to appear in front of her food co-op handing out pro Palestinian flyers.From her wiki page:

After flying to Israel on January 22, 2003, Corrie underwent a two-day training course at ISM West Bank headquarters, before heading to Rafah to participate in ISM demonstrations.[6][8] During her training, Corrie studied tactics of direct action. Basic rules about avoiding harm were given, which a later article on the Corrie incident summarized as: "Wear fluorescent jackets. Don't run. Don't frighten the army. Try to communicate by megaphone. Make your presence known."[8] On January 27, 2003, Corrie and William Hewitt (also from Olympia), traveled to the Erez checkpoint and entered the Gaza Strip.[8]

So presto, decked out in her keffiyeh scarf she waltzes into a combat zone, i.e. the Gaza Strip, after two days of training. The locals thought her group was crazy and were a little suspicious of them. According to Wiki that made Rachel and the other protesters want to become more engaged and active in stopping the demolitions of housing. After all, she really cared so she had to prove that to the locals.

I have no doubt that some of the Palestinians welcomed her death as it brought in the press where otherwise nothing of the thousands of other deaths would do so. So Rachel was a blip on the radar, soon to be pretty much a nonevent in a decades old fight. It won't change the tide of events no matter how many websites, plays, or documentaries are made. I put her right up there with that John Walker Lindh dork. You want to go play where the spears are flying don't come crying to me when you get stuck.
 
2012-08-28 06:16:19 AM  
israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.
 
2012-08-28 06:19:15 AM  
Placing yourself in front of heavy machinery never ends well.

graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2012-08-28 06:20:28 AM  

fusillade762: Placing yourself in front of heavy machinery never ends well.

[graphics8.nytimes.com image 395x234]


Just ask Arthur Dent.
 
2012-08-28 06:22:45 AM  

RoyBatty: well there's a logic flaw there.


photos1.blogger.com
 
2012-08-28 06:25:58 AM  

robohobo: israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.


as long as we can ship them back in 20yrs
 
2012-08-28 06:37:09 AM  

cman: cman: How can an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?


Fixt. Not asking for how I could sue, I was asking for how a sovereign nation could be forced to defend itself in a court of law by a lowly American citizen


Google 'Federal long arm statute' for one, iirc.

Lawyer, but it's been ages since I studied that stuff...
 
2012-08-28 06:38:16 AM  
Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.
 
2012-08-28 06:38:36 AM  

SkunkWerks: RoyBatty: well there's a logic flaw there.

[photos1.blogger.com image 576x432]


She really should have gone to the pub for a few pints of bitter
 
2012-08-28 06:50:17 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: SkunkWerks: RoyBatty: well there's a logic flaw there.

[photos1.blogger.com image 576x432]

She really should have gone to the pub for a few pints of bitter


Whilst getting the IDF officer in charge to kneel down in front of the Bulldozer in her place. I mean, it's pretty much agreed on that she'd be there all day anyway...
 
2012-08-28 06:50:29 AM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.
 
2012-08-28 06:56:26 AM  

Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?


Get the fark out of the way of the heavy machinery bearing down on me.

What would you do? Die?
 
2012-08-28 06:59:12 AM  
28.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-08-28 06:59:20 AM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


I *do* mock her relentlessly....
 
2012-08-28 06:59:56 AM  
From the Beeb:

Judge Oded Gershon, presiding at the court in the town of Haifa, said Ms Corrie had been protecting terrorists in a designated combat zone.

He said the bulldozer driver had not seen her, adding the soldiers had done their utmost to keep people away from the site. "She [Corrie] did not distance herself from the area, as any thinking person would have done."


Straight talker, for a judge. Really, it's all that needs to be said about the matter.
 
2012-08-28 07:01:44 AM  

Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?


I would probably move out of the way. But luckily I live in a country of laws where some native american can't bulldoze my house because he had an ancestor living there 1500 years ago.

Statute of limitations, Israel. Learn what it means.
 
2012-08-28 07:04:35 AM  

ShannonKW: From the Beeb:

Judge Oded Gershon, presiding at the court in the town of Haifa, said Ms Corrie had been protecting terrorists in a designated combat zone.

He said the bulldozer driver had not seen her, adding the soldiers had done their utmost to keep people away from the site. "She [Corrie] did not distance herself from the area, as any thinking person would have done."

Straight talker, for a judge. Really, it's all that needs to be said about the matter.


Apparently thinking people never protest anything. They certainly don't put their lives on the line in an act of selflessness and symbolism.

Thinking people never do that. Clearly.


That said, symbols do need to be seen, and I am kinda wondering why you'd intentionally put yourself in a position where the driver can't see you. I get why you might find yourself in the path of a bulldozer as a matter of protest. As Corrie was a protester, this kind of stuff had to be almost routine, I'd imagine.

She got sloppy... I guess?
 
2012-08-28 07:06:53 AM  
I'd stand in front of a bulldozer, but I sure as shiat wouldn't clamber up the rotating pill of dirt that is being push along by it.
 
2012-08-28 07:07:21 AM  
I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.
 
2012-08-28 07:07:59 AM  

deffuse: I'd stand in front of a bulldozer, but I sure as shiat wouldn't clamber up the rotating pile of dirt that is being push along by it.


FFM
 
2012-08-28 07:17:31 AM  
The state, he continued, was not responsible for any "damages caused" due to the combat situation but nonetheless called Corrie's death a "regrettable accident."


Except for... you know... mowing down the girl with the bulldozer.
 
2012-08-28 07:18:46 AM  

Frederick: BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.


You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private. Also, was the land truly privately owned? If you don't know, you should check out there property laws.

The reason this girl is dead is because she wasn't smarter/tougher than the bulldozer.

The reason she was in front of the bulldozer is inconsiquential.
 
2012-08-28 07:19:18 AM  
For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.
 
2012-08-28 07:20:17 AM  
The people who deliberately murdered Rachel Corrie are now lying about it?

Shocked, I'm shocked.
 
2012-08-28 07:22:21 AM  
It's true, it was Corries fault that Israel bulldozes people's homes and farms as part of their calculated land grab.
 
2012-08-28 07:22:40 AM  

Frederick: BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.


Simple. Get the fark out of the way...

I may not like it, but preservation of life comes first. Make sure everyone is evacuated from the building, grab the essentials, and live to fight another day.

/don't agree with the Isreali policy here
//not going to die for it
///judge's reasoning behind verdict is still chickenpoop
 
2012-08-28 07:22:45 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


Dude, I've been called an anti-Semite racist by Fark's resident Super Jew in Israel related threads. This isn't a case of apologizing for Israel. This is a case of "Don't get in front of a mother farking bulldozer."
 
2012-08-28 07:23:31 AM  

SkunkWerks: Apparently thinking people never protest anything. They certainly don't put their lives on the line in an act of selflessness and symbolism.

Thinking people never do that. Clearly.


Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself. If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward. OTOH, if she wasn't intending to severely endanger her life, it was absurdly foolish to act as she did. This has nothing to do with the justice of her cause nor the wisdom of staging protests in general. Any protester who expects to survive the protest, but acts in a way that is obviously likely to kill her, is not thinking clearly.
 
2012-08-28 07:24:30 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.


For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2012-08-28 07:26:26 AM  

jaybeezey: You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private.


What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?
 
2012-08-28 07:26:38 AM  

tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]


Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.
 
2012-08-28 07:27:24 AM  

Uncle Tractor: What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?


Be non-Jewish on a sunny day.
 
2012-08-28 07:28:38 AM  
encrypted-tbn3.google.com


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO O OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 
2012-08-28 07:29:19 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


This goofy farkstick would like a citation. Honestly I'm not familiar with the particulars of this incident, and the link at the top of this thread doesn't get into detail.

So, until I see some preponderance of evidence here it's just a bunch of people posting their own pet version of what happened.

/goofy like that
 
2012-08-28 07:31:52 AM  
FaRk YoU Israeli Court, judge, and military.

That is all.
 
2012-08-28 07:32:19 AM  

jrw8778: Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her.


Oh, and this?

Dude, I have heavy equipment where the cab sound levels are at over 100 decibels. Just from the engine. Construction equipment is *loud*.
 
2012-08-28 07:34:46 AM  
Look, I'm gonna start swinging my arms around and walking toward you. It's not my fault when you get hit by my arms. Protesters are just stupid. As long as they are trying to defend something I oppose. Like the people living on the land I was given by edict 60 years ago that they and their ancestors lived on for millenia before that. I was also given weapons and material to "defend" "my" land. If they wanted the land more, they get something better than "human shields".
 
2012-08-28 07:35:48 AM  
American foreign policy says that Israel is never at fault for anything anyway.
 
2012-08-28 07:36:47 AM  
"Hey everybody, stop shooting. I'm an American!"
 
2012-08-28 07:37:53 AM  

Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.


I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?
 
2012-08-28 07:38:54 AM  

ShannonKW: Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself.


Yeah, I said that already. I don't get why anyone would put themselves in a place where they will be martyred by way of negligence rather than deliberateness. In other words, protests work best when they're visible.

But expecting the professional protester to leave the scene of a protest "like any thinking person" merely because "it's a dangerous place to be in" seems to belie a lack of thought on the judge's part as well. Protests often involve being in dangerous places- often as a part of the symbolism they're meant to evoke.

ShannonKW: If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward.


So far, I see a Kneeling-Out-of-Sight version and a Standing-Perfectly-Visible-Where-She-Was-Callously-Run-Down-With-Clear -Intent version.

The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters... so far. As I've mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the details of the incident, and the article at the top of the thread really doesn't mention them. Nothing here is "straightforward" to me here. Not yet.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:06 AM  
Not the first time the IDF has killed Americans, nor the last.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:28 AM  
Fact: Israel is just as bad as anyone else. No better. No worse.

Fact: Standing in front of a piece of heavy machinery could get you killed on any job site in the world where no politics are involved. It's a farking dumb thing to do.
 
2012-08-28 07:39:59 AM  

tjassen: But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

any discussion about Israel ever, in the history of ever.

FTFY
 
2012-08-28 07:41:18 AM  

SkunkWerks: ShannonKW: Apparently the judge assumed that she did not intend to martyr herself.

Yeah, I said that already. I don't get why anyone would put themselves in a place where they will be martyred by way of negligence rather than deliberateness. In other words, protests work best when they're visible.

But expecting the professional protester to leave the scene of a protest "like any thinking person" merely because "it's a dangerous place to be in" seems to belie a lack of thought on the judge's part as well. Protests often involve being in dangerous places- often as a part of the symbolism they're meant to evoke.

ShannonKW: If that were assumed, it certainly wouldn't have been the IDF's responsibility that she chose to commit suicide by bulldozer, and the case might have been even more straightforward.

So far, I see a Kneeling-Out-of-Sight version and a Standing-Perfectly-Visible-Where-She-Was-Callously-Run-Down-With-Clear -Intent version.

The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters... so far. As I've mentioned, I'm unfamiliar with the details of the incident, and the article at the top of the thread really doesn't mention them. Nothing here is "straightforward" to me here. Not yet.


Well the tank went fairly straightforward by all accounts.
 
2012-08-28 07:42:14 AM  
See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:
www.kabobfest.com

This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.
www.thejc.com

There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:
i139.photobucket.com

There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding
www.israeli-weapons.com

This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.
www.think-israel.org

She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.
 
2012-08-28 07:42:29 AM  
Did she forget her towel?
 
2012-08-28 07:47:26 AM  

Frederick: Except she wasnt at a "construction site", she was at the home of a Palestinian family where she was a guest. That bulldozer wasnt there to build something it was there to destroy that families home.


Except that this lie has been debunked over and over and over again. Especially easy to know since, you know, no houses were destroyed and videos and pictures of the incident clearly shows that they weren't around houses.
 
2012-08-28 07:48:17 AM  

Tatsuma: Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


Completely indistinguishable from settlers. Is that supposed to mean something?
 
2012-08-28 07:51:30 AM  
Whoa, guys, tone it down. There's really only one question that should be considered. Was she hot?
 
2012-08-28 07:51:57 AM  

Uncle Tractor: jaybeezey: You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private.

What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?


Dig tunnels into Egypt to smuggle arms.

You do realize that Israel pulled out of Gaza, right? How exacly was that zionist living space? Even when they had settlements Rafah wasn't one of them.
 
2012-08-28 07:53:56 AM  
Well this thread went downhill quickly.
 
2012-08-28 07:56:58 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.


There are videos, and that's a lie. Facts, not your friends.
 
2012-08-28 07:57:19 AM  
This thread is hilarious. And completely expected.
 
2012-08-28 07:58:43 AM  

SkunkWerks: The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters...


I have provided a picture, and pointed out you could see the video on youtube and other places.
 
2012-08-28 08:00:43 AM  

Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.


i1178.photobucket.com

Sure did!
 
2012-08-28 08:03:21 AM  
So what we learn from this incident is not to be somewhere where you have already been warned could be fatal to your health. Ta da.

//Your family looking for a court ruling that you may have been surprised by the outcome does not add to the knowledge pool.
 
2012-08-28 08:07:54 AM  

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: The only source for either of these versions is Fark Commenters...

I have provided a picture, and pointed out you could see the video on youtube and other places.


You provided what amounts to a Daily Mail article- which is to say, slanted in it's narrative, mostly comprised of pictures to wow (and possibly confuse) readers whose last great achievement in literature was a pop-up book. Incidentally it's a tried-and-true approach. National Geographic pretty much pioneered it. You also have a pretty clear bias, if I may observe.

As for videos, well, you'll excuse me if I judiciously avoid questions from co-workers about just what the hell it is I am watching. Perhaps later. But on the subject of video- I do note that this article points to video of the occurrence that- though it appeared in TV documentaries of the incident- it's strangely disappeared since and the IDF denies it's existence.

For now, I've been skimming the Wikipedia article, which indicates numerous conflicting eyewitness accounts on just what the hell happened there. You'll have to pardon me if I remain unmoved.
 
2012-08-28 08:10:00 AM  

NicoFinn: Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.

[i1178.photobucket.com image 603x315]

Sure did!


Tatsuma killed a guy. With a trident
 
2012-08-28 08:14:00 AM  
Subby said Israel 4 times. He must really like Israel.
 
2012-08-28 08:17:33 AM  
Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.
 
2012-08-28 08:17:40 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: NicoFinn: Halli: Well this thread went downhill quickly.

[i1178.photobucket.com image 603x315]

Sure did!

Tatsuma killed a guy. With a trident


Frederick pooped in the refrigerator and ate a whole wheel of cheese.
 
2012-08-28 08:19:13 AM  

mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.


Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead
 
2012-08-28 08:19:16 AM  
Tatsuma...superjew till the end...
 
2012-08-28 08:23:08 AM  

mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.


He has these things ready for cut and paste. Gots to get paid.
 
2012-08-28 08:23:47 AM  
t0.gstatic.com

If Evergreen had a home economics department, the Corries would still have their daughter and some lucky guy would have a cute little domestic goddess.
 
2012-08-28 08:27:11 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead


Calling people nazis or anti-semites still ok though.
 
2012-08-28 08:30:35 AM  
K-K-K-Ken's c-c-c-c-coming to k-k-k-k-k-kill me.
 
2012-08-28 08:31:38 AM  
Tatsuma:

Wedding still on hold?
 
2012-08-28 08:32:21 AM  

2wolves: Wedding still on hold?


Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking
 
2012-08-28 08:33:52 AM  

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking


Least I could do. Are you in the age range for the draft? Now that the religious exemption has been done away with you may be very busy indeed.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:02 AM  
I can't even bring myself to click on the article. Israel makes me sick. I am an American and I wish we would stop supporting that nation, at least until it makes some sort of attempt to comply with international law. What they're doing in Gaza is nothing less than an extermination, but unless you seek out the news for yourself, all Americans hear about is when some desperate moron blows himself up in a nightclub in Tel Aviv. I'm going to stop before I Godwin the hell out of this, but I will simply say that if Canada somehow was able to occupy my neighborhood and went to mow my shiat down, I would not be simply "Standing in the way." The driver is going to be blown up.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:12 AM  

robohobo: israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.


Hardly. There will ne an overabundance of religious fanatics with far fewer targets to froth at the mouth about.
 
2012-08-28 08:39:47 AM  

robohobo: israel needs to diaf. after shipping their hot women here.


Hardly. There will be an overabundance of religious fanatics with far fewer targets to froth at the mouth about.
 
2012-08-28 08:40:36 AM  
Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.
 
2012-08-28 08:40:39 AM  
Court? Israel? HA!
 
2012-08-28 08:42:27 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Whenever Tatsuma starts in on one of his 3 page long posts, you know you're being fed some bullshiat.

Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead


And whenever someone disagrees with your bullshiat you ignore them... point?
 
2012-08-28 08:43:21 AM  

mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly
 
2012-08-28 08:44:06 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


To be fair, he did provide proof.
 
2012-08-28 08:46:20 AM  
Tatsuma: Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:

Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?


When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.


Anyone else bother to do a text search in the original article for the word 'tunnels'?

She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America

Tats - even you have to admit that American foreign policy goes to disproportionate amazing lengths to favor Israel. Something like this goes on long enough people get all tinfoil-hatty.

someone who hated America

You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?

The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate.

I will admit I am not widely read on the ISM. I don't know their particular history or practices. The Palestinian people and Israel are already in a violent struggle. Is the bulldozing of homes not a terrorist act? Don't come back with the 'magical weapons tunnel' crap either. Maybe it was a tunnel this time (the article doesn't specify) but it is common knowledge that the IDF bulldozes homes.

There are two sides to this issue. Presenting Israel as the innocent victim only acting in self defense falls somewhere between ignorant disingenuous.
 
2012-08-28 08:46:52 AM  

fusillade762: Placing yourself in front of heavy machinery never ends well.


That man fought his own government for equality and freedom. Rachel was a U.S. hating fearmonger. I'm willing to own up to our right wing whackjobs like Todd Akin and his derp; but you guys have to admit to some of yours on the left. And Rachel Corrie was about as extremist left as you can get.
 
2012-08-28 08:47:54 AM  

Tatsuma: See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:


This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.


There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in Gaza on the spot where Rachel Corrie died.

Here are a few ISM members chilling with their friends:


There are many valid groups that are there to genuinely try and advance the rights of the Arab residents of Gaza or Judea and Samaria. This is not an innocent group.


The IDF was not in the area to do anything nefarious, they were there in order to destroy tunnels that were used to smuggle weapons and other materials used to kill civilians. She was trying to prevent the IDF from doing that.

This is not what innocents do.

However, none of that would justify murdering her. And this is not what happened.

What happened, and was caught on camera, is simply this:

an IDF officer testified that Corrie and other activists had spent "hours" trying to block the bulldozers under his command. On that day, they were only clearing "vegetation and rubble", and no houses were slated for demolition. He went on to say that it was "a war zone where Palestinian militants used abandoned homes as firing positions" and exploited foreign activists for cover. He shouted over a megaphone for the activists to leave, tried to use tear gas to disperse them and moved his troops several times. "To my regret, after the eighth time, (Corrie) hid behind an earth embankment. The D9 operator didn't see her. She thought he saw her," he said. An operational log submitted to the court showed that the officer reported a grenade thrown at his troops about 40 minutes before Corrie's death.[29]

It is sad that she died, but she put herself in danger. She hid herself from the view of the D9, which incidentally doesn't have a great view of its surrounding


This is because they have to be heavily armored in order to deflects attacks by snipers.

She hid in a ditch where she couldn't be seen by the driver, and she was not killed by being ran over, but rather a slab of concrete hit her. She died of subsequent injuries. A death that could have been avoided, had she been treated immediately, rather than left to lie around by her ISM friends and her handlers. She was more useful as a martyr, after all.

Unedited footage (because the ISM loves to edit it and try to make it look intentional) is available, as well as the transmissions from the cockpit. It is very clear that this was not intentional, that he did not see her and that's how she died.


She was behind that mound, and she died because she played chicken for hours with a bulldozer in a military zone. Something that ISM members are trained to do, and routinely engage in.

She was not innocent, and she died through her own decisions.


You post all this like she did something wrong.
 
2012-08-28 08:48:04 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly


As opposed to peacefully bulldozing people homes?
 
2012-08-28 08:48:07 AM  

Tatsuma: mrexcess: Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.

She was burning an American flag with stars of david, declared America was ZOG and supported Hamas.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas. They say so openly


So again, they're like Israeli settlers. They just support violent actions by the IDF instead.
 
2012-08-28 08:49:51 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
Whenever mrexcess holds a position that can't be substantiated by fact, he just attacks the poster instead

Funny, now you have concern for the facts and for the use of ad hominem. Just a minute ago, you were labeling a dead peace activist an America hating terrorist supporter.

Your scales are unbalanced, sir.


His labeling of Corrie was based off of facts.

ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

As far as hating America, if you like to hang around kids, draw american flags with jewish stars then rip it up and burn it, I am ok witht he label of "American hating".
 
2012-08-28 08:50:11 AM  
I've operated similar equipment in the Army (Essayons!). In that situation it would be clear to me that someone is going to get hurt or killed. They're just beggiing for it. It should have been abundantly clear to Israeli commanders that not standing down operations would most likely lead to this outcome. Likewise, it should have been abundantly clear to the leaders of the protest action that to not stand down THEIR operation would lead to this outcome. BOTH sides should have known death or dismemberment was a likely outcome. NEITHER side stood down operations.

FWIW as someone who has wrangled these big beasts, the fact that she climbed up on the rubble in front of the blade.... well that was just suicidal. Those machines jerk, yank, shift with the ground under them. There's a hundred ways somebody can get killed around heavy earth movers. Either she was too naive to understand this, or, she was just plain nuts.
 
2012-08-28 08:50:54 AM  

Gunslinger013: Tats - even you have to admit that American foreign policy goes to disproportionate amazing lengths to favor Israel. Something like this goes on long enough people get all tinfoil-hatty.


When you take the step from 'Well America supports Israel' to 'America is a Zionist Occupied Government! Viva Hamas!', then you're moving from a valid position into racism and tinfoilhattery.

Gunslinger013: You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?


Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags

Gunslinger013: I will admit I am not widely read on the ISM. I don't know their particular history or practices. The Palestinian people and Israel are already in a violent struggle. Is the bulldozing of homes not a terrorist act? Don't come back with the 'magical weapons tunnel' crap either. Maybe it was a tunnel this time (the article doesn't specify) but it is common knowledge that the IDF bulldozes homes.


The ISM is clearly not the only thing you know little about. You should definitely read more about the tunnels, since you seem to think its 'magical crap'
 
2012-08-28 08:51:32 AM  

Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?


Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".
 
2012-08-28 08:53:06 AM  

Tatsuma: Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags


Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.
 
2012-08-28 08:54:18 AM  

fatalvenom: You post all this like she did something wrong.


She obviously is anti-semitic because she's pro palestinian, therefore she did something wrong.

With tats, there's no middle ground -- if you don't agree with him, you're antisemitic.

Just because you don't want the wanton destruction between two clashing cultures and you support the underdog, does not mean you hate the other one...
 
2012-08-28 08:54:26 AM  

SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.


... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)
 
2012-08-28 08:54:34 AM  
Rachel Corrie was a girl who died while protesting the demolition of a family's home. It's that simple, basic fact that all the politics obscures, sometimes quite deliberately.

She wasn't there because she cared about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as some clash of civilizations in which she had to align herself, she wasn't on some crusade for her religion or nationalist agenda, she was there to draw attention to the fact that horrible stuff like that innocent family's house being torn down for no reason happens regularly in a conflict she felt some collective responsibility for. I don't wonder why that fact gets lost in the discussion, but I do lament it.
 
2012-08-28 08:55:57 AM  
when someone in the israeli army tells you to get out of the way of a moving bulldozer, do it. I bet her mommy never taught her to look both ways when crossing the street, either
 
2012-08-28 08:56:33 AM  

Tatsuma: ... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.


Tatsuma: Gunslinger013: You need to present some evidence of that or it looks like you're just name calling. She try to blow up a post office or something?

Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags


Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist. Or else try to write your narrative more coherently. Bias I can sort out, incompetent writing is inexcusable. You seem eloquent enough. I expect better.
 
2012-08-28 08:58:12 AM  

SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".


Bloody leopards.
 
2012-08-28 08:58:14 AM  

mrexcess: Rachel Corrie was a girl who died while protesting the demolition of a family's home. It's that simple, basic fact that all the politics obscures, sometimes quite deliberately.


Except that she did not die protecting some family's house. No house was demolished that day. No house was set to be demolished that day. You can clearly see that she was not protecting a house in all the pictures and videos

Again, just lies and insults rather than facts and polite discussions.
 
2012-08-28 08:59:39 AM  
There are two sides to this issue. Presenting Israel as the innocent victim only acting in self defense falls somewhere between ignorant disingenuous.

*'ignorant and disingenuous'
 
2012-08-28 09:01:15 AM  

Tatsuma: in all the pictures and videos


I tried to find the video on YouTube and all I could get was some horribly over-edited thing with two seconds of grainy black and white video. Do you have any links you could provide?
 
2012-08-28 09:01:47 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: That's not a Holocaust denial; it's a simple question, and as far as I can tell from skimming through that thread, you didn't even try to answer. Probably because you couldn't.

He didn't just ask a question, he said "there appears to be a disconnect".


There was a disconnect in the facts as they had been presented him. That make him ask a question. You, in return, flew off the handle. As always.

No grown adult is that farking clueless that they can't even google a simple answer.

Then why didn't you google the simple answer for him? For that matter, why didn't you already know the answer?

Someone who makes a statement like that isn't looking for answers, they are trying to muddy the water.

...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites" ...
 
2012-08-28 09:01:52 AM  

SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.


... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.
 
2012-08-28 09:03:44 AM  

Tatsuma: 2wolves: Wedding still on hold?

Dating is doing well, so who knows, thanks for asking


[Threadjack]
I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?
[/threadjack]
 
2012-08-28 09:04:39 AM  

Tatsuma: There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it


My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

That's still a pretty farked up thing for an American to do with a bunch of Palestinians though.
 
2012-08-28 09:07:15 AM  

liam76: ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.


It is their right, what's the problem?
 
2012-08-28 09:07:20 AM  

Tatsuma: See, the death of innocents is always a tragedy. However:

When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent.
When you go out in order to protest the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and try to physically prevent acts necessary for the demolition of tunnels used to smuggle weapons, you are not an innocent.
When you go out and put yourself in physical danger after being told repeatedly for hours to move out of the way while protecting said tunnels, you are not an innocent.

Rachel Corrie was not innocent. This is not Rachel Corrie in Gaza:
[www.kabobfest.com image 299x287]

This is Rachel Corrie in Gaza.
[www.thejc.com image 490x245]

There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it. She was someone who believed that Jews controlled America, someone who hated America, and someone who supported terrorists who oppress human rights of those around them (as clearly seen by the Hamas rule in Gaza) and are responsible for the death of hundreds of Israeli civilians.

She was actively engaged in helping terrorists smuggle weapons to kill Jews.

She supported a group who has an avowed goal of genocide against Jews, enshrined in its charter.

She was not an innocent.


The ISM are a group who openly declare that they support 'violent struggle' and consider terrorist acts by groups such as Hamas as legitimate. Their members have often been caught collaborating with Hamas, smuggling messages by using their status as international protesters to get them across, they have shielded terrorists in their offices to prevent arrests by the IDF, they have formed human shields around tunnels that are used to smuggle weapons to kill innocents, and in certain cases, they have even shielded and drove around terrorists who then blew themselves up, such as the case of Mike's Place suicide bombing. Oh, and that was not too long before they were laying wraiths with these two guys in G ...



Jesus Tits, who invited Netantyahu?
 
2012-08-28 09:07:28 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: What did those palestinians do that was illegal? Own land in the zionist living space?

Dig tunnels into Egypt to smuggle arms.


Sez who? The IDF? Not that it really matters, because:

You do realize that Israel pulled out of Gaza, right?

Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)

How exacly was that zionist living space? Even when they had settlements Rafah wasn't one of them.

Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case.
 
2012-08-28 09:10:51 AM  
Tatsuma
She was burning an American flag with stars of david

Burning even a fully American flag would not inherently make one a hater of America. An American burning an American flag with Stars of David is much more reasonably interpreted as strong repudiation of America's policies towards Israel.

declared America was ZOG

I think some citations and context would be relevant here.

and supported Hamas.

And here, as well.

ISM aren't peace activists, they support violent actions by Hamas.

And here.

CrispFlows
To be fair, he did provide proof.

Disagree. What he's done is provide, essentially, "opposition research". The picture it presents isn't accurate with respect to her beliefs and was never intended to be. Reading Rachel's actual writings makes this pretty clear... she wasn't someone who hated America, although she hated the way our government sometimes works, some of our policies, and some of the views of her countrymen (as we all mostly do). She wasn't some bloodthirsty supporter of terrorism - in fact she was an extremely gentle person who very much did NOT support people walking into malls or onto school buses and slaughtering innocents, or people tearing down the homes of innocent families.

liam76
ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

Armed struggle is a right of any oppressed minority. That isn't to say it's a good idea, or that violence generally is beneficial, or that the specific types of violence employed by Palestinian groups in the past have been morally justified, but it's just ridiculous to suggest that a violently oppressed people don't have the right to resist their oppressors with the same level of force being used to oppress them. I come from a country that only exists because of a violent revolution against an occupying foreign power, how could I deny that? Come to that, how could Israel supporters deny that? Israel is well known for funding armed opposition movements in nations like Iran, despite their employment of tactics not very different from those of Hamas.
 
2012-08-28 09:11:16 AM  

Tatsuma: ... wow.


I know! I imagine you're used to people ignoring inconsistencies like this. And you are biased, but I'm at peace with that. I won't put up with you saying something and then saying you just didn't say it though.

Particularly when it's in writing not far from the place you denied it's existence.
 
2012-08-28 09:12:32 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Then why didn't you google the simple answer for him? For that matter, why didn't you already know the answer?


Me not wanting to play games with a guy who is "just asking questions" doesn't mean I don't know the answer.


Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"


No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.
 
2012-08-28 09:12:37 AM  

SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".


I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)
 
2012-08-28 09:13:04 AM  
Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"
 
2012-08-28 09:13:44 AM  

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)


Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.
 
2012-08-28 09:14:24 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"

No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.


Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.
 
2012-08-28 09:17:46 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"


I suspect he will go edit the wikipedia so it conforms to its narrative
 
2012-08-28 09:20:03 AM  

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Then stop saying that's what makes her a terrorist.

... wow. And you accused me of being biased when you are farking around like that with my posts? Yeah I think I've been back here enough for now.


Does this mean you'll go away?

don't be a tease.
 
2012-08-28 09:26:21 AM  

mrexcess: liam76
ISM, which Corrie was a member of, supports "armed struggle" as a right of Palestenians.

