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(CTNow)   Disney Princesses: Classic Fairy Tales Or Gender Stereotypes?   (ctnow.com) divider line 379
    More: Amusing, Disney Princess, gender stereotypes, Disney, George Takei, Sleeping Beauty, Aladdin, princess, Brothers Grimm  
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13564 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Aug 2012 at 3:47 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-27 06:11:20 PM
www.asatru.ru

/ not disney, but still a fairy tale... basically, if you don't mind the 19th century update
 
2012-08-27 06:11:21 PM
I'm just glad they have all been hot.
It helps my Fapitude.
 
2012-08-27 06:11:29 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-27 06:17:24 PM

RatMaster999: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 600x495]


Thanks for hotlinking the same image from the article.
 
2012-08-27 06:17:24 PM

Oznog: Bechdel Test notes the problem, that two women talking almost NEVER occurs in movies. Seriously. Almost none. Or, IF they do, it's solely to muse upon the riddle of how a male character can be so handsome and awesome. Sometimes it's because of the Smurfette Principle of only having one woman in the key cast, but then you have a movie like X-Men First Class with a number of "powerful" female characters, but they never speak to one another on-camera. Statistically odd, there definitely seems to be an unwritten law here that women talking together turns off an audience.


I feel kind of ashamed I never noticed this before, interesting point. Does Zombie Strippers count? I mean, I know that's not traditional sci-fi but they do have a lot of conversations that involve killing and eating people.

Jeez. Ripley and Vasquez never really had a conversation, did they.

Gyrfalcon: Anyhoo, the point was that NONE of that showed up in the movie; all her story got shoved aside with the idea she was just there to be a secondary love-interest.


I'm just going to defy the gods of the Internet and amiably agree with this.
 
2012-08-27 06:20:07 PM

bunner: My sister is a nice, normal housewife.

Her and her husband both worked until they could afford a house and then she quit her job to stay home with the kids, who are quite well adjusted, and she now does child care for a woman near her home and has for years.

She's bright, honest, kind, can stomp my ass at chess and can take the balls off a gnat with a semi-automatic pistol at about 30 yards.

I know, a she's supposed to be a traitor to her gender or the "movement", but, see what she did was - and this is important - she did as she f*cking well pleased and pursued the life she wanted with the person she loves. And if that isn't feminism, y'all have lost the plot. She also managed to do this after sitting through many Walt Disney cartoons. I suppose the trick is to not be so pigsh*t thick that you allow animated films to dictate your world view.


The entire point of feminism is making sure women have all the same choices and opportunities men have. Your sister is a great example of feminism in action because she was given the choice to work or to be a stay at home mom. Several male Farkers are stay at home dads because their wives make more than they did, and it made sense economically. 50 (or even 30) years ago, that wouldn't have been the case. Hell, when my parents bought their first house in 1970, the bank refused to use my mom's income because she might get pregnant and lose her job.

Feminism is about choice.
 
2012-08-27 06:20:22 PM

RatMaster999: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 600x495]


Well played.

How about this one:

img.thesun.co.uk



I am having such a good time hanging out in the forest with my best friend!


What, there's a chick over there?


50mostinfluentialdisneyanimators.files.wordpress.com

FYBYOYO! I am out!
 
2012-08-27 06:21:04 PM

Mike Chewbacca: The entire point of feminism is making sure women have all the same choices and opportunities men have.


They have more choices. Opportunity is debatable.
 
2012-08-27 06:21:06 PM

pute kisses like a man: [www.asatru.ru image 205x360]

/ not disney, but still a fairy tale... basically, if you don't mind the 19th century update



And the title of this somber fable is....?
 
2012-08-27 06:21:22 PM
images2.wikia.nocookie.net

Since we're doing non-Disney princesses too, I figured Celestia was pretty obligatory. And she has Disney-like trappings she's very un-Disney in many ways...she's one of the most powerful beings in her world, the head of state, hads no male counterpart or love interest, and is wise and learned and accomplished...and she's not even human so the beauty standard doesn't really apply.
 
2012-08-27 06:23:58 PM
The way people should look at "fairy tales" is from the "tale" perspective. Disney princesses lead a cushy life with their primary stress associated to their dependence on the (crappy) men of their life. The "tale" part is that very rarely are men found putting women in these situations and even rarer are women willingly putting themselves in the "fairy tale" role. Most of us have had the experience of struggle in our childhood and want our children to learn problem solving skills adequate for later survival. These movies should be presented to children as an "impossible" story....and girls should be taught that these movies do not have a happy ending because women who continue to be dependent upon a man can face many of the discomforts they faces prior to their "fairy tale ending" if and when the fairy tale ends.
 
