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(Sports Illustrated) NewsFlash Lance Armstrong's time in France rubs off as he surrenders to U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, loses Tour titles   (sportsillustrated.cnn.com) divider line 523
    More: NewsFlash, United States Anti-Doping Agency, United States, International Cycling Union, Floyd Landis, U.S. Agent, Tour de France, blood doping, EPO  
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4119 clicks; posted to Sports » on 23 Aug 2012 at 11:10 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-08-24 09:57:28 AM  

JWideman: I have just one question: whether he doped or not, why should I give a fark?


Because all of humanity's other ills have been cured, and all of its atrocities repented, so this is literally the last thing in the world to be outraged about. No, really.
 
2012-08-24 10:02:07 AM  

Marine1: mechgreg: Marine1: So, this guy wins 7 tours, they find little evidence against him, and improperly run an investigation.

Innocent. Whether or not he did, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. They failed to do so.

Why beyond a reasonable doubt? It is not like he is in a criminal trial and he will go to jail if found guilty.

Because it's his freakin' life's work and reputation.


Which means he knew the rules going in, how they were investigated, and how this kind of thing would be handled. I mean with my company I know that they can fire me with cause for certain things, and there won't be any kind of trial or evidence beyond a reasonable doubt given. If you are doing something at an elite level you should know exactly how the rules are applied before you start competing.
 
2012-08-24 10:03:03 AM  
Tour de France titles for Ullrich, Basso, Kloden, Beloki, and Zulle, who all certainly have never been caught taking drugs.

Cycling is hilarious.
 
2012-08-24 10:08:54 AM  

mechgreg: Marine1: mechgreg: Marine1: So, this guy wins 7 tours, they find little evidence against him, and improperly run an investigation.

Innocent. Whether or not he did, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. They failed to do so.

Why beyond a reasonable doubt? It is not like he is in a criminal trial and he will go to jail if found guilty.

Because it's his freakin' life's work and reputation.

Which means he knew the rules going in, how they were investigated, and how this kind of thing would be handled. I mean with my company I know that they can fire me with cause for certain things, and there won't be any kind of trial or evidence beyond a reasonable doubt given. If you are doing something at an elite level you should know exactly how the rules are applied before you start competing.


Firing and stripping you of everything you ever did at that company are a little different, don't you think?
 
2012-08-24 10:09:42 AM  
all cyclists dope
 
2012-08-24 10:14:44 AM  
Keeping up the ruse for so long was nuts.
 
2012-08-24 10:14:57 AM  
I hope all those self-righteous people with their "Livestrong" bracelets are happy
 
2012-08-24 10:25:24 AM  
Heard this discussion on The Ticket (local sports station) this morning. The host (Junior) may be mistaken, he said only two entities have the right to strip Armstrong's titles: the UCI (which has always been in Lance's corner and therefore won't do it) and the Tour de France itself. And the Tour has no incentive to strip Lance of seven titles because the two runner-ups each year have either tested positive or admitted to using drugs.
 
2012-08-24 10:28:54 AM  
Actually, no. The USADA has no authority to strip anyone of tehir TDF titles. He's never failed a test (passed 500 or more) & this is an arbitration hearing, not a trial. There's quite a big difference between the two.

And what? Strip Armstrong of his Tour Titles & elevate the #2 finishers? Sorry, but those cyclists failed tests & are are known dopers.

Okay, we'll give those titles to the #3 finishers, right? Not so fast. They are known dopers, too.

Did Armstrong use some sort of PED? Probably so, but you have to PROVE IT.
 
2012-08-24 10:31:34 AM  

4NSpy: Sports talk radio is going to bust a nut over this news.


Imagine the kind of asshole that actually listens to that crap?
 
2012-08-24 10:31:56 AM  
None of them ride clean. He was still the best tour cyclist at the time.
 
2012-08-24 10:36:39 AM  

Blue_Blazer: I hope all those self-righteous people with their "Livestrong" bracelets are happy


Indeed. How dare they support overcoming odds like cancer and other diseases to become healthy and do great things with their lives? The sheer audacity of those people makes me want to foam at the mouth and bite someone.
 
2012-08-24 10:37:13 AM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: Over 500 clean tests, and Hincapie and Landis were going to be poor sports (ie losers) and claim he cheated, but with no evidence. It's like asking if Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990. NO EVIDENCE.

