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(Sports Illustrated) NewsFlash Lance Armstrong's time in France rubs off as he surrenders to U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, loses Tour titles   (sportsillustrated.cnn.com) divider line 524
    More: NewsFlash, United States Anti-Doping Agency, United States, International Cycling Union, Floyd Landis, U.S. Agent, Tour de France, blood doping, EPO  
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4116 clicks; posted to Sports » on 23 Aug 2012 at 11:10 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-08-24 01:25:48 PM  
There is actual evidence that Armstrong doped. I recall from a couple of years ago a situation where rider samples had been saved and were retested years later using new technology. The problem was that, under the rules at the time of the races, the samples were to be either discarded after the races, or they could be retained for research purposes but the key to tying any particular sample to any particular rider was not to be retained. The samples were kept, as was the identification information. They went back and tested old Armstrong samples with new technology and found direct evidence of doping.

My belief is that everyone was doping just beyond the limits of the detection technology. I tend to believe those people who have said this for years. The sport was not clean, but at least it was fair. With everyone pushing their red blood levels to the same cut off ratios, they all had as equal a chance to success as each other. The final results had more to do with strategy and preparation. Lance has always said he tested clean and that he played within the rules at the time. These statements are both true. They also confirm that he doped in the same manner as everyone else who tested "clean." Again, the difference between the riders came down to preparation, training and organization.

Personally, my view is that the races are over for Lance. I don't care if he ever races again, and likely neither does he. He is retired. Close the book and go forward with testing in accordance with today's detection technology. It doesn't do any good to revisit Marco Pantani, Lance Armstrong or any one else. Let it go and move forward.
 
2012-08-24 01:26:57 PM  

jimw: If he is innocent, which is very likely, considering how long they have been trying to nail him, I hope that after they damage him by stripping him of his titles, etc., and promotional opportunities, that he is is a real position to sue the committee for damages.

Up to now it has only been suspicion by the committee, which can't be translated into real dollars. However if they strip him of his winnings, then it becomes something that is concrete and can be calculated.

That means he can sue in a real court. have a real trial, and have the case heard by a real judge and jury where the person is assumed to be innocent until proved guilty. If he is innocent I hope he takes them for all that they have got! If not, we will all know the truth based on evidence, not on innuendo.


Uhhh, you know how I know you know nothing about athletics? The guy had cancer, went through chemo and lost a testicle. He was then, after his comeback, racing guys 10 years younger than him who trained just as hard as he did and had the same genetic gifts he did who WERE doping, and he beat them clean? So I bet you think Bonds was innocent, too, right? After all, he never failed a drug test!

Even though he was doping, too, it still doesn't take away his accomplishments (he still kicked cancers ass, then came and won one of the most grueling races on earth against guys younger than him who were doping, so it was a level playing field). But lying about it does.

There is no doubt he was doping.
 
2012-08-24 01:28:31 PM  

jimw: If he is innocent, which is very likely, considering how long they have been trying to nail him, I hope that after they damage him by stripping him of his titles, etc., and promotional opportunities, that he is is a real position to sue the committee for damages.

Up to now it has only been suspicion by the committee, which can't be translated into real dollars. However if they strip him of his winnings, then it becomes something that is concrete and can be calculated.

That means he can sue in a real court. have a real trial, and have the case heard by a real judge and jury where the person is assumed to be innocent until proved guilty. If he is innocent I hope he takes them for all that they have got! If not, we will all know the truth based on evidence, not on innuendo.


I'd never predict that lance armstrong wouldn't sue someone - he's a pretty litigous person. But I'd bet my bike he won't initiate a court case that leaves open the possibility of subpoenaing Hincapie's testimony. Because he doesn't want anyone to see that. George is loyal and steadfast but he won't lie under oath.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sports/cycling/hincapie-an-armstron g -teammate-seen-as-reluctant-but-reliable-witness.html?pagewanted=all

Looks like they haven't talked in a while. Maybe they had a falling out over who paid the bar tab or something? Yeah, that's probably what it is.
 
