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(Greek Reporter) NewsFlash Not insane in the membrane   (thelocal.no) divider line 390
    More: NewsFlash, Oslo, biological membrane, bomb attacks, spree killers  
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32001 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2012 at 5:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-08-24 09:40:57 AM
It's funny because the majority of posters in here who are complaining about the "light" sentence, are the same morons found in politics threads complaining about the powers of government. The way some of you can hold hold two conflicting ideas in your head at the same time has to be painful. At least I hope it is.

/and to the posters not living in Norway who say they aren't reassured by this verdict....why should Norwegians give a rat's ass what you think?
 
2012-08-24 09:41:12 AM

crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.


No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.
 
2012-08-24 09:41:15 AM
The psychologist in question:

i48.tinypic.com

There's nothing wrong with dis brain! 
 
2012-08-24 09:42:41 AM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.


And he'll never get to leave. After a while that's quite certainly going to get to him.
 
2012-08-24 09:42:44 AM

Carth: Some highlights: Homicide rate per 100,000: Sweden: 1.0, Norway .6, UK 1.2, United States 4.2, Canada 1.6. Rape rate per 100,000: Sweden: 63.5, Norway, 19.2, UK 28.8, United States 27.3, Canada 1.7. Assault rate per 100,000: Sweden 936.6 Norway 59.9, United States 250.9, Canada 161.

So it looks like you are four times more likely to be killed in the US but twice as likely to be beaten up in Sweden.


Four times more likely to be beaten up. Twice as likely to be raped.

I wonder how much effect Sweden's retroactive rape laws play on this.
 
2012-08-24 09:43:42 AM
Many of you f*cking idiots didn't get the gist of my original post. (lots of "intellect" claims above)

Mine was response to way above claim that in prison he will get "dahmer effect"

My point---the same kind of "SYSTEM" that requires only a "minimum of 10 years" for the murder of 77 people is also the kind of system that will likely make sure the inmate is well protected from harm.

....and....I wonder what the VIKINGS would have done to him?
 
2012-08-24 09:46:33 AM

Virtuoso80: Ilmarinen: Virtuoso80: That's doesn't mean that making our laws like Norway's will cause a reduction in crime.

Well you won't know until you've tried it, will you?

Actually we did try it in the 1960's. Crime rates skyrocketed. Most studies show an inverse correlation between changes in jail time for crimes and crime rates, both in the USA and elsewhere. Comparing USA to Norway is comparing apples to lingonberries. Different cultures, histories, governments, geopolitical locations, etc.


This, of course, is why we jail a higher percent of our population than anyone else and have such a low, low crime rate.

These studies have been disproven through experiment. Our system does not work and there is no length of prison time that will make it work.

The big issue is punishment versus rehabilitation. Longer sentences to rehab is preventative, longer sentences to punishment has proven to not be preventative. So long as it is viewed as a system for victims to get retributive justice, it will fail because that does not solve the problem. And we've been proving that for years.

Most people commit crimes at one point or another, even if they are accidental or out of ignorance or because the laws are inconvenient. One person speeds, another does pot, both are guilty of the same kind of thinking but if caught one gets a ticket and the other mandatory prison time depending on the jurisdiction. One is late to the bowling alley, the other loses their job and has a very low chance of finding another due to their record. Why? Because, in their minds, they weren't doing anything worse than the guy going 30 in a 25.

Which one is most likely to commit other crimes due to reduced legit opportunities?

"Get tough on crime" means "we're giving up on rehabilitating, it doesn't work" which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You'll see a temporary dip, but then it comes right back.
 
2012-08-24 09:46:37 AM
Norway is what happens when a civilization evolves beyond what the US is capable of ... oh yeah, most of the US doesn't even believe in evolution ... ug.
 
2012-08-24 09:50:35 AM

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.

No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.


I guess Norwegians price their freedom higher than Lousianians :)
I hope he changes his mind some day, and realizes that all he thought was wrong and that his actionas were wrong and that the enormity of his murders weighs down on him.

And I hope that some time after that someone will notice, that he's actually reformed, and that he is freed from prison and can get out of prison and spend the rest of his life enriching his society rather than makign it poorer. And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about actual value.

At least that's what I hope when I don't think about my kids and some schmuck killing them. I think we're lucky that our justice system projects the best in us rather than the worst.
 
