pnome: what is the point of keeping him alive?

Because we're better than him.

What I find interesting about this isn't the whole imprisonment issue, but the insanity issue. The typical way it plays out - in North America anyway - is the defense tries to establish their client as insane, while the prosecution tries to argue they are sane. And yet here we have the reverse playing out. The defense is doing its best to try and establish his sanity, while the prosecution is trying its hardest to show he's insane. Very weird. I mean, I understand the "whys" behind it taking place, but it's still odd to see it playing out that way.

MeinRS6: His crusade against muslims would have made a lot more sense if he had gone and killed a bunch of muslims instead of a bunch of kids at camp.

Shiatstacks like this often view a society that doesn't join their crusade against "Hated Group X" as complicit in advancing the agenda/invasion of "Hated Group X" and view the members of that society as equally guilty of whatever made-up crime is being used to justify the hate. Bear in mind also that the camp he shot up was run by a political party that he hated.

"If you're not with me, you're against me".

craigdamage: 21 years, with a minimum of 10 years

WTF? 77 deaths.

So,if you kill just a few people in Norway I guess you get what,a couple weeks?


Sorry. If these once Vikings are such pussies now....I seriously doubt he will get any "Dahmer treatment" over there.

Is this what WWII did to Europe?
Is this why they are all a bunch of nannies?

WTF? 190+ posts in.

So, if you don't read the article or the thread you get what? To look like an ignorant moran?

Is this what your upbringing did to you?
Is this why you sound so stupid?

indylaw: craigdamage: 21 years, with a minimum of 10 years

WTF? 77 deaths.

So,if you kill just a few people in Norway I guess you get what,a couple weeks?


Sorry. If these once Vikings are such pussies now....I seriously doubt he will get any "Dahmer treatment" over there.

Is this what WWII did to Europe?
Is this why they are all a bunch of nannies?

They have far lower crime rates than we do. Maybe we could learn something from them.

But I guess that would make us pussies.

It is more important that victims and their families feel better than lowering the crime or recidivism rate.

The American revenge system doesn't work, but makes a lot people feel good. I thought basing decisions on feelings was bad?

I guess It really depends on the feelings. Revenge, hatred, fear are all ok to base policy on. Compassion and empathy are never ok to base policy on. I guess that about sums it up.

Carth. Far less common does not mean it does not happen. An entire country hates this guy's guts and you don't think any prisoner would think he deserves to die now and not after decades in prison?

twotowner: An entire country hates this guy's guts and you don't think any prisoner would think he deserves to die now and not after decades in prison?

Odds are in Norway other prisoners will understand that he is being punished to the fullest extent of the law and it is not their place to do anything, nor would their doing anything make anything better for anyone, only make things worse for themselves.

kapaso: The American revenge system doesn't work, but makes a lot people feel good. I thought basing decisions on feelings was bad?

I guess It really depends on the feelings. Revenge, hatred, fear are all ok to base policy on. Compassion and empathy are never ok to base policy on. I guess that about sums it up.

Compassion and empathy are womanly traits, and we can't have that. America is a raging man-boner, ready to man-fark the rest of the world, and they'll know us by the fact that we are MEN.

Voiceofreason01 and we live in a civilized world? interesting...

Maybe it's just me, but I think the easiest solution would be to just let him go.

/right in front of the courthouse.
/at high noon on a Saturday.
/after informing the public.
/I suspect he won't get far...

in other news lex talionis is a great name for a new Super Hero

scottyvr6: One of my best friends, after ingesting a copious amount of mushrooms, ended up shooting a cop, naked, with her own gun.

Nobody died.

He got 22 years.

WTF

Did he do it in Norway?

Protip: Different countries have different justice systems.

twotowner: Carth. Far less common does not mean it does not happen. An entire country hates this guy's guts and you don't think any prisoner would think he deserves to die now and not after decades in prison?

Have you seen the prison he'll be housed in? I should have said "practically unheard of" instead of less common. He will likely serve his time in jail and be completely forgotten by most people after a decade or two.

way south: Maybe it's just me, but I think the easiest solution would be to just let him go.

/right in front of the courthouse.
/at high noon on a Saturday.
/after informing the public.
/I suspect he won't get far...

You seem to think that Oslo is like San Antonio, where everyone has a gun and is filled with righteous outrage and is ready to dispense some good ol' timey frontier justice.

Healthy adults don't act like that in a civilized society. We don't engage in a cycle of vengeance. That's the way that the mafia operates.

WhyteRaven74: pnome: what is the point of keeping him alive?

Because we're better than him.