It's probably pretty expensive to continue with this witch hunt. He shouldn't have to deplete his life's savings just because they were NEVER going to stop.


You really think he is innocent?
 
2012-08-24 10:39:35 AM  

atlfarkette: None of them ride clean. He was still the best tour DE FRANCE cyclist at the
time.


Fixed. There's some other grand tours. They been racing them a long time too. Just so you know there's more bike races than the one you know about.
 
2012-08-24 10:43:03 AM  
O.K., laymens question here, if everyone in the sport is cheating, why does anyone pay any attention to it?
 
2012-08-24 10:49:34 AM  

cantsleep: O.K., laymens question here, if everyone in the sport is cheating, why does anyone pay any attention to it?


More people paid attention to the perception and idea of a clean, cancer-surviving and ass-kicking Lance Armstrong than the sport itself. I'm not sure 70% of his biggest supporters have actually watched a sizable amount of the Tour de France, let alone the Tour de Botswana or whatever other goodamn events there are in cycling that largely no one domestically is even aware of.
 
2012-08-24 10:49:53 AM  
A lot of people seem to not know that this was a guy that rode a thriathlon when he was 15, and beat the champions at it: video.

/DNRTWT
 
2012-08-24 10:51:11 AM  

cantsleep: O.K., laymens question here, if everyone in the sport is cheating, why does anyone pay any attention to it?


Because, regardless of the doping, It is an incredible test of endurance.
 
2012-08-24 10:53:42 AM  

atlfarkette: None of them ride clean. He was still the best tour cyclist at the time.


That's another point of view; we've had a big cycling cheater in our country (Johan Museeuw), but what the guy did is still considered phenomenal, doping or not.
 
2012-08-24 10:56:44 AM  
Wouldn't the statute of limitations come into play here?
 
2012-08-24 11:01:27 AM  

Science_Guy_3.14159: Wouldn't the statute of limitations come into play here?


Don't know if that would apply to a civil case in France.

I think Lance has an Olympic time trial medal or two, I wonder if the IOC will go after him.
 
2012-08-24 11:02:55 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: JosephFinn: So he doesn't admit guilt, but just stops fighting the witch hunt. I'm OK with that.

Yes, that's it. He just got tired. A man who clearly won 7 Tour De France titles without help is tired.

That's the ticket.

 
2012-08-24 11:03:14 AM  
They just awarded an Olympic gold medal to a guy who got his entire team kicked out of the Tour, so who cares?
 
2012-08-24 11:05:47 AM  

Dheiner: cantsleep: O.K., laymens question here, if everyone in the sport is cheating, why does anyone pay any attention to it?

Because, regardless of the doping, It is an incredible test of endurance.


In my view, the doping negates that.
I understand the appeal of watching people who have worked hard and made themselves into superior athletes, people who have taken the time and effort to become the best version of what genetics has given them. Using artificial enhancement to become more than what nature gave them does not appeal to me.
Goes for any sport, and is one of the reasons I've pretty much gave up on watching "sports".
 
2012-08-24 11:15:39 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So they have no positive drug tests, they aren't in charge of the Tour, but they want to strip him of the titles. Uh ok.


Exactly; this is starting to sound like something out of Arthur Miller's "The Crucible."
 
2012-08-24 11:19:47 AM  

Rev.K: Man up, Lance. Man the f*ck up and admit it. You know it, we know it. You're going to lose the titles anyway, if you want to be petty and not say anything out of spite, that's your choice, but you're going to be a title-less nobody and we all know why.




Man up Rev. K we know you like to rape 9 year old boys, even though you have never been caught and no 9 year old boy has ever come forward to accuse you. We have the confession of a man who rapes 9 year old boys that you and him used to rape 9 year old boys together. Just because we are giving this man a lighter sentence then you for his confession does not mean his confession is being coerced or paid for in any way.

No, just man up and admit you like to rape 9 year old boys.
 
2012-08-24 11:22:08 AM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: Over 500 clean tests, and Hincapie and Landis were going to be poor sports (ie losers) and claim he cheated, but with no evidence. It's like asking if Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990. NO EVIDENCE.

It's probably pretty expensive to continue with this witch hunt. He shouldn't have to deplete his life's savings just because they were NEVER going to stop.