2012-08-24 09:51:27 AM

WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


Health and safety should be on that like a flash I would have thought - he could crick his neck if it isn't at the right angle based on his height in a seated position.

/we were doing a load of VDU assessments today, coincidentally...
 
2012-08-24 09:54:38 AM

WhyteRaven74: Homicide rate in Sweden, 1.0 per 100,000, in Denmark .9 per 100,000, in Norway, .6 per 100,000, in the big bad UK 1.2 per 100,000....the United States 4.2 per 100,000


What, you don't think shoplifting should count the same as murder?
 
2012-08-24 09:55:39 AM

WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


Through my vol. work I know a cop-killer (paranoid-schizophrenic who's now on med's and made a lot of progress-NOT that I'm arguing with his life sentence) Who lives out his life in a 4x8 cell (that's a sheet of plywood, folks-try standing on one sometime while whistling Jimmy Buffet's "I Have Found Me a Home").
Cell was obviously intended for one person, but because the state (NOT NC where I now live) was at 177% of capacity, second bunks were added.
One of his "cellies" was another psycho who tried to rape him. He did 6 months in the hole for defending himself, but he couldn't snitch because, especially in that state, 'snitches die first'. Another time an inmate tried to kill him with a trash can, but he managed to keep it below the radar.
I didn't know whether he was alive or dead during that time, but at least he had some peace and quiet for a while.
 
2012-08-24 09:56:10 AM

wickedragon: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.

No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.

I guess Norwegians price their freedom higher than Lousianians :)
I hope he changes his mind some day, and realizes that all he thought was wrong and that his actionas were wrong and that the enormity of his murders weighs down on him.

And I hope that some time after that someone will notice, that he's actually reformed, and that he is freed from prison and can get out of prison and spend the rest of his life enriching his society rather than makign it poorer. And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about actual value.

At least that's what I hope when I don't think about my kids and some schmuck killing them. I think we're lucky that our justice system projects the best in us rather than the worst.


There are very few things that are forever inexcusable, and there is nothing you can do to convince society that you can walk as a free man among other free men and be trusted after you have committed one of those acts.

I consider the wholesale slaughter of innocent children to be among those very few things.
 
2012-08-24 09:57:42 AM
On a dark and stormy night just a few short years ago in Norway...

img16.imageshack.us
 
2012-08-24 09:59:30 AM

pnome: I pray to every possible deity in the multiverse that chance comes for one of the surviving victim.This guy should be shot, in the kidney, at close range and left to bleed./there's no rehabilitating psychos like this. Just shoot them and get it over with.


So you want another victim in this saga? Someone that luckily survived the attack, and already has to live with seeing others killed around them, and now you want them to go to jail for murder after all that just to satisfy your bloodlust? You are pretty farking evil.
 
2012-08-24 10:00:21 AM

dittybopper: wickedragon: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.

No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.

I guess Norwegians price their freedom higher than Lousianians :)
I hope he changes his mind some day, and realizes that all he thought was wrong and that his actionas were wrong and that the enormity of his murders weighs down on him.

And I hope that some time after that someone will notice, that he's actually reformed, and that he is freed from prison and can get out of prison and spend the rest of his life enriching his society rather than makign it poorer. And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about actual value.

At least that's what I hope when I don't think about my kids and some schmuck killing them. I think we're lucky that our justice system projects the best in us rather than the worst.

There are very few things that are forever inexcusable, and there is nothing you can do to convince society that you can walk as a free man among other free men and be trusted after you have committed one of those acts.

I consider the wholesale slaughter of innocent children to be among those very few things.


dittybopper: wickedragon: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.

No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.

I guess Norwegians price their freedom higher than Lousianians :)
I hope he changes his mind some day, and realizes that all he thought was wrong and that his actionas were wrong and that the enormity of his murders weighs down on him.

And I hope that some time after that someone will notice, that he's actually reformed, and that he is freed from prison and can get out of prison and spend the rest of his life enriching his society rather than makign it poorer. And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about actual value.

At least that's what I hope when I don't think about my kids and some schmuck killing them. I think we're lucky that our justice system projects the best in us rather than the worst.

There are very few things that are forever inexcusable, and there is nothing you can do to convince society that you can walk as a free man among other free men and be trusted after you have committed one of those acts.

I consider the wholesale slaughter of innocent children to be among those very few things.


