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(National Review)   What would it take for one of America's biggest opponents of gay marriage to change her mind? "I would want to see 2 generations of functional gay marriage." But if it's illegal, how is that possible? "Next question"   (nationalreview.com) divider line 77
    More: Stupid, same-sex marriages, LGBT people, Dan Savage  
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2530 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Aug 2012 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-23 02:54:38 PM
Thanks Mark for that caveat. With regard to the public policy of same-sex marriage, I had said, here is what I would want: I would want to see two generations of gay marriage and some society that in that time-span was able to create a basically functioning marriage culture i.e., one in which the ideal for a child is mom and dad was upheld as a norm and supported in theory (and at least to some degree in practice).

right, but it's not like gay couples are stealing children from functional nuclear families. the alternative for most of the kids being adopted is living without either a mother or a father.
 
2012-08-23 03:02:47 PM
With regard to the public policy of same-sex marriage, I had said, here is what I would want: I would want to see two generations of gay marriage and some society that in that time-span was able to create a basically functioning marriage culture i.e., one in which the ideal for a child is mom and dad was upheld as a norm and supported in theory (and at least to some degree in practice).

WTF does that load even mean? It sounds almost as if you're saying you'll support gay marriage when some country has it legalized for two generations while at the same time discriminating against gay marriage by having laws that are biased in favor of heterosexuals.

On the assumption that you just mean that you want to see somewhere that gives gays civil rights for two generations without descending into a hellmouth then I point you to the Netherlands, which has allowed gay civil unions since 1979. I now expect that you'll reply with either that the Netherlands is a drug infested hellhole or that you never specifically quantified 'two generations' and will move those goalposts as necessary.

I would add: If really good scientific evidence disproved the idea that children benefit from their mom and dad, that would rock my world in ways that I can't say what would happen.

Oh look, another goalpost to move: 'really good' evidence, AND a strawman; this guys giving quality derp. No one is saying that kids don't benefit from a mother and a father. We're saying that they aren't harmed by having two daddies. Especially not anymore than they're harmed by having a single parent, or being adopted, or being in an orphanage, all of which were legal the last time I looked into the matter.
 
2012-08-23 03:30:40 PM
I'm pretty sure all the straight people in Canada haven't gotten divorced because they have gay marriage there. (Don't yell at me here Canadians) Canada is as close as you are going to get to the United States culturally, and they have lived. It's not 2 generations, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Canada, straight marriages in Canada, and Canadian children are not going to hell in a hand basket because gay people have equal marriage rights.

How about he goes and lives in some real backwater for two generations while Americans are granted equal rights? If the US falls apart because gay people were given equal rights, he wins. And the entire time he will have been living his anti-gay dream in Uganda. Hell, maybe he can even have a few of them executed there. I'm sure that would enhance his feelings about his straight marriage.

The US should not be behind other nations in civil rights. What in the hell makes the US "exceptional" if South Africa is ahead of us on equal rights?
 
2012-08-23 03:35:26 PM
Hell, I'd like to see 2 generations of successful hetero marriages
 
2012-08-23 03:35:43 PM
Brian Brown of the National Organization for Marriage and Dan Savage at long last came together in Savage's living room to debate the topic "Is Christianity bad for LGBT people?" (Savage chose the topic.) Of course, gay marriage came up as well. You can watch the whole thing:

Mark Oppenheimer picked the topic, as indicated at 4:00 in the video she just linked to. They also specify it's in the dining room, not the living room, at 2:50 (as if the big-ass table wasn't clue enough). That's two false statements in the FIRST SENTENCE ALONE that were disproved in the first fraction of the video. Those wouldn't bother me as much if she didn't use the debate topic as a dig against Savage. And this asshole dares to lecture on "really good scientific evidence"?
 
2012-08-23 03:36:28 PM
encrypted-tbn2.google.com


Here are links to the results she is looking for

Marriage of Same-Sex Couples - 2006 Position Statement Canadian Psychological Association

"Elizabeth Short, Damien W. Riggs, Amaryll Perlesz, Rhonda Brown, Graeme Kane: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Parented Families - A Literature Review prepared for The Australian Psychological Society" (PDF). Retrieved 2010-11-05.

