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(Indian Country Today)   GOP outrage of the day: Meeting with Native Americans is a slap in the face to General Custer   (indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com) divider line 252
    More: Stupid, GOP, RNC, George Armstrong Custer, ProgressNow New Mexico, New Mexico, Susana Martinez, native peoples, imperialists  
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5094 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Aug 2012 at 10:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-25 10:16:51 AM  

missiv: [www.bumperart.com image 350x105]



Custer died and will never come back. yes, true.
 
2012-08-25 10:17:09 AM  
www.modrall.com
 
2012-08-25 10:19:49 AM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: [cf.ltkcdn.net image 283x424]
What Custer may look like.

/Too soon?



lol. he's lookin' good compared to how he looked when alive.
 
2012-08-25 10:21:19 AM  
the reason custer was such a "bad ass" is because he had no chin. he joined the army to get his chin back. did n't work out.
 
2012-08-25 10:26:20 AM  
WE can all agree Custer was a natty dresser.
In fact, he died wearing an Arrow shirt.
 
2012-08-25 10:38:20 AM  

BronyMedic: Col. George Armstrong Custer was an arrogant, unmitigated dick of a military officer, who's overconfidence lead him into the situation of getting his entire company slaughtered by a technologically inferior, and compartively undertrained force.

Why should we be celebrating a person who's racism and superiority complex lead to one of the most famous American military disasters in history, and who's mistakes are required study material for the American military leadership at their academies, again?


Wrong. Sorry, man.

Custer was a highly regarded Indian fighter who, like many Frontier Officers, learned the hard way. His massacre of Black Kettle's people at the Battle of the Washiata in 1868 brought a storm of protest from people all over. He modified his tactics instead and in, I believe, 1871 instead of charging in and killing, he approached alone and worked out a compromise with the tribes. As a military officer, he felt obligated to achieve his mission and after that sought to achieve his mission with a little blood shed as possible. He was regarded as highly competent in his day by many superiors.

Ironically, his career was nearly ruined by loudmouth know-nothings like Pat Rogers when he testified against the corruption going on inside the Indian Agencies. He was disgusted by the maltreatment of Agency Indians by corrupt officials, ending with Grant's brother. Agents would withhold food and other supplies and sell much of for personal profit. Many were Republican appointees, as benefited by the appointment system at the time. Grant's brother got many appointed in exchange for a cut of the profits. Custer stood up against this in Washington and nearly lost everything because of it.

At Fort Lincoln, he very nearly brought thousands of Agency Indians into the area of Fort and fed them with War Department supplies until ordered not to by the Army. For a 19th century Frontier Officer he was fairly enlightened about the treatment of Indians.

The Little Big Horn: most likely he did not mean to kill the Indians. Instead he was going to surround them and bring them to negotiation. He screwed up, underestimated the number of Indians and, combined with his own hubris, dug himself into a situation that he could not dig out of.

Custer was actually not that bad of a guy. I'm a Benteen man and Benteen despised Custer, but I think Custer was learning as he went to accomplish the missions he was given. Basically he would have approved of working with the Indians instead of being a gigantic bag of dicks, like Pat Rogers.

/Custer was a die-hard Democrat.
 
2012-08-25 11:05:21 AM  
Its pretty obvious now that we would have been much better off if the Native Americans had won instead of the psychotic white man.
 
2012-08-25 11:07:31 AM  

trotsky: /Custer was a die-hard Democrat.


The Dem party was the conservative party back then and the repubs were the liberal party
 
2012-08-25 11:12:16 AM  
Custer should get revenge.

/come on, this CAN'T be obscure
 
2012-08-25 11:26:06 AM  
mr_a

So if we extend that bit of logic, American politicians should never meet with Germans, Japanese, Italians, British, French, Russian, Korean, Chinese, Iranian, Iraqi or Vietnamese politicians, all of whom killed or at least took a shot at American generals at some point in history

or make a joke that idiots don't understand
 
2012-08-25 11:48:03 AM  
Lsherm
Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out.

Racism is defined as the belief that humanity can be divided into distinct "races". God made us color coded for our convenience sort of thing.

You seem to be implying that Native Americans were intrinsically incapable of developing modern electronics. Taking the statement further insults the great number of men and women who have contributed innovations and ideas to improving life for all people through technology, which has truly been a global effort.

So you tell me, am I reading too much into this or would you like to apologize for saying something stupid?
 
