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(The Atlantic)   Feminist progress now largely depends on the hookup culture, and it is women who are perpetuating the culture. For college girls, an overly serious suitor is like an accidental pregnancy; a danger that can get in the way of a promising future   (theatlantic.com) divider line 134
    More: Interesting, Feminist progress, Tucker Max, sexual freedom, sexual revolution, Title IX, feminists, acting out, Kathleen Bogle  
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8723 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Aug 2012 at 9:45 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-23 10:24:14 PM  
I think we're quickly heading to a point (if we haven't passed it already) where we need to have to have a serious conversation about empowering boys and men to the same degree we do for girls and women. The cultural stereotype of today for relationships is the juvenile man-child and the savvy, independent woman who makes him grow up into a respectable adult. There'll be a day when all of these 30-something, casual sex loving, career women are sitting around a table wondering why all the men are still playing Xbox and drinking milk out of the carton.

It would be deeply ironic (but amusing) if feminism ended up reversing the traditional roles completely, and "good" men became the scarce resource in the relationship marketplace. Would at least be an interesting experiment to see what happens when women have to work for it and men have their pick of the litter.
 
2012-08-23 10:27:08 PM  

GhostFish: taurusowner: MorePeasPlease: "It was empowering, to have that kind of control," she recalls. "Guys were texting and calling me all the time, and I was turning them down. I really enjoyed it! I had these options to hook up if I wanted them, and no one would judge me for it."


THAT is the heart of the issue. They enjoy the attention, the feeling of being better than the men because they know they are on the pedestal and call the shots. That's all this really comes down to. It's not even really about the sex, or relationships or lack of. College girls figured out that they way they can obtain the most attention and control is by acting like this.

What issue? Are they doing anything illegal? Is it demonstrably harmful to society? Or are they just enjoying the freedom to act like pigs, just like men?

That's the real win of feminism. Women are free to do what they want and behave how they want within the confines of the law. They are not required to be lesser or greater than men. They are not required to take the moral high road because of the past injustices done to their sex that should have somehow taught them to be the better person.

They are simply free to be people, and engage in all the disgusting and wonderful possibilities that entails.


No its bad because they're getting laid more than taurusowner.
 
2012-08-23 10:27:34 PM  

taurusowner: MorePeasPlease: "It was empowering, to have that kind of control," she recalls. "Guys were texting and calling me all the time, and I was turning them down. I really enjoyed it! I had these options to hook up if I wanted them, and no one would judge me for it."


THAT is the heart of the issue. They enjoy the attention, the feeling of being better than the men because they know they are on the pedestal and call the shots. That's all this really comes down to. It's not even really about the sex, or relationships or lack of. College girls figured out that they way they can obtain the most attention and control is by acting like this.


Ahahaha. You sound old. Girl enjoys the privilege that girls have always enjoyed, gets a rush out of it, goes on with life. Guys vie for her attention, get a rush out of it, go on with life. Circle of life, man, circle of life.
 
2012-08-23 10:28:59 PM  

Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: skilbride: I slept with a ton of guys in college but it had nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with the fact that I like sex.

We need a number please. Short ton? Long ton? Metric ton (tonne)?


Pretty sure the number your looking for is "a farkton."
 
2012-08-23 10:29:13 PM  

vudukungfu: What's your major?

Psychology.
Daddy issues. Fark me now and leave me alone. Me so horney.

Abnormal Phyche.
Do me in the ass handcuffed. I'll write a paper about it later.

History.
I'll stalk you and boil you bunnies.

Child Psychology.
Seriously farked up. Run.

What's yours?
Intriguing. Ask another question.

Computer science and working on an MBA in corporate law.
Keeper.

Culinary Science.
Make me a sammich Imma brag about to my homies.


Heh, I hadn't thought about it before now, but I pretty much always end up with girls that are psychology majors. But then again I'm kind of a mess.
 
2012-08-23 10:29:30 PM  
img1.fark.net
 
2012-08-23 10:32:26 PM  
I wonder if all this empowerment helps explain why middle-aged women suicide rates have spiked up.


/men's rates are higher, but hell, we also have much lower life expectancies but nobody gives a f*** since it's supposed to be all our fault because of bad habits
 
2012-08-23 10:33:25 PM  

PonceAlyosha: This is true. Even my unattractive female friends juggle two or three boys at a time. It seems to me that it may be men who are the naturally monogamous ones.