2012-08-24 01:29:41 PM  

igosplat: Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to.

Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!
 
2012-08-24 01:40:35 PM  

igosplat: Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to. This is true, every one of the top 5 from those 7 victories have been caught doping. Now we add every American cyclist since Andy Hampsten. The 10 US riders from Lance's teams have now admitted they doped and received 6 months suspensions instead of 2 years. That means a personal favorite George Hincapie is now an admitted doper. No wonder he was able to lead out NoNuts up the mountains and no wonder he announced his retirement after the article came out exposing them during this year's TdF. Fark them all! Thankfully, just because USADA gave them 6 month suspensions, does not mean they will ever race again in Europe. Hopefully every Grand Tour will ban them after UCI gets their admissions. They brought dishonor to a dishonest sport.


That's what kills me about this whole thing. People question the legitimacy of college football titles all the time and they are even vacated after the fact. People question the SB titles of the Pats and the Saints after their scandals. But Armstrong supporters rail against Landis and Hamilton and Contador for doping but are seemingly just fine with Lance's tour wins despite the fact the entire team has admitted to doping. Whether or not you believe Lance did or not - and you have to have your head all the way under the sand at this point - every tour win is grossly tainted at best. George Hincapie was the only guy at his side for all of them and he's fessed up. Console yourself with Lance's personal myth if you want - but without EPO his teams don't win all those tours. It's a team sport and he was drugged up the those hills by a legion of dopers. I'd admire the guy one hell of a lot more if he'd fess up and take his medicine instead of leaving his friends to tell the truth in his stead.
 
2012-08-24 01:47:58 PM  

JohnBigBootay: I'd admire the guy one hell of a lot more if he'd fess up and take his medicine instead of leaving his friends to tell the truth in his stead.


as did Bjarne Riis, i hated him for beating Indurain in 1996,
but he fess'd up to continue his career as a coach, so like him now.
 
2012-08-24 01:53:49 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: cameroncrazy1984: JosephFinn: So he doesn't admit guilt, but just stops fighting the witch hunt. I'm OK with that.

Yes, that's it. He just got tired. A man who clearly won 7 Tour De France titles without help is tired.

That's the ticket.

Without having the evidence, and with all the uncertainty that surrounds each of these cases, I'm not even going to venture an opinion on whether or not he's guilty or innocent of doping.

But that said, I can buy this course of action as legit. I don't know if I do quite yet since I just heard about it, but it's at least plausible to me.

The accusations are never going to stop. He last won the Tour what, seven years ago and he first faced allegations in 1999 and he's still having to answer for it? I can see where a guy would finally be like "Fark it."

I'm not defending him....as I said I don't know all the details regarding all the allegations. But I can see a guy just tiring of pouring piles of money and time down a hole with no end in sight.


I would also like to add that this is NOT a court trial*, but a BINDING ARBITRATION by the USADA who is the judge and jury and had already determined he is guilty.

The real question is, since losing was a foregone conclusion, which would be worse for Lance - quitting and being found guilty or fighting and being found guilty (also without appellate recourse)?

* all of the evidence the USADA had, the feds had and the feds, who would have been bound by court rules, did not have enough to prosecute.
 
2012-08-24 01:57:04 PM  
If you think Lance is innocent, but Barry is guilty, what does that say about you?


expobill: igosplat: Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to.
Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!



Prove he is clean.
 
2012-08-24 02:00:23 PM  

chuggernaught: Prove he is clean.

I don't have to, He rode for Banesto and never doped.
 
