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(The Gazette)   Problem: College students who know their legal rights are refusing to let the police enter their homes when they knock. Solution: Make that a civil offense, with fines up to $1000 per offense   (thegazette.com) divider line 253
    More: Scary, Iowa City, Iowa, local ordinance, Iowa City Press-Citizen, disorderly house, police Chief Sam Hargadine  
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20607 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2012 at 2:10 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-22 11:26:22 AM
In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

Following the Constitution is not a good use of his officers' time.
 
2012-08-22 11:31:28 AM
On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.
 
2012-08-22 11:33:18 AM
Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

Cops? Pro-tip here: Maybe you shouldn't be dumb, okay? I know it's hard when you decide to start hiring tech-school rejects and roid-happy gym-rats, but, seriously, try to understand what laws are and how they work. It'll keep you from looking like complete imbeciles.
 
2012-08-22 11:33:26 AM
It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.
 
2012-08-22 11:36:08 AM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.


And?
 
2012-08-22 11:38:31 AM

Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

And?


Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.
 
2012-08-22 11:39:48 AM

Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.


Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.
 
2012-08-22 11:42:12 AM

Aarontology: Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.

Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.


It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Scenario 1: The cops knock on your door, you open it, they tell you they've had some noise complaints and don't come into the house and discover anything that you might be doing that they'd have grounds to arrest you for.


Scenario 2: The cops know that people throwing parties aren't answering the door to them, so they don't bother until they've got a warrant. The first you know about the noise complaint is when the cops bust in your front door with a nice legal excuse to search the place.
 
2012-08-22 11:46:49 AM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.


Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.
 
2012-08-22 11:47:12 AM

Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.


You're assuming the people in question have the time and money to sue the city.
 
2012-08-22 11:49:40 AM

Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.


At the moment, anyways. The law is not some stone tablet forged upon a mountain top. It's a book written and rewritten by millions upon millions of people every day. If enough people want to make a law, they will. Whether the legality of that law holds can take a long time to decide.
 
2012-08-22 11:51:31 AM

Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.


But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?
 
2012-08-22 11:54:04 AM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?


Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.
 
2012-08-22 11:55:05 AM

Mangoose: Elandriel: Gonna have to second this. The cops can come back with a warrant. It's not illegal to ignore someone at your front door, last I checked.

At the moment, anyways. The law is not some stone tablet forged upon a mountain top. It's a book written and rewritten by millions upon millions of people every day. If enough people want to make a law, they will. Whether the legality of that law holds can take a long time to decide.


Well given the SC precedent you can imagine that, if this law is made, and challenged, it will eventually end up with Scalia or Alito or someone saying not only can cops bust down doors without even bothering to knock, but we're all criminals for disagreeing with that, and in fact the civil penalty now includes jail time. Also you forfeit your house.
 
2012-08-22 11:56:51 AM
No need for alarm, it's just for when the little douchebags throw parties and feel that they don't have to answer to their neighbor's pleas that they tone it down a bit. I'll withdraw support the instant this is used to bust anyone and everyone for the sake of revenue. That should take about a week or so.

Mangoose: Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic?


Slightly off-topic, but idiots in my state don't seem to realize that, as imperfect as our marijuana legislation is right now, it'd make it so that you can answer the door to cops with a joint in your hand and they won't be able to touch you for it. Rawrgle fargle.
 
2012-08-22 11:58:14 AM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?


They're probably gambling on them not bothering with the warrant over a noise complaint. Or they figure it'll give them time to get rid of everything illegal for when the cops do show up .
 
2012-08-22 11:59:21 AM
"The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.
 
2012-08-22 12:06:14 PM

Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

They're probably gambling on them not bothering with the warrant over a noise complaint. Or they figure it'll give them time to get rid of everything illegal for when the cops do show up .


Aah, I think that's where you're misunderstanding what I think will happen. Perhaps the first time it happens the police will knock, wait, and then come back with a warrant. Maybe.

Pretty soon though, they'll just start getting warrants before they go round, and the first the party goers will know about it is when the door is kicked in.

It's not hard to imagine a judge deciding that a loud party in a house inhabited by college students previously known to refuse to answer the door to police is probable cause to believe there will be underage drinking.
 
2012-08-22 12:16:08 PM
After reading the article, it doesn't sound THAT bad. It looks like the city has an ordinance where, if you are a "disorderly house" you are fined. The rules say the police have to come to your house twice for noise complaints before anything is done, and you aren't instantly fined, there is a review process first.. Now, if you refuse to answer your door, the review process is started right away, and the city housing inspectors are told your house needs to be reviewed to see if it is disorderly and if they should or shouldn't be fined. If you disagree with the fine (if you are eventually fined) you can show up in court and dispute it, like a speeding ticket.

The article was a little light on the details, but that's what I pieced together from it.
 
2012-08-22 12:20:15 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

They're probably gambling on them not bothering with the warrant over a noise complaint. Or they figure it'll give them time to get rid of everything illegal for when the cops do show up .

Aah, I think that's where you're misunderstanding what I think will happen. Perhaps the first time it happens the police will knock, wait, and then come back with a warrant. Maybe.

Pretty soon though, they'll just start getting warrants before they go round, and the first the party goers will know about it is when the door is kicked in.

It's not hard to imagine a judge deciding that a loud party in a house inhabited by college students previously known to refuse to answer the door to police is probable cause to believe there will be underage drinking.


ohhhh. Yeah, I see what you're getting at now. Good point.
 
2012-08-22 12:32:37 PM

GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.


For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.

For the second, that's an awfully generous assumption. I'd argue less than 2 years.
 
2012-08-22 12:36:57 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.


True, but anything "in plain sight" is entirely fair game, related to the original warrant or not. So unless the partygoers are in the habit of putting, for example, all of their drugs and paraphernalia away and out of sight during the party, they're still farked.
 
2012-08-22 12:38:34 PM
Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?
 
2012-08-22 12:39:42 PM

Aarontology: In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

Following the Constitution is not a good use of his officers' time.


When asked for comment he said "The Constitution is too damn annoying. We do want we want. Whateva! We do what we want"
img.photobucket.com
^Actual pic of Police Chief
 
2012-08-22 12:49:14 PM
Die, pigs
 
2012-08-22 12:55:10 PM
Oh States rights, is there anything you can't violate. Who would have thought allowing every state, county and city to pass arbitrary laws would be a bad idea? It's much better to fight for your constitutional rights on 4 levels of government.
 
2012-08-22 12:56:27 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?


That's usually the best way to handle cops randomly showing up at your house, anyway.
 
2012-08-22 12:57:18 PM

Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.


So, if you had a time machine, once you killed Hitler the first thing you'd do is go back and sodomize high school you with a baseball bat. Good to know, fascist dick.

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


You sound old and unlikeable.
/Also fascist.
 
2012-08-22 01:31:29 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.

For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.

For the second, that's an awfully generous assumption. I'd argue less than 2 years.


That's cute, you think there are still limits to the power of a police search.
 
2012-08-22 01:33:54 PM
I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?
 
2012-08-22 02:05:48 PM

GAT_00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.

For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.

For the second, that's an awfully generous assumption. I'd argue less than 2 years.

That's cute, you think there are still limits to the power of a police search.


Have your Fourth Amendment protections from bullshiat search and seizure been violated? Thank a drug prohibitionist.
 
2012-08-22 02:14:42 PM
Laws are for little people.

Suck it plebes.
 
2012-08-22 02:16:04 PM

GAT_00: Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

You're assuming the people in question have the time and money to sue the city.


We are talking college kids here. We can assume that one of these precious beings has a mommy or daddy ready with the "...never done anything wrong before and is very sorry about this so MEET MY farkING LAWYER..." statement.
 
2012-08-22 02:17:05 PM

Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.


^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems. This is about people in noisy houses who can't or won't answer teh door when someone asks them to turn their shiat off. Usually that's a courtesy call before your loud noise by-law kicks in and people start getting fines. This city's council has just taken away that privilege.

Solution: Turn your stereo down or invite your neighbours over.
 
2012-08-22 02:17:25 PM
Inch by inch,step by step,America has become a police state. If their were laws in place that enforced decibel levels at certain hours i can understand it but this is far too arbitrary.
 
2012-08-22 02:17:52 PM
Just have the first cop dressed in a pizza delivery outfit with a box. I guarantee they'll answer the door.
 
2012-08-22 02:18:02 PM

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Because that way doesn't have the potential for abuse later on down the line.
 
2012-08-22 02:18:04 PM
In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

He's got a good point, civil rights are kinda a waste of time.

I mean, it's worth their time to ticket some underage kids at their residence for drinking alcohol (gasp!111!!) but following the constitution, fark, they're not made of time okay, they have murders and stuff to solve.
 
2012-08-22 02:18:11 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but if the cops come to a party that is obviously a nuisance, isn't that a violation of the law and aren't they permitted to enter at that point? Just bring a vid cam to CYA and the cops should be fine.
 
2012-08-22 02:19:12 PM
31 posts and no Pinkman?

i.qkme.me
 
2012-08-22 02:19:12 PM
Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??
 
2012-08-22 02:19:22 PM

Aarontology: Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.


Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it's be another matter

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-08-22 02:19:48 PM
Make your 'Disturbing the Peace' charge something a little above a minor misdemeanor, then after a reasonable attempt to get them to answer, kick the f*cking door in.
 
2012-08-22 02:19:50 PM
latimesblogs.latimes.com
I AM THE LAW
 
2012-08-22 02:20:10 PM
America: fark, yeah.

Or "Sieg heil", as required.
 
2012-08-22 02:20:46 PM
"rental property regulations"

So if your parents are out of town and the party is at their house, carry on.
 
2012-08-22 02:21:09 PM

InfrasonicTom: GAT_00: Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

You're assuming the people in question have the time and money to sue the city.

We are talking college kids here. We can assume that one of these precious beings has a mommy or daddy ready with the "...never done anything wrong before and is very sorry about this so MEET MY farkING LAWYER..." statement.


Given the cost of tuition these days - might be able to get a bit more out of the city...
 
2012-08-22 02:21:48 PM

Ryan2065: After reading the article, it doesn't sound THAT bad. It looks like the city has an ordinance where, if you are a "disorderly house" you are fined. The rules say the police have to come to your house twice for noise complaints before anything is done, and you aren't instantly fined, there is a review process first.. Now, if you refuse to answer your door, the review process is started right away, and the city housing inspectors are told your house needs to be reviewed to see if it is disorderly and if they should or shouldn't be fined. If you disagree with the fine (if you are eventually fined) you can show up in court and dispute it, like a speeding ticket.

The article was a little light on the details, but that's what I pieced together from it.


Pretty much came to say this. I was even going to make a comparison to speeding cameras, where they fine you even though they don't know if it was you driving...similar to fining all the tenants even if they don't know you were at the party.
 
2012-08-22 02:21:49 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?


Dave's not here.
 