Which is why you live in America and not a country with a murder rate several times less than your own country's. Actions have effects and America is no different. We treat our criminals with vengeance and disdain, and when they get out, they commit more, seeing the world as they do. Other countries see it differently, AND IT WORKS. I applaud them for not giving in to base emotions and actually applying reason to crimes.

I'm sure Norway could give a flying fark what any person from the US thinks about their justice system.
 
2012-08-24 10:03:45 AM
Having lived extensively in both the US and Sweden (why are we even talking about Sweden in this thread?), I can assure you that Sweden is the safer of the two. No contest. Perhaps instead of looking at raw numbers, you also investigate rate of reports. Or any context, really. Trying to say that Sweden has a worse crime problem than America is
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-24 10:05:51 AM

WhyteRaven74: beta_plus: Liberals should all be delighted that their liberal progressive tolerant welfare state paradise has just operated precisely the way that they have demanded America operate for decades.

He's going to spend his life in prison, that's not exactly getting off lightly.

/the guy should be executed by firing squad

So people should reduce themselves to his level?



So you're just basically a complete know-it-all?
 
2012-08-24 10:08:42 AM

RobotSpider: WhyteRaven74: So you want to sink to his level?

It's not sinking to his level. He shot innocent people going about their lives. I would be shooting a self-confessed, pro-genocide, mass-murderer. He admitted he had done it, and would do it again given the chance. I'm generally not in favor of the death-penalty, except in very extreme cases. This is the template for those cases.


Yeah, for some it's rising
 
2012-08-24 10:12:56 AM

relcec: you people are relying on ides that might have been valid back when we had the la riots, but certainly not since then.


...According to the United Nations Sixth Annual Survey on Crime, crime recorded in police statistics shows the crime rate for the combined total of all Index crimes in Sweden to be 6981.48, per 100,000 inhabitants in 1997. This compares with 1345.94 for Japan (country with a low crime rate) and 4930.06 for USA...


Did you know that, per capita, there are more rapes reported to the police in the UK than there are in South Africa?

100% true* and almost entirely meaningless.

*NB - 100% truthiness according to some stats I recall from the Daily Mail - probably accurate, just horribly misleading.
 
2012-08-24 10:14:21 AM

craigdamage: I wonder what the VIKINGS would have done to him?


The parents would have demanded blodpenger. There might also have been a challenges of holmgang. Also, the local chief might have invited him on the next viking raid.
 
2012-08-24 10:15:52 AM

kuli: /Norwegian journalist covering the trial.


Are the families of the victims OK with this sentence?
 
2012-08-24 10:16:09 AM
Lt. Cheese Weasel

21 years for 77 murders. Highest standard of living of any country... Nearly free medical care... Half the obesity rate of the U.S... Higher life expectancy than the U.S... Higher quality health system then the U.S... Homicide rate 1/7th the rate of the U.S.. Lower poverty rate than the U.S... Higher ranking educational system than the U.S.. Welcome to your Socialist Paradise.
 
2012-08-24 10:16:30 AM

Carth: Some highlights: Homicide rate per 100,000: Sweden: 1.0, Norway .6, UK 1.2, United States 4.2, Canada 1.6. Rape rate per 100,000: Sweden: 63.5, Norway, 19.2, UK 28.8, United States 27.3, Canada 1.7. Assault rate per 100,000: Sweden 936.6 Norway 59.9, United States 250.9, Canada 161.

So it looks like you are four times more likely to be killed in the US but twice as likely to be beaten up in Sweden. You are safer in every category in both Norway in Canada.


What's the likelihood of a rape or assault being reported in the different countries?
 
2012-08-24 10:19:44 AM

Uncle Tractor: Carth: Some highlights: Homicide rate per 100,000: Sweden: 1.0, Norway .6, UK 1.2, United States 4.2, Canada 1.6. Rape rate per 100,000: Sweden: 63.5, Norway, 19.2, UK 28.8, United States 27.3, Canada 1.7. Assault rate per 100,000: Sweden 936.6 Norway 59.9, United States 250.9, Canada 161.

So it looks like you are four times more likely to be killed in the US but twice as likely to be beaten up in Sweden. You are safer in every category in both Norway in Canada.

What's the likelihood of a rape or assault being reported in the different countries?


That is actually a big problem with police statistics. The willingness of the population to report things has a huge impact. If a culture doesn't shame or look down upon rape victims people are far more willing to come forward and report the crime. If barroom fights are common every weekend police might not bother charging anyone with assault and so on.
 