Armed struggle is a right of any oppressed minority. That isn't to say it's a good idea, or that violence generally is beneficial, or that the specific types of violence employed by Palestinian groups in the past have been morally justified, but it's just ridiculous to suggest that a violently oppressed people don't have the right to resist their oppressors with the same level of force being used to oppress them. I come from a country that only exists because of a violent revolution against an occupying foreign power, how could I deny that? Come to that, how could Israel supporters deny that? Israel is well known for funding armed opposition movements in nations like Iran, despite their employment of tactics not very different from those of Hamas


You know what I don't actually have a problem with armed resistance if it is directed agaisnt military. In the case of Palestien that is very rare. The leader of ISM is on record saying that, "Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation". The armed struggle of the peopelt hey are supporting (Hammas) almost always takes the form of terroprism.

I am not familiar with suicide bombings in public areas in Iran funded by Israel. I am not famliar with armed gunmen shooting pregneant women in Iran funded by Israel.

Uncle Tractor: Sez who? The IDF? Not that it really matters, because:


The IDF and Egypt.

Uncle Tractor: Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)


Whenyou atre smuggling arms to lob at random civilians of another country it is the business of that other country.


Uncle Tractor: Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case


So when Israel pulls out, to you, that means they are just biding their time for when they will move in again.

Those Israeli's really are terrible at getting rid of Arabs, as you continually alledge is their goal.
 
2012-08-28 09:28:00 AM  
I just don't see how standing in the blind spot of an armored bulldozer could be a bad thing. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that I shouldn't play in traffic.
 
2012-08-28 09:29:53 AM  

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks: Gunslinger013: Let me ask you this. What would you do if a foreign military was bulldozing houses in your neighborhood every other day? Sew a farking prayer quilt? Send them a letter asking them to stop?

Well, you'd take the trouble to head to your local planning office, obviously. Where you'd have to go down to the cellar to find the plans. The lights will have probably gone, so bringing a torch is advisable, also, mind the stairs, they might be a bit punky. But surely you'll find the plans at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a room with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard".

I googled this but I still don't get the reference. I will give you +1 lolz though.

:)


Hitchikers guide tot he Galaxy.

You are missing out.

Uncle Tractor: liam76: Uncle Tractor: ...Says the guy who accuses all critics of Israel of being "anti-semites"

No, just critics of Israel who have double standards that they can't explain. Or people like yourself that claim all of present day Isreal was arab land in 1910, despite it being 10% jewish.

Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.


There was land that were exclusively jewish.
There was land that were exclusivley arab.
There was mixed land.
There was empty land.

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.
 
2012-08-28 09:38:29 AM  

Tatsuma: SkunkWerks: Both of which are protected forms of free speech and not terrorism of any kind. Not on their own.

... that's not what makes her a supporter of terrorism.

Being an ISM member and preventing the IDF from destroying tunnels used to smuggle weapons does.

First one only means she hates America and Jews (only anti-semites believe the ZOG drivel)


How many wheels are on your goalposts anyways?
 
2012-08-28 09:38:30 AM  

cman: cman: How can an American citizen sue a sovereign nation?


Fixt. Not asking for how I could sue, I was asking for how a sovereign nation could be forced to defend itself in a court of law by a lowly American citizen


That depends on their laws. A person can sue the United States government under certain circumstances (see the Torts Claims Act). Sometimes governments waive sovereign immunity. I guess Israel does so.

Or is your question more along the lines of "Who do this biatch's parents think they are, suing God's chosen people for ending the life of that terrorist-loving whore?"
 
2012-08-28 09:38:53 AM  
Tatsuma:

Tatsuma
When you take the step from 'Well America supports Israel' to 'America is a Zionist Occupied Government! Viva Hamas!', then you're moving from a valid position into racism and tinfoilhattery.

Is there room for a step in between those? Maybe something like 'Hey - It seems like we're always bending over backwards for Israel. What gives?' It's funny. I don't feel like a racist but I think it is ok to criticize Israel (or any other nation or entity) when they have it coming.

Tatsuma Well listen to her speak or look at her burning American flags

Point taken but I don't think that justifies her death.

Tatsuma The ISM is clearly not the only thing you know little about. You should definitely read more about the tunnels, since you seem to think its 'magical crap'

My point was that tunnels were not mentioned in the original article. I notice that you don't have much to say about the IDF practice of bulldozing homes.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:22 AM  

mrexcess: Tatsuma
She was burning an American flag with stars of david


In all fairness, the stars look like simple stars meant to be drawn fast with one stroke each, that's how kids in elementary and pre-school drew them.

That flag isn't exactly a facsimile of the real flag and looks to be done as fast as possible with the least amount of effort possible. *shrugs*
 
2012-08-28 09:40:42 AM  
SkunkWerks:
Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.

It's on my to read list.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:51 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: Then why were they demolishing homes in Gaza? For that matter, if Israel has pulled out of Gaza, what business of theirs is it if the people of Gaza decide to dig tunnels? (to smuggle arms etc)
Whenyou atre smuggling arms to lob at random civilians of another country it is the business of that other country.


Shait happens when you make your living space in somebody else's homeland.

Uncle Tractor: Oh, I assume they're saving it for when the WB is araberrein. There wouldn't have been any colonies there to begin with if that wasn't the case

So when Israel pulls out, to you, that means they are just biding their time for when they will move in again.


Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?

Those Israeli's really are terrible at getting rid of Arabs, as you continually alledge is their goal.

And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein.
 
2012-08-28 09:40:58 AM  

liam76: There was land that were exclusively jewish.
There was land that were exclusivley arab.
There was mixed land.
There was empty land.

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.



From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership. Ignorance/simplification are still perfectly valid explanations. It's still fair to say, for instance, that it was "mostly Arabic" land.

This really becomes a kinda important observation when you think about what happens with any majority-occupancy demographic whom you suddenly displace, and in particular when you do the displacement without what many might say constitutes "just cause".

I also don't find this "omission" particularly damning evidence of Anti-Semitism on his part. It just feels like nitpicking.
 
2012-08-28 09:44:35 AM  

Gunslinger013: SkunkWerks:
Not the first Hitchhikers' Guide Reference here. Likely it won't be the last. Honestly it's the only thing worth reading the thread for.

It's on my to read list.


There's even a bit where the protagonist (I use this term loosely) lies in front of a bulldozer to prevent someone from knocking his house down.

If Ford Prefect had been in the mix in this situation, this tragedy could have been avoided.

/sagenod
 
2012-08-28 09:47:09 AM  

liam76: Population and land are two different things. Not that there's any point in trying to explain anything to you.

There was land that were exclusively jewish.


No. There was land that was privately owned by jews. Not the same thing.

There was land that were exclusivley arab.

No. There was land that was privately owned by arabs. Not the same thing.

There was mixed land.

...where the majority of the population was arab.

There was empty land.

The terra nullius argument again. Old-school european colonialists love that one.

Say, parts of present-day Israel are currently empty. Does that mean that arabs can move in and declare a new state there?

But according to you all the land was Arab. Yep, you aren't an anti semite at all.

90% of the population was arab. That makes it arab land.

"Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.
 
2012-08-28 09:48:48 AM  

Uncle Tractor: "Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.


...this however might constitute a tacit denial of how language works.
 
2012-08-28 09:55:22 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


She was killed by a slab of concrete and a lot of dirt. She was not run over by the treads. It was her own actions that got her killed. She was not murdered. Palestinian apologists really need to get a grip.
 
2012-08-28 09:56:09 AM  

SkunkWerks: From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership.


Those numbers aren't about land ownership, but demographics. IIRC the locals didn't own much of the land at all back then, jew or arab. They payed their taxes to whomever currently ruled the land and payed rent to the landowners, who didn't even live in Palestine.

This really becomes a kinda important observation when you think about what happens with any majority-occupancy demographic whom you suddenly displace, and in particular when you do the displacement without what many might say constitutes "just cause".

Since you're on the fence: In your opinion, how does one create a jewish homeland in an area where 90% of the population is arab?

I also don't find this "omission" particularly damning evidence of Anti-Semitism on his part.

Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.

It just feels like nitpicking.

All Israel / Palestine devolve into nitpicking -- even to the point of red or white pixels on a certain map.
 
2012-08-28 09:56:49 AM  
liam76
You know what I don't actually have a problem with armed resistance if it is directed agaisnt military. In the case of Palestien that is very rare.

I think one of the things that has surprised me most in the recent years is how much more seriously Israel took the Gilad Shalit affair (an IDF soldier captured in uniform and held prisoner for several years by HAMAS -ed) than it seems to ever have taken against things like suicide bombings against civilian targets.

The leader of ISM is on record saying that, "Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation"

First of all, the guilt by association thing is wack. The leader of the International Solidary Movement having opinion Y does not confer that opinion automagically on everyone else who participates in the ISM, nor does it mean that the ISM's activities all must conform to that opinion.

Secondly, where's the context? It is incredibly difficult to evaluate even statements whose meaning seems clear absent context, and this statement could be taken in a number of ways. Spoken to an audience of Palestinian militants, such a message would actually seem to be advocacy of non-violence.

>I am not familiar with suicide bombings in public areas in Iran funded by Israel.

MEK (Mujahedin-e Khalq) - the People's Mujahedin of Iran - are a domestic Iranian terrorist group. According to anonymous "senior" US officials quoted in an NBC report from February, Israel is helping to fund and support the group in exchange for the assassination of Iranian civilian nuclear scientists.

Furthermore, a Foreign Policy piece from January reports that Israel is funding another Iranian domestic terrorist group - Jundallah - while pretending to be CIA field agents.
 
2012-08-28 09:59:00 AM  
KellyX: Even if the flag was a perfect reproduction, the act of burning it in protest, especially in a context like this one, wouldn't somehow inherently mean that one "hates America".
 
2012-08-28 10:03:15 AM  

SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: "Anti-semitic?" That term no longer has any meaning.

...this however might constitute a tacit denial of how language works.


Well now ...

If you look at the words and their meaning, "anti-semite" means that one is agains semites. As we all know, most semites aren't jews. Even so, the term was intended to mean someone who was against jews (by a person who himself was against jews).

Ever since 1947/48, the term has been used to silence criticism of Israel. So one could say that "anti-semite" means "anti-Israel."

However, in threads like this the term is thrown around so freely that it's just marklar. Marklar marklar marklar. You marklar.

Meaningless, see?
 
2012-08-28 10:03:54 AM  

Red Shirt Blues: Frederick: I rate her action on par with the Tiananmen square standoff

That's where I disagree. Those men and women were Chinese citizens in China. Rachel was just, well...a butinski.


If the death in this case was a Palestinian instead, nobody would care. It wouldn't make any press.
 
2012-08-28 10:11:39 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Shait happens when you make your living space in somebody else's homeland.


Shiat happend when you lob rockets at your stronger neighbor. Odd that you are only upset abotu the "shiat" that happens when jews do it.


Uncle Tractor: Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?


They kept the peace with Egypt. Why do you think they can't keep peace with neighbors who don't attack?


Uncle Tractor: And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein


Rapidly shriniking? If thatw ere true they wouldn;t have pulled out of Gaza.

Another reason I have you marked as anti-semite is your use of german to try and draw parallels bwteen Nazi germany and Israel despite Arabs place in Israel society taking the oposite course as that of German Jews under Nazism.


SkunkWerks: From someone who makes a point of sitting on a fence on the whole Israel/Palestine matter, I'm not sure that the land being only 90% Arabic constitutes a tacit denial of 10% Israeli ownership. Ignorance/simplification are still perfectly valid explanations. It's still fair to say, for instance, that it was "mostly Arabic" land.


He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.
 
2012-08-28 10:22:05 AM  

Uncle Tractor: ...how does one create a jewish homeland in an area where 90% of the population is arab?


You speak as if this were an imperative action. Is it fair to say the only people for whom this was a "need" were the primary beneficiaries, and even there it's only a matter of perception? In any case, to answer your question more directly...

Short Answer: One doesn't.

Longer Answer: It's not wise, and it's almost certain to result in bloodshed given the circumstances. Keep in mind that colonial powers had been jerking around mid-eastern peoples for something going on a century by this time. Common wisdom of the time yet to depart had it that this was just standard operating procedure.

But like Manifest Destiny, and other colonial mindsets, the base supposition is nearly always that the people you're jerking around are in some way less entitled to (or deserving of) the land than you- the prospectively homesteading people- are. The situation you have today is the inheritance of that, for the most part.

Perhaps if it had been a different era, the matter could have been handled in a less inequitable, more respectful way, but at some level, you'd have to at least respect that the people who were already there had been there for something going on five centuries, perhaps more, and that's a pretty solid investment of time.

"Homeland" is a pretty subjective term, you have to admit. I've lived in my home town for going on 30 years, does that make it any less a place I sentimentally identify as "my homeland" simply because ten generations of my family grew up here? How about a hundred generations? Do I qualify yet?

Not that I think Jews are any less deserving of a "homeland" than anyone else. In fact, it's exactly because I think this. Life is sometimes unfair like that. And if that sounds like a cop-out, well, wish-fulfillment just isn't part of how I roll. Particularly not where fulfilling one party's wish means this. At some point my practical nature wins out.

Uncle Tractor: Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.


Eh, while I agree that it's become a sort of "wolf" cry in it's abundance in this day and age, I have to disagree on one rather significant basis. Words that have no meaning don't see much use in a language. It has a meaning. It's diluted perhaps, very bastardized, and certainly not what you or I might like it to be, but it has a meaning.
 
2012-08-28 10:22:38 AM  
whatever you think of her politics, obviously she had terrible parents. Never should have paid for her to go protest in a war zone
 
2012-08-28 10:26:18 AM  
I think there are a lot of places where Palestinians make good points about their situation, but this has to be the most retarded piece of propaganda in the entire middle east conflict, and that is saying something.
 
2012-08-28 10:26:54 AM  

liam76: Shiat happend when you lob rockets at your stronger neighbor.


...And they did this for no reason whatsoever, right?

Odd that you are only upset abotu the "shiat" that happens when jews do it.

See, this is why you should replace the "l" in your nick with an "r."

Uncle Tractor: Do you really think Israel won't? Seriously?
They kept the peace with Egypt.


Was Egypt part of David's Israel?

Uncle Tractor: And as you have been told over and over; the land available to the arabs is rapidly shrinking. That's what the WB colonies are for, and it's why the colonies will reappear in Gaza when the WB is araberrein

Rapidly shriniking?


Yes, rapidly shrinking. You do know about the ever-expanding colonies on the WB, right?

If thatw ere true they wouldn;t have pulled out of Gaza.

Close one illegal colony and create two others. Pulling out of Gaza was nothing but tactics. Israel will be back.

Another reason I have you marked as anti-semite

Marklar.

is your use of german to try and draw parallels bwteen Nazi germany and Israel despite Arabs place in Israel society taking the oposite course as that of German Jews under Nazism.

When will the arabs on the WB be allowed into this israeli society?

BTW:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

Wow, those guys must have been some heartless anti-semites, huh.

He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.

How can it be jewish land when 90% of the population is arab?
 
2012-08-28 10:28:27 AM  

liam76: He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land.


I need to see this quote. But I'm still feeling this sounds like nitpicking.

liam76: We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.


For the most part, and at that time, it wasn't. I think that's really the more significant reality here, which is another reason I feel this is nitpicking.
 
2012-08-28 10:33:55 AM  

mrexcess: KellyX: Even if the flag was a perfect reproduction, the act of burning it in protest, especially in a context like this one, wouldn't somehow inherently mean that one "hates America".


I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes... If nothing I suspect it was done to be an attention whore and shine a light on the issue.
 