Brief of the American Psychological Association, The California Psychological Association, The American Psychiatric Association, and the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy as Amici Curiae in support of plaintiff-appellees
 
2012-08-23 03:40:39 PM
You don't see gay parents beating, sexually torturing, burning, drowning, making their kids dress like hookers, put them into clothes dryers for fun, force them into religious cults, making them marry horny old Mormon men, or teach them to hate people who aren't like themselves.

img502.imageshack.us

As far as longevity of gay relationships?

Don't make me post a picture of a male couple who met during their military deployment overseas, and have been together for 60 years.
 
2012-08-23 03:50:30 PM
I hope these people live long enough to watch their entire life's work crumble around them and see their names go down in history as nothing more than bigoted vermin.
 
2012-08-23 03:57:21 PM

Aarontology: I hope these people live long enough to watch their entire life's work crumble around them and see their names go down in history as nothing more than bigoted vermin.


The good news there is we will have SO MUCH MORE video and audio and in much better quality than the bigoted vermin of previous anti-civil rights campaigns. It will be hard for them (and their unfortunately children and grandchildren) to deny their bigotry. We'll have plenty of it in HD.
 
2012-08-23 04:05:25 PM
They've got zero scientific evidence to support the claim that two moms or two dads is worse than one of each. Literally all they have is "it just ain't right", which of course I always hear in my head with the voice of those South Park rednecks "they took our jerbs!"
 
2012-08-23 04:10:11 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Hell, I'd like to see 2 generations of successful hetero marriages


That's the point I was going to make. She says:

I would add: If really good scientific evidence disproved the idea that children benefit from their mom and dad, that would rock my world in ways that I can't say what would happen.

We have a few decades of data. There are plenty of children who have been raised by single parents or otherwise non-nuclear structures.

I really have to question her sincerity, and again conclude she has a problem with two same-sex parents. I would be she doesn't think highly of single parents, either.

She thinks simply plugging in all the "right" components - Mommy, Daddy, Child - the structure alone creates a beneficial environment for the child. Baloney. Even in "traditional" nuclear families, you can have absentee parents. A disinterested parent, a working parent who is uninvolved, a parent who travels alot, a parent with substance abuse or other addictions.

The love and care required for a child to flourish can be provided regardless of the genders or makeup of the people in the family providing it.
 
2012-08-23 04:13:17 PM

WorldCitizen: Aarontology: I hope these people live long enough to watch their entire life's work crumble around them and see their names go down in history as nothing more than bigoted vermin.

The good news there is we will have SO MUCH MORE video and audio and in much better quality than the bigoted vermin of previous anti-civil rights campaigns. It will be hard for them (and their unfortunately children and grandchildren) to deny their bigotry. We'll have plenty of it in HD.


Glorious!
 
2012-08-23 04:50:02 PM
As a gay man who raised for a few years my younger brother because his straight parents SUCKED AT PARENTING (he is my half brother with a different and awful dad), I also have a bit of experience in how these people thinking a straight man and woman is always better than a single parent or gay parents are full of shiat.
 
2012-08-23 04:55:24 PM
I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.
 
2012-08-23 05:18:24 PM

WorldCitizen: As a gay man who raised for a few years my younger brother because his straight parents SUCKED AT PARENTING (he is my half brother with a different and awful dad), I also have a bit of experience in how these people thinking a straight man and woman is always better than a single parent or gay parents are full of shiat.



Yep.  Anecdotal evidence and all here... but every gay couple in a long-term relationship (those that would most likely be married if it were legal) I know have the healthiest relationships I know of.
 
2012-08-23 05:18:42 PM

Lionel Mandrake: I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.


In all my time following this issue, I have found a total of one secular argument against gay marriage: it would make annulments more challenging in the UK. In order to allow gay marriage in the UK, they have to remove a quaint law that says a marriage isn't official until there's penis-in-vagina consummation. If that law is removed, Catholics will no longer be able to claim that they never had sex and get an annulment since their marriage wasn't legally consummated.

And bam, you have a bona fide, if utterly silly, harm to straight couples that results from legal gay marriage.
 
2012-08-23 05:26:07 PM

Lumpmoose: Lionel Mandrake: I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.

In all my time following this issue, I have found a total of one secular argument against gay marriage: it would make annulments more challenging in the UK. In order to allow gay marriage in the UK, they have to remove a quaint law that says a marriage isn't official until there's penis-in-vagina consummation. If that law is removed, Catholics will no longer be able to claim that they never had sex and get an annulment since their marriage wasn't legally consummated.