2012-08-22 02:21:51 PM
As somone that lived in a house in Iowa City that frequently made over $1,000 each time we hosted a kegger, I'm getting a kick out of these responses.
 
2012-08-22 02:22:07 PM

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


...that's pretty much exactly what's going on, here.
 
2012-08-22 02:22:41 PM

Flakeloaf: Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.

^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems.


Uh, yeah it actually does. It's about looking for underage drinking and pot smokers. Look how amazingly successful the current system was:

Currently, if there's a disorderly house and there's a criminal complaint, that triggers a letter being sent to all of the tenants and the landlord. A second complaint results in a mandatory meeting.

Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses, said Doug Boothroy, Iowa City's director of housing and inspection services.


The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?
 
2012-08-22 02:23:19 PM

Aarontology: Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.


Yes. Yes it would.
 
2012-08-22 02:23:25 PM

Mangoose: That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore..


How YOU doin'?
 
2012-08-22 02:23:31 PM
And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.
 
2012-08-22 02:23:47 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: Aarontology: Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.

Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it's be another matter

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 484x317]


LOL...I was just about to make the same reference, then noticed he said "entirely".

I guess you just said "fark it"...I like your style.
 
2012-08-22 02:24:11 PM

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Yeah that seems to make much more sense than risking getting all those tickets thrown out... The ACLU would have a field day.
 
2012-08-22 02:24:37 PM
Just call it a $1,000 tax if they refuse to let the police in. Problem solved.

/what, you thought the Constitution meant anything anymore?
 
2012-08-22 02:25:06 PM
I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them

yea there are tricks, like if you don't go in someone could be hurt/killed
or evidence could be destroyed
" I heard someone yelling as if they were being injured"
done

cops do what the chief tells them to.
the chief is told what to do by the city council/ mayor etc.
if you don't want a routine call for a complaint
keep it the fark down or invite yer stuffy neighbor so there is no complaint.

seems so simple to avoid trouble
 
2012-08-22 02:25:07 PM

cig-mkr: And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.


In other news, it just got harder to get your roommate to put his name on the lease....
 
2012-08-22 02:25:15 PM

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


Dude, we have politicians that believe it's their duty to save us from the evils of large soda sizes - you think lowering the alcohol drinking age is going to fly?

/wish we could - it's not helping.
//thanks MADD - you Neo-Prohibitionists.
 
2012-08-22 02:25:31 PM

Flakeloaf: Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.

^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems. This is about people in noisy houses who can't or won't answer teh door when someone asks them to turn their shiat off. Usually that's a courtesy call before your loud noise by-law kicks in and people start getting fines. This city's council has just taken away that privilege.

Solution: Turn your stereo down or invite your neighbours over.


Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.
 
2012-08-22 02:25:47 PM

SandMann: I'm not a lawyer, but if the cops come to a party that is obviously a nuisance, isn't that a violation of the law and aren't they permitted to enter at that point? Just bring a vid cam to CYA and the cops should be fine.


Yeah, this the part I don't get. If you observe a party being illegally loud when you show up, how is that not probably cause to serve the criminal noise complaint to whoever is present. If it's a criminal complaint to be that loud, why would you need a warrant?
 
2012-08-22 02:26:13 PM

Emposter: Ryan2065: After reading the article, it doesn't sound THAT bad. It looks like the city has an ordinance where, if you are a "disorderly house" you are fined. The rules say the police have to come to your house twice for noise complaints before anything is done, and you aren't instantly fined, there is a review process first.. Now, if you refuse to answer your door, the review process is started right away, and the city housing inspectors are told your house needs to be reviewed to see if it is disorderly and if they should or shouldn't be fined. If you disagree with the fine (if you are eventually fined) you can show up in court and dispute it, like a speeding ticket.

The article was a little light on the details, but that's what I pieced together from it.

Pretty much came to say this. I was even going to make a comparison to speeding cameras, where they fine you even though they don't know if it was you driving...similar to fining all the tenants even if they don't know you were at the party.


yeah, and making it a civil and not a criminal matter allows the issue to pass constitutional muster.

/ had a case here for camera tickets. since it was a criminal violation, it was constitutional. so, the people won. their remedy, legislators retroactively changed the law to civil, keep everyone's fines to date. what a victory
 
2012-08-22 02:26:55 PM

lennavan: The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?


The current numbers are for people who participated in the current system. The current numbers do not capture the people who figured out they can just ignore the cops.
 
2012-08-22 02:28:31 PM

Hydra: Just call it a $1,000 tax if they refuse to let the police in. Problem solved.

/what, you thought the Constitution meant anything anymore?


i know people love to say anymore, but it probably means more now (since the 70s) then it ever did when it comes to individual liberties.

/ back in the day, you could be tortured by cops to confess, so long as it wasn't in the court room.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:30 PM

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


Not if you like federal funding for roads.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:30 PM

Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.


Medical Cannabis and violation of the ADA.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:50 PM
fta: "Council member Terry Dickens said he did a ride along with police one night and saw officers knock on an apartment door for several minutes with a party going on inside."

How am I supposed to sleep at night knowing that, somewhere, college students are having a party. I demand protection for me and my family!
 
2012-08-22 02:30:06 PM

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Because that wouldn't result in arrests, which look great come budget time. If you get a chance to wander around a college party, you're going to find a bunch of petty nonsense: underage drinking, maybe some marijuana if you're lucky. Suddenly you are no longer essentially a meter maid, you are an ainti crime crusader whose job must be protected.

CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.
 
2012-08-22 02:30:35 PM
Pretend I put a question mark after the word party.
 
2012-08-22 02:31:44 PM

consider this: Does everybody just go full retard whenever there's an article involving the police?


A lot of people sure do. Check out this dumbass who thinks it's impossible for cops to ask people to keep the noise down without entering their home:

consider this: The simple solution here is for the cops to show up, tell the people to keep the noise down and then be on their way. Dickheads are being dicks and not answering the door, meaning that the only way the cops can make contact is to get a warrant and kick in the door.


I bet he thinks there's an imaginary force outside the house that prevents people from talking and the doors are always soundproof. What a dumbass!

consider this: Once word gets around the the dickheads that there's a substantial fine for being a dick, they'll stop being dicks and answering the door. Better yet, maybe they'll stop being dicks and not make so much noise in the first place.

College dicks are dicks.

/dicks


Here's the thing - I'm not on the side of the college kids on this one. But it is what it is. This ordinance has absolutely nothing to do with keeping noise down. Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time. Why do we need to change that? We don't. They want to change it anyways because it's not about noise violations you dipshiat.
 
2012-08-22 02:31:51 PM
Duck out a side or back door and walk up behind them and if you can help them.

Did it many times . Cops just want you to know that you are out of control and you need to real it in. Now the 2nd time they come back there better be less people and no one out in street dancing in their toga. Then it gets all cuffy.
 
2012-08-22 02:34:33 PM
Call the landlord or hoa instead of the police. They can consider it an emergency and enter with their key.
 
2012-08-22 02:35:55 PM
Subby doesn't understand the Constitution. The fourth amendment does not give us a right to refuse to obey the lawful directions and orders of peace officer. We have the right to refuse an unlawful search or seizure. Actually the city council here is doing these kids a favor. It is a misdemeanor offense to disobey a police officer; one can go to jail for doing it. The Iowa City council is making the refusal to answer the door for a police officer a civil offense that can be punished by a simple citation. A civil offense doesn't generate a criminal record, while a misdemeanor does.
 
2012-08-22 02:35:58 PM

Mr Guy: lennavan: The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?

The current numbers are for people who participated in the current system. The current numbers do not capture the people who figured out they can just ignore the cops.


What you're saying here is if cops get to charge you without evidence, you'll bust more people? I agree.
Or were you saying if cops get to search your house without a warrant, you'll catch more criminals? Because I agree there as well. Makes you wonder why the fark we make cops get a warrant and have evidence for anything, right?
 
2012-08-22 02:37:24 PM
Next up... Cops go knocking on every door in town and anyone who doesn't answer gets a $750 fine the first time and then $1000 the second time.
 
2012-08-22 02:37:24 PM

violentsalvation: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?

That's usually the best way to handle cops randomly showing up at your house, anyway.


well that and not talking to them as much as you can avoid it. answer verbally, then ask them to leave.
 
2012-08-22 02:37:57 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Scenario 1: The cops knock on your door, you open it, they tell you they've had some noise complaints and don't come into the house and discover anything that you might be doing that they'd have grounds to arrest you for.


That probably worked until the cops abused the privilege.

If they cops were just asking the kids to quiet down, they'd answer the door. Why are they no longer answering the door? Because instead of just asking them to quiet down, cops often use an open door to find probably cause. For instance, were they see anyone at the party whom to their eyes might, possibly, maybe be under 21 and drinking a beverage, it could be used as probable cause to enter the premises. Once inside, they could search for further cause to arrest individuals or shut down the party.

If this ordnance passes, there's an easy and cheap solution available to the party houses. Build a DIY internal alcove with a secondary door. If done with 2x4's and plywood, it would probably cost all of a few hundred bucks. It could basically be a large piece of furniture. It wouldn't even need to be attacked to the interior of the house.

When the cops knock, the designated soberish and responsible pre-law student opens and locks the internal door behind them, answers the main door and has a pleasant conversation with the officer. A video + audio camera inside the alcove should be set up to record these encounters - a sign indicating the electronic monitoring should be prominently displayed .

Knowing about the video monitoring, the cop will be on his best behavior. The kids will be told to turn down the music and the cop will be on his way. Since they answered the door, this proposed ordinance won't come into play and there will be no fine. Since the cop cannot see the actual party, he can have no probable cause to enter. Even if he tried, the residents would not open the interior door until the exterior door was locked and the alcove was cop-less. 

Taa-Daa
 
2012-08-22 02:38:06 PM
Step 1: Throw noisy party
Step 2: Invite the pigs in
Step 3: Shoot them, rob the corpse
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

/all I ever needed to know I learned from bad influences
 
2012-08-22 02:39:53 PM
Every time I was at a party that was loud enough for a complaint, it has been do damn loud that there is no way we could have possibly heard the cops knocking so its not like the cops are being ignored and people are refusing to come to the door, they just cant be heard.
 
2012-08-22 02:40:48 PM

consider this: lennavan: Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time.

Those stats do not include cases where officers can't make contact with the people in the home.


That is correct, those stats do not reflect any of the cases where the cops have no evidence. It's sad, you have clearly forgotten why the fourth amendment exists. I'm not the right person to teach you, I'll just end up being a dick about it.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]
 
2012-08-22 02:41:16 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


Most leases have a clause stating that excessive noise violates the lease. All the cops have to do is take a tape recorded along and record it outside the door. Instant Evidence!
 
2012-08-22 02:42:02 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?


"Candygram..."
 
2012-08-22 02:42:10 PM

natas6.0: I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them


I hate them too. Literate people are so stuck-up and high and mighty with their books and newspapers. Screw them.
 
