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(NYC Aviation)   Broke family flying standby stuck at airport for a week until rescued by a different airline needing a PR boost   (nycaviation.com) divider line 54
    More: Dumbass, tickets, airlines, Salt Lake City International Airport, airports  
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15424 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2012 at 10:07 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-08-22 06:46:23 PM  
12 votes:
I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that if you can't afford a trip, maybe you shouldn't take one
2012-08-22 10:21:25 PM  
5 votes:

jaytkay: eggrolls: Even money they could have go home in shifts. Mom & son on flight one, dad & daughter on flight two within twenty-four hours. Heck, even the 13yr old could have flown as an unaccompanied minor.

With a week of sleeping on airport floors and lack of food and nothing better to do I would guess they kinda investigated all possible strategies for getting home.


I think you are over estimating their intelligence.
2012-08-22 07:55:18 PM  
4 votes:
If you can't afford to do something, don't do it. The boyfriend and I wanted to get up to NYC a couple of months ago to see some of his family, but we didn't have the money. So we stayed home. That's what responsible people do, and we don't even have any kids. It's just us. So that's extra irresponsible to drag your kids around, forcing them to sleep in an airport for a week.
2012-08-22 10:29:18 PM  
3 votes:

doglover: I like how the article assumes we all know what a buddy pass is or give a rat's ass about the family's shower status.


I'm guessing the people who finally ended up sitting next to them on their flight home cared about their shower status.
2012-08-22 10:12:34 PM  
3 votes:
I find the blog sums things up well. You guys realize that sympathy isn't an all or nothing type of deal, right?
2012-08-22 09:14:01 PM  
3 votes:

doglover: I like how the article assumes we all know what a buddy pass is or give a rat's ass about the family's shower status.


I believe a blog named "NYC Aviation" can make some assumptions about it's own readership.
2012-08-23 01:57:13 PM  
2 votes:
Taking the cheap, adventurous seat-of-your-pants kind of vacation, where you fly standby, go to whatever has inexpensive admission and try to have the best possible experience on the least money is all well and good -if you're a young adult or a senior citizen. I've done the buddy-pass thing a couple of times with my college friends and I know my Granny hasn't taken a non-standby flight in years. When you're the sort of patient person for whom walking laps in the Airmall, playing a portable video game, larking about on a laptop or reading murder mysteries for a day or so in a terminal is no big deal or even a pleasant break and your time isn't all that especially valuable, then standby travel is for you.

The MINUTE you have kids, though, unless somebody's on their deathbed across the country and a rental car's completely off the table, it's unreasonable in the extreme to expect standby to work for you. Little kids just don't have the attention span, the tolerance for what is, to them, the ninth circle of Hell or the ability to grasp why they still need to be quiet and respectful even though they're tired and cranky and there's nothing to do.

(Unless, of course, the kid is my nine-year-old godson. See, his autism-spectrum disorder pretty much means you can keep him happy and quiet as long as the laptop's charged and the headphones work, which makes him a pretty darn good flier for his age. Even so, I was really nervous about chancing him on a standby, but the lecture tickets for his birthday really took most of the travel budget and it was all he wanted in the world. So I took him on a standby ticket to hear his favorite scientist speak and that kid handled the five-hour wait for seats like it was nothing. People did a double-take when they realized he was an actual child and not just a really small, short adult. He also insisted on wearing his suit like a grownup, so I wore one, too, and we wound up in first class on the way out and business on the way back, which was completely awesome.)

But yeah, if you're traveling with children on ANY kind of flight, you carry enough money or space on the credit card for a hotel and at least two days' worth of extra meals, because you really don't know what's going to happen and those little ones are depending on you. Any kid but my godson, I'd sooner drive.
2012-08-23 02:39:10 AM  
2 votes:

Grave_Girl: Yeah, and most of us have the sense not to go on a faraway vacation with our kids when that's the situation.


Exactly.

When I was young and single, I did things like going to an SF convention without so much as gas money home, hoping to scrounge crash space and sublet some huckster space so I could sell stuff. Which I did successfully, by the way. But I didn't have other people depending on me. I didn't have a deadline (I was unemployed at the time, which explains why I was unscheduled, flat broke, and huckstering for a living, which is another CSB entirely). And if things had gone all wahooni-fruit-shaped, well, I knew who to blame, and that person could be easily found by looking in a mirror.