Resources on this planet are finite. Would you rather keep this guy alive, or maybe add those resources to a project that will do some good for society. I dunno, maybe spend it here: http://www.krisesenter.com/english/english.html

Uncle Tractor: cman: There is also a very good chance that he will, too

Sure, forty or fifty years from now, he'll dodder out of the prison gates (after a long succession of forvaring hearings), look at all the young people who don't give a crap about religion or skin color and ask himself: "I threw away my life for this?"

THIS.

indylaw: kapaso: The American revenge system doesn't work, but makes a lot people feel good. I thought basing decisions on feelings was bad?

I guess It really depends on the feelings. Revenge, hatred, fear are all ok to base policy on. Compassion and empathy are never ok to base policy on. I guess that about sums it up.

Compassion and empathy are womanly traits, and we can't have that. America is a raging man-boner, ready to man-fark the rest of the world, and they'll know us by the fact that we are MEN.

Caricature's of men has been more in line with my personal experience, but yea. This thread is depressing. It's not that I wouldn't like to see brevik punished, I just see that revenge offers no path forward, plus thier system has worked very well while ours is an utter failure.

pnome: Keeping this guy incarcerated is expensive. JUST SHOOT HIM.

Norway isn't some third-world country. We can afford to be civilized.

Man, I'm certainly glad that most of our American tea party activists are usually not nearly brave enough to achieve this sort of thing! Congratulations to you!

pnome: Would you rather keep this guy alive, or maybe add those resources to a project that will do some good for society. I dunno, maybe spend it here: h

Nothing says we can't do both.

rufus-t-firefly: scottyvr6: One of my best friends, after ingesting a copious amount of mushrooms, ended up shooting a cop, naked, with her own gun.

Nobody died.

He got 22 years.

WTF

Did he do it in Norway?

Protip: Different countries have different justice systems.

wiat, people have different values than americans?? they must be somehow inferior.

mjg: That was the problem with the Nuremburg Trials- citing genocide as a crime and convicting those charged with it as genocide was not technically a crime.

Military tribunal ≠ civilian court.

Waitasec. He's Norwegian. How could he not be a berserker?

I think it is interesting that Norway finds killing the children of liberals the act of a sane man.

craigdamage: Is this what WWII did to Europe?
Is this why they are all a bunch of nannies?

Somewhere along the way, we realized it was better to be smart on crime than tough on crime. That's what civilization did to us.

Uncle Tractor: pnome: Keeping this guy incarcerated is expensive. JUST SHOOT HIM.

Norway isn't some third-world country. We can afford to be civilized.

How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

Is this the thread where I can spout my outrage at how retarded Norway is even though they have a much lower rate of violent crime per capita than the US has?

indylaw: way south: Maybe it's just me, but I think the easiest solution would be to just let him go.

/right in front of the courthouse.
/at high noon on a Saturday.
/after informing the public.
/I suspect he won't get far...

You seem to think that Oslo is like San Antonio, where everyone has a gun and is filled with righteous outrage and is ready to dispense some good ol' timey frontier justice.

Healthy adults don't act like that in a civilized society. We don't engage in a cycle of vengeance. That's the way that the mafia operates.

I'm willing to bet that angry humans will behave like angry humans no matter which flag they wave over their heads or how loudly they proclaim to "know better".

/these are the same Europeans that offed each other by the millions during the last great war.
/I'm sure they've got some savage left in them.

digistil: Bonanza Jellybean: 21 years seems like a light sentence.

He only killed 77 people and says he'd love to do it again. 21 years seems harsh, if anything.

He's like a kid out there, just shooting peeps in the head and having fun.

Father_Jack: rufus-t-firefly: scottyvr6: One of my best friends, after ingesting a copious amount of mushrooms, ended up shooting a cop, naked, with her own gun.

Nobody died.

He got 22 years.

WTF

Did he do it in Norway?

Protip: Different countries have different justice systems.

wiat, people have different values than americans?? they must be somehow inferior.

Well, obviously. OUR system has great recidivism rates, so we definitely should lecture other countries on the faults of their systems.

Link

Recidivism is measured by criminal acts that resulted in the rearrest, reconviction, or return to prison with or without a new sentence during a three-year period following the prisoner's release.

Summary findings

During 2007, a total of 1,180,469 persons on parole were at-risk of reincarceration. This includes persons under parole supervision on January 1 or those entering parole during the year. Of these parolees, about 16% were returned to incarceration in 2007.
Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. 

In Norway, there isn't nearly the same amount of repeat offenders:

Link

Norway's Prisoner Recidivism Rate Is Much Lower Than The United States': The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it's estimated that 67 percent of America's prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

They also have a .6 homicides per 100,000 population, which is 1/8 of the rate in the US.

