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(The Gazette)   Problem: College students who know their legal rights are refusing to let the police enter their homes when they knock. Solution: Make that a civil offense, with fines up to $1000 per offense   (thegazette.com) divider line 46
    More: Scary, Iowa City, Iowa, local ordinance, Iowa City Press-Citizen, disorderly house, police Chief Sam Hargadine  
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20604 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2012 at 2:10 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-08-22 11:38:31 AM
11 votes:

Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

And?


Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.
2012-08-22 11:26:22 AM
11 votes:
In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

Following the Constitution is not a good use of his officers' time.
2012-08-22 02:17:25 PM
4 votes:
Inch by inch,step by step,America has become a police state. If their were laws in place that enforced decibel levels at certain hours i can understand it but this is far too arbitrary.
2012-08-22 11:33:26 AM
4 votes:
It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.
2012-08-22 02:05:48 PM
3 votes:

GAT_00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.

For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.

For the second, that's an awfully generous assumption. I'd argue less than 2 years.

That's cute, you think there are still limits to the power of a police search.


Have your Fourth Amendment protections from bullshiat search and seizure been violated? Thank a drug prohibitionist.
2012-08-22 01:33:54 PM
3 votes:
I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?
2012-08-22 12:16:08 PM
3 votes:
After reading the article, it doesn't sound THAT bad. It looks like the city has an ordinance where, if you are a "disorderly house" you are fined. The rules say the police have to come to your house twice for noise complaints before anything is done, and you aren't instantly fined, there is a review process first.. Now, if you refuse to answer your door, the review process is started right away, and the city housing inspectors are told your house needs to be reviewed to see if it is disorderly and if they should or shouldn't be fined. If you disagree with the fine (if you are eventually fined) you can show up in court and dispute it, like a speeding ticket.

The article was a little light on the details, but that's what I pieced together from it.
2012-08-22 11:54:04 AM
3 votes:

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?


Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.
2012-08-22 11:36:08 AM
3 votes:

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.


And?
2012-08-22 11:33:18 AM
3 votes:
Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

Cops? Pro-tip here: Maybe you shouldn't be dumb, okay? I know it's hard when you decide to start hiring tech-school rejects and roid-happy gym-rats, but, seriously, try to understand what laws are and how they work. It'll keep you from looking like complete imbeciles.
2012-08-22 11:31:28 AM
3 votes:
On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.
2012-08-22 02:25:07 PM
2 votes:

cig-mkr: And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.


In other news, it just got harder to get your roommate to put his name on the lease....
2012-08-22 02:20:10 PM
2 votes:
America: fark, yeah.

Or "Sieg heil", as required.
2012-08-22 02:17:52 PM
2 votes:
Just have the first cop dressed in a pizza delivery outfit with a box. I guarantee they'll answer the door.
2012-08-22 11:55:05 AM
2 votes:

Mangoose: Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.

At the moment, anyways. The law is not some stone tablet forged upon a mountain top. It's a book written and rewritten by millions upon millions of people every day. If enough people want to make a law, they will. Whether the legality of that law holds can take a long time to decide.


Well given the SC precedent you can imagine that, if this law is made, and challenged, it will eventually end up with Scalia or Alito or someone saying not only can cops bust down doors without even bothering to knock, but we're all criminals for disagreeing with that, and in fact the civil penalty now includes jail time. Also you forfeit your house.
2012-08-22 11:39:48 AM
2 votes:

Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.


Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.
2012-08-22 11:04:42 PM
1 votes:

Tumunga: I remember the good old days when the cops would come to the front door, teenage drinking all about, and tell you the neighbors are complaining, turn the noise down, then leave. Also, I remember when you got pulled over, open booze containers in the car, and the cops would make you pour your booze out, then tell you to drive straight home.

What the fark happened?

/onion on my belt, etc.


War on drugs. They saw the money and applies the mantra to everything else.
2012-08-22 11:01:14 PM
1 votes:
I remember the good old days when the cops would come to the front door, teenage drinking all about, and tell you the neighbors are complaining, turn the noise down, then leave. Also, I remember when you got pulled over, open booze containers in the car, and the cops would make you pour your booze out, then tell you to drive straight home.