2012-08-25 11:49:25 AM  

Bob16: Its pretty obvious now that we would have been much better off if the Native Americans had won instead of the psychotic white man.


There are a lot of variables to that "What If..."

The problem is that the first colonization was a creep effect. There was scattered violence in the beginning, a couple Roanokes, but most tribes simply did not expect Europeans to come over in the numbers they did and the colonies to expand the way they did. By the time the Iroquois Confederacy realized they had a big problem on their hands, the colonists already had a foothold. Once the American Revolution threw off the leash of British parliament and we bought the Louisiana purchase and went all Manifest Destiny, they were farked. They would have had to pull off the damn near impossible and get every single tribe in a sustained effort blocking us in Ohio River valley down though the Mississippi to stop the westward expansion.

Though if the French had held onto Louisiana things could have taken a very different turn. The French had a very different relationship with the AmerIndians because they were only interested in exploiting Louisiana for resources (which they used the AmerIndian tribes to do), not colonization. They did not want to control every square inch of it the way the Americans did. If the Louisiana Purchase had remained in French hands long enough for the AmerIndians to form a stable coalition of tribes, until the American Civil War sapped America's resources, I think that we might have been dealing with the AmerIndian nation next door.

But there are so many slim chances between Jamestown and the American Civil war, I think it was sadly inevitable as it was throughout the New World. Even the most charitable European descended leaders of the time were still either mild dicks to the AmerIndians or lacked the political strength to block those who wanted them out of the way.

I have complete respect for the tribes as cultures and for the fight they put up and fully acknowledge they got utterly farked over. I wish we had a more equitable relationship with them. I think reservations should have representatives on state legislatures the same as any country/district does, but I think, IMHO, the forming of the United States was damn near inevitable.
 
2012-08-25 11:53:00 AM  
Though if the majority of AmerIndian tribes had backed the Brits in maintaining control of the colonies, rather than the Americans and America never got its Independence, we would have a very different relationship with the AmerIndian peoples.
 
2012-08-25 11:54:04 AM  
See, tons of variables in that question; the most key happening long before Custer.
 
2012-08-25 12:10:57 PM  
 
2012-08-25 12:12:45 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: Sḵwxwú7mesh is just about the only language that denotes a glottal stop with a "7"


Actually, it's common to all Coast Salish dialects. I see it in Lushootseed all the time.
 
2012-08-25 12:15:20 PM  

TV's Vinnie: In all fairness, Custer thought he was sending in his troops to massacre some (what he thought would be) women, children, and old men. What he found instead were several hundred pissed-off (and rightfully so) Cheyenne warriors.

It was one of the greatest trollings in military history.

[i50.tinypic.com image 183x210]


You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
 
2012-08-25 12:23:24 PM  
Not a single RIP Custard or some such. Not sure if dissappoint or impressed with restraint shown.
 
2012-08-25 12:26:54 PM  
Just to update this, since it looks like no one has this thread yet:

List of People Conspiring Against the GOP, and therefore, America
(LOPCATGOPATA for short):
Liberals
Democrats
Socialists
Community Organizers
Geologists
Biologists
Meteorologists
Climatologists
Atheists
Muslims
Jews
Satan
ABC
NBC
CNN
CBS
PBS
All of cable news except FNC
The New York Times
The LA Times
The Washington Post
The Associated Press
Reuters
BBC
The Guardian
Black People
Mexicans
Human Rights Activists
SCOTUS
Europe
Movie Industry
Television Industry
Environmentalists
ACLU
The United Nations
Labor Unions
Colleges
Teachers
Professors
ACORN
National Endowment for the Arts
Gays
Judges
NPR
Paleontologists
Astrophysicists
Museums (*except Creationism Museum)
WHO
WTO
Inflated tires
The Honolulu Advertiser
The Star Bulletin
Teletubbies
Sponge Bob and Patrick
Nobel Prize Committee
US Census Bureau
NOAA
Sesame Street
Comic Books
Little Green Footballs
Video Games
The Bible
CBO
Bruce Springsteen
Pennies
The Theory of Relativity
Comedy Central
Young People
whatever the hell a Justin Beiber is
Small Business Owners
Math
CPAC
Navy SEALs
The Economist
The Muppets
Iowa Republicans
Low-Flow Toilets
Penguins
Rainbows
United States Secret Service
Nuns
Jeff Bezos
Breast Cancer Screenings
Chrysler
Clint Eastwood
Robert Deniro
Tom Hanks
Glenn Frey
Bono
Bono Impersonators
Former Republican Senator Alan Simpson
Norman Rockwell
James Cameron
Dr. Seuss
The Brookings Institution
Tax Policy Center
Mitt Romney Advisor Andrea Saul
2012 GOP Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney
2012 GOP Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell
Senator Scott Brown
Representative Denny Rehberg
Senator George Allen
Senator Roy Blunt
Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
American Indians
 
2012-08-25 12:37:42 PM  
Another thing to add to the LOLCATGOPATA: Uteri.
 