2012-08-27 06:24:39 PM
So, no one is outraged that all these movies with their happy endings are giving people a false image of life and setting them up to disappointment of the mundane?

Also, the portrayal of muscular guys as stupid and or abusive has led to the skinny jeans craze.


/derp off
 
2012-08-27 06:25:10 PM

Apos: pute kisses like a man: [www.asatru.ru image 205x360]

/ not disney, but still a fairy tale... basically, if you don't mind the 19th century update


And the title of this somber fable is....?


Die Walküre

/ a little mix of the eddas, volsunga sagas, and Nibelungenlied. germanic myths count as fairy tales to me...
 
2012-08-27 06:27:36 PM
chasewestcivp1.wiki.lovett.org

it has to be a fairy tale, i mean, she's the faerie queene... it's in the title
 
2012-08-27 06:29:05 PM
I'd be more upset with Reality TV then Disney.

These Disney movies are just simple cartoons.

How about the outrage at stupid arse reality shows like 16 and Pregnant, My Sweet 16, The Kardashians BS (whatever their shows are called), Jersey Shore, etc...

Those are "realistic" women setting (in my opinion) a VERY bad example. But stupid people want to be outraged by Disney.

Sweet Baby Jebuz.....
 
2012-08-27 06:30:42 PM

pute kisses like a man: Apos: pute kisses like a man: [www.asatru.ru image 205x360]

/ not disney, but still a fairy tale... basically, if you don't mind the 19th century update


And the title of this somber fable is....?

Die Walküre

/ a little mix of the eddas, volsunga sagas, and Nibelungenlied. germanic myths count as fairy tales to me...


Is that right? Sounds like something worth reading. Thanks!
 
2012-08-27 06:31:07 PM

PeterPipersPickledPecker: [blog.pigtailpals.com image 300x318]
First princess that was worth a damn


...but too young to fap to.
 
2012-08-27 06:33:29 PM

HalEmmerich: RatMaster999: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 600x495]

Thanks for hotlinking the same image from the article.


DOH!

Guess I should've read the article...
 
2012-08-27 06:34:37 PM

WhippingBoy: Marshal805: I'm a youngster. So I'm gonna ask: Was this an issue in the 70's Feminist movement?

No, they were fighting for actual important things.


You're right. There's nothing important about how women are portrayed in popular children's media.
 
2012-08-27 06:35:17 PM

Dhusk: [images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x850]

Since we're doing non-Disney princesses too, I figured Celestia was pretty obligatory. And she has Disney-like trappings she's very un-Disney in many ways...she's one of the most powerful beings in her world, the head of state, hads no male counterpart or love interest, and is wise and learned and accomplished...and she's not even human so the beauty standard doesn't really apply.


I second this motion, and would add Princess Luna in the mix as well, though for different reasons.
 
2012-08-27 06:38:33 PM

jst3p: Mike Chewbacca: The entire point of feminism is making sure women have all the same choices and opportunities men have.

They have more choices. Opportunity is debatable.


And that's why there's still a feminist movement. That, and the fact that the GOP wants to tun the clock back to 1951.
 
2012-08-27 06:43:55 PM

Dhusk: .and she's not even human so the beauty standard doesn't really apply.


Says you.

/Luna >> Celestia anyway
 
2012-08-27 06:43:56 PM

Oznog: You can point out many chick flicks have a preponderance of female-female conversation, but that's chick flicks. It doesn't work well in sci-fi/fantasy/action.


That's because those are guy flicks.

See also: action movies
 
2012-08-27 06:46:19 PM

StaleCoffee: Jeez. Ripley and Vasquez never really had a conversation, did they.


Ripley and Newt had entire stretches of the film to themselves.

You could make an argument for the Alien Queen, too.
 
2012-08-27 06:46:37 PM

StaleCoffee: Oznog: Bechdel Test notes the problem, that two women talking almost NEVER occurs in movies. Seriously. Almost none. Or, IF they do, it's solely to muse upon the riddle of how a male character can be so handsome and awesome. Sometimes it's because of the Smurfette Principle of only having one woman in the key cast, but then you have a movie like X-Men First Class with a number of "powerful" female characters, but they never speak to one another on-camera. Statistically odd, there definitely seems to be an unwritten law here that women talking together turns off an audience.

I feel kind of ashamed I never noticed this before, interesting point. Does Zombie Strippers count? I mean, I know that's not traditional sci-fi but they do have a lot of conversations that involve killing and eating people.

Jeez. Ripley and Vasquez never really had a conversation, did they.

Gyrfalcon: Anyhoo, the point was that NONE of that showed up in the movie; all her story got shoved aside with the idea she was just there to be a secondary love-interest.