What the fark happened?

/onion on my belt, etc.
2012-08-22 07:45:11 PM
1 votes:
Crystal ball is showing me images of Iowa cops waiting for people to leave for work and then sticking $1000 fines on their front doors.
2012-08-22 05:39:43 PM
1 votes:
"A civil infraction would carry a $750 fine for a first offense and a $1,000 fine for subsequent offenses."

Let's see...

175 incidents x $750 fine = $131,250.

What'd ya want to bet it is not about the money?
2012-08-22 04:05:57 PM
1 votes:
How can they know it's the police if they're not answering the door?

Is it now mandatory to open the door, just in case it's police?
2012-08-22 04:04:29 PM
1 votes:

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


If you've ever seen the line for criminal court at certain times of year in a college town you'd know why. Any booze = crime. lol so silly.
2012-08-22 03:58:07 PM
1 votes:
What's going to happen is that now cops will put as little effort as possible when trying to make contact. Loud party? Go lightly tap on the door once and you've done your job. Let them deal with the 750k-1k fine. Ohh and I will just be floored when they start handing out these fines pretty much anytime a noise complaint is lodged.

Just kidding it's not like police would selectively and aggressively go after/for certain offenses because they are very profitable for the city.
2012-08-22 03:35:04 PM
1 votes:

consider this: lennavan: Heh yeah, the only people who need rights are the guilty ones. Repeal the 5th amendment, right?

Yeah, that's exactly what that means. Holy hell, these threads really do turn some of you retarded.


Yea, actually that was what you just argued.

consider this: have an idea that's just crazy enough to work, how about you don't do illegal shiat


Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.
2012-08-22 03:21:27 PM
1 votes:

SpectroBoy: This boils down to cops who are too lazy to spend a few hours to stay within the constitution.


There's that. There's also a likelihood that most judges would be less than impressed by being woken up at 2am to sign a warrant for a farking noise complaint.

Noise does not equal probable cause for, well, anything but noise. That's just asking to have any subsequent arrests thrown out. If I were a judge and woken in the middle of the night for this kind of crap, I'd tell the cops to write out a civil fine and let me get back to sleep. If they did it again, I'd tell them they were idiots and any subsequent arrests wouldn't stick.

/Not a lot of sympathy for the neighbors on college campuses. WTF do people expect when they move into college slum areas?
2012-08-22 03:18:47 PM
1 votes:

fireclown:
CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.


*fist bump to fireclown*

Actually, IMO, forcing the cops to follow protocol is an *excellent* way to spend an afternoon. Would that more of us were willing to invest the time necessary to keep our public servants "honest", especially when we have nothing to hide. Perhaps if we did so en masse, over time cops would learn to not be so cavalier about citizen's rights, searches and search warrants.
2012-08-22 03:14:04 PM
1 votes:

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


Then a GOOD USE OF THE COPS TIME would be to spend the TWO FREAKIN HOURS it takes to get the warrant. Then they can bust in handle shiat. Once the cops show they are willing to get a warrant the asshats will just answer the door. Once they have a warrant they are searching the joint.

This boils down to cops who are too lazy to spend a few hours to stay within the constitution.
2012-08-22 03:10:52 PM
1 votes:

Giltric: Solution.....talk to all local landlords and ask them for a key to the house/apartment and permission to enter their property to answer a complaint.


That's not how US law works.

The resident of a house has 4th amendment rights, not just the landlord. Even if the landlord gives the police a key, they still need a warrant. (And thank god we don't have a 2-class 4th amendment, one for home owners and another for renters. We have enough class division as it is.)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The 4th Amendment, it's your friend.
2012-08-22 03:08:14 PM
1 votes:

consider this: lennavan: I love that you keep pretending like this is about some guy at home alone playing his music too loud so the cop shows up to politely ask him to stop. Frickin love it. Hey man, I can't argue against your imagination. When reality comes back to you, we can talk about how they want you to answer the door so they can look beyond you for all the tickets they can write. I now return you to your imagination that actually thinks cops can't just knock on the door and use their voice through the door to demand they turn the music down.