2012-08-25 12:39:32 PM  

Fluorescent Testicle: Another thing to add to the LOLCATGOPATA: Uteri.


I know that uteri technically aren't people, but to be fair, neither are low-flow toilets, breast cancer screenings or Mitt Romney.
 
2012-08-25 12:46:14 PM  

Supes: Just to update this, since it looks like no one has this thread yet:


I can't believe it took that long for Native Americans to make the list.
 
2012-08-25 01:04:56 PM  

Supes: Just to update this, since it looks like no one has this thread yet:

List of People Conspiring Against the GOP, and therefore, America


O.O Epic.

Fluorescent Testicle: Fluorescent Testicle: Another thing to add to the LOLCATGOPATA: Uteri.

I know that uteri technically aren't people, but to be fair, neither are low-flow toilets, breast cancer screenings or Mitt Romney.


I thought the last IOS update made Mitt more Human-like.
 
2012-08-25 01:06:17 PM  

The Why Not Guy: skullkrusher: well, I think the President is from America and still find Warren's claims of Native American heritage laughable and pathetic.

Why? She didn't claim to be full-blooded Cherokee. She claimed she had Cherokee heritage.

I'm not full-blooded Italian, but because I was brought up immersed in the Italian culture I consider it my heritage. I also consider myself to have Irish heritage, even though I'm only something like 1/16 Irish, because my grandmother was very proud of her Irish roots and talked of them often. If that makes me laughable and pathetic, oh well. I'm making manicotti and bracciole with my mom this weekend and ain't nothing pathetic about that.

Also, as far as I know, the legal standard for claiming Native American heritage is ridiculously low - 1/32 or something like that. If she had a great great great grandparent that was full Cherokee, she'd meet the legal standard for Native American heritage.


Depends on the tribe, some require a lot more, as much as half. I think Cherokee is only 1/32 though.
 
2012-08-25 01:30:12 PM  

The Why Not Guy: skullkrusher: well, I think the President is from America and still find Warren's claims of Native American heritage laughable and pathetic.

Why? She didn't claim to be full-blooded Cherokee. She claimed she had Cherokee heritage.

I'm not full-blooded Italian, but because I was brought up immersed in the Italian culture I consider it my heritage. I also consider myself to have Irish heritage, even though I'm only something like 1/16 Irish, because my grandmother was very proud of her Irish roots and talked of them often. If that makes me laughable and pathetic, oh well. I'm making manicotti and bracciole with my mom this weekend and ain't nothing pathetic about that.

Also, as far as I know, the legal standard for claiming Native American heritage is ridiculously low - 1/32 or something like that. If she had a great great great grandparent that was full Cherokee, she'd meet the legal standard for Native American heritage.


And therein lies the difference. You grew up in the culture. Warren didn't. She claimed her Anerican Indian ancestry because being a minority gave her wood. That's sad.
 
2012-08-25 01:35:17 PM  

KiplingKat872: Bob16: Its pretty obvious now that we would have been much better off if the Native Americans had won instead of the psychotic white man.

There are a lot of variables to that "What If..."

The problem is that the first colonization was a creep effect. There was scattered violence in the beginning, a couple Roanokes, but most tribes simply did not expect Europeans to come over in the numbers they did and the colonies to expand the way they did. By the time the Iroquois Confederacy realized they had a big problem on their hands, the colonists already had a foothold. Once the American Revolution threw off the leash of British parliament and we bought the Louisiana purchase and went all Manifest Destiny, they were farked. They would have had to pull off the damn near impossible and get every single tribe in a sustained effort blocking us in Ohio River valley down though the Mississippi to stop the westward expansion.