2012-08-24 10:24:27 AM
i141.photobucket.com
 
2012-08-24 10:25:35 AM

seadoo2006: Which is why you live in America and not a country with a murder rate several times less than your own country's.


Actually, the homicide rate among "European Americans" is pretty much the same as that of Europe as a whole.

US "European American" homicide rate: 2.74 per 100,000 (Source: CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports)

European Homicide rate: 3.5 per 100,000 (Source: List of countries by intentional homicide rate Wikipedia page

This actually makes sense if you break down the European numbers by region:

Eastern Europe 6.4 per 100,000
Northern Europe 1.5 per 100,000
Southern Europe 1.4 per 100,000
Western Europe 1.0 per 100,000

If we assume that the propensity for violence among subcultures to be cultural and independent of accessibility of firearms, and that you get your cultural values from your parents and peers (who got their from their parents and peers, and so forth back in time), then it makes perfect sense that the homicide rate for "European Americans" in the United States would be somewhere between that of Northern/Southern/Western Europe, and that of Eastern Europe, because we've had a significant influx of immigration from all four regions of Europe.
 
2012-08-24 10:27:49 AM

Carth: That is actually a big problem with police statistics. The willingness of the population to report things has a huge impact.


That's why I like homicide statistics: It's essentially county bodies, which means there isn't as much reporting error.
 
2012-08-24 10:34:55 AM

GibbyTheMole: Lt. Cheese Weasel

21 years for 77 murders. Highest standard of living of any country... Nearly free medical care... Half the obesity rate of the U.S... Higher life expectancy than the U.S... Higher quality health system then the U.S... Homicide rate 1/7th the rate of the U.S.. Lower poverty rate than the U.S... Higher ranking educational system than the U.S.. Welcome to your Socialist Paradise.


Yes, and we (the US) have also subsidized much of Norway's defense. Had we not had tens of thousands of troops in Europe, along with being the 800 lb gorilla in NATO, how much more money would Norway have had to spend for defense instead of social programs?

In short: 

i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-08-24 10:35:32 AM

dittybopper: If we assume that the propensity for violence among subcultures to be cultural and independent of accessibility of firearms, and that you get your cultural values from your parents and peers (who got their from their parents and peers, and so forth back in time), then it makes perfect sense that the homicide rate for "European Americans" in the United States would be somewhere between that of Northern/Southern/Western Europe, and that of Eastern Europe, because we've had a significant influx of immigration from all four regions of Europe.


If you're going to cherry-pick stats based on some BS "cultural" excuse, then I'd say fair's fair and demand you also remove Eastern Europe from your totals.

/can't believe I'm even replying to you
 
2012-08-24 10:43:13 AM

wickedragon: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: crab66: WegianWarrior: This is where Breivik will spend the rest of his life:
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 380x570]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]
[ap.mnocdn.no image 780x438]

I love the fact that he wont even be allowed to change the screen angle on the provided laptop...


I need to go commit some crimes in Scandinavia.

I have paid good money to stay in hotels that were not that nice.

No shiat. He's got a huge window, a computer, separate bathroom, nice desk and shelves, a small home gym, they feed him three times a day and he most likely doesn't have to work another day in his life.  I guess that's the punishment for slaughtering kids in Norway.

I guess Norwegians price their freedom higher than Lousianians :)
I hope he changes his mind some day, and realizes that all he thought was wrong and that his actionas were wrong and that the enormity of his murders weighs down on him.

And I hope that some time after that someone will notice, that he's actually reformed, and that he is freed from prison and can get out of prison and spend the rest of his life enriching his society rather than makign it poorer. And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about actual value.

At least that's what I hope when I don't think about my kids and some schmuck killing them. I think we're lucky that our justice system projects the best in us rather than the worst.


I agree, If he ever realizes what he is and what he has done, it will be the worst punishment he could ever face. Who knows, he may even work toward atonement, while I can't imagine what he could ever do to achieve that it would still be the best possible for everyone if that is the case. If he were have been put to death, he would be a martyr for some, which is the last thing anyone who can think would want.
 
2012-08-24 10:43:19 AM

Bonanza Jellybean: 21 years seems like a light sentence.


yeah but he will get at least 10 years minimum, that will teach him
 
2012-08-24 10:45:38 AM

xria: pnome: I pray to every possible deity in the multiverse that chance comes for one of the surviving victim.This guy should be shot, in the kidney, at close range and left to bleed./there's no rehabilitating psychos like this. Just shoot them and get it over with.