2012-08-28 10:40:48 AM  

Uncle Tractor: ...And they did this for no reason whatsoever, right?


Check out the UN HDI and how Gaza was treated before Israel took over. Look at the economic growth in Gaza prior to the second intifada. They did it not becasue of poor treatment, but because Israel is mostly Jewish. Other wise you would have seen similiar attacks against Israel when they were in charge and conditions were much worse.


Uncle Tractor: He didn't say it was 90% Arab Land, he said it was 100% Arab land. We are talking pre-Israel he was denying it being Jewish land.

How can it be jewish land when 90% of the population is arab?


The areas that were all Jewish were Jewish land.


Uncle Tractor: Was Egypt part of David's Israel?


Uncle Tractor: Pulling out of Gaza was nothing but tactics. Israel will be back


So it doesn't matter to you waht Israel ever does it will always be a plot to get back Jewish land and any deal they ever makeis just a ruse.

Palesteniains elect a party that has removing all the jews from the area and that is becasue "shiat happens" and nobody should be bothered. Israel has a far right party that doesn't get elected with similiar goals and Israel is just like the Nazi's. That about sum up your derp? Becasue to be honest I am getting sick of reading it.
 
2012-08-28 10:42:50 AM  
SkunkWerks:

(snip buncha stuff I completely agree with)

"Homeland" is a pretty subjective term, you have to admit. I've lived in my home town for going on 30 years, does that make it any less a place I sentimentally identify as "my homeland" simply because ten generations of my family grew up here? How about a hundred generations? Do I qualify yet?

Good question. I wasn't born in my "homeland."

Not that I think Jews are any less deserving of a "homeland" than anyone else. In fact, it's exactly because I think this. Life is sometimes unfair like that. And if that sounds like a cop-out, well, wish-fulfillment just isn't part of how I roll. Particularly not where fulfilling one party's wish means this. At some point my practical nature wins out.

Well ... IMO countries based on ethnicity have no place in the modern world. A person can have a "homeland," but not an ethnic group. Mind you, another century or two of intermarriage and all this silliness will be a thing of the past.

Uncle Tractor: Everything critical of Israel is antisemitism. The word no longer has any meaning. It's just marklar at this point.

Eh, while I agree that it's become a sort of "wolf" cry in it's abundance in this day and age, I have to disagree on one rather significant basis. Words that have no meaning don't see much use in a language. It has a meaning. It's diluted perhaps, very bastardized, and certainly not what you or I might like it to be, but it has a meaning.


Yes, but in this case it means "STFU or I'll accuse you of being a nazi again!" The original meaning of the term is long gone.
 
2012-08-28 10:50:43 AM  

SkunkWerks: I need to see this quote. But I'm still feeling this sounds like nitpicking.


I don't have it handy, he is still going on about it in this thread.

SkunkWerks: For the most part, and at that time, it wasn't. I think that's really the more significant reality here, which is another reason I feel this is nitpicking


There is a big difference between "for the most part" and what he claimed.

It may look like "nitpicking" but it comes down tot he foundation of why he thinks Israel is an illigitimate state. If I say people X can't buy land somewhere, or shouldn't be allowed to move somewhere, or have a voice in govt, most sane people would call that racism (if x was a race). But when it comes to jews moving to the ME it is perfectly acceptable.

He takes it a step futher and thinks that jews who have lived there forvever, on land they own are living on "arab land".
 
2012-08-28 10:52:03 AM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


That's how I felt about it from day 1. Blocking heavy machinery is one thing but if you're going to play that game make darn sure the operator can see you! She didn't do that.

crab66: Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

I would probably move out of the way. But luckily I live in a country of laws where some native american can't bulldoze my house because he had an ancestor living there 1500 years ago.

Statute of limitations, Israel. Learn what it means.


This had nothing to do with the past ownership of the land. Israel was clearing a zone to make it harder for smugglers.

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


Try again. Remember, a dozer has a big noisy engine. Furthermore, the protesters routinely lie--even if the operator heard people yelling that doesn't mean he would have paid any attention.

When he realized there was an issue he pulled back. It's moot, anyway--she wasn't killed by the dozer but by stuff it knocked down on her.

mrexcess: Tatsuma
No house was demolished that day.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

"On March 16, 2003, an IDF operation in the land between the Rafah refugee camp and the border with Egypt was engaged in demolition of Palestinian houses in Rafah.[22] Corrie was part of a group of seven ISM activists (three British and four US) attempting to disrupt the actions of Israeli bulldozers"


There's no reason to bother with Wikipedia on things like this. They favor consensus over truth, if enough people repeat a lie Wikipedia has no problem with presenting it as the truth.
 
2012-08-28 11:01:14 AM  
It's tragic that she was killed but she's the very definition of "useful idiot". The same goes for these boatloads of idiots that keep trying to take supplies for the terrorists through Israeli warship patrols.

Yes, I know they say the supplies are for the civilians but we all know who ends up with them.
 
2012-08-28 11:03:20 AM  

RoyBatty: [i.imgur.com image 441x232]


this
 
2012-08-28 11:06:22 AM  
Useful idiot was useful.
 
2012-08-28 11:08:04 AM  

jrw8778: For all the goofy farksticks out there she was standing on a dirt embankment in front of the bulldozer, the bulldozer moved forward, causing the embankment to collapse. She fell and her foot became stuck in the dirt. Over her screams and the protestations of the bystanders the bulldozer ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her.

You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


She wasn't MURDERED you idiot. It was an accident. The guy driving the bulldozer wasn't some highly trained Mossad officer with evil intentions, he was probably some 19 year old Combat Engineer draftee who had been told to go bulldoze something. He was in a hot, armored box, with crappy visibility (where there wasn't armored plate blocking his view, he probably had 3 inches of scratched up bullet proof glass), and an unmuffled engine that would keep him from hearing anything that was going on outside. And I'm sure he didn't care at all about the idiots outside, he was just trying to do his job well enough to keep his Sergeant off his ass, and maybe get a pass for the weekend so he could go home and bang little Susie Rottencrotch, or whatever the Israeli equivalent is.

This girl was on top of a berm that he was trying to bulldoze. He probably looked down at his controls for a second when he hit it, and wen he looked up, she was gone. He probably assumed she had some sort of brain in her head and had gotten down and out of the way of the multi-ton piece of equipment.

As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

And the 'dozer "ran her over, gravely wounding her. Then the operator put it in reverse and backed over her, killing her". Or, you could say "the bulldozer operator, not seeing her, and ignoring the screaming unwashed hippies who were trying to annoy him yet again, drove forward into the berm again, then backed up to hit it one more time, when he realized he'd accidentally run over someone, and probably feels like shait about it."

This was an industrial accident, just because the guy running the bulldozer was doing something you disapprove of, it doesn't make it murder. Accidents happen.
 
2012-08-28 11:10:56 AM  

crab66: Frederick: The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?
I would probably move out of the way. But luckily I live in a country of laws where some native american can't bulldoze my house because he had an ancestor living there 1500 years ago.
Statute of limitations, Israel. Learn what it means.


I compare this to people who take on the cops in the U.S. You might be perfectly morally right and the cops are law-breaking assholes, but guess who's going to be dead if you force a confrontation?

Or that old rhyme about driving too fast: You may be right as you speed along,
But you're just as dead as if you were wrong.

If you're prepared to put your life on the line for an ideal, just be aware that you can lose your life and still not change a thing. You'll be "right", though. So there's that.
 
2012-08-28 11:25:26 AM  

tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?


Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?
 
2012-08-28 11:26:10 AM  
liam76
They never captured a civilian. Other than building walls and keeping potential terrosits out there isn't much you can do to ditrectly prevent terrorist attacks. If they captured a civilian you can bet they would do as much or more to go after those responsible.

Hadn't thought about it that way, but it is sort of weird to perceive taking prisoners as more serious than murder, isn't it?

Guilt by association would be if they had tea together. She joined a group, where the leader of the group made statements as the leader. By your actions you are supporting what they say.

At various times in my life, I have been a member of various political parties. At no time in my entire life have I ever been in 100% agreement with any of their policy platforms, let alone all the statements made by people who are leaders of those parties.

You accused them of using similiar tactis as Hamas. Where are the suicide bombings directed at civilians? Where are the rockets lobbed at civilians? Where are the gunmne who shoot up preggo women?

Dude, seriously? You're defending MEK and Jundallah? MEK were Ba'athist allies responsible for attacks against Iranians and other groups including Kurds that go far, far beyond anything HAMAS has ever done to Israel. They have used chemical weapons in attacks against Iranian cities. And as for Jundallah, they're described by the US State Department as a foreign terrorist organization that "has engaged in numerous attacks resulting in the death and maiming of scores of Iranian civilians and government officials" which "uses a variety of terrorist tactics, including suicide bombings, ambushes, kidnappings and targeted assassinations."

KellyX
I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes..

You don't understand why America is regarded by so many as actively involved in supporting Israeli behavior like that?

Loren
There's no reason to bother with Wikipedia on things like this. They favor consensus over truth, if enough people repeat a lie Wikipedia has no problem with presenting it as the truth.

The cited Ha'aretz article is right there in the entry's footnotes.
 
2012-08-28 11:38:46 AM  

devildog123: As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.


Speaking as someone who has run heavy construction sites and mines, I doubt he even heard them.
 
2012-08-28 11:42:56 AM  

mrexcess: KellyX
I would say it means they hate the american policies, although not entirely sure what that would have to do with protesting Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes..

You don't understand why America is regarded by so many as actively involved in supporting Israeli behavior like that?


I do understand, I just think it's silly and more likely just to get attention to the subject.

Do I think it's wrong what they do? Yes.

Would America not offering any money or military aid stop it? No.

The only people that will resolve this issue in the end with be the Israeli's themselves by electing a new generation of politicians that are sick of the forever war with Palestinians and the policies their government has towards them.
 
2012-08-28 11:47:01 AM  

liam76: There is a big difference between "for the most part" and what he claimed.


Keep this in mind, I'll be returning to it in a moment...

liam76: It may look like "nitpicking" but it comes down tot he foundation of why he thinks Israel is an illigitimate state.


Well, since we seem to have sorta agreed that 90% of the people on the land at that time were of Arabic persuasion, and only 10% were Jewish (by civil landownership, whatever), and since I haven't heard you contest that the aforementioned 90% were forcibly removed from their land- land they had occupied for centuries- in order to establish the mentioned illegitimate state, I would think that those are rather serious reasons to call it's legitimacy into doubt...

...from a purely ethical perspective, mind you.

I'm well-aware of what sort of backing the creation of the state of Israel had, and what that means in terms of reality- moral or amoral as that might be. I'm aware of why a state that intends to remain a state needs a standing army and the resources to operate it, and I'm aware that Israel- even if by proxy- wielded enough force to at that time make itself a state, whether you agreed with the way it was founded or not.

Legitimacy. In terms of military might, I agree, totally legit: don't screw with someone wielding a bigger bat than you. But whether or not they were entitled to excise what was arguably a no less "native" population in order to make that state? Maybe not so much. This is of course, water under the bridge at this point, but to ignore it as a source of contention for Israel's "legitimacy" seems disingenuous, if not entirely unwise.

liam76: If I say people X can't buy land somewhere, or shouldn't be allowed to move somewhere, or have a voice in govt, most sane people would call that racism (if x was a race). But when it comes to jews moving to the ME it is perfectly acceptable.


Just as there's a big difference between being told you can't make a domestic purchase, and being forcibly removed from land you already own.
 
2012-08-28 11:47:31 AM  
Satanic_Hamster: devildog123: As for the protesters screaming and waving their arms to get him to stop? I'm willing to bet they'd been doing that ALL DAMN DAY. Why would he care any more about at that moment than he did for the other 8 hours they had been screaming at him, and odds on, he couldn't hear them anyway.

Speaking as someone who has run heavy construction sites and mines, I doubt he even heard them.


Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.

Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.
 
2012-08-28 11:49:42 AM  

bostonguy: tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?


Oleh. Been here since 94, though I was 20 at the time so many olim tend to think that I grew up here, or at the least have Israeli parents. It helps to speak fluent Hebrew without a strong Anglo accent. Not that it fools the Sabras.

I usually read all the Israel threads. Don't always comment, find it futile.

/Yeah, I'm up for an Israel Fark party. I'm a Yerushalmi, but in Tel Aviv a couple days a week. PM me, we'll work something out. (Can you PM here?)
//A couple of my RL friends hang out here occasionally too, they'll probably be up for it.
///We'll have to take pictures otherwise everyone will think its Tatsuma alone in a corner with a beer for each of his alts.
 
2012-08-28 11:53:09 AM  
Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

To be fair its not Tats the throwing Anti-semite around left and right. But pointing that out will probably make me anti-semite to some.
 
2012-08-28 11:58:40 AM  
KellyX
Would America not offering any money or military aid stop it? No.

Demolition of innocent peoples' homes in occupied territory is actually a really, really serious breach of international law. In a great many instances including this one, we are the only thing standing between Israel and the ire of the international community. I think it's fair to say that this position confers both some degree of responsibility, and some degree of leverage.

Now I'm not naive... taking too strong a stand against Israel could lead them closer to an alliance with one of our foes, calibration is always a part of the diplomacy game. I support a (healthier) US/Israel strategic partnership. But the fact is that in respect to Israeli behavior in the occupied territories, the US holds many more carrots and sticks than it has ever chosen to utilize.
 
2012-08-28 12:13:50 PM  

tjassen: bostonguy: tjassen: Witchyman: tjassen: Satanic_Hamster: I've worked around heavy equipment all my professional life. Their line of site can be very poor at times, much less an "armored" version like shown in the picture.

It's generally not a good idea to get in front of them period, much less at a distance under 50'.

For reference here is a picture I took during reserve training a couple of years ago of the type of armored bulldozer in question.

I'm in the IDF Combat Engineers Corps, and the bulldozer drivers are one of our units. We usually have a few when we do big maneuvers. Way back when in Basic or Advanced training we got to operate one. They are BIG Motherfarkers, and yes, sight lines suck.
[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]

Posting this to put things in context obviously will make you be viewed as a racist and a misogynist.

I'm an Israeli and IDF veteran, so no matter what I say I'm racist and misogynistic, according to the rules of FARK Israel ThreadsTM. Not to mention a religious fanatic theocrat warmonger who controls the American government. And a Republican.

But then again, when has reality, facts or rational discourse ever got in the way of an Israel thread on Fark?

Sabra of oleh? I moved from America to Israel in 2008 and am usually in Israel threads too.

/ Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?

Oleh. Been here since 94, though I was 20 at the time so many olim tend to think that I grew up here, or at the least have Israeli parents. It helps to speak fluent Hebrew without a strong Anglo accent. Not that it fools the Sabras.

I usually read all the Israel threads. Don't always comment, find it futile.

/Yeah, I'm up for an Israel Fark party. I'm a Yerushalmi, but in Tel Aviv a couple days a week. PM me, we'll work something out. (Can you PM here?)
//A couple of my RL friends hang out here occasionally too, they'll probably be up for it.
///We'll have to take pictures othe ...


Lived in Jerusalem too (first Baka and then Nachlaot and then Rehavia). Moved to TLV two weeks ago for work, though I don't know too many people here.

Tats and I had e-mailed about having a Fark Party at Mike's Place in Jerusalem, but we never got around to having it. Perhaps we can all plan one there in a month or so?

I don't put my e-mail address here, and I don't see any contact information listed in your profile. But my profile lists my three personal sites, and if you go to the About page on any of them, you'll see a way to contact me. Keep in touch! I can e-mail both you and Tats...
 