Though if the French had held onto Louisiana things could have taken a very different turn. The French had a very different relationship with the AmerIndians because they were only interested in exploiting Louisiana for resources (which they used the AmerIndian tribes to do), not colonization. They did not want to control every square inch of it the way the Americans did. If the Louisiana Purchase had remained in French hands long enough for the AmerIndians to form a stable coalition of tribes, until the American Civil War sapped America's resources, I think that we might have been dealing with the AmerIndian nation next door.

But there are so many slim chances between Jamestown and the American Civil war, I think it was sadly inevitable as it was throughout the New World. Even the most charitable European descended leaders of the time were still either mild dicks to the AmerIndians or lacked the political strength to block those who wanted them out of the way.

I have complete respect for the tribes as cultures and for the fight they put up and fully acknowledge they got utterly farked over. I wish we had a more equitable relationship with them. I think reservations should have representatives on state legislatures the same as any country/district does, but I think, IMHO, the forming of the United States was damn near inevitable.


My understanding is that disease was even more important. According to Guns Germs and Steel, by the time the successful colonies were starting up, 90-95% of the Native Americans had died of the multiple plagues Europeans brought with them. We destabilized or destroyed a number of civilizations before we even met them.

\This is from memory, so it may not be entirely accurate.
 
2012-08-25 01:57:45 PM  

Nanny Statesman: KiplingKat872: Bob16: Its pretty obvious now that we would have been much better off if the Native Americans had won instead of the psychotic white man.

There are a lot of variables to that "What If..."

The problem is that the first colonization was a creep effect. There was scattered violence in the beginning, a couple Roanokes, but most tribes simply did not expect Europeans to come over in the numbers they did and the colonies to expand the way they did. By the time the Iroquois Confederacy realized they had a big problem on their hands, the colonists already had a foothold. Once the American Revolution threw off the leash of British parliament and we bought the Louisiana purchase and went all Manifest Destiny, they were farked. They would have had to pull off the damn near impossible and get every single tribe in a sustained effort blocking us in Ohio River valley down though the Mississippi to stop the westward expansion.

Though if the French had held onto Louisiana things could have taken a very different turn. The French had a very different relationship with the AmerIndians because they were only interested in exploiting Louisiana for resources (which they used the AmerIndian tribes to do), not colonization. They did not want to control every square inch of it the way the Americans did. If the Louisiana Purchase had remained in French hands long enough for the AmerIndians to form a stable coalition of tribes, until the American Civil War sapped America's resources, I think that we might have been dealing with the AmerIndian nation next door.

But there are so many slim chances between Jamestown and the American Civil war, I think it was sadly inevitable as it was throughout the New World. Even the most charitable European descended leaders of the time were still either mild dicks to the AmerIndians or lacked the political strength to block those who wanted them out of the way.

I have complete respect for the tribes as cultures and for the fight they put up and fully acknowledge they got utterly farked over. I wish we had a more equitable relationship with them. I think reservations should have representatives on state legislatures the same as any country/district does, but I think, IMHO, the forming of the United States was damn near inevitable.

My understanding is that disease was even more important. According to Guns Germs and Steel, by the time the successful colonies were starting up, 90-95% of the Native Americans had died of the multiple plagues Europeans brought with them. We destabilized or destroyed a number of civilizations before we even met them.

\This is from memory, so it may not be entirely accurate.


Good point. That's was what made the AmerIndians the underdogs in the first place. Though the numbers get argued over (95% is seen as being a bit extreme), it is obvious from the archeological record that entire societies were destroyed by disease.
 
2012-08-25 02:07:09 PM  
Hey GOP:

F*ck Custer.
 
2012-08-25 02:07:38 PM  

KiplingKat872: it is obvious from the archeological record that entire societies were destroyed by disease.


The example I know best is the Duwamish tribe on Puget Sound. Evidence indicates that over half of the tribe had been lost to disease before any tribal member had even seen a single white face. The Europeans' smallpox viri actually arrived before the Europeans themselves.
 
2012-08-25 02:42:17 PM  

BMulligan: KiplingKat872: it is obvious from the archeological record that entire societies were destroyed by disease.

The example I know best is the Duwamish tribe on Puget Sound. Evidence indicates that over half of the tribe had been lost to disease before any tribal member had even seen a single white face. The Europeans' smallpox viri actually arrived before the Europeans themselves.