PSA: When you have a family, your options are somewhat more limited than they are when you're footloose and fancy-free. You don't get to pretend otherwise and have the rest of the world play along with you.

And seriously, one meal a day? For six days? I took a look at Google. There are a half-dozen convenience stores within walking distance of that airport. One person could have walked to the 7-11 (or any of several others) and for the price of one airport meal, they could have bought bread, peanut butter, and jelly, and everyone would have had plenty of PBJ sandwiches to eat. Sure, you get sick of PBJ after a while, but not as fast as you get sick of not eating.

They chose to take their kids on a trip they couldn't afford instead of a trip they could afford. That is not anyone's fault but their own.

They probably chose to wait for four seats together instead of taking catch-as-catch-can with their standby tickets, despite knowing from the start this is how it works. That is not anyone's fault but their own.

They chose to fly NRSA without taking anything they would need in the event they had to wait for days, not so much as a washcloth and a change of clothes. That is not anyone's fault but their own.

They chose to feed their kids one airport meal a day instead of going to a store to buy better food. That is not anyone's fault but their own.

And then they chose to whine about the results, so that someone else would pay the price of their choices. That's the choice that destroyed every shred of sympathy I might otherwise have for them.

Random strangers spent thousands of dollars to reward these people for choosing to do something they couldn't afford. There is no doubt, somewhere in Salt Lake City, a poor college student working two jobs, eating ramen noodles, and living in a room that a cockroach would reject, so he can afford school. Where's his media coverage? Why aren't those same generous people giving him thousands of dollars worth of freebies? They're rewarding the wrong people for the wrong things.
2012-08-23 12:46:37 AM  
2 votes:
A manager at my last job had to fly all the way to India and back to get his wife. She flew over there when her parents came for a visit in the US and she returned with them. But to get back to the US, she wasn't willing to fly alone. So her husband had to fly all the way around the world, sleep for a couple of hours and fly all the way back because she was too intimidated to fly alone. In high school I had a friend whose mom wouldn't drive anywhere further than the grocery store. She was too freaked out by the complexity of the world. I'm going to guess that the family in the story isn't full of Ph.D. degree holders. Mom may have simply been too, well, simple, to deal with flying home with a child but without her husband. Or heck, maybe the other way around and hubby couldn't be trusted to behave on his own. Or it may have never even occurred to them to split up.
2012-08-22 11:02:30 PM  
2 votes:
Never vacation while broke.

One member of the band I'm in has worked for an airline for more than 15 years. He met his wife who works for the same airline at the same airport. Over the years (starting before the turn of the century) he and his wife have offered us buddy passes, and the band played an employee party in a hangar for buddy passes for each of us.

We've used them roundtrip to LA many times, San Diego twice, this year to Vegas. It is rare that we get on the first flight. We have never had to spend overnight awaiting a flight, but we always have the resources to spend the night away from the terminal. We try to be as friendly and patient as we can. We eat before we are hungry and use restrooms often, trying always to be ready to go and stay in a good mood. We bring magazines, books, music (headphones), and neat comfortable clothes. We find that the more we show the agents that we know how the passes work and they understand that we will wait calmly. Universally, the agents work hard to get us on a flight and act as disappointed as we are when the doors close without us.

But we make certain we have the ability to get where we want to go and return if we are going to miss our vacation window while flying standby. We use the buddy passes to save money ... but have the money to use if we need it.
2012-08-22 11:02:27 PM  
2 votes:
Yeah, that employee is pretty hosed.
I despise giving out buddy passes for this reason and when asked I usually lie and say they're all gone, but I have my whole year's allotment. We are told we (the employees) are responsible for the actions of the buddy pass rider. If they get sloppy drunk and take a dump in the galley or raise hell with a gate agent we are on the hook. It really is not worth the headache.

/and I haven't seen a half empty airplane in a long time
2012-08-22 10:59:02 PM  
2 votes:
If you are broke, instead of flying across country, why not just take a trip to a city a few hours away?
2012-08-22 10:51:01 PM  
2 votes:
I have a teeny tiny bit of sympathy, but that's it. Most of the scorn should be on the employee who gave them the passes.