2012-08-28 12:14:11 PM  

BronyMedic: Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.


I know, right? In this thread we have Tatsuma, who is either the Jewiest Jew to every Jew Jewism on the Internet or a troll, who has me on ignore for criticizing Israeli asshole behavior in other threads, and then we have anti-Israeli trolls who claim that anyone who isn't calling Israel a bunch of murdering jerks is a shrill.

Both sides are bad, so eat humus.
 
2012-08-28 12:18:52 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: BronyMedic: Silly you, using such things as facts and experience to disagree with someone. This is FARK. The fact that you're trained and experienced in something only means you shill for that group! You don't know the REAL truth, like someone who's never spent a day doing what's been talked about.

I know, right? In this thread we have Tatsuma, who is either the Jewiest Jew to every Jew Jewism on the Internet or a troll, who has me on ignore for criticizing Israeli asshole behavior in other threads, and then we have anti-Israeli trolls who claim that anyone who isn't calling Israel a bunch of murdering jerks is a shrill.

Both sides are bad, so eat humus.


Hummus is awesome. I have to say.
 
2012-08-28 12:27:53 PM  

SkunkWerks: Hummus is awesome. I have to say.


Yeah, now I'm thinking of lamb and hummus for dinner. Maybe some kibbe too. Or falafel.

Of course, bbq is still an option.
 
2012-08-28 12:31:32 PM  

RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.


How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.
 
2012-08-28 12:36:27 PM  

Flab: I always figured your stint in Montreal a few years ago was to take care of that.

Was I wrong?


It partly was, yes. Both to finish my degree and this. Finished my degree, however did not find a suitable match who wanted to live in Israel

Happy Hours: My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.


I am fairly sure that those were stars of david, because she also made comments about america being ZOG and she was protesting the invasion of Iraq at the behest of Israel by the ZOG American government

bostonguy: / Still waiting for all the Israelis I know here to help with getting a Fark Party going! Tel Aviv, yes?


Jerusalem, with Yeshiva I can't very well traipse off to tel aviv whenever I want
 
2012-08-28 12:38:09 PM  

Happy Hours: Tatsuma: There she was, burning an American flag with stars of david on it

My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

That's still a pretty farked up thing for an American to do with a bunch of Palestinians though.


Perhaps. Not remotely as farked up as the actions she was protesting against, though. In fact, the void of that range of acceptability between the two is so broad as to make Tatsuma's mentioning of it utterly laughable.

Tatsuma:
When you go out and associate yourself with a group like the ISM, you are not an innocent. Derpity derpity derp.


Ah yes, guilt my association. Congrats, Tatsuma, you just used the very logic that Islamist terrorists use to justify killing Israeli civilians. Way to be part of the problem, you unbelievably ridiculous asshole.
 
2012-08-28 12:39:12 PM  

BronyMedic: Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.


Please show me where I did that in this thread tyia

tjassen: ///We'll have to take pictures otherwise everyone will think its Tatsuma alone in a corner with a beer for each of his alts.


hey, if I have a beer for every alt, i will be sober

worst fark party ever

bostonguy: Tats and I had e-mailed about having a Fark Party at Mike's Place in Jerusalem, but we never got around to having it. Perhaps we can all plan one there in a month or so?


that'd be awesome

but yeah jerusalem
 
2012-08-28 12:44:12 PM  

Tatsuma: Happy Hours: My eyesight isn't that great, but those just look like regular stars to me.

I am fairly sure that those were stars of david, because she also made comments about america being ZOG and she was protesting the invasion of Iraq at the behest of Israel by the ZOG American government


You're fairly sure because of a bunch of stuff OTHER than what you can see with your own eyes? Par for the course, Tatsuma, par for the course. You have gone so far off the deep end that you are now willing to ignore what you see in favor of what you believe. Look at that photo. That doesn't even look like an American flag, but I'll pretend she's just a sh*tty craftsman. But no, those stars have 5 points, clearly. They are not Stars of David. There is no "pretty sure"...they aren't. Look at them. Use your goddamned eyes. I mean holy sh*t, really? REALLY?
 
2012-08-28 12:45:49 PM  

Ebbelwoi: Likewise, it should have been abundantly clear to the leaders of the protest action that to not stand down THEIR operation would lead to this outcome.


According to the wikipedia, ISM leaders knowing, willfully, put their protester's lives at risk.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 12:47:13 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.


You're right, we would feel sympathy with the little girl, whereas Corrie was just acting stupidly after having been trained stupidly by a bunch of assholes longing for her death in order to make an international scene.
 
2012-08-28 12:47:21 PM  
Tatsuma: So now that I've provided evidence that what you've said was untrue, you're what, just going to start ignoring our discussion?
 
2012-08-28 12:48:16 PM  

Tatsuma: BronyMedic: Tatsuma, I'm not anti-Israel by any means, but they are by no means perfect either. Criticizing the Government of Israel for acting like the Honey Badger, and Not giving a fark, does not make one an anti-semite. When you accuse people who have demonstrated no behavior or statements antisemetic of being that because they criticize the course of your Government, you Are NOT Helping.

Please show me where I did that in this thread tyia


Tatsuma, you've done it in the past, if not here. One tactic I've seen you employ is to use the logic that anti-semites like to knock on Israel, thus anyone knocking Israel should question the company they share such opinions with, lest they be labeled an anti-Semite.
 
2012-08-28 12:54:34 PM  

RoyBatty: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: RoyBatty:
But if this was in the US and it was a FARK headline of "Family of girl playing in construction site when heavily armored hard to see out of bulldozer strikes her loses lawsuit" most of us would be calling the girl a dumbass and telling the family something similar.

How is a grown woman standing in front of a person's HOME, wearing a bright orange vest and reflective tape, with a megaphone, in any way comparable to a child playing in a construction site?

You're rationalizing murder with a total bullsh*t analogy.

You're right, we would feel sympathy with the little girl, whereas Corrie was just acting stupidly after having been trained stupidly by a bunch of assholes longing for her death in order to make an international scene.


You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.

Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.
 
2012-08-28 01:05:15 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.


If you send the National Guard onto a University Campus and they shoot at unarmed students, you may be an asshat.

If you send your protesters, with 2 days training, into a military operation, knowing and anticipating their deaths, you may be an asshat.
 
2012-08-28 01:08:13 PM  

RoyBatty: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: You're moving the goalposts. Who gives a f*ck about some out-of-context quotes by some organizational spokespeople? Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.Meanwhile, the Kent State Massacre was entirely the fault of the hippie organizers, right? Jackass.

If you send the National Guard onto a University Campus and they shoot at unarmed students, you may be an asshat.

If you send your protesters, with 2 days training, into a military operation, knowing and anticipating their deaths, you may be an asshat.


So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?
 
2012-08-28 01:11:45 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Bottom line: she was trying to prevent a human being's house from being unjustly leveled, in such a way that made it impossible NOT to see her, and she was murdered. But you want to hold everyone but the perps accountable. Nice.


I don't know what she was trying to prevent, but it's clear the IDF felt they had legal grounds to believe the house held tunnels, and there is clear testimony even from ISM that the IDF usually stopped before hitting protesters when they knew they were there, and that visibility out of those bulldozers is terrible.

Adults with rationality and agency don't stand in front of bulldozers. They especially don't stand in front of military bulldozers on a day when the soldiers are being shot at or having hand grenades thrown at them.

So you want me to believe either:

A) Rachel Corrie was not an adult with rationality or agency and so not responsible for her actions, or
B) Rachel Corrie was an adult with rationality or agency and so responsible for her actions

Either way you don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want her on that berm, you need her on that berm, or underneath the bulldozer.

You and ISM will order that code red to try and make a martyr for your own needs.
 
2012-08-28 01:14:05 PM  

BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.


More like 'it's slightly suspicious given the rest of Israel's actions', but yeah, if she was actually kneeling and not in full view, nonstory.

Now, if those tapes happened to show that she wasn't...
 
2012-08-28 01:16:21 PM  
Corrie was a fool, this was an accident - but it's the same sort of accident as mistakenly shooting a teller while robbing a bank - the crime here was Israel bulldozing houses and stealing land. Period.
 
2012-08-28 01:17:29 PM  

SkunkWerks: So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?


Who?

ISM?

I would think the way people protest around the world, with placards off to the side and papier mache puppets taking video and documenting it, then posting it on the net, or if they really think they can stop a military operation from a government that they detest and decry as having all of these inhumane war crime operations, than with enough people and supervisors, etc., to keep their protesters safe. (Link arms around the building, don't stand on the berm in front of the bulldozer.)

The wikipedia (which is warring about today) still says ISM did this knowingly, and sent her in after two days of training.

Tatsuma's picture seems to show that Corrie really wasn't some neutral observer in this.

Shortly before the Iraq War began, several American citizens went to Iraq to put their bodies in front of, I forget what it was, but I think it was actually refineries or some such, and oddly, and my memory is probably totally wrong on this, Hussein sent them back. But had they died as they claimed they were willing to, and their families sued the US for negligence, a lot of us, even those of us (like me) against the Iraq War would be "WTF?"
 
2012-08-28 01:20:41 PM  

And these are the hypocritical, racist assholes that continually insist that the US

FREE JONATHAN POLLARD!!!


and that we

BOMB IRAN!!!


so that they can carry on in their hypocritical racist schemes unmolested by the filthy "nations". 


/God I love Zionists
 
2012-08-28 01:20:46 PM  

jaybeezey: Frederick: BronyMedic: Wait, wait.

She knelt infront of a Caterpiller D10 Armored Bulldozer blade? A piece of equipment that is as tall as a tractor-trailer, and blocks the vision of the operator?

What did she expect to happen? He would magically use his X-ray Vision to see her, and stop?

Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate. Had this happened in the US, you people would be mocking her relentlessly. But, since this is Israel, no examination of the matter is to be had. Clearly, they had just finished plotting their takeover for the rest of the world, and needed a blood sacrifice to appease Moses.

The bulldozer and Corrie were on private property. What would you do if a bulldozer prepared to demolish your house?

Dont be cavalier or attempt to misinform by creating your own context.

You do something deemed illegal in your country and tell me just how long that property remains private. Also, was the land truly privately owned? If you don't know, you should check out there property laws.

The reason this girl is dead is because she wasn't smarter/tougher than the bulldozer.

The reason she was in front of the bulldozer is inconsiquential.


your are an idiot and your parents should feel ashamed.
 
2012-08-28 01:41:19 PM  

RoyBatty: SkunkWerks: So, out of curiosity, how should they have prepared them to protest in that environ?

Who?

ISM?

I would think the way people protest around the world, with placards off to the side and papier mache puppets taking video and documenting it, then posting it on the net, or if they really think they can stop a military operation from a government that they detest and decry as having all of these inhumane war crime operations, than with enough people and supervisors, etc., to keep their protesters safe. (Link arms around the building, don't stand on the berm in front of the bulldozer.)

The wikipedia (which is warring about today) still says ISM did this knowingly, and sent her in after two days of training.

Tatsuma's picture seems to show that Corrie really wasn't some neutral observer in this.

Shortly before the Iraq War began, several American citizens went to Iraq to put their bodies in front of, I forget what it was, but I think it was actually refineries or some such, and oddly, and my memory is probably totally wrong on this, Hussein sent them back. But had they died as they claimed they were willing to, and their families sued the US for negligence, a lot of us, even those of us (like me) against the Iraq War would be "WTF?"


A fair answer I suppose. But generally speaking I think that critiquing the whole "but, they were going into a WAR ZONE" scenario again seems kinda demonstrably obvious. Any protest scenario is potentially dangerous. Whether it's getting maced or run over by a bulldozer- as in this case.

The notion that this needs to be belabored seems kinda strange to me, as I'm fairly sure the protesters were well aware of how much danger they were in. In fact, it may have been a fair part of the point.

But you make some good points about what actions they might have taken. Still, elsewhere in the article, her accomplices/comrades mention that they'd been quite used to blocking bulldozers, and they had always stopped them before. That it didn't work in this case was of course a shock, but the real point of bringing this up is that it more than a little refutes that they were prepared for this, at least to some extent. Other accounts of Corrie suggest she had used arm-linking under other protest circumstances in the past.

Again, I don't really doubt Corrie had more than an inkling of the risks she was taking. Indeed I think that part may have been more than a little deliberate. And of course how justified she felt about the risk in no way changes how her parents feel on the matter.
 
2012-08-28 01:42:32 PM  
i269.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-28 01:47:45 PM  

SkunkWerks: But generally speaking I think that critiquing the whole "but, they were going into a WAR ZONE" scenario again seems kinda demonstrably obvious. Any protest scenario is potentially dangerous.


So generally, I've been told that the police are trained to handle civilians, and the military is not, so it's one thing to protest against a line of cops (even though we've seen at Occupy and WTO protests the cops don't always do a great job of it) but protesting against the military who has very little training on how to handle civilians is even riskier.

It seems like a terrible accident, but ISM should not have placed her there, and if they did so on purpose, they should man up and take responsibility for it.
 
2012-08-28 01:49:49 PM  

SkunkWerks: And of course how justified she felt about the risk in no way changes how her parents feel on the matter.


If this happened to one of my kids, you're damn right I'd be suing.
 
2012-08-28 01:55:15 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 01:57:03 PM  
0.tqn.com

"You move out da way"
 
2012-08-28 02:05:45 PM  
This is from a Mother Jones article, sympathetic to Rachel Corrie. It describes how ISM is not a neutral particpant, how they support armed struggle and violence, how poorly they train their people (don't drink alcohol, wear hijab, no sex, no drugs, and yes, don't scare the army), and how they intentionally put their people at risk. That's sympathetic coverage.

i.imgur.com

Link
 
2012-08-28 02:09:34 PM  

Happy Hours: either Israel is evil and they killed her on purpose or Israel would never do that and it was just a horrible accident. 


I see it as Pancakes and the guy in the bulldozer were basically playing "Chicken". Pancakes won.

/Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
//Darwin in Action.
 
2012-08-28 02:18:05 PM  
At this point i hope the whole area just gets biblically decimated.

Nothing good comes out of any of their bullshiat.

One side is either blaming us or asking us to do their dirty work.

One side is either actively trying to blow us up or steal our secrets

one side is either calling us the great satan or their pocketbook

If it wan't for all the dumbass religious crap in their f-ing countries no one would give a shiat.
 
2012-08-28 02:22:02 PM  
I'm also not entirely sure what the fuss is about the ISM "advocating armed struggle".

As a way of pointing out that the ISM says one thing and does something else, I get that, and it's worthwhile mentioning it. But then again I'm not predicating my view of matters on how "innocent" I believe the parties involved are. If I were, the IDF wouldn't fare terribly well by those House Rules either.

As a way of suggesting that the IDF isn't itself a participant in "armed struggle" (if in fact it isn't the better armed participant- armored bulldozers are all fun and games till you get run over by one) and this all doesn't seem a natural result of escalation to you, well, they aren't exactly hosting a bridge party over there, if no one's noticed.
 
2012-08-28 02:22:29 PM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: ...And they did this for no reason whatsoever, right?

Check out the UN HDI and how Gaza was treated before Israel took over. Look at the economic growth in Gaza prior to the second intifada. They did it not becasue of poor treatment, but because Israel is mostly Jewish.


No, it was because Israel was founded as a european colony and still carries the colonial mindset with it. So do you, for that matter (hence your constant justifications by way of terra nullius). This is fallout from the way Israel was created.

The areas that were all Jewish were Jewish land.

Private ownership does not make land "jewish" or "arab" or anything else.

Uncle Tractor: Was Egypt part of David's Israel?