2012-08-24 02:11:25 PM  
http://youtu.be/rX7wtNOkuHo
 
2012-08-24 02:14:01 PM  
Fuque the USADA and fuque Travis Tygart. The guy is long retired and they couldn't let it rest. Didn't even have enough evidence to charge him, went by this ridiculously low standard of proof as dictated by this farce of an organization. Basically, it is Floyd Landis, who really was caught cheating, saying, "well yeah, Lance cheated too". They have no hard evidence (i.e. failed drug test), just anecdotes from unscrupulous guys like Landis. Tygart is trying to make a name for himself by taking down Lance Armstrong and if I ever see him on the street, I am going to punch him in the face.
 
2012-08-24 02:14:19 PM  
expobill - Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!

Guess you forgot about Francisco Mancebo role in Operation Puerto and how he was not allowed to start the TdF in 2006 and never raced the TdF again... Doper!

/Victory Torker!
 
2012-08-24 02:15:55 PM  

RedT: The real question is, since losing was a foregone conclusion, which would be worse for Lance - quitting and being found guilty or fighting and being found guilty (also without appellate recourse)?


Fighting and being found guilty. Because then he'd have to endure all of us see experts testify about his old samples checked with new testing methods. And he'd also have to watch four new teammates admit to doping with him including unassailable George Hincapie. That's why he quit - he didn't want us all to see that stuff.

And just stop it with the court recourse stuff. This ain't Perry mason. Contador and Landis and Hamilton and Ullrich didn't get jury trials either. It's a bike race, not a murder trial.
 
2012-08-24 02:17:40 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Fuque the USADA and fuque Travis Tygart. The guy is long retired and they couldn't let it rest. Didn't even have enough evidence to charge him, went by this ridiculously low standard of proof as dictated by this farce of an organization. Basically, it is Floyd Landis, who really was caught cheating, saying, "well yeah, Lance cheated too". They have no hard evidence (i.e. failed drug test), just anecdotes from unscrupulous guys like Landis. Tygart is trying to make a name for himself by taking down Lance Armstrong and if I ever see him on the street, I am going to punch him in the face.


Again, do you truly believe Lance didn't dope, or are you just naive?
 
2012-08-24 02:21:35 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Basically, it is Floyd Landis, who really was caught cheating, saying, "well yeah, Lance cheated too".


Well, that, and Tyler hamilton

and Levi Leipheimer

and Christian Vande Velde

and David Zabriskie

and longtime loyal best friend who rode every tour at his side, George Hincapie

But you go ahead and think of it as sour grapes by a disgraced ex-teammate if you want.
 
2012-08-24 02:26:38 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Pumpernickel bread: Basically, it is Floyd Landis, who really was caught cheating, saying, "well yeah, Lance cheated too".

Well, that, and Tyler hamilton

and Levi Leipheimer

and Christian Vande Velde

and David Zabriskie

and longtime loyal best friend who rode every tour at his side, George Hincapie

But you go ahead and think of it as sour grapes by a disgraced ex-teammate if you want.


I repeat - not enough evidence to take to trial. Had to resort to this tactic years after he retired. It's just a farking witch hunt. Glad to hear Nike is still backing Livestrong.
 
2012-08-24 02:38:22 PM  

igosplat: expobill - Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!

Guess you forgot about Francisco Mancebo role in Operation Puerto and how he was not allowed to start the TdF in 2006 and never raced the TdF


he was linked, everyone cycling from iberia was linked- that did not prove anyone cheated tho.
heck even i was linked in that!
 
2012-08-24 02:38:39 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: I repeat - not enough evidence to take to trial. Had to resort to this tactic years after he retired. It's just a farking witch hunt. Glad to hear Nike is still backing Livestrong.


Do you truly believe he is innocent? As in, a guy who beat cancer was beating guys 10 years younger than him who were doping, while clean?
 
2012-08-24 02:49:54 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: I repeat - not enough evidence to take to trial. .


Don't care. It's a doping organization for sports, not a criminal matter. None of the other guys who've been busted had any more.

Had to resort to this tactic years after he retired.