I work for Delta and if I had given these folks buddy passes my ass would be out on the street. You ALWAYS drill the non-rev process into your pass riders heads so there is no question they understand that they are at the bottom of the pecking order. Everything goes before a buddy pass. There may be seats open but because we can send more cargo, those seats stay empty and your ass spends more time in Craplakistan. Hell, I just spent an extra day in Chicago due to full flights. I bet they bought them off of ebay or craigslist. I cannot imagine an employee not explaining this to the family.
2012-08-22 10:32:09 PM  
2 votes:
As long as this family is adequately chastised and marginalized for being poor and taking their friend up on an opportunity to do something they never would have been able to afford otherwise, I can fall asleep happy and dream peacefully tonight.
2012-08-22 10:15:59 PM  
2 votes:
I expect to see a Consumerist article any day now.
2012-08-22 10:14:48 PM  
2 votes:
Even money they could have go home in shifts. Mom & son on flight one, dad & daughter on flight two within twenty-four hours. Heck, even the 13yr old could have flown as an unaccompanied minor.
2012-08-22 10:14:44 PM  
2 votes:
Hell for the price of feeding a family of four in the airport for a week you could rent a car and drive it from Utah to Virginia.
2012-08-22 10:14:04 PM  
2 votes:

joshiz: Oh and you are not supposed to use buddy passes for families - they really are for adults just because they do not guarantee you a seat.

I'm sure in the week that that family was in the airport there were flights with 1 or 2 or 3 seats open but that wasn't enough - they needed 4 seats.

Also, there is a dress code with buddy passes - no shorts or flip flops and they imply that you should wear a collared shirt.


Mom and the youngest kid go home on the first two available seats, Dad and the boy wait for the next two. Of course there may not have even been twosies available. Idjits anyway.
2012-08-22 09:04:56 PM  
2 votes:
The airline industry has sophisticated software designed to ensure no extra empty seats. Ever.

You think you can outsmart airline software, mom and dad? Really?
2012-08-22 06:57:17 PM  
2 votes:

the_sidewinder: I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that if you can't afford a trip, maybe you shouldn't take one



Yep. And the person who handed out those passes better start updating their resume.
2012-08-23 01:33:41 PM  
1 votes:

clear_prop: jaytkay: eggrolls: Even money they could have go home in shifts. Mom & son on flight one, dad & daughter on flight two within twenty-four hours. Heck, even the 13yr old could have flown as an unaccompanied minor.

With a week of sleeping on airport floors and lack of food and nothing better to do I would guess they kinda investigated all possible strategies for getting home.

I think you are over estimating their intelligence.


I'm willing to bet Mom and Dad sat there like smelly lumps waiting for someone to handle things for them while their four-year-old starved. But I've been on welfare.
2012-08-23 10:55:34 AM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: Transubstantive: You know, just because someone went to college doesn't mean their parents paid for it.

True, but people who sneer at the poor are not often acquainted with the circumstances of normal people.


I'm not sneering at them because they're poor, you ignorant farkwit. I'm sneering at them because they're stupid. When I was poor in college, I damn sure would've had the sense not to take a vacation if I couldn't afford emergency funds. And that was without small children.
2012-08-23 04:36:47 AM  
1 votes:
I feel bad for the family.
I can understand wanting to take your kids on a vacation, even when the financial situation is farked. Maybe especially then.
To bad it ended up like that. What could've been a time away from problems turned out to be a reminder that they're poor.
Can't see that the airline did anything wrong; following clearly laid out rules for a product isn't wrong.

...

I wonder though...did they try to go just two and two? Maybe send the mom and the 4-year old home first and then the father and the 13-year old later?

Cudos to UA for giving them a trip home, even if it's a PR-stunt it's a decent thing to do.
2012-08-23 04:22:20 AM  
1 votes:
HEY! Let's scar the children for life! :)

It'd be cool if you're doing this alone or with other adults who have a choice in the matter, dragging kids along for the ride is pathetic and deplorable.
2012-08-23 03:12:52 AM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: Selector: I knew some moron would say this, forgetting the fact that the family left for vacation WITH NO RESOURCES WHATSOEVER, be it $100 or $5000.