2012-08-22 02:42:19 PM
Ok, I get the constitutional arguments and I agree with them. However, We do get call after call after call from pised off neighbors who demand the police enforce the peace disturbance laws. So let me ask, what would be a reasonable yet constitutionally protective way to handle these calls while at the same time understanding we can't spend all farking night on one noise complaint?

/hate these calls as a cop
//biggest violator of these laws when I was in college
 
2012-08-22 02:42:23 PM

rubi_con_man: All the cops have to do is take a tape recorded along and record it outside the door. Instant Evidence!


Oh dear....
 
2012-08-22 02:42:35 PM

umad: [latimesblogs.latimes.com image 500x287]
I AM THE LUH


FIFY

The remake better not change this.
 
2012-08-22 02:43:52 PM
I just moved to DC. My roommates threw a housewarming jam for a few friends, and the cops were called. The cops showed up, asked us to turn it down, then offered the following suggesting to one of my roommates: "Quit smoking weed, too. We don't want to have to come back."

Why yes, we are white - why do you ask?

// cops in NW DC have better things to do than tell us to keep it down
// they had to yell over the gunfire
 
2012-08-22 02:43:53 PM

consider this: lennavan: That is correct, those stats do not reflect any of the cases where the cops have no evidence.

Yes responding to a complaint and finding music blaring out of the home isn't proof of anything, especially a noise complaint.


So why again do they need to enter?
 
2012-08-22 02:44:34 PM
College students being self-absorbed asshats annoying everyone within a city block around them while avoiding any social responsibility? Wow, there's a surprise.

A noise ordinance. The horror! Someone dust off a copy of the constitution and start gibbering about it.
 
2012-08-22 02:44:52 PM

Lunaville: natas6.0: I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them

I hate them too. Literate people are so stuck-up and high and mighty with their books and iPads. Screw them.


FTFY nobody reads newspapers
 
2012-08-22 02:45:02 PM

syberpud: Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??

Dude, we have politicians that believe it's their duty to save us from the evils of large soda sizes - you think lowering the alcohol drinking age is going to fly?

/wish we could - it's not helping.
//thanks MADD - you Neo-Prohibitionists.


The irony in MADDs' push to limit drunk driving and how that has been interpreted legally is that most drunk driving incidents are committed by people in their 40s and 50s per a friend who is a former cop.
 
2012-08-22 02:45:36 PM

GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.


You know how I know you don't know the meaning of conservative?
 
2012-08-22 02:46:09 PM
The City Council voted

Shocking! local government trampling on rights, we should give them more power to trample even more rights, amirite??
 
2012-08-22 02:46:58 PM

robbiex0r: Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.


Sorry, my bad. I'm used to living in a civilized country where police tell the by-law people to handle by-laws, the by-law folks show up to ask everyone to be drunken idiots quietly and the stoners hold their breath until the nice man with the big ticket book is gone.
 
2012-08-22 02:47:10 PM
They should enforce it against the jackasses with thumping woofers going down the street rattling windows at 3 a.m. as well. Noise nuisance is a noise nuisance whether you're being a jerk at home or cruising around or just running straight pipes on your Harley. A few $1000 fines would be a far better use of the officers' time than nabbbing people going 6 mph over the speed limit.
 
2012-08-22 02:47:29 PM

Headso: local government trampling on rights, we should give them more power


No, dammit! That's the federal government's job!
 
2012-08-22 02:48:10 PM
Not a lawyer, so maybe a real one could fill in the blanks here, but if the town had some sort of noise ordinance and the police:

1) Received a noise complaint at a residence, and
2) Arrived at said residence and while standing outside heard incredibly loud noises,

Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?
 
2012-08-22 02:48:25 PM

consider this: Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged.

Amazing how people believe the bullshiat lie in subby's headline instead of reading the farking article.


"Welcome to Fark"

YoureNewHereArentYou.jpg
 
2012-08-22 02:48:41 PM

consider this: Dickheads are being dicks and not answering the door


And why do you think that is?

Could it possibly, maybe have a little something to do with cops using an open door to look inside for probable cause, then using that probable cause to enter the party and charge their visitors with crimes?

If the cops were simply asking them to turn down the music, they'd answer the door. This is clearly a response to an over-reach by the cops.

As I said in a post above, the students just need to build some interior alcoves. It would allow them to answer the door while preventing the cops from seeing inside, problem solved.
 
2012-08-22 02:50:38 PM
From how the article was written, it sounds like tenants and landlord would be charged with a disorderly house if the renters refused to answer the door regardless of why the police were there. The article talked about parties as the excuse but nowhere did they say that party houses are the only ones affected.

How do they know that tenants are home? How do they know that tenants who are home aren't taking a shower or playing WoW and can't even hear the officer at the door?

This is just a $1000 ticket for bruising someone's ego and for exerting Constitutional rights. Freedom isn't free, Iowa City just put a price tag on it.
 
2012-08-22 02:52:01 PM

snocone: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?

Dave's not here.


No, man; it's me... I'm Dave

/ I got the stuff
 
2012-08-22 02:52:44 PM
Currently, if there's a disorderly house and there's a criminal complaint, that triggers a letter being sent to all of the tenants and the landlord. A second complaint results in a mandatory meeting.

Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses,


oh it gets even better, the problem isn't even an existent one.
 
2012-08-22 02:52:53 PM

JackieRabbit: Subby doesn't understand the Constitution. The fourth amendment does not give us a right to refuse to obey the lawful directions and orders of peace officer. We have the right to refuse an unlawful search or seizure. Actually the city council here is doing these kids a favor. It is a misdemeanor offense to disobey a police officer; one can go to jail for doing it. The Iowa City council is making the refusal to answer the door for a police officer a civil offense that can be punished by a simple citation. A civil offense doesn't generate a criminal record, while a misdemeanor does.


yes, but you don't have to answer your door. thus, not answering is not refusing to obey the lawful directions and orders of a police officer. also, the airlock solution proposed by RandomRandom was the first thing that came to my mind. the one can answer, but the cops couldn't see inside (of course there's still the "i smell weed" pc excuse). in general why not just fine the shiat out of property owners for repeated noise violations? no one needs to answer the door for the officer to note the violation of a given noise ordinance and mail off a citation.  what you think landlords won't solve this if there are fines being dropped on them?
 
2012-08-22 02:53:10 PM
And this is the destruction of the 4th amendment how exactly? Where is the unreasonable search or seizure?

How about a parking ticket? Do I have to track you down and hand it to you? No. If you didn't park your car in the handicapped spot you come to court and plead your case.

So you are having a loud party and wont answer the door for a warning, fine. Per your 4th amendment rights I cannot enter to get you to quiet down but a violation was committed and you are getting a citation or whatever this municipality calls it. If you weren't at your house when the loud party was happening you come to court and plead your case.

Someone, somewhere actually took the time to think about going process of getting a search warrant to issue a citation and came up with the right answer. You don't need one. There is no search, there is no seizure.

The people complaining the most about this should love it. What happens when I enter your college party on a valid search warrant for a stupid noise complaint? How many potential possession, contributing, and underage drinking charges you think I could get in 15 minutes?

The owner could come outside and either get a warning or a citation. if they don't the officer doesn't have that discretion anymore.

/if I can't warn I put the citation in the mailbox. If you don't pay or it get's lost, they send you another copy with a nice letter reminding you.
 
2012-08-22 02:53:43 PM
If I am at a party at your house, and the cops knock, does my opening of the door (even though I don't live at the house or have any authotity there) still give cops the right to peer in?
If I'm in a grocery store, and my friend is waiting in my car, he cannot give consent to search the car if a cop walks up to him. How would this be different?
 
2012-08-22 02:53:44 PM

The Muthaship: cig-mkr: And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.

In other news, it just got harder to get your roommate to put his name on the lease....


You may have pinpointed a flaw in the whole setup under this ordinance. When I was in my 20s, I lived in six difference shared-housing arrangements where my name wasn't on anything. In some of the places, NO ONE who lived there had their name on a lease, and the landlords had no idea who actually lived there and didn't care as long as the rent got paid. In that case, there's no one the cops could cite on their ticket.

///remember one place where we got a lot of arrest warrants in the mail for someone who hadn't lived there for years.....
 
2012-08-22 02:54:08 PM

consider this: lennavan: So why again do they need to enter?

Who said they need to enter, other than subby? Stop choosing to believe every anti-cop piece of drivel that some cop hating moron posts. Cops do not enter your home when responding to a noise complaint unless you open the door and there's a big pile of coke on the coffee table or a human sacrifice going on.


C'mon now.. Be a realist. Cops frequently overstep their bound and figure out the law later.
 
2012-08-22 02:55:09 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: College students being self-absorbed asshats annoying everyone within a city block around them while avoiding any social responsibility? Wow, there's a surprise.

A noise ordinance. The horror! Someone dust off a copy of the constitution and start gibbering about it.


I know! If only there was some place besides a college town these lovers of absolute peace and quiet could live... I live at a tourist beach, and I am constantly going to city council meetings to introduce ordinances to keep these damn tourists away.
 
2012-08-22 02:55:20 PM

Headso: Currently, if there's a disorderly house and there's a criminal complaint, that triggers a letter being sent to all of the tenants and the landlord. A second complaint results in a mandatory meeting.

Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses,

oh it gets even better, the problem isn't even an existent one.


The problem is the cops don't like people disrespecting them by refusing to answer the door, so someone's gotta be punished.
 
2012-08-22 02:55:34 PM

Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

Cops? Pro-tip here: Maybe you shouldn't be dumb, okay? I know it's hard when you decide to start hiring tech-school rejects and roid-happy gym-rats, but, seriously, try to understand what laws are and how they work. It'll keep you from looking like complete imbeciles.


.
.
Cops pass laws? Perhaps you should try reading the WHOLE article.
 
2012-08-22 02:55:39 PM

Dog Welder: Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?


Forcibly breaking down the door of a residence due to loud music? Really? Not only is that a guaranteed way to generate massive lawsuits against the police and municipality, it's a stunningly massive overreaction. Noise does not equate to a public safety danger.

The proper response would be for the cop to record the noise level from the street, if in violation, write out a civil fine for noise violation and staple it to the front door. Problem solved.
 
2012-08-22 02:57:53 PM

consider this: lennavan: So why again do they need to enter?

Who said they need to enter, other than subby? Stop choosing to believe every anti-cop piece of drivel that some cop hating moron posts. Cops do not enter your home when responding to a noise complaint unless you open the door and there's a big pile of coke on the coffee table or a human sacrifice going on.


I love that you keep pretending like this is about some guy at home alone playing his music too loud so the cop shows up to politely ask him to stop. Frickin love it. Hey man, I can't argue against your imagination. When reality comes back to you, we can talk about how they want you to answer the door so they can look beyond you for all the tickets they can write. I now return you to your imagination that actually thinks cops can't just knock on the door and use their voice through the door to demand they turn the music down.
 
2012-08-22 02:58:04 PM

clearlyatroll: consider this: lennavan: So why again do they need to enter?