Hm I'm not sure about naturally. But in a nation of laws and social norms, I think that's correct. Instinct based off the old "spread your seed" early man style of life may move us in one direction, but modern society plays out entirely different. We now live in a world where women are not given away in arranged marriages or won over by the strongest man in the tribe. And they can't be just taken by the man because he's stronger and wants to. A woman's affections have to be won through attraction on her terms, and they all know it. This is why men "have to" by women drinks at the bar, pay for the first few dates, etc. The control has flowed to the female. They know it and love it.

This in turn gives women the option to juggle multiple men. They can get away with it because they know each man is competing against the others. Even if the woman is sleeping with one/more/all of them, they all still need to work to get her to pay attention to them. You see this dynamic with a lot of the very hot college girls who keep almost an entourage of dudes they've friendzoned. An handful of guys they flirt with just enough to keep around who will always shower them with attention, compliments, be willing to do little favors for them, and buy them as many drinks at the bar. And as long as the girl puts her hand on them in the right way or drunkenly kisses them one night, they stay locked in that trap. If the friendzoned guy starts to figure it out and stray away, it just takes one drunken "You are soo special to me _____, I'm sooo glad I have you. You are such a sweet guy" followed by a drunk kiss and a "We really shouldn't...we're such good friends" to keep him thinking that next time he'll finally win her over.
The same goes for women who decide to actually sleep with the "alpha males" of her group. They guys want sex and pretty much don't care that she's hooking up with other guys. The girls love the attention and the feeling of being able to cut off sex if she doesn't get her way. And she can do this with multiple guys at any time.

Both men and women enjoy sex. The group with the power and control is the one who enjoys as much sex as they want while the other just deals with it. It used to be men with the control, hence the stereotypical guy with lots of partners. Now it's switched to the woman having the control, and they have ditched monogamy in turn.
 
2012-08-23 10:34:05 PM  

GhostFish: Who the fark has time to seriously date while taking classes and possibly also working? Relationships take time and organization that is not easily attained while in school.


Well, I have not checked the stats lately, but, it would seem a lot of students at byu get married, or so i have heard.... Not that byu is a hotbed of feminism of course, but still
 
2012-08-23 10:35:00 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: No its bad because they're getting laid more than taurusowner.



It's as if you're reading my mind.


farm5.staticflickr.com
 
2012-08-23 10:35:59 PM  
I'm 27 and in about a year I will finally be done with college. But the reletionship angle for me was influenced by my grandmother and other older women who frequently tell me I have enough time to get married, don't bother with reletionships now. This and also I'm a bit of a commitment phobe. Though it does not help if the guy wants me to go out of state to meet his parents after the our second date. :/
 
2012-08-23 10:36:37 PM  
"pick of the litter" No, I've turned down my share of beautiful, sexy women. Chemistry!

ie: You're built like a brick shiathouse, but your personality/batshiat crazy/bipolar ain't worth your cooch!
I don't care if milks two quarts!
 
2012-08-23 10:45:10 PM  
Wife of Bath played the field--at least by her society's standards 

and she was broad in the beam, fo' realzzz!
 
2012-08-23 10:46:48 PM  
If it wasn't for your horses, most of you assholes would never have spent that year in college.
 
2012-08-23 10:47:11 PM  

taurusowner: MorePeasPlease: "It was empowering, to have that kind of control," she recalls. "Guys were texting and calling me all the time, and I was turning them down. I really enjoyed it! I had these options to hook up if I wanted them, and no one would judge me for it."


THAT is the heart of the issue. They enjoy the attention, the feeling of being better than the men because they know they are on the pedestal and call the shots. That's all this really comes down to. It's not even really about the sex, or relationships or lack of. College girls figured out that they way they can obtain the most attention and control is by acting like this.


And by attending engineering schools.

I went to Florida Tech in the early 70s. Fifteen men for every woman. The ladies made the most of it, and we kept them very busy.
 
2012-08-23 10:51:36 PM  

taurusowner: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: No its bad because they're getting laid more than taurusowner.


It's as if you're reading my mind.


[farm5.staticflickr.com image 465x619]


I bet it's the car.

4seasons85!: I'm 27 and in about a year I will finally be done with college. But the reletionship angle for me was influenced by my grandmother and other older women who frequently tell me I have enough time to get married, don't bother with reletionships now. This and also I'm a bit of a commitment phobe. Though it does not help if the guy wants me to go out of state to meet his parents after the our second date. :/


Yeah, sounds like that guy is a bit silly...
 
2012-08-23 10:54:48 PM  

Oh_Enough_Already: Curiously, at the same time, so much as saying "Lovely day today isn't it?" so a woman who doesn't find you attractive can be sufficient to merit a sexual harassment suit, the loss of your job, etc.