They left for vacation without the $6000 necessary to buy four "fly me today!" replacement tickets when they already had tickets home!!

This will be highly amusing to you and your friends at your next dressage meet-up.


Are you seriously defending the rights of poor people to take vacations that require air travel? I mean I can get on board with making sure every American has food, a roof over their head, clothes and medical care, but I think free vacations are going a bit overboard. .
2012-08-23 03:08:02 AM  
1 votes:

MrHappyRotter: Selector: MrHappyRotter: As long as this family is adequately chastised and marginalized for being poor and taking their friend up on an opportunity to do something they never would have been able to afford otherwise, I can fall asleep happy and dream peacefully tonight.

Who goes on a trip without even like an emergency $100 for a night in a hotel room?? Do these people exist??

I know, right. I always make sure to have enough cash and gold bouillon with me at all times to cover my basic necessities and living expenses over a freakishly long and entirely unexpected duration of time.


Why are you so against personal responsibility?
2012-08-23 01:24:38 AM  
1 votes:

jaytkay:
But most people have times when finances are real tight.


Yeah, and most of us have the sense not to go on a faraway vacation with our kids when that's the situation. Seriously, fark me if I ever put my kids through something like this. A week of eating only one meal a day? I would be ashamed of myself; I sure wouldn't be broadcasting my stupid to the media.
2012-08-23 01:00:05 AM  
1 votes:
Something tells me this family buys a lot of lottery tickets.
2012-08-23 12:19:49 AM  
1 votes:
For all of the people here calling out the stupidity of this family, I have seen people do this successfully many times. Their biggest mistake, in my mind, is not being willing to separate. They're traveling to the same destination, which at this point is home, they should have had one adult and the kids take the first flight with three open seats ... or one adult and one kid take the first with two open seats and the second set take the second flight with two open.

I've never heard of buddy passes before, but I've known people who were able to travel under similar circumstances. It can be a great way to do things you would never be able to afford otherwise. But you have to be pretty flexible with your plans just in case. 

Traveling with no money can be a problem, that's how I ended up spending my wedding night (first marriage) hanging out in the train station in Hamburg. But I've done it many times. I've always made it through, maybe a little worse for wear, but with some fond memories and occasionally a decent story or two. Granted, I've never done it with children.
2012-08-22 11:51:13 PM  
1 votes:

icepriestess: beantowndog: I havent seen an empty seat on a plane in years.

In July I flew on a plane that was only 1/3 full. Had an entire section to myself. On the second connector flight, I had my own row. They were midday flights too.

Just depends on where you're flying to, I guess.


Flight schedules and volume must be really odd, I have been on the same flights on different weeks sometimes they are nearly empty and other times they are bumping. I flew into Louisville week before the Kentucky Derby and it was half full, another random week and it is full. The big trends I see are Monday AM flights are heavy business, mid-week flights are full of families, semi-holidays like presidents day and Halloween tend to be lightest. But throw in a random storm and chaos rains.
2012-08-22 11:48:46 PM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: Selector: It's not like they went broke because they were in a predicament, which at least would have been worthy of sympathy. They were in a predicament BECAUSE they were broke, displaying a staggering lack of planning. Are you really so dense that you can't differentiate between the two??

We get it. Mommy and Daddy gave you a big allowance, you never had to live on a shoestring budget.

You might even work for a living, thanks to the graduate education Mums and Poppa funded.

Maybe you barely ever dip into your trust fund.

But most people have times when finances are real tight.


Oh, I forgot we glorify poor people now because they're poor, even when they do something stupid. Why, they don't know any better, they're poor!! That guy's being mean to the poor folks!! He must be rich!!

Your reasoning is farking retarded and I've seen five year olds with better cause-effect skills. You can go on ruining humanity by excusing the stupid decisions of people in stupid situations that they put themselves in, but I intend to ridicule them endlessly. You can have the last word now.
2012-08-22 11:37:02 PM  
1 votes:

Molavian: Ermm, I wear t-shirt and shorts in first class and business class all the time. Also baseball hats and boots. I dress for comfort while traveling, especially overseas. Christ, I have to fly to Australia next month and I'm dreading it.