Yeah. I think that is what is theorized to have destroyed the Mississippians/Moundbuilders as well. With the Moundbuilders, the society was so completely wiped out that when the Europeans arrived in the area, the AmerIndians living there had lost the cultural memory of who built the mounds. Basically as soon as the first Spaniard and Portugese hit the coast of the New World a host of diseases the AmerIndians had no immunity to spread through out both continents along well established trade routes.
 
2012-08-25 02:52:05 PM  

BMulligan: KiplingKat872: it is obvious from the archeological record that entire societies were destroyed by disease.

The example I know best is the Duwamish tribe on Puget Sound. Evidence indicates that over half of the tribe had been lost to disease before any tribal member had even seen a single white face. The Europeans' smallpox viri actually arrived before the Europeans themselves.


O.k. I checked that. I was wrong, the late Mississippi collapsed shortly before first contact probably due to drought and famine.

But yes, entire tribes vanished, the survivors of a plague absorbed into neighboring tribes.
 
2012-08-25 03:45:15 PM  
Lsherm

Gyrfalcon: Lsherm: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Had to bite my tongue. The words "genocide" and "trail of tears" and "wounded knee" were just going to start an argument i didn't feel like having.

As well you should have. Do you think you're stomping around the great white north because it was unpopulated when you people got there? Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out. Suck it up and accept your complicity.


So let me get this straight...we all collectively benefited from the genocide of the Native Americans, therefore its wrong to point it out to people who worship Custer and ignore the genocide?

Is that what you're trying to say here?
 
2012-08-25 03:45:27 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: [i.imgur.com image 250x151]

Makes sense. Custer was a fan of legitimate rape.


Came for this. Leaving...satisfied.
 
2012-08-25 03:48:32 PM  
Wait, was it Gyrfalcon carrying on about how we shouldn't talk about the genocide of the Native Americans or point it out? I can't remember.
 
2012-08-25 03:58:48 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, worth reading despite how sad it's going to be, or because of how sad it's going to be?


Bury My Shell At Wounded Knee was one of the most fun stages in Turtles In Time.

Leatherhead was a biatch of a boss to fight, though.
 
2012-08-25 04:09:48 PM  

Rich Cream: Not a single RIP Custard or some such. Not sure if dissappoint or impressed with restraint shown.


i285.photobucket.com 

Sorry.
 
2012-08-25 04:25:21 PM  
Are you farking kidding me? Custer was one of the biggest dickheads in the history of mankind. Everyone should spit on his grave. He was a waste of DNA and he should be stricken from the annals of history, except for the part where he died a horrible deserved death.

Fark Custer, and fark anybody that says he should be respected in any goddamn way.
 
2012-08-25 05:02:49 PM  

MeanJean: Wait, was it Gyrfalcon carrying on about how we shouldn't talk about the genocide of the Native Americans or point it out? I can't remember.


Wasn't me. I was merely addressing the lame point being made by another who was insisting we are all complicit in the genocide merely by living here.

My followup to that asinine statement was that, taking that point of view, we're all so complicit in taking someone else's land (i.e. the Anglo-Saxons stole England from the Britons, the British committed genocide on the Aborigines), we better all kill ourselves and give the world back to the Neandertals.

But I never said not to talk about it. Hell, I do that all the time.
 
2012-08-25 06:07:16 PM  
Good. General Custard was a sociopathic, narcissistic, racist ass who killed men, women and children as part of his ambition to run for President.

Let me know when they plan on digging him up to piss on him, and how much tickets cost.
 
2012-08-25 06:38:58 PM  
Custer was the equivalent of the french army. The dumbest fark on the battlefield. When you profoundly suck at your job, you shouldn't be praised.
 
2012-08-25 06:57:37 PM  

vossiewulf: and he commandeered a bugler's horse


Makes off with the bugler's horse. Dies at Little Big Horn.

Poetic.
 
2012-08-25 07:02:48 PM  

brantgoose: Good. General Custard was a sociopathic, narcissistic, racist ass who killed men, women and children as part of his ambition to run for President.

Let me know when they plan on digging him up to piss on him, and how much tickets cost.


Get in line.
 
2012-08-25 09:49:59 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: Custer was the equivalent of the french army. The dumbest fark on the battlefield. When you profoundly suck at your job, you shouldn't be praised.


Which French army are you talking about?
 
2012-08-25 10:36:19 PM  
img2-1.timeinc.net

"Custer was a coont. The end."
 
2012-08-25 11:08:35 PM  
By the way...