Don't care. He isn't the first guy busted long after he cheated and he won't be the last. Dirty is dirty. I'd respect him more if he gave an honest statement about what goes on in his sport and on his own team. I'm happy to accept he was the best TDF rider as the whole pelleton was largely doped. Just don't ask me to believe he was riding clean the whole time and dominating all the dopers. For god's sake man the whole team has now admitted to doping except for him - there's not a 'clean' trophy in the bunch.

It's just a farking witch hunt.

It might be wasteful. And it might be unnecessary. But it's only a witch hunt if you are hounding the innocent. Armstrong is dirty.

Glad to hear Nike is still backing Livestrong

Me too. They do some good work - even if it has almost nothing to do with actual cancer research and probably not as much of your money goes to 'charity' as you think.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstro n g/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html
 
2012-08-24 03:07:48 PM  

expobill: igosplat: expobill - Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!

Guess you forgot about Francisco Mancebo role in Operation Puerto and how he was not allowed to start the TdF in 2006 and never raced the TdF again.

he was linked, everyone cycling from iberia was linked- that did not prove anyone cheated tho.
heck even i was linked in that!


Tru dat yo! Damn Ferrari, should have used Porsche... 

/Victory Torker!
 
2012-08-24 03:16:32 PM  
I find it odd that the USADA can find him guilty, but a grand jury didn't find enough evidence to charge him.
 
2012-08-24 03:23:57 PM  
I admit I took PEDs. So farking what? I still won the Tour de France seven times beating other competitors who were also taking PEDs. You think I just stuck a needle in my ass and started winning races? I still had the training regimen of a world class athlete and had to have talent and drive to reach the pinnacle of the sport. And you know what else? I was good at taking PEDs. I pissed into hundreds of little plastic cups and each one came back clean. You think that just happened through luck? No. It took careful planning and practice. I mean, guys get caught ALL THE TIME in our sport and I was NEVER caught. Come to think of it, that's probably even more impressive than winning the TdF seven times. So you all can fark off for all I care. I'm just going to sit back in my enormous house, count my millions, and ponder which actress/model/singer I'm going to fark next. Or maybe I'll fire up the G4 and head to Aspen for the weekend. Either way, go fark yourselves.

Love,
Lance Armstrong
 
2012-08-24 03:31:08 PM  

BGates: I find it odd that the USADA can find him guilty, but a grand jury didn't find enough evidence to charge him.


I for one, am quite content that there's a different level of evidence required by a sports doping agency and the US justice system that can indict any US citizen over criminal matters where the penalty is PMITA prison instead of 'you can't do bike races anymore because we think you cheated'. You'd have it different somehow?
 
2012-08-24 03:32:06 PM  

iamskibibitz: I admit I took PEDs. So farking what? I still won the Tour de France seven times beating other competitors who were also taking PEDs. You think I just stuck a needle in my ass and started winning races? I still had the training regimen of a world class athlete and had to have talent and drive to reach the pinnacle of the sport. And you know what else? I was good at taking PEDs. I pissed into hundreds of little plastic cups and each one came back clean. You think that just happened through luck? No. It took careful planning and practice. I mean, guys get caught ALL THE TIME in our sport and I was NEVER caught. Come to think of it, that's probably even more impressive than winning the TdF seven times. So you all can fark off for all I care. I'm just going to sit back in my enormous house, count my millions, and ponder which actress/model/singer I'm going to fark next. Or maybe I'll fire up the G4 and head to Aspen for the weekend. Either way, go fark yourselves.

Love,
Lance Armstrong


If he'd have the ball to write something like that I'd respect the hell out of him. I might even buy one of those silly bracelets.
 
2012-08-24 03:33:44 PM  

BGates: I find it odd that the USADA can find him guilty, but a grand jury didn't find enough evidence to charge him.


That's because the USADA pretty much makes it up as they go along.