The dress code is for non-rev. Paying passengers can wear whatever the fark they want, as long as the t-shirt doesn't say fark on it.
2012-08-22 11:29:11 PM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: Selector: I knew some moron would say this, forgetting the fact that the family left for vacation WITH NO RESOURCES WHATSOEVER, be it $100 or $5000.

They left for vacation without the $6000 necessary to buy four "fly me today!" replacement tickets when they already had tickets home!!

This will be highly amusing to you and your friends at your next dressage meet-up.


It's not like they went broke because they were in a predicament, which at least would have been worthy of sympathy. They were in a predicament BECAUSE they were broke, displaying a staggering lack of planning. Are you really so dense that you can't differentiate between the two??
2012-08-22 11:27:01 PM  
1 votes:
FTFA:
"The Saxton family was stranded at Salt Lake City International Airport for six days.
According to the local ABC affiliate, the Saxons got there last Wednesday night and didn't leave until Tuesday. Weather was great. Flights were going in and out on schedule. But the Saxtons ..."


Are we sure that they just didn't have the wrong name on their boarding passes?
2012-08-22 11:10:45 PM  
1 votes:

ScotterOtter: There are no rules against children using buddy passes. Also, different airlines have different rules as far as dress codes. Only a few airlines have it and it's only for flying first class.


I didn't say there were rules against using buddy passes for children - I said it wasn't advised for families because you need multiple seats.

The dress code I am referring to is a specific dress code for buddy passes. At least on the airline I am using them, you need to accept the terms and conditions when you redeem your pass and the dress code is part of those. This was also told to me by the airline employee who gave me the buddy passes. On that airline (which is one of the big 3) there technically is no dress code for first class yet there is for buddy passes.
2012-08-22 11:09:42 PM  
1 votes:
It's this kind of dimwitted brainless shiatfark that is in front of me in line at the grocery store arguing with the cashier that he can use food stamps to buy two cases of Natty Light. His half-dozen unwashed crotchfruit running amok in the store free range... While his Escalade sitting on 22's pulling a trailer full of jet-skis all bought on credit he'll never pay off is double-parked out front.
2012-08-22 11:08:04 PM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: Selector: Who goes on a trip without even like an emergency $100 for a night in a hotel room?? Do these people exist??

Pro tip: $100 does not cover a week in a hotel and meals for four.

/ Seriously, you can look it up


I knew some moron would say this, forgetting the fact that the family left for vacation WITH NO RESOURCES WHATSOEVER, be it $100 or $5000.
2012-08-22 10:52:57 PM  
1 votes:

joshiz: Oh and you are not supposed to use buddy passes for families - they really are for adults just because they do not guarantee you a seat.

I'm sure in the week that that family was in the airport there were flights with 1 or 2 or 3 seats open but that wasn't enough - they needed 4 seats.

Also, there is a dress code with buddy passes - no shorts or flip flops and they imply that you should wear a collared shirt.


There are no rules against children using buddy passes. Also, different airlines have different rules as far as dress codes. Only a few airlines have it and it's only for flying first class.

/20+ years of non-rev travel
2012-08-22 10:49:40 PM  
1 votes:

VW_Factor: Wait..

So some asshole down on his luck got himself AND his family into a bad situation ON PURPOSE.. We're supposed to care why?

I think the better question would be.. Why didn't they see this coming?

Even the 13 year old should have been smart enough to see this coming.


I'm guessing, and this is just a guess, that they are not frequent (or even ever before) fliers who know the ins and outs of air travel.
2012-08-22 10:38:51 PM  
1 votes:
Wait..

So some asshole down on his luck got himself AND his family into a bad situation ON PURPOSE.. We're supposed to care why?

I think the better question would be.. Why didn't they see this coming?

Even the 13 year old should have been smart enough to see this coming.
2012-08-22 10:38:12 PM  
1 votes:
No sympathy
. People that get sh*t for free are always the biggest demading whiners.
Look at US! We are a family and we are complete victims of a heartless non charitable organization.
2012-08-22 10:35:32 PM  
1 votes:

MrHappyRotter: As long as this family is adequately chastised and marginalized for being poor and taking their friend up on an opportunity to do something they never would have been able to afford otherwise, I can fall asleep happy and dream peacefully tonight.