So you want another victim in this saga? Someone that luckily survived the attack, and already has to live with seeing others killed around them, and now you want them to go to jail for murder after all that just to satisfy your bloodlust? You are pretty farking evil.


See, it's not murder if they did something bad in the past.

/This is what vengeance-nuts actually believe.
 
2012-08-24 10:49:41 AM

WhyteRaven74: Virtuoso80: That's doesn't mean that making our laws like Norway's will cause a reduction in crime.

Well what we've been doing hasn't helped very much. Increasing punishments, turning what had been misdemeanors and turning them into felonies etc. Also our way of running prisons isn't exactly helping things either.


Don't forget mandatory minimum sentences. A 286 PC could take the place of a judge at a sentencing hearing. Our incarceration rates mean that the only thing that prisons do "right" is to keep People Who Do Bad Things in exile from The Rest of Us, even though 97% of them can be expected, sooner or later, to live among us Good People again. So, is that how we've "solved" the crime problem of, say, 20 years ago?
Consider this: We've outsourced millions of jobs to Mexico, China, etc.
We've outsourced pollution to China, Nigeria, etc.
We've outsourced drug violence and the necessary weapons first to Colombia, then Mexico, and now Honduras.
When L.A. officials cracked down on Honduran gangs, they gave many members a free ticket home. Wanna guess what happened?
Honduras is now the non-belligerent country with the highest murder rate in the world, and San Pedro Sula (the city where many of the L.A. punks are from) is the 'non-war zone' city with the highest murder rate in the world. GOOD NEWS: American boots are on the ground in this latest front in the War on Drugs, choppers in the air (Something Mexico would never allow as long as it has a functional gov't.), playing an endless game of cat-and-mouse.
Anybody remember the '80's?
And how well THAT turned out?
 
2012-08-24 10:55:29 AM

dittybopper: Yes, and we (the US) have also subsidized much of Norway's defense. Had we not had tens of thousands of troops in Europe, along with being the 800 lb gorilla in NATO, how much more money would Norway have had to spend for defense instead of social programs?


This crap again...

rolleyes.jpg

How about zero? For that matter, how much money would the US have been able to spend on social programs if you had been willing to pay taxes? Welfare states aren't free, and the US "defense" is mostly about bombing countries populated by brown people. You could have done without.
 
2012-08-24 10:56:52 AM

swahnhennessy: dittybopper: If we assume that the propensity for violence among subcultures to be cultural and independent of accessibility of firearms, and that you get your cultural values from your parents and peers (who got their from their parents and peers, and so forth back in time), then it makes perfect sense that the homicide rate for "European Americans" in the United States would be somewhere between that of Northern/Southern/Western Europe, and that of Eastern Europe, because we've had a significant influx of immigration from all four regions of Europe.

If you're going to cherry-pick stats based on some BS "cultural" excuse, then I'd say fair's fair and demand you also remove Eastern Europe from your totals.

/can't believe I'm even replying to you


No. Removing Eastern Europe would be incorrect because the US had a very significant influx of immigration from Eastern Europe starting in the late 19th Century. Those Eastern Europeans blended in with the other "European Americans" already in the US, or coming into the US at the same time (or later) from other areas of Europe.

I can't believe that this simple concept (violence is cultural and unrelated to weapon access) isn't as widely accepted as it is.

For example: My region of the US has a homicide rate of about 1 per 100,000. Yet we are literally *AWASH* in guns. And it's independent of gun laws: I live in New York, not far from Vermont. Despite NY having *MUCH* more strict laws about handguns than Vermont, the homicide rate on either side of the border is roughly similar, because the culture and demographics are similar. You have to drive a significant distance away from that border into New York State before that changes.

Also, this region (Upstate NY north of Albany, along with Vermont) was largely settled by Western Europeans over 200 years ago, and it's still largely "Western European" in demographic character.
 
2012-08-24 10:59:07 AM

Uncle Tractor: dittybopper: Yes, and we (the US) have also subsidized much of Norway's defense. Had we not had tens of thousands of troops in Europe, along with being the 800 lb gorilla in NATO, how much more money would Norway have had to spend for defense instead of social programs?