Surely, they need to radically change their justice system. I mean, they don't even have for-profit prisons! Think of all the money to be made with more prisoners and longer sentences! 

At the very least, they should run their prisons as if the inmates are subhuman. That's the best way to fix them.

Carth: twotowner: Carth. Far less common does not mean it does not happen. An entire country hates this guy's guts and you don't think any prisoner would think he deserves to die now and not after decades in prison?

Have you seen the prison he'll be housed in? I should have said "practically unheard of" instead of less common. He will likely serve his time in jail and be completely forgotten by most people after a decade or two.

The pictures you linked to are of Halden Fengsel down in Østfold county. Breivik is being kept at Ila Fengsel up in Akershus county. Pictures of the exact suite where Breivik will be staying have been posted upthread by WegianWarrior.

WhyteRaven74: pnome: Would you rather keep this guy alive, or maybe add those resources to a project that will do some good for society. I dunno, maybe spend it here: h

Nothing says we can't do both.

Resources are finite on this planet.

The amount of money Norway is going to spend on this guy could feed an entire refugee camp.

JUST SHOOT HIM!

indylaw: craigdamage: 21 years, with a minimum of 10 years

WTF? 77 deaths.

So,if you kill just a few people in Norway I guess you get what,a couple weeks?


Sorry. If these once Vikings are such pussies now....I seriously doubt he will get any "Dahmer treatment" over there.

Is this what WWII did to Europe?
Is this why they are all a bunch of nannies?

They have far lower crime rates than we do. Maybe we could learn something from them.

But I guess that would make us pussies.

actually, I doubt you can find a citiation that says norway has lower crime rate than we do, nevermind one that says they have a significantly lower crime rate than we have as you contend.

the u.s. now has a significantly lower crime rate than many western EU countries.
in the u.s. violent and nonviolent crime has been dropping since 1993 or so.
in europe it has been rising for a couple of decades. our homicide rate is still higher, but you are much more likely to be a victim of crime in many of EU nations that employ the rehabilitation programs and hand out the lenient sentences that you espouse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-v io lent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

MeinRS6: His crusade against muslims would have made a lot more sense if he had gone and killed a bunch of muslims instead of a bunch of kids at camp.

Legally "not crazy" is always a little unsatisfying when someone clearly is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

As someone who has been psychotic once in my life (before diagnosis and treatment, and who remembers it in all too much detail), I can testify that while yes, such a person has the capacity to harm himself or others, but only based on the delusions of the moment, such as believing a certain person is the "devil". Since the mind is in a state of chaos, a little while later that same person might be an "angel" (I've also seen this happen with others.)
Paranoia, on the other hand, is a chronic condition which allows a person to build up elaborate conspiracy delusions against actual people, vaguely defined groups, or imaginary troublemakers. They tend to become highly socially isolated, and since others don't share their delusions, they rarely join groups. I have no idea of the crime stat's for this group, since many of their "foes" are hybrid delusion/reality or utterly imaginary.
True psychopaths I believe are much more rare than pop culture would have us believe (thank God). While they can briefly ape basic social skills,
they are utterly lacking in conscience (or "impulse control", if you prefer) and act only in perceived self-interest. This is an easy label to pin on criminals, but probably only a small number fit the DSM description. (Many criminals, like the ape-aping feces-throwers, are "at war with society", which matter I'll leave to the criminologists, now that they're functioning as a bona-fide scientific discipline, instead of just taking law-enforcement's word for everything.)
Complicating matters is the fact that a person may have multiple conditions (Ask me sometime what that's like!)
Complicating matters a great deal further, mentally ill people are notorious for self-medicating, and if they choose psychosis-inducing drugs (a longer list for us than for the rest of you), that's when people's faces get eaten off.
As for Brevik, his problems are at least as much sociological as psychological. But as an attorney who specialized in fighting pedophiles in behalf of their victims once asked: "Why do we call them 'sick' when the right word is 'sickening'!" He added that to simply to label such people mentally ill ab-solves them of the responsibility of being "evil" (GASP-I used the ultra un-PC world for a concept which clearly has no place in this modern world!)
How can you effectively resist evil when you refuse to acknowledge it?
If Hitler was evil, why not Breviik?

kapaso: How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

The impression I have so far is relief.

ManifestDestiny: Carth: twotowner: Carth. Far less common does not mean it does not happen. An entire country hates this guy's guts and you don't think any prisoner would think he deserves to die now and not after decades in prison?

Have you seen the prison he'll be housed in? I should have said "practically unheard of" instead of less common. He will likely serve his time in jail and be completely forgotten by most people after a decade or two.