Uncle Tractor: Pulling out of Gaza was nothing but tactics. Israel will be back

So it doesn't matter to you waht Israel ever does it will always be a plot to get back Jewish land and any deal they ever makeis just a ruse.


There is one thing Israel can do: Officially state that Gaza and the WB are part of Israel and grant the people who live there (arab and otherwise) full rights as israeli citizens.

Palesteniains elect a party that has removing all the jews from the area and that is becasue "shiat happens" and nobody should be bothered.

The palestinians see the ashkenazim as intruders in the region. While this is no longer true, the perception will remain until the one-state solution is reality.

Israel has a far right party that doesn't get elected with similiar goals and Israel is just like the Nazi's.

The people running Israel now are ridiculously far-right compared with the rest of the world.

That about sum up your derp? Becasue to be honest I am getting sick of reading it.

You think I care whether you're sick of it or not?
 
2012-08-28 02:23:03 PM  

jrw8778: You cannot justify this conduct. Do not try. She was trying to make a stand for what she believed in, agree or disagree she should have been arrested and detained. Not murdered. End of story, Israeli apologists need to get a grip.


She put herself in the path of a slow-moving bulldozer, and then her family and her handlers oh, "friends" act all surprised and shocked when she dies. I'm just glad that it happened before she'd whelped.

BTW: Here's a picture of what a "Shiny, Happy Person" she was:


i135.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-28 02:28:08 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: BTW: Here's a picture of what a "Shiny, Happy Person" she was:


As a result, I fear for my college ruled papers. Thanks a lot.
 
2012-08-28 02:34:41 PM  

SkunkWerks: Secret Master of All Flatulence: BTW: Here's a picture of what a "Shiny, Happy Person" she was:

As a result, I fear for my college ruled papers. Thanks a lot.


Sorry, I thought you knew the backstory. It was supposed to be a representation of the American Flag. It's just that, in addition to being unable to outmaneuver large, slow vehicles, she was also apparently a really shiatty artist.

The more I think about all the potential for future genetic fail she prevented when she removed herself from the gene pool without whelping, the more I like her.
 
2012-08-28 02:39:20 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: It was supposed to be a representation of the American Flag.


Pretty sure burning it is still legal over here- the flag, not college rule. Considered part of Freedom of Speech or some such I'm told. Not really sure that makes her a "monster" of some sort.

I'll give you that she's a bad artist apparently though.
 
2012-08-28 02:41:20 PM  

SkunkWerks: I'm also not entirely sure what the fuss is about the ISM "advocating armed struggle".


Armed struggle might be a declared war, but I think it's usually more like suicide bombings and rocket attacks into civilians.

As a result, I fear for my college ruled papers. Thanks a lot.

It seems to be a reasonable fear, because apparently she was getting college credit for this independent study program....
 
2012-08-28 02:42:19 PM  
This stupid case wasted a LOT of valuable time for the poor Israeli courts.

They knew damn well that they were going to tell the plaintiffs tu STFU and GTFO from the beginning - why the show trial?

Fortunately this type of thing is less likely to happen in the future, as the Israelis have take steps to ensure that Untermenschen will no longer be clogging up their courts.


New regulation may bar migrants, Palestinians from filing lawsuits in Israeli courts
Regulations require that anyone filing a suit in an Israeli court provide an Israeli ID number or foreign passport number.

By Tomer Zarchin 01:04 06.08.12

Justice Minister Yaakov Neeman has signed on regulations that require plaintiffs to cite their Israeli ID numbers or foreign passport numbers on the documents they file. Although the ministry said the cases of individuals such as migrant workers, Palestinian residents of the territories and stateless individuals who have no passport will be referred to a registrar or judge, civil rights activists say the new...


[END QUOTE]


Want to read more? Subscribe, you filthy dog.


/But we're not racist
//Or anything like that
///Only democracy in the Middle East 

////We are
 
2012-08-28 02:45:31 PM  

SkunkWerks: Secret Master of All Flatulence: It was supposed to be a representation of the American Flag.

Pretty sure burning it is still legal over here- the flag, not college rule. Considered part of Freedom of Speech or some such I'm told. Not really sure that makes her a "monster" of some sort.


Oh, I don't think she's a monster. I just think she was really, really, really stupid, and the personal cost of her stupidity to her was her life. It's kind of like people who illegally buy a large-dose Fentanyl patch that's supposed to provide pain mitigation to a terminal cancer patient for three days, and then chew it, to release all of the drug at once, and whose parents get all shocked and offended when the dumbass dies.

Once again: "Play Stupid games, win Stupid prizes."
 
2012-08-28 02:48:13 PM  

RoyBatty: Armed struggle might be a declared war, but I think it's usually more like suicide bombings and rocket attacks into civilians.


Or demolishing people's houses, or blowing up people's houses. I know we've had a problem over the last three decades of admitting when there's a war occurring, but mostly that's an issue with the bureaucracy, and for the usual bureaucratic reasons. I credit citizens with more intelligence, or at the very least with less institutionalized pedantry.

That said, when the IDF starts sending bouquets of flowers with apology cards, I'll start being shocked with this sort of reaction to their efforts.

RoyBatty: It seems to be a reasonable fear, because apparently she was getting college credit for this independent study program....


Don't think I heard that bit of the story. Then again George W. got credited with being an Army Veteran when he spent the most of that "career" polishing his public speaking... which was also time well spent, I observe.
 
2012-08-28 02:51:25 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: I just think she was really, really, really stupid


I think a lot of people are stupid. Throw them under the bulldozer then?
 
2012-08-28 02:53:56 PM  

SkunkWerks: Or demolishing people's houses, or blowing up people's houses.


Fwiw, the people aren't in the houses when the IDF comes along to bulldoze them, but the people are in the buses and cafes.

Don't think I heard that bit of the story.

That was in the Mother Jones article up above.
 
2012-08-28 02:58:23 PM  
She was a good dhimmi
 
2012-08-28 02:59:33 PM  

RoyBatty: Fwiw


Very little, honestly.

RoyBatty: That was in the Mother Jones article up above.


You have to admit, for a sympathetic article, they did a pretty good job of playing fair about the university's Character.

What do Matt Groening and the Black Panthers have in common? Wouldn't have guessed.
 
2012-08-28 03:10:14 PM  

SkunkWerks: RoyBatty: FwiwVery little, honestly


Well, you and I will have to differ on that.

You have to admit, for a sympathetic article, they did a pretty good job of playing fair about the university's Character.

In that article why is every instance of ISM (except for one) capitalized? Bad search and replace?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-08-28 03:28:05 PM  

RoyBatty: In that article why is every instance of ISM (except for one) capitalized? Bad search and replace?


Probably the same reason words on the same line are hyphenated with frequency, I imagine. Still, it's a pretty well-balanced article, I'd have to say, having read most of it.

One thing it goes into, which I don't see mentioned here was that she apparently faced a lot of distrust and even violence from her own "side" of the line. Looks like she accepted that. And while I might not necessarily agree with her ideology or methods, she seems far from the "spoiled stupid rich kid" I keep seeing bandied about in here.
 
2012-08-28 04:04:43 PM  
sucks that she thought protecting the house of a terrorist was more important than living
 
2012-08-28 04:20:54 PM  

SkunkWerks: Secret Master of All Flatulence: I just think she was really, really, really stupid

I think a lot of people are stupid. Throw them under the bulldozer then?


Nope. But if a stupid person decides to travel halfway around the planet to stand in front of a slow-moving, really obvious bulldozer, don't cry or make a martyr out of them when said bulldozer pancakes the biatch. I mean, it's not as if the bulldozer was camoflaged to look like a giant floating blob of cotton candy...
 
2012-08-28 04:21:16 PM  

depmode98: sucks that she thought protecting the house of a terrorist was more important than living


It wasn't even a house. The IDF was clearing scrubland snipers were using as positions from which to shoot at Israelis.

Darwin Ahkbar, Saint Pancake.
 
2012-08-28 04:22:17 PM  

depmode98: sucksIt's great that she thought protecting the house of a terrorist was more important than living


FTFY.
 
2012-08-28 04:26:10 PM  

depmode98: sucks that she thought protecting the house of a terrorist was more important than living



Are you saying the house was owned by an Israeli Zionist?

www.thepeoplesvoice.org

King David Hotel Bombing - Single deadliest act of terrorism ever committed in Israel / Palestine.

Details

Date: July 22, 1946
Number Killed: 91
Number Injured: 46
Terrorist Organization: Irgun (Zionist)
Mastermind: Menachem Begin (with Yitzhak Shamir)


Culprits apprehended? Yes
Culprits tried? No (celebrated)

Sentences imposed:

Begin: Elected Prime Minister of Israel
Shamir: Elected Prime Minister of Israel (twice)


Yep, ol Israel sure hates those terrorists
 
2012-08-28 04:52:03 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-28 05:03:00 PM  
Just heard on the radio:

Independent expert testifying for the Corrie Family declared that it would have been impossible for the bulldozer driver to see Rachel Corrie due to where she was standing

Just popped in to say that
 
2012-08-28 05:03:14 PM  
Step away for a day and look at all the bullshiat being slung around. "Industrial accident"? Pshaw. That's when Larry accidentally cuts his thumb off making a bird house or a planter. When there's an operator with a bulldozer trying to destroy someone's home and someone get's killed because the operator's in too much of a rush to destroy shiat that he can't take the time to make sure the person standing in front of him isn't going to end up underneath his several ton piece of machinery, that's at least criminally negligent homicide.

For the rest of the idiots that decried her politics, great. I'm not 100% on the Palestinian bandwagon either (or even 50% for that matter), but when Tats expresses his opinions we don't run him over. She took a stand, if Israel wanted her out of the way they could have forcibly removed her...instead they farking killed her.

It's still indefensible.
 
2012-08-28 05:06:17 PM  
If someone didn't get run over once in awhile, the gesture would be meaningless, since there would be no risk of life and limb.

The whole purpose of standing in front of a bulldozer is that you're daring them to run over you. Sooner or later someone will take you up on that dare.

Whether or not they should have been bulldozing that house, is the world supposed to agree that sitting in front of a bulldozer is some sort of joker card that trumps everything?
 
2012-08-28 05:26:04 PM  
Let me recap the thread:

Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews.
 
2012-08-28 05:39:48 PM  
encrypted-tbn3.google.comencrypted-tbn1.google.com
 
2012-08-28 05:41:28 PM  

fatalvenom: Let me recap the thread:

Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews Jews.



Which Jews?
 
2012-08-28 06:11:14 PM  

Uncle Tractor: So it doesn't matter to you waht Israel ever does it will always be a plot to get back Jewish land and any deal they ever makeis just a ruse.

There is one thing Israel can do: Officially state that Gaza and the WB are part of Israel and grant the people who live there (arab and otherwise) full rights as israeli citizens.


There are many things they could do. They could equally declare the land Israel and the people there invading combatants.
 
2012-08-28 06:17:27 PM  

This text is now purple: Uncle Tractor: So it doesn't matter to you waht Israel ever does it will always be a plot to get back Jewish land and any deal they ever makeis just a ruse.

There is one thing Israel can do: Officially state that Gaza and the WB are part of Israel and grant the people who live there (arab and otherwise) full rights as israeli citizens.

There are many things they could do. They could equally declare the land Israel and the people there invading combatants.



Ever notice the similarities between Gnawzi Yermany and Xionist Xrael?

The ideology, the xenophobic racism, the vicious expansionism?

Weird, huh?
 
2012-08-28 06:17:48 PM  

This text is now purple: There are many things they could do. They could equally declare the land Israel and the people there invading combatants.


Invading combatants that have lived there for generations ...

No, the one-state solution is the only civilized outcome left.
 
2012-08-28 07:41:42 PM  
Hey biatch, next time get out of the way.
 
2012-08-28 07:53:29 PM  
I see that Tats the resident judeo-nazi chickenhawk is still around.
 
2012-08-28 08:08:44 PM  

clevershark: I see that Tats the resident judeo-nazi chickenhawk is still around.

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com 

Very wise advice clevershark, you should take it.
 
2012-08-28 08:21:22 PM  

RoyBatty:
Very wise advice clevershark, you should take it.


I suppose it's telling that you've decided not to. Don't worry, you're right besides your boyfriend tats on my ignore list.
 
2012-08-28 08:22:32 PM  

clevershark: RoyBatty:
Very wise advice clevershark, you should take it.

I suppose it's telling that you've decided not to. Don't worry, you're right besides your boyfriend tats on my ignore list.


And you're into making homophobic jokes as well. You're a true Christian!

Woohoo!
 
2012-08-28 08:41:29 PM  
SkunkWerks>> Secret Master of All Flatulence: It was supposed to be a representation of the American
>> Flag.
>
>Pretty sure burning it is still legal over here- the flag, not college rule. Considered part of Freedom of
>Speech or some such I'm told. Not really sure that makes her a "monster" of some sort.

Hey buddy that's pretty insensitive! His daddy died in Vietnam for that flag.

Funny coincidence, mine says Made in Vietnam!

/RIP Bill
//Nobody died for a flag, ever
 
2012-08-28 10:57:16 PM  
Funny thing I saw while looking up this event.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/photostory-israeli-bulldozer-dr i ver-murders-american-peace-activist/4449

A website called "electronicintifada" which I assume is not predisposed to being fair and balanced ran the following picture:

img100.imageshack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This was the caption: Picture taken at 4:45PM on 16 March 2003, Rafah, Occupied Gaza. Other peace activists tend to Rachel after she was fatally injured by the driver of the Israeli bulldozer (in background). This photo was taken seconds after the bulldozer driver dragged his blade over her for the second time while reversingback over her body. He lifted the blade as seen in the photo only after he had dragged it back over Rachel's body. This image clearly shows that had he lifted his blade at any time he may have avoided killing her, as the bottom section of the bulldozer is raised off the ground. Photo by Richard Purssell.

Lets assume that caption is mostly true.

The picture itself is a bit interesting. Lets take another look at it.

img825.imageshack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Notice the area inside the red circle. I saw something funny there. There are 2 ridges (red arrows) where the bulldozer went forward, blade down, and backwards, blade up. The blade had to be up going backwards because the tire treads are visible. So, the bulldozer went forward and back at different angles.

You can see Rachel Corrie in between the treads when the bulldozer was going backwards, but if you look at where the edge of the ridge is when the bulldozer was moving forward, you'll see that the distance is greater than the length of the blade would have been moving forwards.

Rachel Corrie wasn't in front of the bulldozer, and it couldn't have run her over. She was off to the side, and got killed by debris from the earth being moved around her. The driver, if he saw her at all, would have seen her as not being in his path. There couldn't be malice aforethought for him to kill her if she wasn't even in front of him. Looks like she stood off to the side, wrongly assuming the ground wouldn't have moved from under feet.

Well, I guess my observation should point out who the prejudiced people here in the thread are. Opinion before facts.
 
2012-08-29 06:10:16 AM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: don't cry or make a martyr out of them


Swedish deals. I'm not.

But you really say we shouldn't throw everyone I think is stupid under a bulldozer? You're turning down a tremendous opportunity here. We could depopulate the planet by about 2/3rds.
 
2012-08-29 06:13:30 AM  

Tatsuma: Independent expert testifying for the Corrie Family


Anyone else see the logical problem with this phrase?
 
2012-08-29 07:31:33 AM  

Diogenes The Cynic: Notice the area inside the red circle. I saw something funny there. There are 2 ridges (red arrows) where the bulldozer went forward, blade down, and backwards, blade up. The blade had to be up going backwards because the tire treads are visible. So, the bulldozer went forward and back at different angles.