This crap again...

rolleyes.jpg

How about zero? For that matter, how much money would the US have been able to spend on social programs if you had been willing to pay taxes? Welfare states aren't free, and the US "defense" is mostly about bombing countries populated by brown people. You could have done without.


Yes, because from 1941 to 1990, the US didn't spend *ANYTHING* in Europe.
 
2012-08-24 11:02:03 AM

dittybopper: Yes, because from 1941 to 1990, the US didn't spend *ANYTHING* in Europe.


And how much of that "subsidized" Norway's defense?
 
2012-08-24 11:02:22 AM
Nobody's asked the crucial question here.

How slippery is the soap in Norwegian prisons?
 
2012-08-24 11:18:32 AM

Bungles: Paris1127: Bathia_Mapes: cman: profplump: cman: There is also a very good chance that he will, too

And if he's no longer a danger to society, shouldn't he be? Wouldn't you rather he worked for a living?

I'd actually would rather see him put to death. You cannot rehabilitate psychopaths. You cant.

Well, that's not even an option in Norway. They abolished capital punishment in 1979.

And by the time they abolished it, it had been 31 years since the last execution---a Nazi collaborator, one of Quisling's friends.

/Belarus is the only European country which still executes
//the last EU nation to execute someone was Latvia in 1996
///the guillotine was last used in 1977; after that, all European executions were either by shooting or hanging



And Belarus is only "European" in the geographic sense. It's essentially a V for Vendetta hell hole.


Didn't Belarus petition Russia to be annexed, but they weren't up to Putin's high standards or something?
 
2012-08-24 11:19:29 AM

Bonanza Jellybean: 21 years seems like a light sentence.


Perhaps it will be consecutive terms. I highly doubt we will hear from Nazi Neckbeard again.

I happened to look up the annual murder rate in Norway. It's about 28-29. So this guy in a single day kicked it up 250%

Probably the most ambitious Norwegian since Amundsen.
 
2012-08-24 11:21:43 AM

swahnhennessy: dittybopper: If we assume that the propensity for violence among subcultures to be cultural and independent of accessibility of firearms, and that you get your cultural values from your parents and peers (who got their from their parents and peers, and so forth back in time), then it makes perfect sense that the homicide rate for "European Americans" in the United States would be somewhere between that of Northern/Southern/Western Europe, and that of Eastern Europe, because we've had a significant influx of immigration from all four regions of Europe.

If you're going to cherry-pick stats based on some BS "cultural" excuse, then I'd say fair's fair and demand you also remove Eastern Europe from your totals.

/can't believe I'm even replying to you


But come on. He's a gentleman white supremacist.
 
2012-08-24 11:34:39 AM

Uncle Tractor: dittybopper: Yes, because from 1941 to 1990, the US didn't spend *ANYTHING* in Europe.

And how much of that "subsidized" Norway's defense?


I don't have figures at hand*, of course, but I'm all for pulling at least half our troops out of Europe as a cost savings measure, as this article suggests. That would be roughly 40,000 personnel, not including civilian contractors or dependents. I wonder what kind of a hit the European economy would take from that? A quick, back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that it would be something like $1,296,000,000 lost to the local economy just in military pay alone, not including civilians hired by the US, etc.

I'd also suggest making Norway more responsible for patrolling the western Barents Sea and the Norwegian Sea, which would mean the Norwegian Navy would probably have to at least double in size. You can't effectively keep track of an area that big with only 6 submarines and a handful of frigates: Using the common 1/3 refitting, 1/3 in transit, 1/3 on station formula, that would leave but 2 subs on station, and a like number frigates.

I find it silly than anyone would suggest that the US wasn't responsible for paying for a very large portion of the total defensive budget of Europe for the last 70 years. And even if the US didn't actually spend a significant amount of money in any particular country, every member of NATO (of which Norway is one) knows and has known that it didn't have to spend as much for defense because the US was willing to step in and foot a large part of the bill. That allowed nations like Norway to keep their military expenditures at low levels, and to spend a larger proportion of their money on social programs. Technically, it's called the "Free Rider Problem".

*A quick Google search didn't reveal a link to hard numbers.
 
2012-08-24 11:39:47 AM

Donn C. Drummond in Disguise: Bungles: Paris1127: Bathia_Mapes: cman: profplump: cman: There is also a very good chance that he will, too

And if he's no longer a danger to society, shouldn't he be? Wouldn't you rather he worked for a living?