And bam, you have a bona fide, if utterly silly, harm to straight couples that results from legal gay marriage.


Very interesting. Thanks.

Annulment. What a joke. My Catholic aunt and uncle got an annulment after 30+ years of marriage, 3 kids and 5 grand kids. I'm guessing they went with something other than "we didn't have sex" to justify this annulment, but I didn't ask.
 
2012-08-23 05:27:00 PM

Lionel Mandrake: I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.


Unless bigotry is part of your makeup - an essential component of your identity - I don't see how either.
 
2012-08-23 05:28:36 PM

Lumpmoose: Lionel Mandrake: I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.

In all my time following this issue, I have found a total of one secular argument against gay marriage: it would make annulments more challenging in the UK. In order to allow gay marriage in the UK, they have to remove a quaint law that says a marriage isn't official until there's penis-in-vagina consummation. If that law is removed, Catholics will no longer be able to claim that they never had sex and get an annulment since their marriage wasn't legally consummated.

And bam, you have a bona fide, if utterly silly, harm to straight couples that results from legal gay marriage.


So to sum up - bureaucracy makes it hard. Agreed - silly.
 
2012-08-23 05:41:04 PM
I'm 30 minutes into the video and so far these guys are arguing two separate points.
 
2012-08-23 05:48:04 PM

pudding7: I'm 30 minutes into the video and so far these guys are arguing two separate points.


So you haven't gotten to the make up sex scene at the end yet?
 
2012-08-23 05:48:53 PM

Lionel Mandrake: I'm still waiting for an opponent of gay marriage to explain what I or any other straight person have to lose if two dues or two dames get hitched. They always say they're "protecting" traditional marriage but they never explain how hetero marriage would be hurt. I mean, they apparently can't even make a threat up, let alone point out an actual one.


I'm waiting for them to attend to the menace of senior citizen marriage. If the goal of traditional marriage is to provide the best environment for raising kids, why are we allowing people too old to bear kids the opportunity to get hitched?
 
2012-08-23 05:51:21 PM
She has a ton of room to talk..

"In her 20s she reverted to Catholicism because her experience as a single mother made her consider the importance of fathers and the linkage of sex to procreation."
 
2012-08-23 05:53:00 PM
Isn't gay marriage legal in a handful of states already? This experiment seems like it's underway already.
 
2012-08-23 05:53:32 PM

Karac: WTF does that load even mean? It sounds almost as if you're saying you'll support gay marriage when some country has it legalized for two generations while at the same time discriminating against gay marriage by having laws that are biased in favor of heterosexuals.

On the assumption that you just mean that you want to see somewhere that gives gays civil rights for two generations without descending into a hellmouth then I point you to the Netherlands, which has allowed gay civil unions since 1979. I now expect that you'll reply with either that the Netherlands is a drug infested hellhole or that you never specifically quantified 'two generations' and will move those goalposts as necessary.


I guarantee that if you produced this data he'd move the goalposts to say that what he wants to see is a healthy child produced from a gay couple that were also raised by gay couples. Then if you somehow produced that data, he'd argue that it was proof that gay marriage turns kids gay and should be illegal.
 
2012-08-23 05:53:36 PM
Sure, it's possible. Some states legalize it, others don't. 5 to 30 years later depending on how nervous people were about it and how long it takes to determine success anecdotally, people realize it's no big deal, move on with their lives and are fine with a national-level version of the institution. Or a court case de facto allowing it, or just becoming a national standard without the government becoming involved.

See also: '90s Republican healthcare (aka Romneycare aka Obamacare), most 'environmentalist' efforts, direct election of Senators (something like 3/4 of states already used the system when the 17th amendment came around), non-smoking cities, concealed handgun licensing and reciprocity.

//I'd actually almost call this the 'usual' way that national laws get passed.
 
2012-08-23 05:54:07 PM

Diogenes: We have a few decades of data. There are plenty of children who have been raised by single parents or otherwise non-nuclear structures.


We have a prime example of a person raised by a single mother and grandparents that grew up to be the farking President of the farking United farking States of farking America, fark yeah.
 