Everyone knows the riders dope, even if we like to pretend they don't. However, the USADA is a day late and a dollar short since it doesn't matter any more. If they tested his B samples (which were supposed to be discarded) and with newer technology they found something that was banned at the time they are just too late. The fact that they went back to test these samples and were busy soliciting testimony from his teammates pretty much proves they're on a witch hunt rather than a quest for justice.

Let him keep his titles and focus on the current riders. Of course, if it reduces the number of those stupid wrist bands then maybe its not a bad thing after all...
 
2012-08-24 03:36:30 PM  
Yeah, but if you're going to say "x is illegal" then come up with a solid method of detecting x or let it go. I know there are agents that can throw off the tests and it is a cat and mouse game to track those as well, but stripping wins from 99-05 seems like it ought to fall outside of some statute of limitations. Set the bar, test to it, and move forward. It won't catch everyone, but if the testing agencies are doing their jobs it should be fair enough. And it's just a bloody sport

So if in 95 you come in second to a guy you know was cheating, you just suck it up and don't cheat too? Do you suck it up the following year? The year after that?

If cheaters are not punished retroactively, what incentive does anyone today have not to cheat as well?
 
2012-08-24 03:44:38 PM  

T-Boy:

Personally, my view is that the races are over for Lance. I don't care if he ever races again, and likely neither does he. He is retired. Close the book and go forward with testing in accordance with today's detection technology. It doesn't do any good to revisit Marco Pantani, Lance Armstrong or any one else. Let it go and move forward.


Um yeah, but Lance was looking to race at the Ironman Championship in Kona this year, and not just show up, but compete. Kinda disappointed we won't see him there.
 
2012-08-24 03:45:59 PM  

machoprogrammer: Pumpernickel bread: I repeat - not enough evidence to take to trial. Had to resort to this tactic years after he retired. It's just a farking witch hunt. Glad to hear Nike is still backing Livestrong.

Do you truly believe he is innocent? As in, a guy who beat cancer was beating guys 10 years younger than him who were doping, while clean?


Inconsequential. Let's say it is true, apparently they were all doing it, so the playing field was level. he didn't have an advantage over anyone else and it doesn't make the accomplishment any less amazing. If they had leveled charges against him as it was going on,*and* had some hard evidence other than some dude said he saw him taking the spike, I could understand and even support stripping the title, but this years after the fact stuff with no hard evidence is just B.S. Some jerkoff just wants to make a name for himself, in his little regulatory circle by taking down Lance.
 
2012-08-24 03:49:57 PM  

sprag: Everyone knows the riders dope, even if we like to pretend they don't.


Agreed. But it's not fair to the busted dopers (to say nothing of the actually clean riders) that the guy who won the most gets off scot free with his legacy intact when he was doing the same damn thing they have been vilified for.

Here's what shocks me - that there are still legions of people happy to believe that this control-freak had all these dopers right under his nose but didn't know it or participate. At best he sucks at his secondary responsibility of running a clean team. It was his team wasn't it? And one by one they've all confessed to cheating? But he didn't? THAT'S what you want me to believe? Like I said before, I believe you could get a guy to lie under oath. I don't for a second believe you could a whole bunch of guys to tell the same lie under oath. Especially when they are simultaneously admitting their own guilt. Landis or Hamilton maybe. (by the way - the crime they have been vilified for is doping, then turning on their employer - why then do you not hold armstrong to the same standard?) Zabriskie and Hincapie too? No farking way. The tooth fairy isn't real either. Agree or disagree with how it went down. Be troubled by the governing body if they bug you. But the question is, 'was armstrong doping?'
 
2012-08-24 03:52:57 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: If they had leveled charges against him as it was going on,*and* had some hard evidence other than some dude said he saw him taking the spike, I could understand and even support stripping the title, but this years after the fact stuff with no hard evidence is just B.S. Some jerkoff just wants to make a name for himself, in his little regulatory circle by taking down Lance.