That's a good post, expect one problem; that is a crawler dozer. It has no tires.
 
2012-08-29 07:41:55 AM  
Hee
stupid person dies doing something idiotic and nobody else is at fault

And the world is no poorer
 
2012-08-29 11:34:38 AM  

Uncle Tractor: There is one thing Israel can do: Officially state that Gaza and the WB are part of Israel and grant the people who live there (arab and otherwise) full rights as israeli citizens.


Odd how you think when Israel gives land back, make peace with Egypt, gives its arab citizens rights it is all an evil plot to get all the land, that can onlybe disproven by a single state. But when Arabs elect a group that has removing all the jews from Israel as its stated goal then they really don't mean it and they will ive in peace with jews if there is one state.

Amos Quito: Ever notice the similarities between Gnawzi Yermany and Xionist Xrael?

The ideology, the xenophobic racism, the vicious expansionism?


Under Nazi Germany German Jews were all removed from them country adn millions of them were killed and they took over numerous countreis in wars they started, and only "returned land" when they were defeated.

Under Israel Israli Arabs gained the right to vote and enjoy a higher HDI and legal freedoms than any of the surrounding states. They have also given land back to Nations they were involved in wars with and moved out of Gaza.

So, no.


Uncle Tractor: Private ownership does not make land "jewish" or "arab" or anything else.


I didn't say private ownership.

I am pointing out how you think jews living there for thousands of years doesn't make it Jewish, but arabs living there for a few hundred makes it Arab, but there is no double standard.

Uncle Tractor: No, the one-state solution is the only civilized outcome left


Only if you take a civil war as "civilized". But Jews Israelis will be killed so I am sure you are fine with it.
 
2012-08-29 06:18:40 PM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: There is one thing Israel can do: Officially state that Gaza and the WB are part of Israel and grant the people who live there (arab and otherwise) full rights as israeli citizens.

Odd how you think when Israel gives land back, make peace with Egypt, gives its arab citizens rights it is all an evil plot to get all the land, that can onlybe disproven by a single state. But when Arabs elect a group that has removing all the jews from Israel as its stated goal then they really don't mean it and they will ive in peace with jews if there is one state.


I have no doubt there are plenty of arabs who "want to kill all jews", as you like to claim, but most just want to live their lives in peace. They're only human. Furthermore, this is a conflict that started in the late 1800s, and it has gone through several changes along the way. The peace deal with Egypt was in 1979(?). Today we have a west bank undergoing colonization and a Gaza strip that is little more than an open air prison.

However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

Uncle Tractor: Private ownership does not make land "jewish" or "arab" or anything else.
I didn't say private ownership.

I am pointing out how you think jews living there for thousands of years doesn't make it Jewish, but arabs living there for a few hundred makes it Arab, but there is no double standard.


No, there isn't, because 90% of the people living there were arab. Therefore it was arab land. If 90% of the population had been jewish, the land would have been jewish. It's not double standards; it's math.

Uncle Tractor: No, the one-state solution is the only civilized outcome left

Only if you take a civil war as "civilized".


Why would there be a civil war? Yes, the extremists on both sides would try to kill everybody else, and this single-state would have to deal with domestic terrorists for at least one generation, but it wouldn't be civil war.

But Jews Israelis will be killed so I am sure you are fine with it.

Now you're being childish again.
 
2012-08-29 07:50:39 PM  

Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?


A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution. Your only real argument against it is that you think Israel, no matter what they say or do, is bent on removing all the arabs.

Uncle Tractor: No, there isn't, because 90% of the people living there were arab. Therefore it was arab land. If 90% of the population had been jewish, the land would have been jewish. It's not double standards; it's math.


BS. According to maps you post, there were pockets of jewish land. Land where jews had lived for thousands of years. Why are those pockets not jewish land?

If it were "math" you would be able to spit out some specific criteria that you use to determine whose land it is, you can when you have been challenged int he past.


Uncle Tractor: Why would there be a civil war? Yes, the extremists on both sides would try to kill everybody else, and this single-state would have to deal with domestic terrorists for at least one generation, but it wouldn't be civil war.


Slightly different versions of Islam cause civil wars in that part of the world if one side is not clearly in power. You are also missing that the "extremists" (those that want to remove all of the "other side" from the area) are the major party for the Palestinians. Why would their position magically change?


Uncle Tractor: Now you're being childish again


Thinking a people who elected a group that wants to remove all the jews in the region, a group that celebrates people who murder jewish children, a group that would have the support of every surrounding country if there were a war wouldn't cause a civil war isn't childish?
 
2012-08-29 08:22:34 PM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution.



Ain't gonna' happen. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" was the Zionist motto long before Hitler copied it. They're not going to abandon it now.


liam76: Your only real argument against it is that you think Israel, no matter what they say or do, is bent on removing all the arabs.



That's ridiculous. Who would be left to buy retail?
 
2012-08-29 08:31:31 PM  

Amos Quito: liam76: Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution.


Ain't gonna' happen. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" was the Zionist motto long before Hitler copied it. They're not going to abandon it now.


I am wondering who you think that leader was?

I am wondering why you think they felt that strongly for "one land" when some 40% of the zionists were good with the Uganda proposal? Or were those not the zionists that were pulling the strings behind WWI, WWII, and the Holocaust? It is so hard to keep your conspiracies straight.
 
2012-08-29 09:19:30 PM  

liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution.


Ain't gonna' happen. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" was the Zionist motto long before Hitler copied it. They're not going to abandon it now.

I am wondering who you think that leader was?



Ben Gurion, as it happened.

The Nazis didn't think Hitler was immortal, did they? Likewise the Zios remained flexible.

liam76: I am wondering why you think they felt that strongly for "one land" when some 40% of the zionists were good with the Uganda proposal?


1903???

The goal was a racist State for Xews - various locations were considered - Canada, Iraq, Libya, Australia... GALVESTON - which kind of shoots down your excuse that the Xios had valid claim to the land as it was the ancestral homeland of the Jews, doesn't it liam76?

Or was Galveston part of the "Promised Land"?

Keep lying, lad. It's fun to watch.
 
2012-08-30 04:06:36 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution.


You might have had a point if there had been any land left for the arabs, but that's not the case. No, Gaza and some bantustans on the WB is not enough for a palestinian state.

Your only real argument against it is that you think Israel, no matter what they say or do, is bent on removing all the arabs.

Shiat like this does lead one to that conclusion.

Uncle Tractor: No, there isn't, because 90% of the people living there were arab. Therefore it was arab land. If 90% of the population had been jewish, the land would have been jewish. It's not double standards; it's math.

BS. According to maps you post, there were pockets of jewish land.


Yeah. In 1946. In 1850, before the first aliyah? Zero.

Land where jews had lived for thousands of years. Why are those pockets not jewish land?

Again, you're confusing private ownership with demographics. Also, the jews that had lived there for the past two thousand years were sephardim. The zionists who came in search of living space were ashkenazim. Those are two different peoples.

Slightly different versions of Islam cause civil wars in that part of the world if one side is not clearly in power. You are also missing that the "extremists" (those that want to remove all of the "other side" from the area) are the major party for the Palestinians. Why would their position magically change?

Because it never existed to begin with. Hamas is only in Gaza and (IIRC) they were elected because there wasn't any real alternative. Besides; it's easy to hate your oppressors. There was a time when the average european wanted to kill all germans. That's not what happened.

Uncle Tractor: Now you're being childish again

Thinking a people who elected a group that wants to remove all the jews in the region, a group that celebrates people who murder jewish children, a group that would have the support of every surrounding country if there were a war wouldn't cause a civil war isn't childish?


Your constant direct / indirect accusations of anti-semitism are childish, and will always be childish. Grow up, kid.
 
2012-08-30 04:14:02 AM  

liam76: I am wondering why you think they felt that strongly for "one land" when some 40% of the zionists were good with the Uganda proposal?


The early zionists didn't feel any particular ties with Palestine. They just wanted a land for jews, and I don't blame them. Palestine, Argentine, and Uganda were the leading three candidates. IIRC they settled on Palestine because that would let them play the "historical ties" card. The sephardim / mizrahim that lived there were a convenient alibi. Pity they didn't chose Argentine, because it was already cleansed of its natives, and it was the second most popular candidate. Even today, it has a disproportionately large jewish population.
 
2012-08-30 04:15:05 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Also, the jews that had lived there for the past two thousand years were sephardim.


Correction: Mizrahim. The sephardim came after 1492.
 
2012-08-30 06:51:23 AM  

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: liam76: Uncle Tractor: However, you seem to be against the single-state solution, and the two-state solution is no longer possible. What would you suggest instead? Ethnic cleansing? Palestinian bantustans?

A two state solution is far more liekly to work than a single state solution.


Ain't gonna' happen. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" was the Zionist motto long before Hitler copied it. They're not going to abandon it now.

I am wondering who you think that leader was?


Ben Gurion, as it happened.

The Nazis didn't think Hitler was immortal, did they? Likewise the Zios remained flexible


Zionists were worshipping Ben Gurion on par with Hitler and before Hitler? Your insantiy gets more and more whacke dotu every day.

Amos Quito: The goal was a racist State for Xews - various locations were considered - Canada, Iraq, Libya, Australia... GALVESTON - which kind of shoots down your excuse that the Xios had valid claim to the land as it was the ancestral homeland of the Jews, doesn't it liam76?

Or was Galveston part of the "Promised Land"?

Keep lying, lad. It's fun to watch


I didn't say they had a valid claim due to ti being an "ancestral home". I point out the pockets of jews who always lived there as an example of peopel like tractor's double standard as to what makes land jewish or arab.

And the goal was a state where they wouldn;t be persecuted, but to you a land where jews aren't persecuted must be racist.



Uncle Tractor: You might have had a point if there had been any land left for the arabs, but that's not the case. No, Gaza and some bantustans on the WB is not enough for a palestinian state.


So there is some arbitrary square mileage amount that is required to form a state that you won't elaborate on?

Odd that you want to call them "bantustans" yet if you check out the UN HDI the standard of living there is better than many neighboring arab countries. Are those places composed entierly of bantustans?

Uncle Tractor: Yeah. In 1946. In 1850, before the first aliyah? Zero.


In 1850, they were much smaller, due to massacres at the hand of Palestenians after ther fall of Ottoman rule, but they were still there. Odd that you think Arabs wiping out jews makes land legitamately arab. Actually no odd, perfectly rational given your attitude towards jews.

Uncle Tractor: Again, you're confusing private ownership with demographics. Also, the jews that had lived there for the past two thousand years were sephardim. The zionists who came in search of living space were ashkenazim. Those are two different peoples.


No I am not confusing it. I am pointing out that on virtually every apsect of this you have a double standard. I am not even talking about land they bought in the 20's an onward. (and yes when you deny a group the ability to buy land, or have a voice whent hey do buy that land you are racist agains tthat group, but we have been down that route and you are fine doing that to jews).

So when it is Arab land they can allow in as many arabs from other places as they like, when it is jewish land they can't have other jews move there?



Uncle Tractor: Your constant direct / indirect accusations of anti-semitism are childish, and will always be childish.


What else am I supposed to think about a guy who dismisses a civil war that will largely kill jews as no problem?


Uncle Tractor: liam76: I am wondering why you think they felt that strongly for "one land" when some 40% of the zionists were good with the Uganda proposal?

The early zionists didn't feel any particular ties with Palestine.


So even someone like you should be able to admit the claims Amos makes are off the deep end.
 
2012-08-30 07:14:19 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Shiat like this does lead one to that conclusion.


My neighbor just had to rip off the deck portion of his house that he enclosed, it was on land he owned but he didn't do a wetland survey. Does tha mean the ocoonty wants to remove his family fromt he area?

Also odd that you think forcing people to remove trees that, under the Oslo Accord, they didn't have permission to plant is proof that Israel wants to remove all Arabs from WB, Gaza and Israel. Despite Israeli arabs having voting rights, place on the supreme court, political parties, and offers of land swaps with Palestenians and pull-out from Gaza.

Also odd that you dismiss Palestenians celebrating people who kill Israel civlians and electing a group that has removing the jews as their goal being proof "one state" would lead to civil war.

But that isn't a double standard.
 
2012-08-30 07:18:25 AM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: You might have had a point if there had been any land left for the arabs, but that's not the case. No, Gaza and some bantustans on the WB is not enough for a palestinian state.

So there is some arbitrary square mileage amount that is required to form a state that you won't elaborate on?


It needs to be mostly continuous, and it needs to be large enough to sustain it's own economy. An enclosed Gaza strip plus a scattering of bantustans don't fit the bill. A Palestine like that would be completely dependent on israeli handouts. That's not a sovereign state.

Odd that you want to call them "bantustans" yet if you check out the UN HDI the standard of living there is better than many neighboring arab countries.

Again: Show me how the israelis have helped improve this standard of living.

Uncle Tractor: Yeah. In 1946. In 1850, before the first aliyah? Zero.

In 1850, they were much smaller, due to massacres at the hand of Palestenians after ther fall of Ottoman rule, but they were still there. Odd that you think Arabs wiping out jews makes land legitamately arab. Actually no odd, perfectly rational given your attitude towards jews.


Again with the childish accusations of anti-semitism.

No I am not confusing it.

Yes, you are.

I am pointing out that on virtually every apsect of this you have a double standard.

...And you point out this "double-standard" by confusing private ownership with demographics. Again and again and again. Not that there was much in the way of jewish owned land before zionism; IIRC it was mostly owned by absentee landlords.

I am not even talking about land they bought in the 20's an onward. (and yes when you deny a group the ability to buy land,

...which I have never done.

or have a voice whent hey do buy that land you are racist agains tthat group, but we have been down that route and you are fine doing that to jews).

You just can't stop lying, can you? Well, Israel-apologists are rarely honest people, so ...

So when it is Arab land they can allow in as many arabs from other places as they like, when it is jewish land they can't have other jews move there?

As I've said before; there is a difference between going to a country to get a job and be part of the existing community, and going to a country in order to colonize it. Of course, this is wasted on a fundamentally dishonest person like yourself.

Uncle Tractor: Your constant direct / indirect accusations of anti-semitism are childish, and will always be childish.

What else am I supposed to think about a guy who dismisses a civil war that will largely kill jews as no problem?


The "civil war" argument was often used in defense of Apartheid SA. No wonder you use it to defend Israel. The "civil war" argument is just a bogeyman for easily frightened children.
 
2012-08-30 07:21:30 AM  

liam76: My neighbor just had to rip off the deck portion of his house that he enclosed, it was on land he owned but he didn't do a wetland survey. Does tha mean the ocoonty wants to remove his family fromt he area?

Also odd that you think forcing people to remove trees that, under the Oslo Accord, they didn't have permission to plant is proof that Israel wants to remove all Arabs from WB, Gaza and Israel. Despite Israeli arabs having voting rights, place on the supreme court, political parties, and offers of land swaps with Palestenians and pull-out from Gaza.

Also odd that you dismiss Palestenians celebrating people who kill Israel civlians and electing a group that has removing the jews as their goal being proof "one state" would lead to civil war.

But that isn't a double standard.


You want the arabs to respect the Oslo accord, but you're OK with Israel wiping it's arse with it.

...And you whine to me about double-standards?
 
2012-08-30 07:41:34 AM  

Uncle Tractor: It needs to be mostly continuous, and it needs to be large enough to sustain it's own economy. An enclosed Gaza strip plus a scattering of bantustans don't fit the bill. A Palestine like that would be completely dependent on israeli handouts. That's not a sovereign state.