Unattractive men should know their place.
 
2012-08-23 10:57:39 PM  

Oh_Enough_Already: Curiously, at the same time, so much as saying "Lovely day today isn't it?" so a woman who doesn't find you attractive can be sufficient to merit a sexual harassment suit, the loss of your job, etc.


So, now all of Fark and indeed the known universe know that you are A) NOT good looking; B) NOT attractive; C) UNATTRACTIVE.

/as if we'd not all long since already deduced as much.
 
2012-08-23 10:57:49 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: Cool story: Went to the college clinic to check out a burning sensation. When asked, proudly described my active sex life.

The doc said: "OK, you present a low risk for STD's. Probably just drinking too much coffee."


I went into my university's clinic for an injury I got on a snowboard and the doc insisted that I get tested for STDs because I looked like a dirty man whore I guess.
 
2012-08-23 11:02:53 PM  

Oh_Enough_Already: Curiously, at the same time, so much as saying "Lovely day today isn't it?" so a woman who doesn't find you attractive can be sufficient to merit a sexual harassment suit, the loss of your job, etc.


I feel like I am missing out on an entire facet of American culture. Seriously, are there people like this? Is the hook-up culture really this prolific? Do women really equate control they have over men's sexuality with feminism? Or is that a theory developed by single men? I feel totally out of the loop.

I went to grad school with all foreigners (married or in serious relationships), work with only foreign men, and am married to a goddamn foreigner, so maybe I just don't know anything about my own people.
 
2012-08-23 11:04:42 PM  
uhoh here comes the bitter brigade.

look just do what you want (as long as it involves consenting adults and condoms) and don't worry what anybody else is doing.

\found a good man, no longer bitter.
 
2012-08-23 11:12:15 PM  

PanicMan: Okay. Who cares? Go have fun.

/Protip: This is less likely to happen at engineering schools.


I went to Drexel University, so I'm getting a real kick...
 
2012-08-23 11:12:49 PM  

RoyBatty: Time to die.


You're my favorite Farker, dude.
 
2012-08-23 11:20:27 PM  
Okay, I'm old, so maybe I'm seriously missing the point, but:

I know a bunch of 50+ year old men and women who didn't risk commitment 25 years ago, and they're rich, and they're good looking, and they're sad. They fly off to Cabo and lie on the beach and drink fruity drinks with lots of rum. And I also know a bunch of 50+ who barely make their utilities bill, never go on a vacation, and are deleriously happy because they get to play with their grandchildren. It's not about sex or hooking up (everybody's doing that): it's about culture. From a practical perspective, it makes sense to do stuff that will make you a happy geezer.
 
2012-08-23 11:21:35 PM  

taurusowner: This is why men "have to" by women drinks at the bar, pay for the first few dates, etc. The control has flowed to the female. They know it and love it.


I'm gonna stop you right there. If you're buying some random chick at the bar drinks you're not getting laid that often. And if you pay for every first date you haven't been dating very long. I can tell within the span of the date if I want to have sex with this woman at some point in the near future or if I'm going to see her again, if the answer is no on both of those then we're going dutch.

And if you act like that to a girl that's friendzoned you, you are a sucker. What a man who knows what hes doing does is keep the hot female friends and then pick up other girls to take home in front of them, or at least attempt it. If you're begging for her attention she's never going to lay you.

I know it sounds like some of that douche bag pick-up artist crap, but it's not. If you look desperate you look unattractive as a sexual mate. You do look attractive as someone that will buy them drinks though. Don't get used

/I've gone on dates where the woman just expects that I'll be paying, no matter how weird, or rude she is. I don't play the dating for dinner game.
 
2012-08-23 11:23:12 PM  

skilbride: I slept with a ton of guys in college but it had nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with the fact that I like sex.


How YOU doin' ?
 
2012-08-23 11:23:18 PM  
Nobody ever bothered asking me if I had any STDs :(
 
2012-08-23 11:23:44 PM  

foxyshadis: The new show Girls is much better than this article, which seems like it could have been ripped from the pages of Penthouse or Playboy.

/Maybe I just like neurotic people. Mad About You was my favorite show as a young teen, after all.


Apropos of nothing, this is the first hit for "Girls" on GIS today:
[4umf.com image 500x334]


My attention, you have it. And where can I see this show "Girls"?
 
2012-08-23 11:23:56 PM  

RoyBatty: Too old for High School Teachers to abuse me. Too old for college hookup culture.

Time to die.