I suppose you do understand that the reason he quit is he prefers you don't see that evidence. Right? But mostly I think it's Hincapie's testimony. There's not a hardcore cycling fan out there who won't believe George. Lance is trying to make sure you don't get the opportunity.
 
2012-08-24 04:04:58 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Let's say it is true, apparently they were all doing it, so the playing field was level. he didn't have an advantage over anyone else and it doesn't make the accomplishment any less amazing.


Forgot this part... you've got to be kidding me. You don't think that a guy who is doping and beating all the other dopers is any less amazing than the only clean guy in the pelloton beating all the dopers? That's somewhat like thinking Usain Bolt winning the 100m in combat boots was NOT more amazing than doing it when wearing his track shoes. I'll just assume you misspoke. They dope because it works.
 
2012-08-24 04:24:15 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: CommieTaoist: The only thing that the public likes more than a hero is a fallen hero.

The only thing the public likes more than a hero is being the party that makes the hero fall. Everybody hates a winner and they take perverse pride in causing their demise. Public pressure from everybody that just "knew" he was doping, even though he passed every test, something that would require a conspiracy impossible to keep secret as he was the most scrutinized athlete in the world for the better part of a decade, people who somehow took it so personally that he was "getting over" on them, is what caused this. He would be dead or broke before this ended and the result would still have been the same.

It's like when you were a kid and you got grounded for something you didn't do, then because you were tired of being punished you confessed to your non-existent crime only to be punished for lying about it, even though you never did. There's no justice here, and that's what bothers me about the whole thing.


Amen. Somebody told the truth in this one.

// Unfortunately it isn't the USADA
// Armstrong is innocent.
 
2012-08-24 04:27:38 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: IOC already has the USOC on its shiatlist due to the latter pretty much not even giving the Paralympics the regard it usually gives chopped liver.


Nice to see someone else is aware of this. Every time I bring that up at other times I feel like I'm the only person outside of the people involved who knows about it.
 
2012-08-24 04:38:44 PM  

edgesrealm: Adolf Oliver Nipples: CommieTaoist: The only thing that the public likes more than a hero is a fallen hero.

The only thing the public likes more than a hero is being the party that makes the hero fall. Everybody hates a winner and they take perverse pride in causing their demise. Public pressure from everybody that just "knew" he was doping, even though he passed every test, something that would require a conspiracy impossible to keep secret as he was the most scrutinized athlete in the world for the better part of a decade, people who somehow took it so personally that he was "getting over" on them, is what caused this. He would be dead or broke before this ended and the result would still have been the same.

It's like when you were a kid and you got grounded for something you didn't do, then because you were tired of being punished you confessed to your non-existent crime only to be punished for lying about it, even though you never did. There's no justice here, and that's what bothers me about the whole thing.

Amen. Somebody told the truth in this one.

// Unfortunately it isn't the USADA
// Armstrong is innocent.


Right. Lance Armstrong and his Gulfstream IV, well known to be worth north of 100 million dollars, was gonna be rendered broke by the legal bills from an arbitration hearing. What's the punch line?
 
2012-08-24 04:53:15 PM  

edgesrealm: Amen. Somebody told the truth in this one.

// Unfortunately it isn't the USADA
// Armstrong is innocent.


lol you REALLY believe he wasn't doping? You really think that a guy, in his mid 30s, who had suffered cancer and lost a testicle, could beat guys who were in their mid 20s, who were doping and who trained just as hard as he did with just as good genetics, while not doping? Do you still believe in Santa Clause, too?
 
2012-08-24 04:57:21 PM  

chuggernaught: If you think Lance is innocent, but Barry is guilty, what does that say about you?


expobill: igosplat: Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to.
Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!


Prove he is clean.


He got tested 500 times, and was clean. Barry Bonds? Once...and because the MLBPA will get their panties in a bunch, those results will never be revealed.
 
2012-08-24 05:01:14 PM  

machoprogrammer: edgesrealm: Amen. Somebody told the truth in this one.