Why couldn't palestine trade with oher countries?



Uncle Tractor: Again: Show me how the israelis have helped improve this standard of living.


First off you could be consistent wiht your own logic. Look at what you said above. If they are completely dependent on Israel, how can you not attribute it to Israel?


Secondly. What changed between 67 and today? Why was there no growth or improvement from 48-67 but after 67 there was? What changed?

Uncle Tractor: Again with the childish accusations of anti-semitism.


You think wiping out jewish areas made the land arab, that is a fact. What else can I conclude?

Uncle Tractor: ...And you point out this "double-standard" by confusing private ownership with demographics. Again and again and again. Not that there was much in the way of jewish owned land before zionism; IIRC it was mostly owned by absentee landlords.


No. You are the one who is confusing it becasue you don't want to admit your double standards.

You deny the pockets of Jews that have been there for thousands of years have the right to call the land they are on "jewish land". You have said numerous time it was all Arab land. So your claims abotu it not being about "ownership" but about who has lived there is complete BS becaus eyou don't extend it to jews.


Uncle Tractor: or have a voice whent hey do buy that land you are racist agains tthat group, but we have been down that route and you are fine doing that to jews).

You just can't stop lying, can you? Well, Israel-apologists are rarely honest people, so ...


So if you are fine with jews buying land there and fine with them having a voice in the govt you must be fine wiht the state of Israel. Maybe not it's border, but the state itself.


Uncle Tractor: As I've said before; there is a difference between going to a country to get a job and be part of the existing community, and going to a country in order to colonize it. Of course, this is wasted on a fundamentally dishonest person like yourself.


Ah, here it is.

You believe they jews had a right to move there, they had a right to buy land, and they had a right to a voice in govt, but only if the voice was something you agreed with. If they want something arabs don't (equal rights, self determination) then they don't deserve their voice.

You just calle dme a liar fro saying you were against them having thier own voice and in the next breath you put limits on what that voice could be, and you have the nerve to call me dishonest.

Uncle Tractor: The "civil war" argument was often used in defense of Apartheid SA. No wonder you use it to defend Israel. The "civil war" argument is just a bogeyman for easily frightened children


How many wars did SA have against it's neighbors that support the group they were worried about the civil war with? At the height of MK violence, how many people did they kill a year?

Civil war argument is dismissed by peopel with no understanding of the polotics of the region, or peopel who have no problem if Israeli jews are killed.
 
2012-08-30 07:44:16 AM  

Uncle Tractor: liam76: My neighbor just had to rip off the deck portion of his house that he enclosed, it was on land he owned but he didn't do a wetland survey. Does tha mean the ocoonty wants to remove his family fromt he area?


But that isn't a double standard.

You want the arabs to respect the Oslo accord, but you're OK with Israel wiping it's arse with it.

...And you whine to me about double-standards?


I guess I missed the part of the Oslo accords where lobbing rockets was OK.

And again with yoru dishonesty I didn't say I expect them to follow it, I am pointing out Israel's actions aren't out of line accordingt ot he Oslo accords.

and this,

Also odd that you think forcing people to remove trees that, under the Oslo Accord, they didn't have permission to plant is proof that Israel wants to remove all Arabs from WB, Gaza and Israel. Despite Israeli arabs having voting rights, place on the supreme court, political parties, and offers of land swaps with Palestenians and pull-out from Gaza.

Also odd that you dismiss Palestenians celebrating people who kill Israel civlians and electing a group that has removing the jews as their goal being proof "one state" would lead to civil war.


is a double standard.
 
2012-08-30 06:16:24 PM  

liam76: Uncle Tractor: It needs to be mostly continuous, and it needs to be large enough to sustain it's own economy. An enclosed Gaza strip plus a scattering of bantustans don't fit the bill. A Palestine like that would be completely dependent on israeli handouts. That's not a sovereign state.

Why couldn't palestine trade with oher countries?


Because it would be completely locked in by Israel. That's why.

Uncle Tractor: Again: Show me how the israelis have helped improve this standard of living.
First off you could be consistent wiht your own logic. Look at what you said above. If they are completely dependent on Israel, how can you not attribute it to Israel?


Because there is a difference between "despite" and "because of". I'd like to see you explain how water shortages, house demolitions, sonic booms, death squads, white phosphor, destroyed orchards, "settler" terrorism, checkpoints, and a giant wall that cuts people off from everything have helped the palestinians improve their lot.

Despite all that the palestinians have managed to improve their living standards. Kinda makes me wonder what they'd be able to achieve if they got out from beneath the israeli boot.

Secondly. What changed between 67 and today? Why was there no growth or improvement from 48-67 but after 67 there was? What changed?

I dunno. What's changed since 1967? You tell me. I can't be bothered to look it up ATM.

You think wiping out jewish areas made the land arab, that is a fact.

No, I think making up 90% of the population makes that land yours. I said nothing about how that came to be. That's just you making shiat up, as usual.

What else can I conclude?

You'll conclude whatever you want, like you always do, even if you have to make shiat up to reach that conclusion.

No. You are the one who is confusing it becasue you don't want to admit your double standards.

And again with the childishness.

You deny the pockets of Jews that have been there for thousands of years have the right to call the land they are on "jewish land".

How big does that pocket have to be before it becomes "jewish land?" A village? A farm? An apartment?

You have said numerous time it was all Arab land. So your claims abotu it not being about "ownership" but about who has lived there is complete BS becaus eyou don't extend it to jews.

90% of the population was arab. That made it arab land. It's as simple as that. There was a time when 90% (at least) was jewish. That made it jewish land. Thanks to the massacres and ethnic cleansing in 1948, followed by massive immigration, the israeli population outside Gaza and the WB is 80% jewish. That makes it jewish land.

What was it I don't extend to jews again?

So if you are fine with jews buying land there and fine with them having a voice in the govt you must be fine wiht the state of Israel. Maybe not it's border, but the state itself.

What malfunction in your brain is it that prevents you from understanding the difference between moving to a country to make a new life for yourself (and family) and moving to a new country to colonize it and wrest it from the natives?

Uncle Tractor: As I've said before; there is a difference between going to a country to get a job and be part of the existing community, and going to a country in order to colonize it. Of course, this is wasted on a fundamentally dishonest person like yourself.

Ah, here it is.

You believe they jews had a right to move there, they had a right to buy land, and they had a right to a voice in govt, but only if the voice was something you agreed with.


So once again you make shiat up. As always.

If they want something arabs don't (equal rights, self determination) then they don't deserve their voice. You just calle dme a liar fro saying you were against them having thier own voice and in the next breath you put limits on what that voice could be, and you have the nerve to call me dishonest.

That there is what is known as a "straw man argument," which is just a particularly dishonest form of lying. Your lies are bad enough as they are. Don't put them in my mouth.

Civil war argument is dismissed by peopel with no understanding of the polotics of the region, or peopel who have no problem if Israeli jews are killed.

The civil war argument is used by people who can't defend their positions, just like the terrorist argument. It's just fear-mongering to keep the useful idiots in line.
 
2012-08-30 06:29:02 PM  

liam76: I guess I missed the part of the Oslo accords where lobbing rockets was OK.


It's right next to the part where it says it's OK to build colonies all over the WB.

Also odd that you think forcing people to remove trees that, under the Oslo Accord, they didn't have permission to plant is proof that Israel wants to remove all Arabs from WB, Gaza and Israel. Despite Israeli arabs having voting rights, place on the supreme court, political parties, and offers of land swaps with Palestenians and pull-out from Gaza.

The Oslo accords are stone dead. Nobody cares about them anymore. Well, except when they're used as an excuse for israeli asshattery.

As for the rights of israeli-arabs... what do you think will happen to those rights when their numbers become large enough for their votes to become politically relevant? When the arab voters of Israel can stop the israeli wrongdoings?

What happens when that time comes?

Just for once in your life, try to give me an honest answer.

Also odd that you dismiss Palestenians celebrating people who kill Israel civlians and electing a group that has removing the jews as their goal being proof "one state" would lead to civil war.

is a double standard.


It's only natural to celebrate when your oppressors get hurt. Europeans did the same thing whenever germans got hurt during WWII. As for Hamas, they're just in Gaza. They'd be wiped out in a single-state election. So would the extremists on the jewish side. The moderates would be able to work together.

You're an extremist yourself, of course (or a particularly tenacious troll), so you might not be able to grok the paragraph above.
 
2012-08-30 06:35:45 PM  

liam76: Amos Quito: The goal was a racist State for Xews - various locations were considered - Canada, Iraq, Libya, Australia... GALVESTON - which kind of shoots down your excuse that the Xios had valid claim to the land as it was the ancestral homeland of the Jews, doesn't it liam76?

Or was Galveston part of the "Promised Land"?

Keep lying, lad. It's fun to watch

I didn't say they had a valid claim due to ti being an "ancestral home". I point out the pockets of jews who always lived there as an example of peopel like tractor's double standard as to what makes land jewish or arab.

And the goal was a state where they wouldn;t be persecuted, but to you a land where jews aren't persecuted must be racist.



Zionist Israel is definitively racist.

And let's look at whether your alleged goal of Zionism has been achieved: Is Israel "persecuted"?

Are the Jews of Israel safe? Because it seems to me that they have been in a constant "existential fight" from day one, that they can't point to ONE neighbor in the region without saying "they're trying to kill us!".

Some success story.

What the Zionists HAVE succeeded in doing is rounding up nearly half of the world's Jewish population into an area the size of New Jersey - and surrounded by neighboring countries teeming with enemies, old and new.

www.gearfuse.com

So what do you say, liam76? Is Zionism / Israel really "good for the Jews"?
 
2012-08-30 06:41:24 PM  

Uncle Tractor: As for the rights of israeli-arabs... what do you think will happen to those rights when their numbers become large enough for their votes to become politically relevant? When the arab voters of Israel can stop the israeli wrongdoings?

What happens when that time comes?



They'll have to take whatever steps are necessary to assure that those numbers never reach that level, because that would effectively be mean the END of the Zionist regime - the end of Israel as a "Jewish State".

Not the end of the Jews, mind you, but the end of the regime and the Zionist dream.
 
2012-08-31 12:31:27 PM  

Uncle Tractor: liam76: Uncle Tractor: It needs to be mostly continuous, and it needs to be large enough to sustain it's own economy. An enclosed Gaza strip plus a scattering of bantustans don't fit the bill. A Palestine like that would be completely dependent on israeli handouts. That's not a sovereign state.

Why couldn't palestine trade with oher countries?

Because it would be completely locked in by Israel. That's why.

Uncle Tractor: Again: Show me how the israelis have helped improve this standard of living.
First off you could be consistent wiht your own logic. Look at what you said above. If they are completely dependent on Israel, how can you not attribute it to Israel?

Because there is a difference between "despite" and "because of". I'd like to see you explain how water shortages, house demolitions, sonic booms, death squads, white phosphor, destroyed orchards, "settler" terrorism, checkpoints, and a giant wall that cuts people off from everything have helped the palestinians improve their lot.

Despite all that the palestinians have managed to improve their living standards. Kinda makes me wonder what they'd be able to achieve if they got out from beneath the israeli boot.

Secondly. What changed between 67 and today? Why was there no growth or improvement from 48-67 but after 67 there was? What changed?

I dunno. What's changed since 1967? You tell me. I can't be bothered to look it up ATM.

You think wiping out jewish areas made the land arab, that is a fact.

No, I think making up 90% of the population makes that land yours. I said nothing about how that came to be. That's just you making shiat up, as usual.

What else can I conclude?

You'll conclude whatever you want, like you always do, even if you have to make shiat up to reach that conclusion.

No. You are the one who is confusing it becasue you don't want to admit your double standards.

And again with the childishness.

You deny the pockets of Jews that have been there for thousands of years have the right to call the land they are on "jewish land".

How big does that pocket have to be before it becomes "jewish land?" A village? A farm? An apartment?

You have said numerous time it was all Arab land. So your claims abotu it not being about "ownership" but about who has lived there is complete BS becaus eyou don't extend it to jews.

90% of the population was arab. That made it arab land. It's as simple as that. There was a time when 90% (at least) was jewish. That made it jewish land. Thanks to the massacres and ethnic cleansing in 1948, followed by massive immigration, the israeli population outside Gaza and the WB is 80% jewish. That makes it jewish land.

What was it I don't extend to jews again?

So if you are fine with jews buying land there and fine with them having a voice in the govt you must be fine wiht the state of Israel. Maybe not it's border, but the state itself.

What malfunction in your brain is it that prevents you from understanding the difference between moving to a country to make a new life for yourself (and family) and moving to a new country to colonize it and wrest it from the natives?

Uncle Tractor: As I've said before; there is a difference between going to a country to get a job and be part of the existing community, and going to a country in order to colonize it. Of course, this is wasted on a fundamentally dishonest person like yourself.

Ah, here it is.

You believe they jews had a right to move there, they had a right to buy land, and they had a right to a voice in govt, but only if the voice was something you agreed with.

So once again you make shiat up. As always.

If they want something arabs don't (equal rights, self determination) then they don't deserve their voice. You just calle dme a liar fro saying you were against them having thier own voice and in the next breath you put limits on what that voice could be, and you have the nerve to call me dishonest.

That there is what is known as a "straw man argument," which is just a particularly dishonest form of lying. Your lies are bad enough as they are. Don't put them in my mouth.

Civil war argument is dismissed by peopel with no understanding of the polotics of the region, or peopel who have no problem if Israeli jews are killed.

The civil war argument is used by people who can't defend their positions, just like the terrorist argument. It's just fear-mongering to keep the useful idiots in line.


I am on a phone otherwise I would have stopped the quote at your first lie. Well your first lie in this response

Once again you fail to tell the truth about basic things like geography. If Palestiniane was its own country it would share borders with countries besides Israel.
 
2012-08-31 12:39:27 PM  

Amos Quito: liam76: Amos Quito: The goal was a racist State for Xews - various locations were considered - Canada, Iraq, Libya, Australia... GALVESTON - which kind of shoots down your excuse that the Xios had valid claim to the land as it was the ancestral homeland of the Jews, doesn't it liam76?

Or was Galveston part of the "Promised Land"?

Keep lying, lad. It's fun to watch

I didn't say they had a valid claim due to ti being an "ancestral home". I point out the pockets of jews who always lived there as an example of peopel like tractor's double standard as to what makes land jewish or arab.

And the goal was a state where they wouldn;t be persecuted, but to you a land where jews aren't persecuted must be racist.


Zionist Israel is definitively racist.

And let's look at whether your alleged goal of Zionism has been achieved: Is Israel "persecuted"?

Are the Jews of Israel safe? Because it seems to me that they have been in a constant "existential fight" from day one, that they can't point to ONE neighbor in the region without saying "they're trying to kill us!".

Some success story.

What the Zionists HAVE succeeded in doing is rounding up nearly half of the world's Jewish population into an area the size of New Jersey - and surrounded by neighboring countries teeming with enemies, old and new.



So what do you say, liam76? Is Zionism / Israel really "good for the Jews"?


Is this where you ignore the historical forces that lead to Israel aside from Zionists or where you blame all those foces (WWI., WWII., pogroms, the Holocaust, etc) on Zionists?
 
2012-08-31 05:45:55 PM  

liam76: I am on a phone otherwise I would have stopped the quote at your first lie. Well your first lie in this response

Once again you fail to tell the truth about basic things like geography. If Palestiniane was its own country it would share borders with countries besides Israel.


You quoted all that text just to tell me you were on the phone? As for borders, yeah; Gaza borders to Egypt. The WB bantustans? Not so much.
 
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