Buffalo Calf Road Woman

n 2005 Northern Cheyenne storytellers broke more than 100 years of silence about the battle, and they credited Buffalo Calf Road Woman with striking the blow that knocked General George Armstrong Custer off his horse before he died.

Not suprised the kept silent about it, seeing as people still worship him.
 
2012-08-26 02:44:49 AM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Lsherm
Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out.

Racism is defined as the belief that humanity can be divided into distinct "races". God made us color coded for our convenience sort of thing.

You seem to be implying that Native Americans were intrinsically incapable of developing modern electronics. Taking the statement further insults the great number of men and women who have contributed innovations and ideas to improving life for all people through technology, which has truly been a global effort.

So you tell me, am I reading too much into this or would you like to apologize for saying something stupid?


You're reading too much into it, because you added the word "intrinsically." That's your own bias showing through. It's not surprising, because liberals find racism in everything. The native population had no need to expand their ability for war, construction, or government, so they didn't do it. Race doesn't have shiat to do with it.

The Native American population didn't have any pressing need to participate in the Industrial Revolution because they were doing just fine on their own. They lived in a balance, as best they could, with the land and animals on the North American continent. They fought with each other over resources, but their larger attempts at city-states were generally in South America.

The colonization of North America and the decimation of the native population occurred during a boom of inventions by the largely western European colonists who had to figure out how to live in the new land while also killing the people who lived there already. And everyone - you, me, the Canadians - are living the benefit of that genocide. So it strikes me as particularly asinine to complain about the genocide instead of acknowledging it and admitting we're all beneficiaries of it.
 
2012-08-26 02:48:32 AM  

MeanJean: Lsherm

Gyrfalcon: Lsherm: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Had to bite my tongue. The words "genocide" and "trail of tears" and "wounded knee" were just going to start an argument i didn't feel like having.

As well you should have. Do you think you're stomping around the great white north because it was unpopulated when you people got there? Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out. Suck it up and accept your complicity.

So let me get this straight...we all collectively benefited from the genocide of the Native Americans, therefore its wrong to point it out to people who worship Custer and ignore the genocide?

Is that what you're trying to say here?


You're correct, we all collectively benefited from the genocide.

It's wrong to accost people who worship Custer if you don't acknowledge yourself as a beneficiary of the genocide, yes. It shows an alarming lack of self-awareness.
 
2012-08-26 06:59:51 PM  
Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

I've Farkied you appropriately.
 
2012-08-26 08:18:29 PM  

Lsherm: MeanJean: Lsherm

Gyrfalcon: Lsherm: Bill_Wick's_Friend: Had to bite my tongue. The words "genocide" and "trail of tears" and "wounded knee" were just going to start an argument i didn't feel like having.

As well you should have. Do you think you're stomping around the great white north because it was unpopulated when you people got there? Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out. Suck it up and accept your complicity.

So let me get this straight...we all collectively benefited from the genocide of the Native Americans, therefore its wrong to point it out to people who worship Custer and ignore the genocide?

Is that what you're trying to say here?

You're correct, we all collectively benefited from the genocide.

It's wrong to accost people who worship Custer if you don't acknowledge yourself as a beneficiary of the genocide, yes. It shows an alarming lack of self-awareness.


We may benefit from it, but let's stop getting all "sins of the father" in here. It's bad enough Christians tell me that I'm a horrible sinner doomed to die in evil because of Adam and Eve eating some fruit, I don't also need to be demonized because my ancestors moved to America after all of the Native genocide and land-gobbling.
 
2012-08-27 12:22:21 AM  

Lsherm: MusicMakeMyHeadPound: Lsherm
Custer was an asshole, but you and I aren't arguing via magical electron connected typing devices because the native population won out.

Racism is defined as the belief that humanity can be divided into distinct "races". God made us color coded for our convenience sort of thing.

You seem to be implying that Native Americans were intrinsically incapable of developing modern electronics. Taking the statement further insults the great number of men and women who have contributed innovations and ideas to improving life for all people through technology, which has truly been a global effort.

So you tell me, am I reading too much into this or would you like to apologize for saying something stupid?

You're reading too much into it, because you added the word "intrinsically." That's your own bias showing through. It's not surprising, because liberals find racism in everything. The native population had no need to expand their ability for war, construction, or government, so they didn't do it. Race doesn't have shiat to do with it.