Lance is worth approximately $125 Million. He can afford to have his attorneys carry on the fight. It would be expensive, but it wouldn't be a kick in the nut expensive.
 
2012-08-24 11:24:38 AM  
Of course, USADA's own rules have an eight year statute of limitations.

So I guess vacate 2004 and 2005, and Lance is only a five-time winner.
 
2012-08-24 11:25:00 AM  
On behalf of all Americans, I'd just like to thank USADA and WADA for turning the sport of cycling back to what it always was: an afterthought in the consciousness of American sport.
 
rka
2012-08-24 11:26:07 AM  

you have pee hands: Don't know if that would apply to a civil case in France.


What does France have to do with anything?

The USADA is the body going after Armstrong. They're a US organization.

They have nothing to do with the UCI, the TdF or France for that matter. Their *actual* stated/funded job is to test US Olympic, ParaOlympic and Pan American athletes. They've also assumed US authority over athletes that compete under a US National Governing Body, so I guess that's where they think they can get Armstrong. If he wants to ride for a cycling sport that has a National Governing Body he has to adhere to their standards. The NFL does not abide by the USADA, neither do any of the other pro leagues in the US. MLB, nope, NBA, nope. MLS, nope.

Only the UCI can strip Lance of his TdF titles though. Not the USADA. UCI decides their own punishments and runs their own anti-doping program.
 
2012-08-24 11:32:07 AM  
It's all a bunch of bullshiat.

I'm going for a ride.
 
2012-08-24 11:36:12 AM  

rka: They have nothing to do with the UCI, the TdF or France for that matter. Their *actual* stated/funded job is to test US Olympic, ParaOlympic and Pan American athletes. They've also assumed US authority over athletes that compete under a US National Governing Body, so I guess that's where they think they can get Armstrong. If he wants to ride for a cycling sport that has a National Governing Body he has to adhere to their standards. The NFL does not abide by the USADA, neither do any of the other pro leagues in the US. MLB, nope, NBA, nope. MLS, nope.


They must be trying to get someone else who can take away previous titles/accolades to take another look. Otherwise, what's the point? Dude's over 40. Barring him from competition now is pretty meaningless.
 
2012-08-24 11:38:24 AM  

Atomic Spunk: CommieTaoist: I don't really care but there still has been no clear evidence that he doped, the only thing they have is Landis who is hardly an impartial witness..

no, they have a lot more witnesses than just Landis. Tyler Hamilton gave a scathing interview on 60 minutes. They also have several other witnesses who came forward as well.


what i don't get is how competing teammates could be reliable witnesses at all. wouldn't he be smart enough do his doping in private away from teammates' eyes?
 
2012-08-24 11:42:55 AM  

wookiee cookie: Atomic Spunk: CommieTaoist: I don't really care but there still has been no clear evidence that he doped, the only thing they have is Landis who is hardly an impartial witness..

no, they have a lot more witnesses than just Landis. Tyler Hamilton gave a scathing interview on 60 minutes. They also have several other witnesses who came forward as well.

what i don't get is how competing teammates could be reliable witnesses at all. wouldn't he be smart enough do his doping in private away from teammates' eyes?


Not just that: Lance was once at death's door due to Cancer. Unless you love playing Russian Roulette, I can't think of anyone that would try to put some type of chemical in their body fully knowing that their immune system could be compromised and allowing big C to come back more aggressive than before.
 
rka
2012-08-24 11:47:11 AM  

you have pee hands: They must be trying to get someone else who can take away previous titles/accolades to take another look. Otherwise, what's the point? Dude's over 40. Barring him from competition now is pretty meaningless.


The USADA contends that since they are a signatory to the World Anti-Doping agreement and that UCI is also a signatory that if the USADA says jump the UCI has to ask "How high".

The UCI rightly disagrees with this opinion.
 
2012-08-24 11:49:15 AM  

crotchgrabber: It's all a bunch of bullshiat.

I'm going for a ride.


why? Lance never pedaled in August.
 
2012-08-24 11:51:28 AM  
"THEY'RE ALL JUST JEALOUS HATERS!!! ALL OF THEM!!!"
 