// Unfortunately it isn't the USADA
// Armstrong is innocent.

lol you REALLY believe he wasn't doping? You really think that a guy, in his mid 30s, who had suffered cancer and lost a testicle, could beat guys who were in their mid 20s, who were doping and who trained just as hard as he did with just as good genetics, while not doping? Do you still believe in Santa Clause, too?


No that movie sucked.
 
2012-08-24 05:14:47 PM  

Rwa2play: Barry Bonds? Once...and because the MLBPA will get their panties in a bunch, those results will never be revealed.


For those who don't know, Bonds has admitted to taking PED's. He just claims he didn't know what they were. And Landis and Hamilton also passed many a drug test. All but one in point of fact. Ullrich never tested positive either did he? Also, the four new guys who rolled, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, and Hincapie (among others) haven't failed any tests. They just have a little more integrity than one-nut.
 
2012-08-24 05:15:32 PM  

machoprogrammer: lol you REALLY believe he wasn't doping? You really think that a guy, in his mid 30s, who had suffered cancer and lost a testicle, could beat guys who were in their mid 20s, who were doping and who trained just as hard as he did with just as good genetics, while not doping? Do you still believe in Santa Clause, too?


His last victory was at 33 (he was probably still doping). Endurance athletes seem to hit their peak a little later than sprinters for whatever reason, so that's not really that old.
 
2012-08-24 05:18:40 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Ullrich never tested positive either did he?


I believe Ullrich failed a test for ecstasy or something like it. I'm not sure if he ever failed a test for more, um, conventional PEDs.
 
2012-08-24 05:31:21 PM  

Rwa2play: chuggernaught: If you think Lance is innocent, but Barry is guilty, what does that say about you?


expobill: igosplat: Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to.
Fran Mancebo finished 4th in 2000, and 2005 and is CLEAN!
/viva Banesto!


Prove he is clean.

He got tested 500 times, and was clean. Barry Bonds? Once...and because the MLBPA will get their panties in a bunch, those results will never be revealed.


1. Lance Armstrong was never tested 500 times.
2. There are 38 samples from 2009-2010 TdFs that Armstrong competed in that are consistent with blood doping, and a 2001 sample that is consistent with EPO usage from the Tour de Suisse.

Please put this truly stupid argument to rest.
 
2012-08-24 05:36:29 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Pumpernickel bread: If they had leveled charges against him as it was going on,*and* had some hard evidence other than some dude said he saw him taking the spike, I could understand and even support stripping the title, but this years after the fact stuff with no hard evidence is just B.S. Some jerkoff just wants to make a name for himself, in his little regulatory circle by taking down Lance.

I suppose you do understand that the reason he quit is he prefers you don't see that evidence. Right? But mostly I think it's Hincapie's testimony. There's not a hardcore cycling fan out there who won't believe George. Lance is trying to make sure you don't get the opportunity.


He let it go because (a) he knew it was a kangaroo court that would string him up with minimal evidence, so it was pointless to go down that road and (b) Livestrong had apparently secured the backing of Nike regardless of what happened here. This accusation never got to see the actual inside of a courtroom due to lack of evidence. And for the record, while I don't watch cycling as it is painfully boring, I am a cyclist. I've ridden my Cannondale literally from coast to coast and in a couple of Ironmans. You really seem to be relishing this. Are you French?
 
2012-08-24 05:42:40 PM  

you have pee hands: I believe Ullrich failed a test for ecstasy or something like it. I'm not sure if he ever failed a test for more, um, conventional PEDs.


I don't think he failed a test - it's sort of like the armstrong thing, he was found guilty by the court of arbitration for sport after being linked to Operation Puerto and PED's. they actually raided his house for DNA. And in a similar vein he was retroactively stripped of all titles and banned (see, armstrong people, it ain't like Lance is getting some horrible treatment no one else ever got). I don't think he's ever admitted it verbatim, but he has apologized for his link with some doping doctor and said he made 'mistakes'. Whereas Lance has been linked with some doping doctor as well - two actually, as well as a trainer, but can't seem to bring himself to put on the big boy pants and tell the truth.
 