Who goes on a trip without even like an emergency $100 for a night in a hotel room?? Do these people exist??
2012-08-22 10:33:52 PM  
1 votes:
I remember using a Buddy Pass on TWA from San Francisco to NYC about 25 years ago. 1 of us got on the first flight out and the other 2 had to wait all day. They finally let us get on the red eye but we were absolutely last, when we got down the jetway there was only one seat in coach where there should have been two. The flight attendant was about to make us get off when she got distracted by something, twice. Then a voice came over the intercom in a fairly stern tone, "are we ready to go yet?" The flight attendant kind of sighed and said to just take any 2 seats in there and pointed into business class. That was a righteous overnight trip.
2012-08-22 10:29:07 PM  
1 votes:

Too_many_Brians: As a person that just got bumped from a flight and will be spending the night in Dulles International, i find this amusing.

If i only did what i could afford and was responsible, i would have swallowed a bullet long ago.


Pro-tip: Bullets don't work if you swallow them.
2012-08-22 10:14:17 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: So that's extra irresponsible to drag your kids around, forcing them to sleep in an airport for a week.


Cuz "you will sleep in an airport for a week" was stamped on their tickets in REAL BIG LETTERS.
2012-08-22 10:12:02 PM  
1 votes:

Barfmaker: Coco LaFemme: If you can't afford to do something, don't do it. The boyfriend and I wanted to get up to NYC a couple of months ago to see some of his family, but we didn't have the money. So we stayed home. That's what responsible people do, and we don't even have any kids. It's just us. So that's extra irresponsible to drag your kids around, forcing them to sleep in an airport for a week.

Thanks for the life tip there, I'm sure they aspire to be as great as you someday.


To have a modicum of common sense and fiscal responsibility??


/you sound poor
2012-08-22 10:05:44 PM  
1 votes:

haemaker: doglover: I like how the article assumes we all know what a buddy pass is or give a rat's ass about the family's shower status.

I believe a blog named "NYC Aviation" can make some assumptions about it's own readership.


This is the internet. The only thing you can assume safely is Rule 34.
2012-08-22 09:51:00 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: If you can't afford to do something, don't do it. The boyfriend and I wanted to get up to NYC a couple of months ago to see some of his family, but we didn't have the money. So we stayed home. That's what responsible people do, and we don't even have any kids. It's just us. So that's extra irresponsible to drag your kids around, forcing them to sleep in an airport for a week.


Thanks for the life tip there, I'm sure they aspire to be as great as you someday.
2012-08-22 07:54:30 PM  
1 votes:

beantowndog: I havent seen an empty seat on a plane in years.


Depends on where you're flying to/from. I've flown from Denver to Edmonton and vice-versa on one of those tiny planes and had an entire row to myself a couple times.
2012-08-22 07:44:58 PM  
1 votes:
My sis has offered me standby tickets many time for the major she flies with. Tempting, but my time is more valuable than the ticket price at this point in my life.

/my mom uses them, but she's been bumped a few times.
//no sympathy for the family
///well, maybe for the kids because they are being raised by simpletons
2012-08-22 07:21:53 PM  
1 votes:
I havent seen an empty seat on a plane in years.
2012-08-22 07:19:45 PM  
1 votes:
Oh and you are not supposed to use buddy passes for families - they really are for adults just because they do not guarantee you a seat.

I'm sure in the week that that family was in the airport there were flights with 1 or 2 or 3 seats open but that wasn't enough - they needed 4 seats.

Also, there is a dress code with buddy passes - no shorts or flip flops and they imply that you should wear a collared shirt.
2012-08-22 07:16:16 PM  
1 votes:
I fly a lot but have a friend who works as a flight attendant. She sometimes has extra buddy passes left over so I have taken a couple trips with them.

You are absolutely on the bottom of the list EVEN IF you have status with that airline - that doesn't matter. At least on the airline my friend works for she can at least put you on a list for a particular flight in advance (although you can still get bumped) and check the status of flights to see how busy they are. Usually the earliest flights have a few seats left but as the day goes on, your chances get slimmer and slimmer.

But in August? With no money. No way.
2012-08-22 07:12:26 PM  
1 votes:
I'm really trying hard to muster up sympathy but:

the_sidewinder: I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that if you can't afford a trip, maybe you shouldn't take one


this exact reason is why I just can't seem to find any.
 
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