2012-08-24 11:55:58 AM  

WhyteRaven74: LeMond rode a 54x12 almost the whole way, that's 54 teeth in the chain ring up front and 12 for the gear in back. He did shift as he came up the Champs Elysees to an easier gear, 54x13. By way of comparison a regular road bike you can get at a local bike shop might have a top gear of 50x14 or if it's a bit more performance oriented 52x12, and while it doesn't seam like there's much different between a 50x14 and a 54x12, there's a good amount of difference. Also the average mere mortal will have their quads begging for mercy if they tried to really push a 54x12.


My road bike, which is at the entry level SRAM Apex set up, is 50/34 front, 11-32 rear. 50x11 is hard enough for me to pedal on flat road, and if I was in more beast mode I could have gotten a 53 up front. Doing hills on a double front cog is enough of a pain, hence the 32 rear (where most bike have a 28-30.)
 
2012-08-24 12:04:28 PM  
theurge14 SmartestFunniest 2012-08-24 10:36:39 AM


Blue_Blazer: I hope all those self-righteous people with their "Livestrong" bracelets are happy

Indeed. How dare they support overcoming odds like cancer and other diseases to become healthy and do great things with their lives? The sheer audacity of those people makes me want to foam at the mouth and bite someone.




I know. I never cease to be inspired by the courage of people who raise money to fight the disease that they have.
 
2012-08-24 12:14:54 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: whatshisname: cameroncrazy1984: A man who clearly won 7 Tour De France titles without help is tired.

You don't win the Tour de France without help.

Alright, if you want to be pedantic: "without drugs"


Do they have proof he was using performance enhancers? I mean, besides a bunch of sour-grapes teammates and allegations from an agency so anti-dope they CALL themselves the Anti-Doping Agency? Armstrong passed every test he was ever given after the Tours, and there is NO EVIDENCE except some people saying they know he did it, years after the fact. Are there any dirty urine tests? Any evidence he was using steroids prior to getting cancer? No.

This is evil and wrong, and I can't believe they're doing it. I guess next up they strip Phelps of his gold medals because we know he smokes weed; and retroactively change the results of all World Series games where players who were later found to be doping were playing in those games.
 
2012-08-24 12:17:49 PM  

WhyteRaven74: DrySocket: Part of the evidence against Lance says that the UCI helped Lance cover up a positive EPO test from 2001

I've heard that, yet seen nothing released.


If it turns out the UCI DID help cover up a positive--this gets suddenly much bigger than Lance Armstrong, as in "there may be a non-negligible chance the IOC is going to be giving a VERY hairy eye to the US Olympic Team in Rio" big. (UCI also enforces anti-doping regs in Olympic competition, and the IOC already has the USOC on its shiatlist due to the latter pretty much not even giving the Paralympics the regard it usually gives chopped liver.)
 
2012-08-24 12:29:31 PM  
Hmm, it does seem like this mess makes cycling look like nothing but a joke. Its a shame that it looks like whatever proof the anti-doping agency had wont be released since Armstrong gave up. I still don't know what to make of it, but cycling has certainly been damaged greatly. Suppose it was building up to this, but still.
 
2012-08-24 12:41:47 PM  

bbfreak: Hmm, it does seem like this mess makes cycling look like nothing but a joke. Its a shame that it looks like whatever proof the anti-doping agency had wont be released since Armstrong gave up. I still don't know what to make of it, but cycling has certainly been damaged greatly. Suppose it was building up to this, but still.


No this does not, surprisingly, the sport has a lot of talented clean riders and the completion is incredible this season, perhaps the best ever!
I think more MLB players were suspended than UCI this year.
 
2012-08-24 12:46:04 PM  
I guess we can all go to Greg LeMond. He raced in the 80's. No way anyone was doping then. *sarcasm* This is what pisses me off about the whole thing. People have been using performance enhancing drugs since at LEAST the 60's. They didnt have the crazy testing then like they do now, and in a lot of cases it wasnt even against the rules, so more than likely tons of athletes were doing it. Everyone loves to vilify the modern guys but they totally give all the guys of yesteryear a pass and still act like they are heroes. People will always do whatever they can to get an edge in sports. McGwire, Bonds, Armstrong, these guys are just punching bags for the losers who never had a chance to compete at that level to begin with anyways.
 
2012-08-24 12:52:08 PM  

fonebone77: I People will always do whatever they can to get an edge in sports. McGwire, Bonds, Armstrong, these guys are just punching bags for the losers who never had a chance to compete at that level to begin with anyways.

then there are some cyclist who were clean and suffered to climb with those who transfused blood before a major category climb, hopefully they can get some glory that they deserve now!
and Lance was not the only rider who is being punished, has any heard of the Operación Puerto doping case?
 