I'm just going to defy the gods of the Internet and amiably agree with this.


Not familiar with Zombie Strippers. Of course a LACK of a Bechdel scene doesn't mean it's inherently full of weak female characters, nor the converse. It's just... "curious" that there's so little female-female dialogue, and when it DOES occur, it's so often to ponder a male character and nothing else. A plot may involve a woman, a man, and an external major conflict to drive the plot- but rarely will the woman talk to another woman about the conflict they face, or to build up a character, give a backstory, whatever- it's usually about her relationship with the man. It just works that way, and there ain't much else to it

Like I say, it's often necessitated by the Smurfette Principle- only one woman in the cast. So it's just an incidental consequence there, except it only extends the question to "why can there be only one woman in a plot??" But it's apparently deeper, because there are so many movies with multiple female characters who never converse. Or, at best, it's a minimum- or, as mentioned, only conversing about a man.

Evidently there's a real turn-off of "women talking", and if you DO do it, you'd better cast yourself as a chick flick or it just won't sell. That's my theory.
 
2012-08-27 06:49:37 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Your sister is a great example of feminism in action because she was given the choice to work or to be a stay at home mom.


Actually, as a political construct, my sister wouldn't hit a dog in the ass with "feminism". She has no use for ostensibly urgent social engineering. She's too busy living her own life and as far as being given things, she always made her own decisions and made damn sure her family wall agreed, and when they didn't, compromise was the answer. I'm pretty sure that THAT is not only the gist of feminism, but life as an adult. I see your point, but mine was that if you need cartoons, magazines or weekly "you go grrrrl" sessions to run your own life, you probably don't. Feminism was a great and overdue and useful movement in it's day. Now, it's just another multi-billion dollar industry and a coat peg for marketing wankers. And for shame on that. The only problem with most successful "movements" is that they tend to keep complaining and demanding things long after their goals are achieved. I'll give a damn about the tattered remains of Western feminism when they set up shop in countries where women really are treated like chattel and stop pissing and moaning about cartoons in smirky op ed pieces.
 
2012-08-27 06:51:15 PM

This text is now purple: Oznog: You can point out many chick flicks have a preponderance of female-female conversation, but that's chick flicks. It doesn't work well in sci-fi/fantasy/action.

That's because those are guy flicks.

See also: action movies


Chicks talking to chicks don't help the dude get laid, unless the chick talking to the chick is pretending to be a dude, which is a whole different discussion. But back to my point, chicks talking to chicks usually decrease the odds of dude getting laid. This was proven in an amazing documentary:


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-27 06:51:28 PM
Wake me up when womynists feminists I-hate-my-vagina-ists start talking to real women about how life actually is instead of their make-believe world ruled by the Phallocracy with its Cock-Man Oppressors.
 
2012-08-27 06:51:36 PM

Dreamless: WhippingBoy: Marshal805: I'm a youngster. So I'm gonna ask: Was this an issue in the 70's Feminist movement?

No, they were fighting for actual important things.

You're right. There's nothing important about how women are portrayed in popular children's media.


You may not have noticed, but popular children's media tends of have unrealistic portrayals of everyone and everything.
Disney cartoons portray talking animals. We'd better put a stop to this lest children grow up and spend all their time trying to get the family dog to talk.
 
2012-08-27 06:53:12 PM

Gunny Highway: [static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

I am sure someone has a problem with her too.


I love Mulan, and there are some great messages for girls in the movie. Mulan succeeds in the military not by becoming a man, but by relying on her own talents (for instance, she solves the arrow puzzle with brains, not brawn). Yeah, yeah, cheesy, I know. And, yes, that is a good message for boys, too, but, whatever.

The thing that drives me crazy is that at the end of the movie, she's saved China from the Mongols, and the Emperor offers her a job on his council. She responds, no, that's okay, I'm going to go home to my village and do nothing with my life.*

Yep. That's the message for girls that I'm NOT crazy about.


*or something similar
 
2012-08-27 06:53:39 PM
I've been known to have bad timing for asking but this time I'm pretty confident I'm making the right move!

BIE por favor Farkette Princesses, the E is in the P!
 
2012-08-27 06:54:21 PM

Caelistis: Wake me up when womynists feminists I-hate-my-vagina-ists start talking to real women about how life actually is instead of their make-believe world ruled by the Phallocracy with its Cock-Man Oppressors.