The pictures you linked to are of Halden Fengsel down in Østfold county. Breivik is being kept at Ila Fengsel up in Akershus county. Pictures of the exact suite where Breivik will be staying have been posted upthread by WegianWarrior.

Thank you. Time lied to me and said that was the prison he'd be at. I didn't notice the other post until you pointed it out.

kapaso: Uncle Tractor: pnome: Keeping this guy incarcerated is expensive. JUST SHOOT HIM.

Norway isn't some third-world country. We can afford to be civilized.

How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

From what I have personally observed, they're mostly relieved that it's over and that everyone can get back to living their lives knowing that he's under lock and key. There was a lot of resentment towards the media that the case was front page news to begin with (although with the understanding that it was necessary). They would have preferred to ignore and forget him in the context of him being, at the most basic level, an attention whore.

Uncle Tractor: kapaso: How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

The impression I have so far is relief.

Sounds about right, it really sucks.

crab66: Yet somehow those countries have much lower crime rates than we do.

Have you seen how much a beer costs in Norway?

Now that's criminal.

pnome: WhyteRaven74: pnome: Would you rather keep this guy alive, or maybe add those resources to a project that will do some good for society. I dunno, maybe spend it here: h

Nothing says we can't do both.

Resources are finite on this planet.

The amount of money Norway is going to spend on this guy could feed an entire refugee camp.

JUST SHOOT HIM!

And make sure you eat your broccoli because there are starving kids in China.

kapaso: Uncle Tractor: pnome: Keeping this guy incarcerated is expensive. JUST SHOOT HIM.

Norway isn't some third-world country. We can afford to be civilized.

How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

Not one person I've spoken to today has suggested the death penalty. They all understand that he is locked up for life, and they're satisfied with that. They are definitely torn about the sane/insane label, and what each of those labels mean to Brevik's sentence, but nobody is screaming for blood. It's an amazingly calm, subdued day.

I want to go back home to the US some day but when I read things like I read today (see the whargarble above), it makes me glad I'm here. For all of Norway's faults, they damn well understand human rights and justice. I'm proud of them today.

Why does anyone who's not Norwegian even have an opinion about this? This story's newsworthy and interesting, but impotent non-Norwegian rage is impotent and non-Norwegian.

/It's as ridiculous as a man having an opinion on birth control. Nobody would do such a thing!

twomutts: kapaso: Uncle Tractor: pnome: Keeping this guy incarcerated is expensive. JUST SHOOT HIM.

Norway isn't some third-world country. We can afford to be civilized.

How are Norwegian's reacting to the verdict?

Not one person I've spoken to today has suggested the death penalty. They all understand that he is locked up for life, and they're satisfied with that. They are definitely torn about the sane/insane label, and what each of those labels mean to Brevik's sentence, but nobody is screaming for blood. It's an amazingly calm, subdued day.

I want to go back home to the US some day but when I read things like I read today (see the whargarble above), it makes me glad I'm here. For all of Norway's faults, they damn well understand human rights and justice. I'm proud of them today.

Thanks for restoring a little faith in mankind, I sure need it. Genuinely sorry for what happened.

rufus-t-firefly: Father_Jack: rufus-t-firefly: scottyvr6: One of my best friends, after ingesting a copious amount of mushrooms, ended up shooting a cop, naked, with her own gun.

Nobody died.

He got 22 years.

WTF

Did he do it in Norway?

Protip: Different countries have different justice systems.

wiat, people have different values than americans?? they must be somehow inferior.

Well, obviously. OUR system has great recidivism rates, so we definitely should lecture other countries on the faults of their systems.

Link

Recidivism is measured by criminal acts that resulted in the rearrest, reconviction, or return to prison with or without a new sentence during a three-year period following the prisoner's release.

Summary findings

During 2007, a total of 1,180,469 persons on parole were at-risk of reincarceration. This includes persons under parole supervision on January 1 or those entering parole during the year. Of these parolees, about 16% were returned to incarceration in 2007.
Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. 

In Norway, there isn't nearly the same ...

i think i found your problem, your sarcasm meters busted.

please see my post 2012-08-24 06:38:48 AM

for a more honest posting of how i feel on this sorta thing.

cman: Norway isnt the United States

pnome: The amount of money Norway is going to spend on this guy could feed an entire refugee camp.

Luckily Norway can afford to do both.

relcec: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-v io lent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

If you actually read the article you'd notice they're interested in social issues, not how to come up with harsher sentences since they know that doesn't fix anything. Actually fixing social problems is how London was turned around a century ago.