Who said they need to enter, other than subby? Stop choosing to believe every anti-cop piece of drivel that some cop hating moron posts. Cops do not enter your home when responding to a noise complaint unless you open the door and there's a big pile of coke on the coffee table or a human sacrifice going on.

C'mon now.. Be a realist. Cops frequently overstep their bound and figure out the law later.


For the record I'm only defending the idea of not opening your door for the police for any reason.
 
2012-08-22 02:58:06 PM
My post college apartment was right at the edge of the college slums (hey, it's Boston - what apartment *isn't* on the edge of a college slum?). Our cheap ass apartment was in a building with a mix of college kids and young professionals, tipped maybe 65-35 towards the kids. They would party, and make noise, and sometimes it was a pain in the ass, particularly when we had to go to work in the MA and they didn't, but it didn't happen often - end of semester, big game weekends, etc, and my roomie & I were always welcome to come over an have a beer or three with them. Heck, we were only two or three years older, and not that far removed from the same behavior.

One fine fall day, We got a pamphlet shoved under the door. It was from the college, informing us that if our apartment were to be 'raided' by campus or city PD, we would be subject to academic probation, suspension, or even expulsion. Neither my roomie or I had never attended said college, nor had any other affiliation to the school.

That weekend threw the loudest damn party we could.

And when the campus cops showed up, we invited them in for beer.

Never heard from the school, nor received another notice.
 
2012-08-22 02:58:22 PM
Solution.....talk to all local landlords and ask them for a key to the house/apartment and permission to enter their property to answer a complaint.


Or as a cop, just claim "I heard screaming so we drew our weapons and went in to see if there was a murder or assault in progress"


/my jackboots are thigh high
 
2012-08-22 03:01:35 PM

GAT_00: Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

You're assuming the people in question have the time and money to sue the city.


They're snowflakes. Mommy and Daddy will take care of it.
 
2012-08-22 03:01:51 PM

consider this: Who said they need to enter, other than subby? Stop choosing to believe every anti-cop piece of drivel that some cop hating moron posts. Cops do not enter your home when responding to a noise complaint unless you open the door and there's a big pile of coke on the coffee table or a human sacrifice going on.


So all cops are perfect and respect the rights of young people on all occasions? Really?

I'm not saying all cops do this. If it's a once-a-year party in a residential neighborhood, this probably won't happen. But in a college areas where the same houses have parties every weekend, it definitely happens. Once the door is open, they poke in their heads looking for probable cause to enter. Once inside, they arrest and shut down parties.

That's why these students aren't answering their doors, they're responding to police over-reach. If they police were simply asking them to turn down the music, why would they fear answering the door?
 
2012-08-22 03:01:59 PM

Dog Welder: Not a lawyer, so maybe a real one could fill in the blanks here, but if the town had some sort of noise ordinance and the police:

1) Received a noise complaint at a residence, and
2) Arrived at said residence and while standing outside heard incredibly loud noises,

Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?


You don't need a lawyer for this. Violations of a noise ordinance is not a crime; it's civil disobedience. If the police have probably cause to believe that a crime is being committed inside the house, they may enter. If not, they must get a warrant from a judge before entering. That is Iowa City's problem. But the time the police could get a warrant to enter, the party would have moved on. And, while the police are going for a warrant, they can't be doing - duh! - police work.

These police could have abused their power and simply said that they smelled weed. These are college kids, so they would have had a drug bust most of the time. I think this is a measured response by city officials to what can become a serious problem in a college town.
 
2012-08-22 03:02:22 PM
Open the door with a camcorder in your hand. "How about we don't violate each others' rights, ok?"

Problem solved.
 
2012-08-22 03:02:35 PM
They'll get you by hook or crook,like Brandon Raub.

http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/former-marine-brandon-raub-is-l o cked-in-a-psych-ward-over-his-911-facebook-posts/19770/
 
2012-08-22 03:02:55 PM

GAT_00: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.

For the first part, warrants aren't free tickets to search for anything the police feel like. The nature of the warrant and the specifics of the search parameters have to be defined.

For the second, that's an awfully generous assumption. I'd argue less than 2 years.

That's cute, you think there are still limits to the power of a police search.


They get real vindictive if you don't answer the door.

CSS - A few months after we bought this house a neighbor reported a prowler to the police. They showed up and knocked on our door as neighbor said he had been in our yard too. We'd had a bbq and few cocktails and were asleep. The front door is a good distance from our bedroom and slept through it all.
They showed up the next day to tell me that they had searched our 3 outbuildings,2 vehicles and an RV. Cocksucker was smirking when he told me this. We were new in the area and he felt the need to show authority. My response "Oh no, you found our meth lab."
So yeah, go ahead and be asleep or just refuse to answer your door.
 
2012-08-22 03:02:57 PM

Vodka Zombie: Looks like some people will be getting $1000 back from the Constitutionally-illiterate police.

Cops? Pro-tip here: Maybe you shouldn't be dumb, okay? I know it's hard when you decide to start hiring tech-school rejects and roid-happy gym-rats, but, seriously, try to understand what laws are and how they work. It'll keep you from looking like complete imbeciles.


Reading is hard.

Cops are not doing anything unconstitutional here. They are referring complaints to code enforcement, which then cite the tenants for code violation. Police are completely inbounds here, city government is the one on very thin ice.
 
2012-08-22 03:03:23 PM

ROGUECOP: Ok, I get the constitutional arguments and I agree with them. However, We do get call after call after call from pised off neighbors who demand the police enforce the peace disturbance laws. So let me ask, what would be a reasonable yet constitutionally protective way to handle these calls while at the same time understanding we can't spend all farking night on one noise complaint?

/hate these calls as a cop
//biggest violator of these laws when I was in college


It's been a couple of decades since I attended a party that was visited by police officers. However, in this area, I always thought the stops were well handled.

The cops would show up. Perhaps it is because this is the South, but entering a home or apartment in order to speak to someone was never an issue. Invariably the party parameters included the backyard, patio, or closest parking lot.

The pair of police officers would approach someone outside and ask to speak to someone who lived at that address. They would then shake hands with that person and ask to make an announcement. The music was cut and one of the officers' would announce that there had been a noise complaint. The officer might or might not include some detail like "there's a young couple with a newborn nearby" or "some of the elderly folks are upset". The officer would further explain that he was young once and he didn't want to ruin the fun. He usually finished with a statement along the lines of "Do me favor, don't make me work for a living tonight. Hold it down, okay?"

That nearly always worked. I did briefly room with a band and I'll admit that the same message had to be repeated every single weekend without fail. Since cops aren't allowed alcoholic beverages while on duty, we kept cans of Sprite and Cola in the fridge just for them. Every weekend someone, often me, was designated to remain sober, greet the cops, and offer them a soda when they arrived.

I'm not sure how that would work if you are in a cold climate or dealing with a building with multiple stories where there might not be anyone outside to speak to.
 
2012-08-22 03:03:40 PM

consider this: No, it's a way to get people to be considerate of their neighbors and to obey city noise ordinances. I guarantee that you wouldn't be on the side of a house full of morons screaming and blasting music at 2am if they lived next door to you. Do you really want police officers spending hours sitting around waiting for a warrant for a noise complaint rather than patrolling the streets?


I love this post. I tried my best to agree with all of it but the cognitive dissonance is seriously messin with my brain.

consider this: No, it's a way to get people to be considerate of their neighbors and to obey city noise ordinances. I guarantee that you wouldn't be on the side of a house full of morons screaming and blasting music at 2am if they lived next door to you.



I AGREE THIS IS SO OUTRAGEOUS. GODDAMN KIDS AND THEIR GODDAMN MUSIC. FARK THOSE KIDS WE NEED TO CHANGE LAWS TO BYPASS WARRANTS AND SO ON.

consider this: Do you really want police officers spending hours sitting around waiting for a warrant for a noise complaint rather than patrolling the streets?


Heh yeah, good point, this is kinda a stupid issue isn't it. Not even worth a few hours of a cop's time. BUT STILL SUPER OUTRAGEOUS LETS CHANGE THE LAW.
 
2012-08-22 03:04:04 PM
Myth: Problem: College students who know their legal rights are refusing to let the police enter their homes when they knock. Solution: Make that a civil offense, with fines up to $1000 per offense

Reality: Problem: People are throwing noisy parties that disturb others and they are circumventing the law by not answering the door when police show up. Solution: Make that a civil offense, with fines up to $1000 per offense.
 
2012-08-22 03:04:06 PM
Pretty straightforward town-vs-gown problem.

The zoning ordinances can't be made much tougher, because who the hell else are you going to rent to? The students just want to party.

The only long-term solution is segregation (wait, hear me out).

My alma mater, the University of Dayton, has a huge swath of student-only housing. In the last 20 years, it's become almost all University-owned, but when I went there in the 80s a significant percentage (~ 20%) of 'the ghetto' was privately owned. But the only people in the neighborhood were students, hence the leeway for shenanigans was much higher.
 
2012-08-22 03:05:18 PM

lennavan: I love that you keep pretending like this is about some guy at home alone playing his music too loud so the cop shows up to politely ask him to stop. Frickin love it. Hey man, I can't argue against your imagination. When reality comes back to you, we can talk about how they want you to answer the door so they can look beyond you for all the tickets they can write. I now return you to your imagination that actually thinks cops can't just knock on the door and use their voice through the door to demand they turn the music down


Why shouldn't I be able to? You can step out on the porch and conduct our business. I am not going to make you keep the door open. If you do leave it open and I see something illegal I am going to act on it because that is my job.

So, if I pull you over for speeding at 1am should I hold my breath so I can't tell if you have been drinking?
 
2012-08-22 03:05:45 PM

Dog Welder: Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?


No, because a violation of the noise ordinance is a civil infraction, rather than a crime. What you are referring to is called Exigent Circumstances. They need a specific reason to suspect that a crime is in progress, or evidence of a crime is being destroyed inside the house.


P.S. If you are the neighbor, and this is the 4th or 5th time the frat boys have pulled this crap, just let the responding officer know that you heard a woman screaming inside the house. Voila, instant exigent circumstances.
 
2012-08-22 03:07:39 PM

Dog Welder: Not a lawyer, so maybe a real one could fill in the blanks here, but if the town had some sort of noise ordinance and the police:

1) Received a noise complaint at a residence, and
2) Arrived at said residence and while standing outside heard incredibly loud noises,

Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?


That's like saying they have probable cause to search your car because you refused to let them search it.
 
2012-08-22 03:08:14 PM

consider this: lennavan: I love that you keep pretending like this is about some guy at home alone playing his music too loud so the cop shows up to politely ask him to stop. Frickin love it. Hey man, I can't argue against your imagination. When reality comes back to you, we can talk about how they want you to answer the door so they can look beyond you for all the tickets they can write. I now return you to your imagination that actually thinks cops can't just knock on the door and use their voice through the door to demand they turn the music down.