2012-08-24 05:47:21 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: You really seem to be relishing this. Are you French?


Enjoying, no. Been expecting it for a long time, yes. And why do people keep perpetuating this odd French thing? They have actually been quite supportive of Armstrong. It's quite a large country you know. Sort of odd to lump an entire country into the same basket because of one of their magazines. You know that Armstrong and the president of france are big personal buddies, right?
 
2012-08-24 05:58:59 PM  

Errk: Just another liar....


Which one?
 
rka
2012-08-24 06:00:38 PM  

JohnBigBootay: Ullrich never tested positive either did he?


And his case is just as much of a farce as Armstrong's.

He gets kicked off of T-Mobile for essentially nothing other than the hysteria of "getting rid of dopers" that gripped cycling a few years back and the words of some doping expert that claimed that he was buying some absurd amounts of doping products every year. A claim that was never backed up by anyone. They kick 5 Astana riders out over the same thing (including Contador)...all of whom were subsequently pardoned. Spain dropped any and all cases against Ulrich, the IOC didn't find anything, he settled his case as "not guilty" in Germany. The Swiss dropped their case because Ulrich no longer raced under a Swiss license so the UCI appeals. And then finally, 4-5 years later the CAS finds him guilty...of??? Who knows? Who cares? Let's retroactively strip him of everything.

Justice is certainly not high on the list of priorities for these anti-doping bodies.

But here's the kicker. In Ulrich's case it was the UCI itself that was going after him, at least there is some basis to deal with any races under the UCI umbrella. In Armstrong's case the UCI is on his side.
 
2012-08-24 06:02:07 PM  

expobill: chuggernaught: Prove he is clean.
I don't have to, He rode for Banesto and never doped.




He rode Banesto is not good enough. According to the USADA there's a culture of doping in cycling, and getting even base circumstantial evidence is damning to the point of a life ban. Clean results on available tests are no longer acceptable per this new precedent. So again: Prove he is clean.



Rwa2play:
He got tested 500 times, and was clean. Barry Bonds? Once...and because the MLBPA will get their panties in a bunch, those results will never be revealed.



Oh, I like this. Will have to remember for future discussions and see how it plays out.


jekostas:

1. Lance Armstrong was never tested 500 times.



Yeah, been following this all day. ESPN and Fox news radio both reporting 500 clean tests; CNN and NPR reporting hundreds of clean tests (they did not mention a specific number). One mention was on NPR in a question to Travis T. with the USADA and he did not refute the statement. So should I go with multiple reporting news agencies, or random dude on the web? If you have a source, I'd check it out.
 
2012-08-24 06:04:41 PM  
Just put an asterisk by his records, like Barry Bonds. Worked for Cooperstown.
 
2012-08-24 06:17:27 PM  

rka: He gets kicked off of T-Mobile for essentially nothing other than the hysteria of "getting rid of dopers" that gripped cycling a few years back


Yet they have a positive DNA match to blood bags taken from Dr. Dopers office and he apologized and all but admits he was guilty. Sort of a Mark McGwire style thing. Do you actually doubt he was dirty?
 
2012-08-24 06:28:35 PM  

Gleeman: Just put an asterisk by his records, like Barry Bonds. Worked for Cooperstown.


Here's what's weird. Both Bonds and Clemens seem to have more fight than Mr. Armstrong, and they were fighting the actual feds. Bonds mostly won and Clemens got a complete acquittal. And just so you know, Armstromng could have sued had he lost his arbitration. Unfortunately the most litigious man in america (except for the dry cleaner guy I guess) didn't seem to like his chances in court ball the sudden..
 
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