The Native American population didn't have any pressing need to participate in the Industrial Revolution because they were doing just fine on their own. They lived in a balance, as best they could, with the land and animals on the North American continent. They fought with each other over resources, but their larger attempts at city-states were generally in South America.

The colonization of North America and the decimation of the native population occurred during a boom of inventions by the largely western European colonists who had to figure out how to live in the new land while also killing the people who lived there already. And everyone - you, me, the Canadians - are living the benefit of that genocide. So it strikes me as particularly asinine to complain about the genocide instead of acknowledging it and admitting we're all beneficiaries of it.


In my case...that's gonna be REAL friggin' interesting to claim.

On my maternal family, I have at least one and possibly two separate doses of Cherokee ancestry, enough that I do know my clan and if the tribal rolls for most federally-recognised Cherokee tribes hadn't been closed in the mid-90s I'd probably have a tribal membership card.

The main reason I do not have such a card is due to the federally recognised tribes closing the rolls in the 90s, and my ancestors in general trying to pass as "Black Irish" from about 1838 on--thanks to Andy Jackson deciding that gold mining rights were more important than a Supreme Court decision legally recognising the Cherokee Nation as sovereign (a Supreme Court decision which, ironically, is the core legal basis for recognition of tribal sovereignity--and for denying First Nations people not only US citizenship but even the right to be naturalised as US citizens until 1924 when all First Nations peoples were mass-nationalised by an act of Congress).

As US law generally went by rulings akin to the "one-drop rule" in the Southeast US in particular, pretty much all of my ancestors on my mother's side--including the earliest documented ancestor on the rolls who got handed off as an infant to a Cherokee family who'd already escaped and resorted to "passing" as "Black Irish" to keep from being involuntarily deported to Oklahoma--all of them lived de facto as illegal aliens in their own home countries, with no way of naturalisation, and (at least up until the 1910s) with a very real legal possibility that they could be deported involuntarily to Oklahoma as the one group in the US (besides the children of diplomats) to which the Fourteenth Amendment expressly did not apply.

I'm not entirely sure how my ancestors benefited from having their entire nation (save for a small guerrilla resistance that held out until 1879 and a sympathetic white man helped get the Qualla Boundary re-recognised) forcibly marched to Oklahoma in one of the first documented instances of ethnic cleansing and my family having to hide its heritage until very recently; frankly I'd have preferred it if the family hadn't had to completely concentrate on "passing" up through the time my youngest uncles came of age. (We still have family members who really don't "pass" all that much.)

I will also note, as an aside, that the Cherokee were also one of five Southeastern nations that were especially renowned for adopting Western ways ANYWAYS when they were useful--things like Western styles of government, printing presses, Christianisation, the whole nine yards. Fat lot of good it did them.

On my father's side of the family...we're still tracing things out, but there is some evidence coming out of Melungeon ancestry--Melungeons, if you're unfamiliar, are actually a triracial group comprised of Irish-American, African-American, and (largely) Cherokee ancestry and are pretty much all descendants of people who hid out in the mountains from the genocidal society at large, intermarried, and then pretty much spent time "passing" as either Portugese descendants, "Black Dutch", or (if light-coloured enough) as Irish-Americans. Again, pretty much descendants of all the folks that the "Western genocidal culture" screwed over, they made moonshine-ade out of it.

About the only folks you can really blame for the genocide (rather than having been overt victims of it!) in my case are the splash of Irish ancestry in my maternal family (and I guess you could call it "assisted" for a definition of "saved my Cherokee ancestors' asses and intermarried with them and even kept the family legends going about how we had a dead-poor ancestor escape the Trail of Tears when he was a little-bitty kid", and MAYBE some of my paternal Irish and possibly-African-American ancestors who were either freedmen or escaped slaves.

Unless, of course, you apparently think "passing" is assisting in genocide rather than, you know, doing the one thing you can to KEEP from being genocided on your own land.

Now, African-American cultural extinction...ok, that I do have to own up to, the Cherokee Nation did keep slaves, and the modern (post-"casino politics") tribal governments keep wanting to take away tribal citizenship granted to African-Americans who were adopted/nationalised into the tribe and intermarried with ethnically Cherokee people--basically a case of shutting down the rolls even further. That's a similar kettle of fish nobody seems to want to touch with a 40-foot barge pole, though...

/all humans are capable of being bastards, regardless of race or nationality
//all people are capable of great acts of good or great acts of bastardy
 
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