2012-08-23 05:57:04 PM

max_pooper: Diogenes: We have a few decades of data. There are plenty of children who have been raised by single parents or otherwise non-nuclear structures.


We have a prime example of a person raised by a single mother and grandparents that grew up to be the farking President of the farking United farking States of farking America, fark yeah.


There are always statistical outliers. In general, are kids better off with a mother and father as caregivers than they are with other family structures? Probably so, but it is something that could be addressed with real data.
 
2012-08-23 05:58:44 PM
This makes perfect sense to me... I mean as long as by 'perfect sense', I actually mean 'no sense'. Try it, you'll see what I mean, and it will make perfect sense to you as well.
 
2012-08-23 05:59:10 PM

Lumpmoose: If that law is removed, Catholics will no longer be able to claim that they never had sex and get an annulment since their marriage wasn't legally consummated.


Why would Catholic law be effected by British law? Granted, I could see the Catholic church basing their annulment rules on local law, but one could think they could change that.

Like the whole annulment thing isn't a complete farce anyway. How many married couples have never had sex?
 
2012-08-23 05:59:22 PM
Show me just ONE generation of functional heterosexual marriage here in the South.
 
2012-08-23 06:01:32 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Hell, I'd like to see 2 generations of successful hetero marriages


THIS.

/all my friends parents divorced when I was a kid and my parents just celebrated their 55th wedding anniversary - and I'm the one who turned out gay
 
2012-08-23 06:02:16 PM
That makes perfect sense. After all, we made black people prove they're not inherently dirty before we allowed them to start sitting in the same seats we white folks use.
 
2012-08-23 06:02:36 PM

MarshHawk: I'm waiting for them to attend to the menace of senior citizen marriage. If the goal of traditional marriage is to provide the best environment for raising kids, why are we allowing people too old to bear kids the opportunity to get hitched?


Unlike gay marriage, I can say allowing that can actually encourage otherwise fertile heterosexual couples to wait for marriage until after menopause - thus discouraging procreation.

It also encourages them to marry with less thought, knowing that if they screw up, they can just fix it with the "right" marriage later in life.

Of course I wouldn't make those arguments, because I'm not retarded.
 
2012-08-23 06:04:04 PM
The anti-gay marriage guy is saying basically that "Marriage between man and woman is the institution that allows children to know their mother and father. " So, two people who aren't married can't have kids?

I don't get why Dan Savage isn't shredding this guy sentence by sentence.
 
2012-08-23 06:05:15 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: In general, are kids better off with a mother and father as caregivers than they are with other family structures? Probably so, but it is something that could be addressed with real data.


I'm sure data will show kids are better off with 2 parents with college degrees than without. People might not like where that sort of reasoning leads.
 
2012-08-23 06:06:55 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Hell, I'd like to see 2 generations of successful hetero marriages


That's what I thought at first. "How do gay married couples procreate to another generation, and how do they ensure that the next generation will also be gay?"

Then I realized that she meant that population-wise. Basically, she wants to see about 40 years of same-sex marriage availability and see the results of that. Ok, it's a very long-term experiment, but if that's what it takes for gays to be married, let's do it. Take half the states in the Union, chosen randomly, and allow same-sex marriages. Keep the other half with "traditional" marriage only. Run that experiment for 40 years and see what happens.
 
2012-08-23 06:07:26 PM

impaler: AverageAmericanGuy: In general, are kids better off with a mother and father as caregivers than they are with other family structures? Probably so, but it is something that could be addressed with real data.

I'm sure data will show kids are better off with 2 parents with college degrees than without. People might not like where that sort of reasoning leads.


People are already unhappy with the fact that a college degree is the bare minimum entry-level hurdle to having a reasonably comfortable life.
 
2012-08-23 06:07:43 PM
DNRTFA, but how did she define 'functional'?
 
Ehh
2012-08-23 06:08:45 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: Isn't gay marriage legal in a handful of states already? This experiment seems like it's underway already.


Coming up: let me see three generations! Also, the long form birth certificate with the gold seal.
 
2012-08-23 06:08:48 PM

Karac: With regard to the public policy of same-sex marriage, I had said, here is what I would want: I would want to see two generations of gay marriage and some society that in that time-span was able to create a basically functioning marriage culture i.e., one in which the ideal for a child is mom and dad was upheld as a norm and supported in theory (and at least to some degree in practice).