* taps watch *
 
2012-08-27 06:55:05 PM

Oznog: StaleCoffee: Oznog: Bechdel Test notes the problem, that two women talking almost NEVER occurs in movies. Seriously. Almost none. Or, IF they do, it's solely to muse upon the riddle of how a male character can be so handsome and awesome. Sometimes it's because of the Smurfette Principle of only having one woman in the key cast, but then you have a movie like X-Men First Class with a number of "powerful" female characters, but they never speak to one another on-camera. Statistically odd, there definitely seems to be an unwritten law here that women talking together turns off an audience.

I feel kind of ashamed I never noticed this before, interesting point. Does Zombie Strippers count? I mean, I know that's not traditional sci-fi but they do have a lot of conversations that involve killing and eating people.

Jeez. Ripley and Vasquez never really had a conversation, did they.

Gyrfalcon: Anyhoo, the point was that NONE of that showed up in the movie; all her story got shoved aside with the idea she was just there to be a secondary love-interest.

I'm just going to defy the gods of the Internet and amiably agree with this.

Not familiar with Zombie Strippers. Of course a LACK of a Bechdel scene doesn't mean it's inherently full of weak female characters, nor the converse. It's just... "curious" that there's so little female-female dialogue, and when it DOES occur, it's so often to ponder a male character and nothing else. A plot may involve a woman, a man, and an external major conflict to drive the plot- but rarely will the woman talk to another woman about the conflict they face, or to build up a character, give a backstory, whatever- it's usually about her relationship with the man. It just works that way, and there ain't much else to it

Like I say, it's often necessitated by the Smurfette Principle- only one woman in the cast. So it's just an incidental consequence there, except it only extends the question to "why can there be only one woman in a plot??" ...


I'd argue it is because women and men have different native conversational styles due to the differences in our brains. Men are pretty straight forward and a lot of their thinking follows A-B-C logic, women are more complex and tend to think more in terms of relationships and emotional context, and to a certain extent their conversational style is more personalized because of that making writing female dialogue more difficult. Hell, I'm a writer and a lot of my female characters come off as Action Girls or other stereotypes even with me working at it. Of course I do write scifi so...
 
2012-08-27 06:55:38 PM

The Whore Of Mensa: She responds, no, that's okay, I'm going to go home to my village and do nothing with my life.*

Yep. That's the message for girls that I'm NOT crazy about.


Isn't that what feminism was about? Doing what you please with your life even if others think it's not important?
 
2012-08-27 06:56:26 PM
i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-27 06:57:42 PM
Snow White

i216.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-27 06:58:03 PM

brigid_fitch: SphericalTime: However, some of their recent princesses are great symbols. Merida from Brave is an awesome example, her storyline was basically, "You don't need a man to do awesome stuff and control your own destiny. " I loved the fact that she didn't even have a love interest.

And the first Disney Princess whose mother is still alive.


Probably already noted, but Mulan's mother was alive.

Mulan, the most ignored Disney character and animated movie in recent times for some reason, but one of the best.
 
2012-08-27 06:58:26 PM
Ariel

i216.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-27 06:59:27 PM
Belle

i216.photobucket.com

/rule 34?
 
2012-08-27 07:00:28 PM

WhippingBoy: You may not have noticed, but popular children's media tends of have unrealistic portrayals of everyone and everything.


TV has taught me I can be an overweight white guy who constantly lies to my hot smart wife but she will always forgive me:

img2-3.timeinc.net

img2-2.timeinc.net

static.tvguide.com
 
2012-08-27 07:00:40 PM
I hate Disney! Mike Chewbabacca, they want to turn the ol' clock back to say........1855....jus' keep us wimmen pregnant, 'n totally reliant on men. Life jus' doesn't always work out that that is a good or fair deal for someone who then is treated and pretty much viewed as free labour, and progenerator of their spouses children.......
 
2012-08-27 07:02:46 PM

LeroyBourne: So we should deprive children the movies they may love and have no desire to know about hidden meanings that they really don't understand?


Hook'em when they're young.

Amirite?
 
2012-08-27 07:05:18 PM

Oznog: Not familiar with Zombie Strippers. Of course a LACK of a Bechdel scene doesn't mean it's inherently full of weak female characters, nor the converse. It's just... "curious" that there's so little female-female dialogue, and when it DOES occur, it's so often to ponder a male character and nothing else. A plot may involve a woman, a man, and an external major conflict to drive the plot- but rarely will the woman talk to another woman about the conflict they face, or to build up a character, give a backstory, whatever- it's usually about her relationship with the man. It just works that way, and there ain't much else to it

Like I say, it's often necessitated by the Smurfette Principle- only one woman in the cast. So it's just an incidental consequence there, except it only extends the question to "why can there be only one woman in a plot??" But it's apparently deeper, because there are so many movies with multiple female characters who never converse. Or, at best, it's a minimum- or, as mentioned, only conversing about a man.