Yes, cops are out to fark you over any chance they get.
Let it go man, they were just doing their job when they told you not to skateboard in the bank parking lot.


In a nice way but yeah. I got pulled over a few years ago, my taillight was out. That was kind of him to let me know. Do you think he cares about my safety? What a kind gentleman. Not sure why he needed to run my license, registration and see my proof of insurance to kindly inform me of my safety risk. In chatting with him he kindly asked me how old my son sitting in the back seat was. What a nice guy, inquiring about my family. We were getting to be friends it seemed. Probably just a coincidence my kid was just barely old enough at the time to sit in the back without a child restraint. He didn't even give me a citation for the taillight. I'm sure that's what he does all day long, helps notify people of the repairs needed to their vehicles.

By the way, I've actually had really farking good experiences with cops and have a wildly favorable view of them. But holy fark are you a tard if you think this is about anything other than generating revenue.
 
2012-08-22 03:08:34 PM

lennavan: In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

He's got a good point, civil rights are kinda a waste of time.

I mean, it's worth their time to ticket some underage kids at their residence for drinking alcohol (gasp!111!!) but following the constitution, fark, they're not made of time okay, they have murders and stuff to solve.


You understand that the police chief is not advocating breaking the constitution, right? He is basically telling the city that he will not waste his men's time trying to get a search warrant for a noise complaint. Which is why the city had to use code enforcement to do an end around on the search warrant. Nowhere in the article did it state or imply that the police were advocating warrantless searches.
 
2012-08-22 03:10:52 PM

Giltric: Solution.....talk to all local landlords and ask them for a key to the house/apartment and permission to enter their property to answer a complaint.


That's not how US law works.

The resident of a house has 4th amendment rights, not just the landlord. Even if the landlord gives the police a key, they still need a warrant. (And thank god we don't have a 2-class 4th amendment, one for home owners and another for renters. We have enough class division as it is.)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The 4th Amendment, it's your friend.
 
2012-08-22 03:13:10 PM
First they came for the whinning snowflakes with the over inflated sense of entitlement and I said nothing beacuse Im not a whinning snowflake with the over inflated sense of entitlement .Then they came for me and....well....they didnt come for me beacuse I actually have a sense of decency , self controll and I understand the implied responsibility that is endemic to good citizenship and courteous neighborliness.
 
2012-08-22 03:13:14 PM
I don't really have a problem with this. Part of civilization is co-existing with your neighbors. If you are making a lot of noise your neighbors have a right to complain. It's reasonable for the police to come to your door and ask you to keep it down at this point. Obviously, the cops have no right to enter but if you don't talk to them they can't do their job so you can EABOD and pay the fine.
 
2012-08-22 03:14:04 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


Then a GOOD USE OF THE COPS TIME would be to spend the TWO FREAKIN HOURS it takes to get the warrant. Then they can bust in handle shiat. Once the cops show they are willing to get a warrant the asshats will just answer the door. Once they have a warrant they are searching the joint.

This boils down to cops who are too lazy to spend a few hours to stay within the constitution.
 
2012-08-22 03:15:16 PM

Aarontology: Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.


And apparently they learned that trick from the asshat in charge who claims "it's not a good use of their time"
 
2012-08-22 03:16:58 PM

lennavan: consider this: lennavan: I love that you keep pretending like this is about some guy at home alone playing his music too loud so the cop shows up to politely ask him to stop. Frickin love it. Hey man, I can't argue against your imagination. When reality comes back to you, we can talk about how they want you to answer the door so they can look beyond you for all the tickets they can write. I now return you to your imagination that actually thinks cops can't just knock on the door and use their voice through the door to demand they turn the music down.

Yes, cops are out to fark you over any chance they get. Let it go man, they were just doing their job when they told you not to skateboard in the bank parking lot.

In a nice way but yeah. I got pulled over a few years ago, my taillight was out. That was kind of him to let me know. Do you think he cares about my safety? What a kind gentleman. Not sure why he needed to run my license, registration and see my proof of insurance to kindly inform me of my safety risk. In chatting with him he kindly asked me how old my son sitting in the back seat was. What a nice guy, inquiring about my family. We were getting to be friends it seemed. Probably just a coincidence my kid was just barely old enough at the time to sit in the back without a child restraint. He didn't even give me a citation for the taillight. I'm sure that's what he does all day long, helps notify people of the repairs needed to their vehicles.

By the way, I've actually had really farking good experiences with cops and have a wildly favorable view of them. But holy fark are you a tard if you think this is about anything other than generating revenue.


Oh, a cop pulled me over right after our state passed a copy-cat law based on the one out of Arizona that lets' cops demand proof of citizenship from individuals they've stopped. My child, who was adopted internationally, is sitting in the back seat. The officer begins with admonishing me for running a stop sign. And I may have run the stop sign because I was so exhausted at the time I couldn't think and felt awful. Then, the officer started asking me questions about my child. Not a question, but questions, in the plural. I have never felt so afraid, inwardly violent, and absolutely flipped out. If that never happens again for the rest of my life, it will be too soon.
 
2012-08-22 03:17:07 PM

Aarontology: In those situations, a search warrant would be necessary to get inside, but that could take a couple of hours, if it's successful, and police Chief Sam Hargadine said that wasn't a good use of his officers' time.

Following the Constitution is not a good use of his officers' time.


That's also what I zeroed in on coming to the thread. However, I think it means more that his officers could be better used "fighting real crime" rather than obtaining a warrant because Harriet the Retired biatch needs to stick her nose in everything and act like she's bothered by folks at 3AM even though she was already awake watching Matlock on bootleg VHS.

If you pay attention to subtext, you know that's exactly what he means. I mean seriously. Harriet isn't going to "know how to turn on a DVD". Of course it's VHS!
 
2012-08-22 03:18:47 PM

fireclown:
CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.


*fist bump to fireclown*

Actually, IMO, forcing the cops to follow protocol is an *excellent* way to spend an afternoon. Would that more of us were willing to invest the time necessary to keep our public servants "honest", especially when we have nothing to hide. Perhaps if we did so en masse, over time cops would learn to not be so cavalier about citizen's rights, searches and search warrants.
 
2012-08-22 03:19:26 PM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Why shouldn't I be able to? You can step out on the porch and conduct our business. I am not going to make you keep the door open.

So, if I pull you over for speeding at 1am should I hold my breath so I can't tell if you have been drinking?


Why should I? I'm a busy guy, I got better things to do. I'm playin on my Xbox and my kill/death ratio is farking awesome. Why the fark should I be required to answer my door? You want to force me to answer my door, get a warrant, otherwise I got more important shiat to do.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: So, if I pull you over for speeding at 1am should I hold my breath so I can't tell if you have been drinking?


A great analogy. Similar situation - getting a warrant to draw blood takes hours. Link Those pesky warrantses. Let's pass a law that says if you don't let me sniff your breath, hell if you pop a mint at 1AM you are automatically declared drunk and get your fine. No need for a warrant!
 
2012-08-22 03:21:27 PM

SpectroBoy: This boils down to cops who are too lazy to spend a few hours to stay within the constitution.


There's that. There's also a likelihood that most judges would be less than impressed by being woken up at 2am to sign a warrant for a farking noise complaint.

Noise does not equal probable cause for, well, anything but noise. That's just asking to have any subsequent arrests thrown out. If I were a judge and woken in the middle of the night for this kind of crap, I'd tell the cops to write out a civil fine and let me get back to sleep. If they did it again, I'd tell them they were idiots and any subsequent arrests wouldn't stick.

/Not a lot of sympathy for the neighbors on college campuses. WTF do people expect when they move into college slum areas?
 
2012-08-22 03:21:37 PM

MycroftHolmes: You understand that the police chief is not advocating breaking the constitution, right?


He is advocating bypassing it. No need for a warrant or evidence if you can just declare guilt and send them their fine in the mail and demand they prove their innocence to get out of it. You get that, right?

MycroftHolmes: He is basically telling the city that he will not waste his men's time trying to get a search warrant for a noise complaint.


So... stop responding to noise complaints then. Either they are or they are not worth it. I don't get how you get to have it both ways. These things are so super duper important we must change the law immediately because if we don't, then they are not important enough for our time?
 
2012-08-22 03:25:13 PM

consider this: RandomRandom: Once inside, they arrest and shut down parties.

So they plant evidence and make up lies? Oh wait, they find people doing illegal shiat. I have an idea that's just crazy enough to work, how about you don't do illegal shiat, or if you do, don't blast your farking music loud that somebody calls the cops? Impossible, right?


Heh yeah, the only people who need rights are the guilty ones. Repeal the 5th amendment, right?
 
2012-08-22 03:26:18 PM

consider this: BolloxReader: This is just a $1000 ticket for bruising someone's ego and for exerting Constitutional rights.

No, it's a way to get people to be considerate of their neighbors and to obey city noise ordinances. I guarantee that you wouldn't be on the side of a house full of morons screaming and blasting music at 2am if they lived next door to you. Do you really want police officers spending hours sitting around waiting for a warrant for a noise complaint rather than patrolling the streets?


Interestingly I have lived for almost 20 years in neighborhoods with large concentrations of college student renters. My first apartment was in such a place and I did security work there-- front-desk stuff, screening visitors and collecting dry cleaning and releasing packages to residents.

I've never felt the need to call the cops on anyone for noise. The only time I had to deal with noise complaints was a crazy lady who literally would hallucinate. As in the police wouldn't even come out for her anymore because they would stand there and hear absolutely nothing while she would insist music was blaring.

There are places I wouldn't move to, like Broad Ripple in Indianapolis, because of constant partying. I'm not going to move into it and demand that people not stumble drunkenly across my lawn, throw up on my front walk and piss in my flower bed at 4 am. That's the character of the neighborhood. Just like I wouldn't move to Speedway because I don't enjoy people turning my lawn into a rutted ruin. I'm not going to move there and tell people they can't park on my lawn on race week. I just have chosen to not live there.

Maybe your neighbors have been far worse than mine. I don't know how to compare such experiences. I do know that some people have far less noise tolerance than others and this causes friction. I don't know when you started having these problems relative to when you moved in. If it used to be a quiet little neighborhood far from campus, then you have a legit beef. If the situation preceded you, then I'd have to suggest a bit more due diligence before moving next time.
 
2012-08-22 03:27:16 PM
How come people move to college towns and then complain about noise?

I mean I'm pretty sure the University was there before your house, jackass.
 
2012-08-22 03:27:47 PM
Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.
 
2012-08-22 03:28:05 PM
*gets on roof*
poietes.files.wordpress.com
"Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"
 
2012-08-22 03:30:47 PM

RandomRandom: If I were a judge and woken in the middle of the night for this kind of crap, I'd tell the cops to write out a civil fine and let me get back to sleep. If they did it again, I'd tell them they were idiots and any subsequent arrests wouldn't stick.


So what you are saying is people don't like being woken up in the middle of the night because of loud parties. Imagine that. Sounds like a stricter noise ordinance is required.
 