I'd actually would rather see him put to death. You cannot rehabilitate psychopaths. You cant.

Well, that's not even an option in Norway. They abolished capital punishment in 1979.

And by the time they abolished it, it had been 31 years since the last execution---a Nazi collaborator, one of Quisling's friends.

/Belarus is the only European country which still executes
//the last EU nation to execute someone was Latvia in 1996
///the guillotine was last used in 1977; after that, all European executions were either by shooting or hanging



And Belarus is only "European" in the geographic sense. It's essentially a V for Vendetta hell hole.

Didn't Belarus petition Russia to be annexed, but they weren't up to Putin's high standards or something?


No
 
2012-08-24 11:51:06 AM
How does Norway compare to the US in size? It's much easier to control crime in a smaller state.

Also, what is the tax rate in Norway such that they could afford such humane prisons? In the US, just getting criminals off the street is a huge cost, much less developing a rehab program.

That all said, I wonder how I would react if it were *my* kid that got killed by the guy. I'd like to think I could be objective about it and not look for revenge, but I'd also want to know that he got what he gave (or took away) from my child.

Am I too rational to be commenting on this?
 
2012-08-24 12:02:15 PM

indylaw: But come on. He's a gentleman white supremacist.


I guess it's easier to smear someone with false accusations of racism than to actually, you know, form an intellectual argument. Shuts down an uncomfortable debate quicker, doesn't it?


/Fark you *VERY* much.
 
2012-08-24 12:14:53 PM

ZAZ: How does a Norwegian prosecutor prove continued danger to society after 21 years are up?


He doesn't. It's on Breivik to prove he's changed so much, he's no longer dangerous.
 
2012-08-24 12:23:01 PM

Bacontastesgood: kuli: /Norwegian journalist covering the trial.

Are the families of the victims OK with this sentence?


Well, with so many victims there are a lot of families and differing opinions. Still, it seems like the vast majority are pleased. The most important aspect for many was that Breivik shouldn't be deemed criminally insane.

As I've said several times in this thread, this is not an ordinary 21 year prison sentence, but 21 years preventive detention. It means that after 21 years (minimum 10), he can appeal to be released every five years.

Release will only happen if a) there is no chance of him performing more crimes and/or b) there is no danger of him being hurt by someone in the general public.

In this case it's pretty safe to say he'll never walk free again.
 
2012-08-24 12:33:01 PM

dittybopper: I don't have figures at hand*, of course, but I'm all for pulling at least half our troops out of Europe as a cost savings measure, as this article suggests. That would be roughly 40,000 personnel, not including civilian contractors or dependents. I wonder what kind of a hit the European economy would take from that? A quick, back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that it would be something like $1,296,000,000 lost to the local economy just in military pay alone, not including civilians hired by the US, etc.


...Of which how much would be lost to the norwegian economy?

I'd also suggest making Norway more responsible for patrolling the western Barents Sea and the Norwegian Sea, which would mean the Norwegian Navy would probably have to at least double in size. You can't effectively keep track of an area that big with only 6 submarines and a handful of frigates: Using the common 1/3 refitting, 1/3 in transit, 1/3 on station formula, that would leave but 2 subs on station, and a like number frigates.

First of all, Norway also has a coast guard. Second, the navy has around 70 vessels, which is a bit more than six subs and a "handful of frigates."

I find it silly than anyone would suggest that the US wasn't responsible for paying for a very large portion of the total defensive budget of Europe for the last 70 years.

I find it silly that anyone would suggest that this is why northern Europe can afford welfare states -- and perhaps also that this is why the US can't afford the same ...
 
2012-08-24 12:39:20 PM

Virtuoso80: Actually we did try it in the 1960's. Crime rates skyrocketed.


Crime rates rose prior to changes in enforcement. The changes you are referring to were enacted in response to the first stages of the increase in crime rates. We can agree that those attempts failed to stem the rise, but they weren't the cause of the rise. This is similar to how some of Giuliani's "Creative Policing" policies were credited with reducing crime rates in NYC, but statistical analysis shows they had little to do with the decline compared to other changes such as increasing the number of patrolmen.

The increase in crime in the 1960's was caused primarily by the diaspora of poor farm workers who saw their livelihoods displaced by increasing farm mechanization. This, coupled with the extraordinary general prosperity of the times, created both opportunity and motive.
 
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