2012-08-24 01:09:24 PM  

Your Average Witty Fark User: Over 500 clean tests, and Hincapie and Landis were going to be poor sports (ie losers) and claim he cheated,


You forgot a whole bunch of other guys. You can gloss over Landis as having an axe to grind. I suppose you can discount Hamilton if you want. But now you have four more teammates coming forward. Including Hincapie, Armstrong's chief super domestique for all seven tours and most trusted ally. Do you really think it's that easy to get all these people to tell the same lie - even as they were incriminating themselves? Please. At some point you just have to accept it. One by one Lance throws them under the bus to keep his good name. The whole statement was simply a calculated effort on his behalf so he didn't have to face his accusers/testimony/evidence at the arbitration hearing. What kills me is Lance eviscerated all these guys in the press but still has defenders who somehow excuse him for the exact same shiat they criticize the witnesses for. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I believe you could convince a buddy to tell a lie to save your neck. I don't think you could convince ten buddies to tell the same lie. George Hincapie would rather gouge his eyes out than hurt Lance Armstrong but he obviously drew the line at lying under oath and I don't blame him one bit. You can argue it's a waste of time. You can argue jurisdiction and good work for cancer. You can argue that everyone else was doing it. But what Lance has been selling, the one clean guy on tour kicking the dirty dopers butts, is a myth.
 
2012-08-24 01:15:38 PM  
JohnBigBootay
excellent! (got my vote)
and that is why Lance and company did not appeal, he knows he has a strong following and will continue to make a ton of money. This seems to me that the the masses think the USADA is to blame, and that is the game plan. I don't know anyone on that assn, but know who lance is.
 
2012-08-24 01:18:06 PM  
If he is innocent, which is very likely, considering how long they have been trying to nail him, I hope that after they damage him by stripping him of his titles, etc., and promotional opportunities, that he is is a real position to sue the committee for damages.

Up to now it has only been suspicion by the committee, which can't be translated into real dollars. However if they strip him of his winnings, then it becomes something that is concrete and can be calculated.

That means he can sue in a real court. have a real trial, and have the case heard by a real judge and jury where the person is assumed to be innocent until proved guilty. If he is innocent I hope he takes them for all that they have got! If not, we will all know the truth based on evidence, not on innuendo.
 
2012-08-24 01:23:33 PM  
Many people have commented on there is no one to give the 7 titles to. This is true, every one of the top 5 from those 7 victories have been caught doping. Now we add every American cyclist since Andy Hampsten. The 10 US riders from Lance's teams have now admitted they doped and received 6 months suspensions instead of 2 years. That means a personal favorite George Hincapie is now an admitted doper. No wonder he was able to lead out NoNuts up the mountains and no wonder he announced his retirement after the article came out exposing them during this year's TdF. Fark them all! Thankfully, just because USADA gave them 6 month suspensions, does not mean they will ever race again in Europe. Hopefully every Grand Tour will ban them after UCI gets their admissions. They brought dishonor to a dishonest sport.
 
2012-08-24 01:25:48 PM  
There is actual evidence that Armstrong doped. I recall from a couple of years ago a situation where rider samples had been saved and were retested years later using new technology. The problem was that, under the rules at the time of the races, the samples were to be either discarded after the races, or they could be retained for research purposes but the key to tying any particular sample to any particular rider was not to be retained. The samples were kept, as was the identification information. They went back and tested old Armstrong samples with new technology and found direct evidence of doping.

My belief is that everyone was doping just beyond the limits of the detection technology. I tend to believe those people who have said this for years. The sport was not clean, but at least it was fair. With everyone pushing their red blood levels to the same cut off ratios, they all had as equal a chance to success as each other. The final results had more to do with strategy and preparation. Lance has always said he tested clean and that he played within the rules at the time. These statements are both true. They also confirm that he doped in the same manner as everyone else who tested "clean." Again, the difference between the riders came down to preparation, training and organization.

Personally, my view is that the races are over for Lance. I don't care if he ever races again, and likely neither does he. He is retired. Close the book and go forward with testing in accordance with today's detection technology. It doesn't do any good to revisit Marco Pantani, Lance Armstrong or any one else. Let it go and move forward.
 
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