2012-08-22 03:31:06 PM
images.wikia.com

'We're not hosting an intergalactic kegger down here.'
 
2012-08-22 03:33:12 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
Police noise complaint response uniform.
 
2012-08-22 03:34:51 PM
Problem: college kids are throwing illegally wild parties and disturbing the peace, often with underage drinking, then abusing a loophole that says they can't be charged if they don't answer the . Officers have to waste hours of their time and our money getting warrants, and often the party's ended by the time they go through.

Solution: Remove that loophole
 
2012-08-22 03:35:04 PM

lennavan: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Why shouldn't I be able to? You can step out on the porch and conduct our business. I am not going to make you keep the door open.

So, if I pull you over for speeding at 1am should I hold my breath so I can't tell if you have been drinking?

Why should I? I'm a busy guy, I got better things to do. I'm playin on my Xbox and my kill/death ratio is farking awesome. Why the fark should I be required to answer my door? You want to force me to answer my door, get a warrant, otherwise I got more important shiat to do


I am not arguing about the warrant to enter issue. I was referring to the guy that stands in the open doorway to talk with drugs littering the table behind him. (happens more often than you think) I am a huge defender of the constitution and would never overstep anyone's protections. In this case I see it further protecting the resident from searches and seizures not the other way.

lennavan: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: So, if I pull you over for speeding at 1am should I hold my breath so I can't tell if you have been drinking?

A great analogy. Similar situation - getting a warrant to draw blood takes hours. Link Those pesky warrantses. Let's pass a law that says if you don't let me sniff your breath, hell if you pop a mint at 1AM you are automatically declared drunk and get your fine. No need for a warrant!


Not sure what your correlation is here. The original statement (paraphrased) was complaining about police using a plain view doctrine in this particular instance. Also, I don't need a warrant to draw blood in this case all I have to do is take you to the ER.
 
2012-08-22 03:35:04 PM

consider this: lennavan: Heh yeah, the only people who need rights are the guilty ones. Repeal the 5th amendment, right?

Yeah, that's exactly what that means. Holy hell, these threads really do turn some of you retarded.


Yea, actually that was what you just argued.

consider this: have an idea that's just crazy enough to work, how about you don't do illegal shiat


Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.
 
2012-08-22 03:35:25 PM

Old Smokie: How come people move to college towns and then complain about noise?

I mean I'm pretty sure the University was there before your house, jackass.


That's not so much the case anymore. Unviersity enrollment is expanding so students are living in areas where before they weren't even close. It's not like (I hope) people are buying a house in the middle of student neighborhood. More like they bough a house 15 years ago that was four blocks from the student neighborhood, today it's in the student neighborhood.
 
2012-08-22 03:36:27 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: RandomRandom: If I were a judge and woken in the middle of the night for this kind of crap, I'd tell the cops to write out a civil fine and let me get back to sleep. If they did it again, I'd tell them they were idiots and any subsequent arrests wouldn't stick.

So what you are saying is people don't like being woken up in the middle of the night because of loud parties. Imagine that. Sounds like a stricter noise ordinance is required.


based on the article the way they are operating now is working just fine, if you can't see this as a local government cash grab you must live in a really quaint little town.
 
2012-08-22 03:36:44 PM

Old Smokie: How come people move to college towns and then complain about noise?


Not every student who enrolls at that college is liberal arts. Some of them have to study and attend class the next day.
 
2012-08-22 03:37:12 PM

BolloxReader: I've never felt the need to call the cops on anyone for noise.


I called the cops about a noise complaint exactly once. I had two babies who were startled awake repeatedly by music being blasted through outdoor speakers and other noises. Then, small fireworks started going off. I called the police, they rode by the party, then stopped by our house to tell me they had spoken to the homeowner.

They mentioned that it was a Quinceanera and I felt awful. I apologized to the cops for calling them and asked them not to bother the little girl anymore. Then, to limit the crying, I kicked my husband out of the bed and brought the babies in to sleep with me.
 
2012-08-22 03:40:35 PM

ROGUECOP: Ok, I get the constitutional arguments and I agree with them. However, We do get call after call after call from pised off neighbors who demand the police enforce the peace disturbance laws. So let me ask, what would be a reasonable yet constitutionally protective way to handle these calls while at the same time understanding we can't spend all farking night on one noise complaint?

/hate these calls as a cop
//biggest violator of these laws when I was in college


Record the noise level at the sidewalk for evidence*. Knock on the door, then start writing it up. Violation of the 'peace distubance' or 'noise ordinance' probably consists of some fine, leave it taped to the door made out to tenant and be on your way. Mail the fine to tenant and landord just to be sure. If there isn't an ordinance then suggest the neighbor go over themselves and ask them to turn it down.

*Some actual noise meter would be nice, but video should be good enough.
 
2012-08-22 03:40:58 PM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: I am not arguing about the warrant to enter issue. I was referring to the guy that stands in the open doorway to talk with drugs littering the table behind him. (happens more often than you think)


No I completely agree, that's why no one is answering the door when the cops come knockin.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: I am a huge defender of the constitution and would never overstep anyone's protections. In this case I see it further protecting the resident from searches and seizures not the other way.


Not quite. You seem to think the solution is to force people to answer the door. If my kill/death ratio is 10/1 or higher, I'm not answering the door if it's the pope himself. (I actually don't play any games with a KDR anymore, I just think it's a funny example to use)

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Not sure what your correlation is here. The original statement (paraphrased) was complaining about police using a plain view doctrine in this particular instance.


The original argument was about preventing plain view doctrine by not answering the door. The correlation is in both cases getting a warrant is annoying. If you read the linked article, they complain about how in a few hours the BAC decreases. In a few hours I imagine some illegal drugs make their way down the toilet. But there's a reason it is a judge via warrants that makes the decision on these things and not cops.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: , I don't need a warrant to draw blood in this case all I have to do is take you to the ER.


From the article I linked: However, this May Governor Bill Haslam signed Public Chapter No. 892 that allows law enforcement to seek search warrants for a blood sample if a person arrested for driving under the influence refuses to provide one.
 
2012-08-22 03:41:47 PM

ignacio: Problem: college kids are throwing illegally wild parties and disturbing the peace, often with underage drinking, then abusing a loophole that says they can't be charged if they don't answer the . Officers have to waste hours of their time and our money getting warrants, and often the party's ended by the time they go through.

Solution: Remove that loophole


If the parties end before a warrant can even be issued, how much of an inconvenience to others can they really pose?
And must we take a "tough on crime" attitude with everything no matter how silly that response is?
 
2012-08-22 03:43:59 PM

gretzkyscores: fireclown:
CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.

*fist bump to fireclown*

Actually, IMO, forcing the cops to follow protocol is an *excellent* way to spend an afternoon. Would that more of us were willing to invest the time necessary to keep our public servants "honest", especially when we have nothing to hide. Perhaps if we did so en masse, over time cops would learn to not be so cavalier about citizen's rights, searches and search warrants.


I got tired of the moldy mulch on the side of my house, so I decided to replace it with those tiny white rocks. I went to home depot and got 6 50 lb bags of the stuff. Which went into the trunk of my mustang as I had no other vehicle. Now having 300 lbs in your trunk will lower your car a significant amount. Just so happens on the way home, I blaze through an orange light. I dunno, it was sort of yellow, sort of red. Of course there was a cop there.

He seems interested in the height of my car.
"You car is really riding low."
*This will be a fun time to be a smart-ass, I think* (it wasn't)
'Well sir, thats probably because I have over a hundred kilos of rock in the back'
"You have...what?"
'I have a bunch of bags of cracked rock'
Well that got his attention.
30 seconds later I was handcuffed on the side of the road. 5 minutes after that there was about 4 more squad cars there. Oh, and a dog for some reason.
They asked permission to search my trunk. Well, not so much asked, as they took my keys and opened it.
Officer: What. The. Fark?
Me: Like I said, a hundred or so kilos of cracked rock.

You know, I thought we'd all have a good laugh about it. There was no laughing. Not so much as a smile. What there was, was about an hour and a half of 'warrent checks'.

Oh and as far as running that redish-yellow light. You bet I got a ticket for it.
 
2012-08-22 03:45:03 PM

consider this: lennavan: Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.

Cops don't need a warrant to search a home if they respond to a call and observe illegal activity. That's why these little dicks aren't answering the doors
, why is that so hard for you to understand?


Uh, yeah I understand it. I'm fine with it, you're the one who is not. So what exactly is your problem here then?
 
2012-08-22 03:47:07 PM
Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses, said Doug Boothroy, Iowa City's director of housing and inspection services.

It sounds like their previous methods were working... why change it? Bored?
 
2012-08-22 03:47:28 PM

consider this: lennavan: Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.

Cops don't need a warrant to search a home if they respond to a call and observe illegal activity. That's why these little dicks aren't answering the doors, why is that so hard for you to understand?


You're clearly against this practice, you clearly want something done about it. I now return you to the 5th amendment:

That's why I don't answer the cop's questions, because they might hear some illegal activity.

Do you want to do something about that one as well? It's truly outrageous that a kid might not answer the door because the cop might bust him doing something illegal but makes complete sense a kid might not want to answer questions because the cop might bust him doing something illegal? Why is the right to not incriminate yourself analogy so hard to understand?
 
2012-08-22 03:48:08 PM

CapeFearCadaver: Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses, said Doug Boothroy, Iowa City's director of housing and inspection services.

It sounds like their previous methods were working... why change it? Bored?


They were working if your goal is to prevent future noise violations. The only reason to change it is if that was not your goal.
 
2012-08-22 03:48:15 PM

The Muthaship: Headso: local government trampling on rights, we should give them more power

No, dammit! That's the federal government's job!


(puts on HOA jackboots)

Can I get in on this?
 
2012-08-22 03:48:53 PM

consider this: Cops don't need a warrant to search a home if they respond to a call and observe illegal activity


Correction, they don't need a warrant if they observe criminal activity. Violating a civil noise ordinance is illegal, but not criminal.
 
2012-08-22 03:49:55 PM

consider this: lennavan: Uh, yeah I understand it. I'm fine with it, you're the one who is not. So what exactly is your problem here then?

I'm not fine with what, idiots refusing to answer the door? Hey, if that's what they choose to do, so be it. Just don't biatch when the $1,000 fine shows up in the mail.

What would you like to see happen here, the morons getting to party into the morning, with no consequences and annoying their neighbors?


The cops get a warrant and bust the fark out of everyone inside. That's what I'd like to see. I like me some constitutionally protected rights and I like me some peace and farking quiet. But my peace and quiet is not more important than someone else's constitutional rights.
 
2012-08-22 03:50:04 PM
These cops are amateurs as one of the earlier posts states. They can claim anything. College party and they didn't smell pot? Astonishing. Yes it's Iowa, they still have weed. They could also have done the "we heard screaming" line, that one works. Amateurs.