Yes, cops are out to fark you over any chance they get.
Let it go man, they were just doing their job when they told you not to skateboard in the bank parking lot.


In a nice way but yeah. I got pulled over a few years ago, my taillight was out. That was kind of him to let me know. Do you think he cares about my safety? What a kind gentleman. Not sure why he needed to run my license, registration and see my proof of insurance to kindly inform me of my safety risk. In chatting with him he kindly asked me how old my son sitting in the back seat was. What a nice guy, inquiring about my family. We were getting to be friends it seemed. Probably just a coincidence my kid was just barely old enough at the time to sit in the back without a child restraint. He didn't even give me a citation for the taillight. I'm sure that's what he does all day long, helps notify people of the repairs needed to their vehicles.

By the way, I've actually had really farking good experiences with cops and have a wildly favorable view of them. But holy fark are you a tard if you think this is about anything other than generating revenue.
2012-08-22 02:53:44 PM
1 votes:

The Muthaship: cig-mkr: And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.

In other news, it just got harder to get your roommate to put his name on the lease....


You may have pinpointed a flaw in the whole setup under this ordinance. When I was in my 20s, I lived in six difference shared-housing arrangements where my name wasn't on anything. In some of the places, NO ONE who lived there had their name on a lease, and the landlords had no idea who actually lived there and didn't care as long as the rent got paid. In that case, there's no one the cops could cite on their ticket.

///remember one place where we got a lot of arrest warrants in the mail for someone who hadn't lived there for years.....
2012-08-22 02:47:10 PM
1 votes:
They should enforce it against the jackasses with thumping woofers going down the street rattling windows at 3 a.m. as well. Noise nuisance is a noise nuisance whether you're being a jerk at home or cruising around or just running straight pipes on your Harley. A few $1000 fines would be a far better use of the officers' time than nabbbing people going 6 mph over the speed limit.
2012-08-22 02:40:48 PM
1 votes:

consider this: lennavan: Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time.

Those stats do not include cases where officers can't make contact with the people in the home.


That is correct, those stats do not reflect any of the cases where the cops have no evidence. It's sad, you have clearly forgotten why the fourth amendment exists. I'm not the right person to teach you, I'll just end up being a dick about it.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]
2012-08-22 02:37:57 PM
1 votes:

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Scenario 1: The cops knock on your door, you open it, they tell you they've had some noise complaints and don't come into the house and discover anything that you might be doing that they'd have grounds to arrest you for.


That probably worked until the cops abused the privilege.

If they cops were just asking the kids to quiet down, they'd answer the door. Why are they no longer answering the door? Because instead of just asking them to quiet down, cops often use an open door to find probably cause. For instance, were they see anyone at the party whom to their eyes might, possibly, maybe be under 21 and drinking a beverage, it could be used as probable cause to enter the premises. Once inside, they could search for further cause to arrest individuals or shut down the party.

If this ordnance passes, there's an easy and cheap solution available to the party houses. Build a DIY internal alcove with a secondary door. If done with 2x4's and plywood, it would probably cost all of a few hundred bucks. It could basically be a large piece of furniture. It wouldn't even need to be attacked to the interior of the house.

When the cops knock, the designated soberish and responsible pre-law student opens and locks the internal door behind them, answers the main door and has a pleasant conversation with the officer. A video + audio camera inside the alcove should be set up to record these encounters - a sign indicating the electronic monitoring should be prominently displayed .

Knowing about the video monitoring, the cop will be on his best behavior. The kids will be told to turn down the music and the cop will be on his way. Since they answered the door, this proposed ordinance won't come into play and there will be no fine. Since the cop cannot see the actual party, he can have no probable cause to enter. Even if he tried, the residents would not open the interior door until the exterior door was locked and the alcove was cop-less. 

Taa-Daa
2012-08-22 02:37:24 PM
1 votes:
Next up... Cops go knocking on every door in town and anyone who doesn't answer gets a $750 fine the first time and then $1000 the second time.
2012-08-22 02:35:58 PM
1 votes:

Mr Guy: lennavan: The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?