Evidently there's a real turn-off of "women talking", and if you DO do it, you'd better cast yourself as a chick flick or it just won't sell. That's my theory.



In general, ANYBODY talking in a movie is a turn-off, especially nowadays when CGI effects rule the day. Movies used to have lots of exposition and people chit-chatting about practically everything. Today, movie goers don't want to hear about stuff, they want to SEE it.
 
2012-08-27 07:05:33 PM

WhippingBoy:
You may not have noticed, but popular children's media tends of have unrealistic portrayals of everyone and everything.
Disney cartoons portray talking animals. We'd better put a stop to this lest children grow up and spend all their time trying to get the family dog to talk.


Surely you are not equating the obviously magical elements of the story with the ostensibly realistic ones?

fark, it bothers me when they anthropomorphize the animals in stereotypical ways too.
 
2012-08-27 07:15:52 PM

brigid_fitch: SphericalTime: However, some of their recent princesses are great symbols. Merida from Brave is an awesome example, her storyline was basically, "You don't need a man to do awesome stuff and control your own destiny. " I loved the fact that she didn't even have a love interest.

And the first Disney Princess whose mother is still alive.

But, yeah, Brave was definitely a departure from the Disney formula and more relatable to a LOT of kids. "See, Mom's really just looking out for you and does love you. Please don't turn her into a bear."


imgs.mi9.com

I always thought it was MAJOR weird that her only explanation was "well, when I was a little girl, a witch put a spell on me", and it'd be broken somehow by a proper kiss, which is an unusual condition to leave in a form of harm thrown at someone. And left it at that. It's odd, it's the whole premise for her character and necessary to explain her character, but it's an absurdly vague backstory. And the audience just suspended questioning there, I think assuming that it would be explained more further on, then forgetting about it. Until IIRC they started patching that canon hole in later movies.

Not to say Shrek wasn't a great movie. Just weird that you can say "a wizard did it" and not be obligated to explain it for real.
 
2012-08-27 07:16:27 PM
this legendary thread needs a badge
 
2012-08-27 07:21:38 PM

jst3p: TV has taught me I can be an overweight white guy who constantly lies to my hot smart wife but she will always forgive me:


And those are bothersome too.
 
2012-08-27 07:23:03 PM

jst3p: Masterstuff: So Brave was an Original idea? As in wasn't directly related to some fairy tale?

I said that I would only watch Disney movies if it had an original story... looks like i'll have to find this in one of the theaters that show old movies around here.

Isn't Toy Story original? I hope so because those are pretty cool movies.


NOTHING is "original" if you look at it hard enough. Star Wars is a typical "Hero's Journey" layout. Its concept for space battles was copying WWII nosecam footage, which wasn't well-known at the time because The History Channel wouldn't start airing every known frame of it in a continuous loop for another 20 years. The trench scene was a pretty shameless ripoff of an obscure WWII movie called Dambusters, like shot-for-shot. There's some video online of how Indiana Jones was a ripoff of an old black-and-white adventure movie, again, so shot-for-shot it's nearly plagiarized.
 
2012-08-27 07:25:06 PM

Dreamless: WhippingBoy:
You may not have noticed, but popular children's media tends of have unrealistic portrayals of everyone and everything.
Disney cartoons portray talking animals. We'd better put a stop to this lest children grow up and spend all their time trying to get the family dog to talk.

Surely you are not equating the obviously magical elements of the story with the ostensibly realistic ones?

fark, it bothers me when they anthropomorphize the animals in stereotypical ways too.


Obviously magical vs. ostensibly real? I'm not sure my 6-year old daughter is mature enough to make a distinction between the two in every single case.
Perhaps you shouldn't watch children's media any more. You seem to be having quite a difficult time with it.
 
2012-08-27 07:26:46 PM

DayDreamingD: The way people should look at "fairy tales" is from the "tale" perspective. Disney princesses lead a cushy life with their primary stress associated to their dependence on the (crappy) men of their life. The "tale" part is that very rarely are men found putting women in these situations and even rarer are women willingly putting themselves in the "fairy tale" role. Most of us have had the experience of struggle in our childhood and want our children to learn problem solving skills adequate for later survival. These movies should be presented to children as an "impossible" story....and girls should be taught that these movies do not have a happy ending because women who continue to be dependent upon a man can face many of the discomforts they faces prior to their "fairy tale ending" if and when the fairy tale ends.


Ever read the original Grimm's Fairy Tales? They've got some truly horrific things going on in them. There seems to be a notably different tone, to prepare kids for nightmares of reality. The kind of thing stories now have sterilized out of them.
 
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