/ America is becoming a pitiful cartoon
 
2012-08-22 03:50:24 PM

lennavan: consider this: lennavan: Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.

Cops don't need a warrant to search a home if they respond to a call and observe illegal activity. That's why these little dicks aren't answering the doors, why is that so hard for you to understand?

You're clearly against this practice, you clearly want something done about it. I now return you to the 5th amendment:

That's why I don't answer the cop's questions, because they might hear some illegal activity.

Do you want to do something about that one as well? It's truly outrageous that a kid might not answer the door because the cop might bust him doing something illegal but makes complete sense a kid might not want to answer questions because the cop might bust him doing something illegal? Why is the right to not incriminate yourself analogy so hard to understand?


Darn it Lennavan, we have to get tough on crime or there will be parties terrorizing our neighborhoods, decimating our schools, and undermining our values and our way of life.
 
2012-08-22 03:51:29 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


If there's a loud party going on, there's actually a chance they don't even know somebody's at the door.
 
2012-08-22 03:53:17 PM

Lunaville: lennavan: consider this: lennavan: Don't like cops searching your house without a warrant? Stop doing illegal shiat.

Cops don't need a warrant to search a home if they respond to a call and observe illegal activity. That's why these little dicks aren't answering the doors, why is that so hard for you to understand?

You're clearly against this practice, you clearly want something done about it. I now return you to the 5th amendment:

That's why I don't answer the cop's questions, because they might hear some illegal activity.

Do you want to do something about that one as well? It's truly outrageous that a kid might not answer the door because the cop might bust him doing something illegal but makes complete sense a kid might not want to answer questions because the cop might bust him doing something illegal? Why is the right to not incriminate yourself analogy so hard to understand?

Darn it Lennavan, we have to get tough on crime or there will be parties terrorizing our neighborhoods, decimating our schools, and undermining our values and our way of life.


I guess so. I love that people simultaneously argue this is a big deal that something needs to be done about:

consider this: What would you like to see happen here, the morons getting to party into the morning, with no consequences and annoying their neighbors?


Yet also admitting it's not worth a few hours of a cop's time:

consider this: Do you really want police officers spending hours sitting around waiting for a warrant for a noise complaint rather than patrolling the streets?


We want the kids busted for this huge annoying infraction but we don't want to have to bother a cop for a couple of hours for it.
 
2012-08-22 03:55:28 PM
Police are idiots. Draconian thuggery is their only response to a problem

Deputize some cute college girls and send them out to noise complaints in plain clothes.
 
2012-08-22 03:57:06 PM

consider this: ThrobblefootSpectre: Correction, they don't need a warrant if they observe criminal activity. Violating a civil noise ordinance is illegal, but not criminal.

I've already said that loud music doesn't give them the right to enter a home. People on your side of the argument keep claiming that if somebody opens the door for an officer, they're just going to barge in and begin a search for something illegal going on and that's just not true.


I'm sure you can quote examples of this because otherwise this would be an example of... how do I put this delicately:

consider this: Holy hell, these threads really do turn some of you retarded

 
2012-08-22 03:57:07 PM

BolloxReader: consider this: BolloxReader: This is just a $1000 ticket for bruising someone's ego and for exerting Constitutional rights.

No, it's a way to get people to be considerate of their neighbors and to obey city noise ordinances. I guarantee that you wouldn't be on the side of a house full of morons screaming and blasting music at 2am if they lived next door to you. Do you really want police officers spending hours sitting around waiting for a warrant for a noise complaint rather than patrolling the streets?

Interestingly I have lived for almost 20 years in neighborhoods with large concentrations of college student renters. My first apartment was in such a place and I did security work there-- front-desk stuff, screening visitors and collecting dry cleaning and releasing packages to residents.

I've never felt the need to call the cops on anyone for noise. The only time I had to deal with noise complaints was a crazy lady who literally would hallucinate. As in the police wouldn't even come out for her anymore because they would stand there and hear absolutely nothing while she would insist music was blaring.

There are places I wouldn't move to, like Broad Ripple in Indianapolis, because of constant partying. I'm not going to move into it and demand that people not stumble drunkenly across my lawn, throw up on my front walk and piss in my flower bed at 4 am. That's the character of the neighborhood. Just like I wouldn't move to Speedway because I don't enjoy people turning my lawn into a rutted ruin. I'm not going to move there and tell people they can't park on my lawn on race week.


FYI, old telephone poles, or similarly heavy timber, cut into 6' lengths and sunk 3' deep along the road frontage will cut WAY down on that :)
 
2012-08-22 03:57:20 PM

consider this: lennavan: Uh, yeah I understand it. I'm fine with it, you're the one who is not. So what exactly is your problem here then?

I'm not fine with what, idiots refusing to answer the door? Hey, if that's what they choose to do, so be it. Just don't biatch when the $1,000 fine shows up in the mail.


but there's no reason that one has to answer their door. it's my farking door on my farking home, i'll answer when i feel like it. i'm sure as shiat not leaving the three russian chicks wrestling in jello to talk to a cop. fark that noise. not answering the door is not wrong. if they want to fine the house for the noise, go ahead and do that. mail a citation to the owner (sort of like how they do red light/speed cameras). there's no reason to attempt to force someone to answer their door by threatening a fine.
 
2012-08-22 03:58:07 PM
What's going to happen is that now cops will put as little effort as possible when trying to make contact. Loud party? Go lightly tap on the door once and you've done your job. Let them deal with the 750k-1k fine. Ohh and I will just be floored when they start handing out these fines pretty much anytime a noise complaint is lodged.

Just kidding it's not like police would selectively and aggressively go after/for certain offenses because they are very profitable for the city.
 
2012-08-22 04:03:51 PM

consider this: Kind of funny that you don't like the idea of cops entering a home if they suspect something illegal going on but you're fine with them getting a warrant and raiding a home for a party.


Holy shiat did you just write that and mock me for holding those beliefs? Holy farking shiat dude. Yes, apparently this is shocking news but I find warrants kinda important. I guess you don't. I feel like we're at the twisty-ending of a movie. You've been declaring these threads bring out the retards and right at the end we find out it was you who was retarded all along DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN!

Holy farking shiat I can't believe you just posted that.
 
2012-08-22 04:04:29 PM

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


If you've ever seen the line for criminal court at certain times of year in a college town you'd know why. Any booze = crime. lol so silly.
 
2012-08-22 04:05:50 PM

consider this: lennavan: I'm sure you can quote examples of this because otherwise this would be an example of... how do I put this delicately:

Sure, I'll just look for the thousands of articles written on officers responding to noise complaints and not conducting a search. That's such a newsworthy item that I'm guessing that most local news dedicates an entire team to reporting on it.


Oh okay so it was no one here in the thread and all along you've been arguing against a boogeyman you totally know exists elsewhere on the internet and you're still sure they are all on the same side of the argument as the guy you were responding to. Further, there are only two sides to this argument. Got it.
 
2012-08-22 04:05:54 PM

lennavan: MycroftHolmes: You understand that the police chief is not advocating breaking the constitution, right?

He is advocating bypassing it. No need for a warrant or evidence if you can just declare guilt and send them their fine in the mail and demand they prove their innocence to get out of it. You get that, right?

MycroftHolmes: He is basically telling the city that he will not waste his men's time trying to get a search warrant for a noise complaint.

So... stop responding to noise complaints then. Either they are or they are not worth it. I don't get how you get to have it both ways. These things are so super duper important we must change the law immediately because if we don't, then they are not important enough for our time?


The city council and the chief of police are two different entities. That the city chooses to make it a civil charge has no implications on the police's actions. The police are not bypassing the constitution at all. If anyone is doing so, it is the city government. Two completely separate entities.

Regarding your second point, that is a very black and white way of looking at things. Saying 'Either we should tie up multiple police officers and a judge for several hours, or we should just not have the law' is a false dichotomy. The way the city is approaching it is a serviceable compromise.

As far as constitutionality, is unconstitutional to fine the owner of an abandoned car, or the owners of a decrepit house? How is fining someone for a noise violation linked to their property any different?
 
2012-08-22 04:05:57 PM
How can they know it's the police if they're not answering the door?

Is it now mandatory to open the door, just in case it's police?
 
2012-08-22 04:06:46 PM

lennavan: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: I am not arguing about the warrant to enter issue. I was referring to the guy that stands in the open doorway to talk with drugs littering the table behind him. (happens more often than you think)

No I completely agree, that's why no one is answering the door when the cops come knockin. SirDigbyChickenCaesar: I am a huge defender of the constitution and would never overstep anyone's protections. In this case I see it further protecting the resident from searches and seizures not the other way.

Not quite. You seem to think the solution is to force people to answer the door. If my kill/death ratio is 10/1 or higher, I'm not answering the door if it's the pope himself. (I actually don't play any games with a KDR anymore, I just think it's a funny example to use)

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Not sure what your correlation is here. The original statement (paraphrased) was complaining about police using a plain view doctrine in this particular instance.

The original argument was about preventing plain view doctrine by not answering the door. The correlation is in both cases getting a warrant is annoying. If you read the linked article, they complain about how in a few hours the BAC decreases. In a few hours I imagine some illegal drugs make their way down the toilet. But there's a reason it is a judge via warrants that makes the decision on these things and not cops.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: , I don't need a warrant to draw blood in this case all I have to do is take you to the ER.

From the article I linked: However, this May Governor Bill Haslam signed Public Chapter No. 892 that allows law enforcement to seek search warrants for a blood sample if a person arrested for driving under the influence refuses to provide one.


Any person, whether licensed by Virginia or not, who operates a motor vehicle upon a highway, as defined in § 46.2-100, in the Commonwealth shall be deemed thereby, as a condition of such operation, to have consented to have samples of his blood, breath, or both blood and breath taken for a chemical test to determine the alcohol, drug, or both alcohol and drug content of his blood

There is no warrant if they refuse. If they refuse then I still charge them with the DUI (if I think I have enough evidence) and the judge uses only my testimony to convict and then they get a refusal charge which is just as bad as a DUI.

I think you misunderstand me, I cannot force you to open the door (nor do I think it is right) unless exigent circumstances are present, period. Would I like you to? Yes because the outcome is going to be a lot different if we politely conduct our business like adults. You ignoring a legal order requiring us to get a warrant and polite is no longer an option.

Remember, I am standing at your door because someone else called for our help. I am representing them in this case and it's their rights I am standing up for. You not answering the door isn't changing the equation.
 
2012-08-22 04:06:56 PM
LOL, You though when you got out of high school you would be in the "real world" and the rules would change?
You're still a student.
You get get farked.
 
2012-08-22 04:07:27 PM
When the cops came to a small party back in college. They busted in saying that since we did not answer the door, they assumed we were trespassing. After harrassing us for 30 minutes and put us in cuffs there were no tickets.
I always wanted to cause a stink about it, but I didn't have the money for lawyers or the know how.
 
2012-08-22 04:09:33 PM

Smingleigh: How can they know it's the police if they're not answering the door?