And the hot women in my age dating range have gone cougar and are farking the young dudes. What's left are newly divorced, fat, burned out, bitter shrews. No thanks.
 
2012-08-23 11:27:59 PM  

pedobearapproved: I can tell within the span of the date if I want to have sex with this woman at some point in the near future or if I'm going to see her again, if the answer is no on both of those then we're going dutch.



That's pretty lame.
 
2012-08-23 11:32:09 PM  
This article does essentially cover my experience.
 
2012-08-23 11:33:34 PM  
olddinosaur:

You work for 70% of a man's wages,.

If there was one tired, misleading statistic I could take out back and give the Old Yeller treatment to, it would be this one.


Regardless, the number of people and commentators who are surprised at an entire generation who views life as completely disposable and who are turning relationships into momentary physical interludes on the order of macro-Brownian Motion is troubling, simply because these "watchers of culture" are also missing out on the symptoms of this empty culture at large. The post-X generations neither have anything tangible, nor do they place any value in things of permanence. They collect nothing physical; everything is temporary. Photos? On the phone. Music? On the cloud. Books? Who reads? They can get it on their tablet anyways. Cars? Housing? Nope (you were joking about those, right?). Jobs? Move where-ever / when-ever they feel like it. Who needs friends in the real world when I have Twit-book?

Where there is nothing to anchor a life in the physical world, there can be no relationships of permanence either.
 
2012-08-23 11:34:18 PM  

PanicMan: Okay. Who cares? Go have fun.

/Protip: This is less likely to happen at engineering schools.


As a guy who went to an engineering school (Michigan Tech), I can tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
2012-08-23 11:34:41 PM  
I blame internet porn. No, hear me out.

It's time to address the growing influence that legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

It's not just the sheer availability and volume of porn nowadays, it's the intensity. Sure, we all had Playboys stashed under our beds, but developing a sexual appetite through softcore magazine spreads is not equivalent to today's teenagers being sexually weaned on Brazilian bukakke beastiality.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teenage girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, the girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any interest in them. It's all very cruel and atavistic, and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn.
 
2012-08-23 11:36:26 PM  

Ishkur: I blame internet porn. No, hear me out.

It's time to address the growing influence that legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

It's not just the sheer availability and volume of porn nowadays, it's the intensity. Sure, we all had Playboys stashed under our beds, but developing a sexual appetite through softcore magazine spreads is not equivalent to today's teenagers being sexually weaned on Brazilian bukakke beastiality.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teenage girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, the girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any interest in them. It's all very cruel and atavistic, and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn.


God bless the internet.
 
2012-08-23 11:39:59 PM  

Oh_Enough_Already: Curiously, at the same time, so much as saying "Lovely day today isn't it?" so a woman who doesn't find you attractive can be sufficient to merit a sexual harassment suit, the loss of your job, etc.


You must be able to *really* work that phrase!

/impressed
 
2012-08-23 11:52:36 PM  
Awfully long article just to talk about whores.
 
2012-08-23 11:55:15 PM  
totally agree. now EVERYONE's afraid of commitment.
 
2012-08-23 11:55:37 PM  

wingedkat: This article does essentially cover my experience.


My college experience sucked entirely.
 
2012-08-24 12:02:46 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Fano: RoyBatty: Too old for High School Teachers to abuse me. Too old for college hookup culture.

Time to die.

...like spunk in the rain?

I watched spunk-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate.


Hey, same here! One of my favorite 80's pornos.

/want more life, farker
 
2012-08-24 12:03:19 AM  

goodbomb: totally agree. now EVERYONE's afraid of commitment.


Or maybe just smart enough to realize it's a trap.

But whatever, all the hangups about sex that people have are just one of the many things that has made me sick of the species.
 
2012-08-24 12:13:48 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: foxyshadis: The new show Girls is much better than this article, which seems like it could have been ripped from the pages of Penthouse or Playboy.

/Maybe I just like neurotic people. Mad About You was my favorite show as a young teen, after all.


Apropos of nothing, this is the first hit for "Girls" on GIS today:
[4umf.com image 500x334]

My attention, you have it. And where can I see this show "Girls"?




Girls
 
2012-08-24 12:25:49 AM  

new_york_monty: tinfoil-hat maggie: foxyshadis: The new show Girls is much better than this article, which seems like it could have been ripped from the pages of Penthouse or Playboy.

/Maybe I just like neurotic people. Mad About You was my favorite show as a young teen, after all.


Apropos of nothing, this is the first hit for "Girls" on GIS today:
[4umf.com image 500x334]

My attention, you have it. And where can I see this show "Girls"?