WTF does that load even mean? It sounds almost as if you're saying you'll support gay marriage when some country has it legalized for two generations while at the same time discriminating against gay marriage by having laws that are biased in favor of heterosexuals.

On the assumption that you just mean that you want to see somewhere that gives gays civil rights for two generations without descending into a hellmouth then I point you to the Netherlands, which has allowed gay civil unions since 1979. I now expect that you'll reply with either that the Netherlands is a drug infested hellhole or that you never specifically quantified 'two generations' and will move those goalposts as necessary.

I would add: If really good scientific evidence disproved the idea that children benefit from their mom and dad, that would rock my world in ways that I can't say what would happen.

Oh look, another goalpost to move: 'really good' evidence, AND a strawman; this guys giving quality derp. No one is saying that kids don't benefit from a mother and a father. We're saying that they aren't harmed by having two daddies. Especially not anymore than they're harmed by having a single parent, or being adopted, or being in an orphanage, all of which were legal the last time I looked into the matter.



It means the same thing they mean about blacks and hispanics and atheists... and all their "America is a Christian nation" nonsense.

It means they're terrified that if we don't systemically treat people aren't straight white Christians as second-class citizens, and actually grant them true equality, THEY might actually take over and make straight white christians as the second-class citizens... so we'd best keep them on an awfully short leash.

These people want a society where they and their ilk get to welcome people into society and treat them as equals... kinda like "The Blind Side" or "The Help" or "Gran Torino."

Not a society where people are -actual- equals and can tell them to fark off, but one where straight white Christians get to go:

"You're alright for a..."

black guy
Mexican guy
queer guy
atheist guy
Hmong guy

What it means is that they're scared shiatless at the thought of the end of straight white Christian male privilege...
 
2012-08-23 06:09:06 PM

impaler: AverageAmericanGuy: In general, are kids better off with a mother and father as caregivers than they are with other family structures? Probably so, but it is something that could be addressed with real data.

I'm sure data will show kids are better off with 2 parents with college degrees than without. People might not like where that sort of reasoning leads.


Maybe not if both parents are absentee workaholics.

Loving caregivers is what matters most in raising children. It doesn't matter if it's biological parents, grandparents, second dads, step mothers, uncles, or even neighbors.
 
2012-08-23 06:10:24 PM

LordJiro: DNRTFA, but how did she define 'functional'?


Don't know, but eventually she'll mean "produces offspring."
 
2012-08-23 06:18:42 PM

cfffffgagffacfacfacfacfacccccfcaaffff: LordJiro: DNRTFA, but how did she define 'functional'?

Don't know, but eventually she'll mean "produces offspring."


Which then circles back to suggesting they should want a policy that all marriages that don't produce a kid within, say, 5 years, then it should be annulled for being non-functional.
 
2012-08-23 06:23:16 PM
Rightwingers live in a world where if something doesn't work out the way they want it to, it's because YOU were not praying to Republican Jesus and a Crying Eagle loudly enough.
 
Ehh
2012-08-23 06:26:51 PM

xria: cfffffgagffacfacfacfacfacccccfcaaffff: LordJiro: DNRTFA, but how did she define 'functional'?

Don't know, but eventually she'll mean "produces offspring."

Which then circles back to suggesting they should want a policy that all marriages that don't produce a kid within, say, 5 years, then it should be annulled for being non-functional.


Well, if a straight couple can't produce a kid and only one of them isn't fertile, they can ask a fertile gay friend to help out. The gay friend can join the marriage to make the kid legitimate and thus avoid God's perfect wrath. If both straight parents are infertile, they can be stoned to death or remarry, depending on their preference and what their congressional representative thinks is best.
 
2012-08-23 06:30:01 PM
I'm not sure I could bring that guy around when it comes to same-sex marriage but I may be able to move the needle when it comes to his feelings about gay sex.

Checks photo. Nevermind.
 
2012-08-23 06:36:10 PM
Someone remind me why I am supposed to give a flying fark about whatever managed to escape Maggie Gallagher's mouth today?
 
2012-08-23 06:40:40 PM
If less than 5% of the world is gay how would that harm civilization?
 
2012-08-23 06:42:00 PM

ontariolightning: If less than 5% of the world is gay how would that harm civilization?


Because everything will be destroyed by hurricanes.
 
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