The current numbers are for people who participated in the current system. The current numbers do not capture the people who figured out they can just ignore the cops.


What you're saying here is if cops get to charge you without evidence, you'll bust more people? I agree.
Or were you saying if cops get to search your house without a warrant, you'll catch more criminals? Because I agree there as well. Makes you wonder why the fark we make cops get a warrant and have evidence for anything, right?
2012-08-22 02:31:44 PM
1 votes:

consider this: Does everybody just go full retard whenever there's an article involving the police?


A lot of people sure do. Check out this dumbass who thinks it's impossible for cops to ask people to keep the noise down without entering their home:

consider this: The simple solution here is for the cops to show up, tell the people to keep the noise down and then be on their way. Dickheads are being dicks and not answering the door, meaning that the only way the cops can make contact is to get a warrant and kick in the door.


I bet he thinks there's an imaginary force outside the house that prevents people from talking and the doors are always soundproof. What a dumbass!

consider this: Once word gets around the the dickheads that there's a substantial fine for being a dick, they'll stop being dicks and answering the door. Better yet, maybe they'll stop being dicks and not make so much noise in the first place.

College dicks are dicks.

/dicks


Here's the thing - I'm not on the side of the college kids on this one. But it is what it is. This ordinance has absolutely nothing to do with keeping noise down. Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time. Why do we need to change that? We don't. They want to change it anyways because it's not about noise violations you dipshiat.
2012-08-22 02:30:06 PM
1 votes:

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Because that wouldn't result in arrests, which look great come budget time. If you get a chance to wander around a college party, you're going to find a bunch of petty nonsense: underage drinking, maybe some marijuana if you're lucky. Suddenly you are no longer essentially a meter maid, you are an ainti crime crusader whose job must be protected.

CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.
2012-08-22 02:25:31 PM
1 votes:

Flakeloaf: Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.

^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems. This is about people in noisy houses who can't or won't answer teh door when someone asks them to turn their shiat off. Usually that's a courtesy call before your loud noise by-law kicks in and people start getting fines. This city's council has just taken away that privilege.

Solution: Turn your stereo down or invite your neighbours over.


Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.
2012-08-22 02:18:04 PM
1 votes:
In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

He's got a good point, civil rights are kinda a waste of time.

I mean, it's worth their time to ticket some underage kids at their residence for drinking alcohol (gasp!111!!) but following the constitution, fark, they're not made of time okay, they have murders and stuff to solve.
2012-08-22 02:18:02 PM
1 votes:

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Because that way doesn't have the potential for abuse later on down the line.
2012-08-22 12:55:10 PM
1 votes:
Oh States rights, is there anything you can't violate. Who would have thought allowing every state, county and city to pass arbitrary laws would be a bad idea? It's much better to fight for your constitutional rights on 4 levels of government.
2012-08-22 11:59:21 AM
1 votes:
"The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.
2012-08-22 11:56:51 AM
1 votes:
No need for alarm, it's just for when the little douchebags throw parties and feel that they don't have to answer to their neighbor's pleas that they tone it down a bit. I'll withdraw support the instant this is used to bust anyone and everyone for the sake of revenue. That should take about a week or so.

Mangoose: Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic?


Slightly off-topic, but idiots in my state don't seem to realize that, as imperfect as our marijuana legislation is right now, it'd make it so that you can answer the door to cops with a joint in your hand and they won't be able to touch you for it. Rawrgle fargle.
2012-08-22 11:47:12 AM
1 votes:

Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.


You're assuming the people in question have the time and money to sue the city.
2012-08-22 11:46:49 AM
1 votes:

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.


Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.
2012-08-22 11:42:12 AM
1 votes:

Aarontology: Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.

Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.


It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Scenario 1: The cops knock on your door, you open it, they tell you they've had some noise complaints and don't come into the house and discover anything that you might be doing that they'd have grounds to arrest you for.


Scenario 2: The cops know that people throwing parties aren't answering the door to them, so they don't bother until they've got a warrant. The first you know about the noise complaint is when the cops bust in your front door with a nice legal excuse to search the place.
 
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