Girls


Ah thank you.
 
2012-08-24 12:30:15 AM  

Ishkur: I blame internet porn. No, hear me out.

It's time to address the growing influence that legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

It's not just the sheer availability and volume of porn nowadays, it's the intensity. Sure, we all had Playboys stashed under our beds, but developing a sexual appetite through softcore magazine spreads is not equivalent to today's teenagers being sexually weaned on Brazilian bukakke beastiality.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic and demanding.

There has been a noted rise in teenage girls seeking their first sexual gratification from their friends (the so-called lesbian phase) because all the boys in their schools are absolute monsters. Virgin teen girls are nervous and apprehensive and vulnerable when they become sexually active. They want their first experience to be with someone they trust, and teenage boys seem to be not that interested in intimacy or anything meaningful. They want to get off and move on, in the most demeaning way possible, just like the videos they watch every night.

By the time they get to college, the girls are basically competing with Redtube and Bangbus. They must put out or the guys don't care. And they must be lascivious, nasty, filthy little cum dumpsters willing to deepthroat a full load or no guy will pay any interest in them. It's all very cruel and atavistic, and probably would not be so extreme without such easy access to hardcore porn.


That was a thoughtful, well-written and informative post. What the hell are you doing on Fark?

/Seriously, that was a really good post.
 
2012-08-24 12:42:03 AM  
Interesting. We've been "arriving" at this stop for a long time.

Sad, too.

Much good stuff on this thread, though. Boys need to...stop being monsters. Courtship is nice.
 
2012-08-24 01:00:01 AM  
314/:

Okay, I'm old, so maybe I'm seriously missing the point, but:

I know a bunch of 50+ year old men and women who didn't risk commitment 25 years ago, and they're rich, and they're good looking, and they're sad. They fly off to Cabo and lie on the beach and drink fruity drinks with lots of rum. And I also know a bunch of 50+ who barely make their utilities bill, never go on a vacation, and are deleriously happy because they get to play with their grandchildren. It's not about sex or hooking up (everybody's doing that): it's about culture. From a practical perspective, it makes sense to do stuff that will make you a happy geezer.


How do you know they're sad? And even if they are, how do you know it's because they didn't have kids and grandkids? Beachcombing and fruity drinks doesn't sound very sad to me. And having kids doesn't guarantee that those kids will have your grandkids, or that they won't be in juvenile detention. Besides, what right does someone have to say, I raised you, now give me grandkids so I can be happy? I see your anecdotal evidence, and raise you with my own. I've seen plenty of 50+ DINKs who are perfectly happy doing their own thing, and plenty of 50-somethings with children who were miserable because they passed up their chances to have their own good time.

Lady Egalitarian already said it. Do what makes you happy. Stop worrying about the others.
 
2012-08-24 01:02:31 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Ishkur: I blame internet porn. No, hear me out. [...]

God bless the internet.


My sentiments exactly.
 
2012-08-24 01:11:35 AM  
At 25, most people I know are living the hook-up culture. The biggest complaints I hear about dating are incompatibility, clingers, and various stages of psychosis.

My generation has come of age in a tumultuous time, where everything we were raised to believe has crashed down in utter failure. Needless to say, many of us are apprehensive to commit to anything that doesn't boast immediate, sharp gains. I know that after watching my parents get divorced, I'm alarmingly selective when it comes to picking the right woman. There's no need to piss away decades of my life to fulfill the dreams of others.

I think both young men and women feel this way, and it's probably for the best. There's no reason to marry for the simple sake of it. Being alone sucks sometimes, but it's better than being with someone I resent. I, like most of my friends, enjoy the simplicity of an adult life with no boundaries. Frequent travel, wild adventures, and yes, tawdry hookups are all experiences that are much more attractive than arguments, family pressures, and financial strain.

As a former hopeless romantic, I tell you, the hook-up culture is where it's at. It is about becoming fully self-aware before burdening another with your wild idiosyncrasies.
 
2012-08-24 01:15:09 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: goodbomb: totally agree. now EVERYONE's afraid of commitment.

Or maybe just smart enough to realize it's a trap.

But whatever, all the hangups about sex that people have are just one of the many things that has made me sick of the species.


go fark a bonobo!
 
2012-08-24 01:32:22 AM  

Mugato: Lsherm: //never saw that woman again, but I was so drunk I couldn't remember what she looked like the next day

And if she was drunk too, you could have been brought up on rape charges.

/maybe not republican rape but rape nonetheless
//said rape twice


three times in fact...
 
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