Is it now mandatory to open the door, just in case it's police?


well the police could identify themselves. of course maybe they aren't really police. maybe they are sadistic rapists impersonating the police? maybe they are male strippers sent as a prank? never can be too careful in this post-9/11 world.
 
2012-08-22 04:09:36 PM

consider this: Think before you post.


consider this: Kind of funny that you don't like the idea of cops entering a home if they suspect something illegal going on but you're fine with them getting a warrant and raiding a home for a party.


lol

Keep diggin dude, keep diggin. Fark that Lenny guy for thinking getting a warrant makes things better!

consider this: Wouldn't a better position for somebody with your way of thinking be that something as trivial as a noise complaint shouldn't be grounds for getting a warrant and storming a residence?


I imagine that would be up to the particular cop in the particular situation, as each situation is different. I guess you didn't know this - not all warrants are served via SWAT team. HOLY SHOCK AND AWE.
 
2012-08-22 04:12:00 PM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Any person, whether licensed by Virginia or not, who operates a motor vehicle upon a highway, as defined in § 46.2-100, in the Commonwealth shall be deemed thereby, as a condition of such operation, to have consented to have samples of his blood, breath, or both blood and breath taken for a chemical test to determine the alcohol, drug, or both alcohol and drug content of his blood


You're posting a state law from a different state than the article I cited. I'm sure you know what I'll post next.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: Yes because the outcome is going to be a lot different if we politely conduct our business like adults. You ignoring a legal order requiring us to get a warrant and polite is no longer an option.


I fail to see why this necessitates a law change. I get it, when the kids don't open the door making the cop get a warrant things are gonna get a hell of a lot worse. That's their choice to make dude. Kids being annoying isn't a reason to ignore the whole warrant dealie.
 
2012-08-22 04:15:42 PM

Lunaville: BolloxReader: I've never felt the need to call the cops on anyone for noise.

I called the cops about a noise complaint exactly once. I had two babies who were startled awake repeatedly by music being blasted through outdoor speakers and other noises. Then, small fireworks started going off. I called the police, they rode by the party, then stopped by our house to tell me they had spoken to the homeowner.

They mentioned that it was a Quinceanera and I felt awful. I apologized to the cops for calling them and asked them not to bother the little girl anymore. Then, to limit the crying, I kicked my husband out of the bed and brought the babies in to sleep with me.


You meanie.
At lease you felt aweful.
 
2012-08-22 04:16:35 PM

MycroftHolmes: The city council and the chief of police are two different entities. That the city chooses to make it a civil charge has no implications on the police's actions. The police are not bypassing the constitution at all. If anyone is doing so, it is the city government. Two completely separate entities.


So we'll pretend the city council is doing this independent of the police and further, so are their budgets. You know what, whatever, that's pedantic and irrelevant to the points I want to make. So sure, why not.

MycroftHolmes: Regarding your second point, that is a very black and white way of looking at things


Er, did you read the first part of your post? Harsh dude, harsh.

MycroftHolmes: Saying 'Either we should tie up multiple police officers and a judge for several hours, or we should just not have the law' is a false dichotomy.


Why do you need multiple police officers and more than 5 minutes in front of a judge?

MycroftHolmes: As far as constitutionality, is unconstitutional to fine the owner of an abandoned car, or the owners of a decrepit house? How is fining someone for a noise violation linked to their property any different?


I'm pretty sure there is something illegal going on in your house. You won't let me look because of the 4th amendment? Fine, I'll just pass a law that declares you automatically guilty and let me issue you a fine on the spot and demand you prove yourself innocent if you don't want to. Nice.
 
2012-08-22 04:28:35 PM
You would think all the loudness and disturbing of the peace be reasonable cause to enter without a warrent. Unless the cops just "know" something illegal is going on but can't just walk right in. Must be very frustrating for them.
 
2012-08-22 04:30:21 PM
I see your civil offense and raise you one peaceful protest. I my good sir am not having a party - I am having a peaceful protest of the civil offense law that is a direct denial of my constitutional rights. If my neighbors don't like my parties please issue them 10 cent ear plugs or 5 hour energies.
 
2012-08-22 04:30:44 PM

lennavan: I'm pretty sure there is something illegal going on in your house. You won't let me look because of the 4th amendment? Fine, I'll just pass a law that declares you automatically guilty and let me issue you a fine on the spot and demand you prove yourself innocent if you don't want to. Nice.


They are fining them for a noise ordnance violation. They aren't assuming that they are manufacturing meth and then finding them guilty of that. The code enforcement officer ascertains what house is generating the violation, then fines them for it. I am not sure how they are being found guilty of a crime? Am I entitled to a jury trial if my trees don't have the appropriate clearance over the street? Do they need a search warrant to see that my grass is overgrown and out of compliance with ordnance?
 
2012-08-22 04:30:52 PM

JackieRabbit: Dog Welder: Not a lawyer, so maybe a real one could fill in the blanks here, but if the town had some sort of noise ordinance and the police:

1) Received a noise complaint at a residence, and
2) Arrived at said residence and while standing outside heard incredibly loud noises,

Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?

You don't need a lawyer for this. Violations of a noise ordinance is not a crime; it's civil disobedience. If the police have probably cause to believe that a crime is being committed inside the house, they may enter. If not, they must get a warrant from a judge before entering. That is Iowa City's problem. But the time the police could get a warrant to enter, the party would have moved on. And, while the police are going for a warrant, they can't be doing - duh! - police work.

These police could have abused their power and simply said that they smelled weed. These are college kids, so they would have had a drug bust most of the time. I think this is a measured response by city officials to what can become a serious problem in a college town.


Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!
 
2012-08-22 04:32:10 PM

badhatharry: You would think all the loudness and disturbing of the peace be reasonable cause to enter without a warrent. Unless the cops just "know" something illegal is going on but can't just walk right in. Must be very frustrating for them.


Your a Democrat aren't you?
 
2012-08-22 04:34:10 PM

lennavan: So we'll pretend the city council is doing this independent of the police and further, so are their budgets. You know what, whatever, that's pedantic and irrelevant to the points I want to make. So sure, why not.


Your original post that I was responding to was basically criticizing the police for implying that civil rights were a waste of time. These comments do not make any sense, as the police are not really any part of your perceived violation of civil rights.

And your assumption that police and city council move in lockstep is an assertion that is not validated in all (or even most) cases.

If you want to argue that the City is out of line for this ordnance, your comments should probably reflect that. My mistake for responding to what you wrote, rather than what you meant.
 
2012-08-22 04:38:07 PM

lennavan: Why do you need multiple police officers and more than 5 minutes in front of a judge?


I can't answer that, so I will defer to the police chief who made the decision regarding the best use of his men. My point remains, you have created a false dichotomy in your argument. You are saying that if a law is resource intensive to maintain, we should just scrap the law, rather than find another way of maintaining the law. I don't see why it needs to be either or.

If you want to argue that the police chief is just wrong, and that it is not a waste of his resources to go get a warrant, well, that is not an argument I ever made, so you would have to take that up with someone else.
 
2012-08-22 04:38:12 PM
Last I checked you are not legaly required to answer the door for anybody. And even if the cops are outside you dont have to talk to them through an open door or otherwise. If they want in its up to them to get a warent

/GED in Law from DeVry
 
2012-08-22 04:41:28 PM

consider this: BolloxReader: If the situation preceded you, then I'd have to suggest a bit more due diligence before moving next time.

Wait, you're suggesting that people should either accept the noise or find somewhere else to live?


I'm suggesting that it depends on the circumstance. If the neighborhood was already that way before someone moved in, then it's that person's fault for not doing due diligence. Neighborhoods full of students and young people are going to be noisy. Anyone who moves in and tries to force them to be quiet is in the wrong. Forcing one's lifestyle and preferrences on others, through laws or regulations, isn't a good response.

If they are the intruders, then they are indeed the ones who farked up and need to move to an area more accepting of their way of life. It is a bit tricky because you can't discriminate in housing based on "they are young" or "they have kids." But I believe that college students are not a protected class, and the landlord should be made aware of how expensive it can be to rent to people whose lifestyle preferences can violate the rights of others to live in peace.

I believe that people should look primarily for compatibility when making housing choices. My wife and I are selling our house of five years because we came to the conclusion that it was too conservative and racist to want to call it home. My wife is very sensitive to noise, so we won't be including any of the neighborhoods I might have considered on my own.

Consideration must flow both ways for a civil society.
 
2012-08-22 04:42:41 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.


Sorry, wrong thread. :-(
 
2012-08-22 04:44:14 PM

Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.


how YOU doin?
 
2012-08-22 04:44:57 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Bathia_Mapes: Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.

Sorry, wrong thread. :-(


www.spscriptorium.com
 
2012-08-22 04:45:50 PM

MycroftHolmes: I can't answer that, so I will defer to the police chief who made the decision regarding the best use of his men. My point remains, you have created a false dichotomy in your argument. You are saying that if a law is resource intensive to maintain, we should just scrap the law, rather than find another way of maintaining the law. I don't see why it needs to be either or.


You have provided me with your own false dichotomy. I select a third choice - the police chief is full of shiat, a couple of hours for one of your cops is not resource intensive so STFU and enforce the law using the current system which according to his numbers prevents future violations over 95% of the time.

I don't see why the fark we need any change. On the one hand you demand this law is so important it needs change. On the other hand you're telling me it's not worth a couple hours of a cop's time. What the fark dude?
 
2012-08-22 04:48:10 PM

SquiggelyGrounders: Last I checked you are not legaly required to answer the door for anybody. And even if the cops are outside you dont have to talk to them through an open door or otherwise. If they want in its up to them to get a warent

/GED in Law from DeVry


Even after they get a warrant, you don't have to talk to them. Even if they charge you with murdering Presidents Kennedy, Lincoln, Garfield and Harrison, you're under no obligation to talk.
 
2012-08-22 04:48:46 PM

MycroftHolmes: Your original post that I was responding to was basically criticizing the police for implying that civil rights were a waste of time. These comments do not make any sense, as the police are not really any part of your perceived violation of civil rights.

And your assumption that police and city council move in lockstep is an assertion that is not validated in all (or even most) cases.


The cops are city council are completely independent. I get it. Okay then. For the sake of argument we agreed on this already. What next?

MycroftHolmes: You are saying that if a law is resource intensive to maintain, we should just scrap the law, rather than find another way of maintaining the law.


Oh okay, so the cops said it is resource intensive, so the city council has to change the law. These two things work together dependent on each other. Wait, what?
 
2012-08-22 04:53:40 PM

consider this: BolloxReader: I'm suggesting that it depends on the circumstance. If the neighborhood was already that way before someone moved in, then it's that person's fault for not doing due diligence. Neighborhoods full of students and young people are going to be noisy. Anyone who moves in and tries to force them to be quiet is in the wrong. Forcing one's lifestyle and preferrences on others, through laws or regulations, isn't a good response.

Expecting people to follow the law is not "forcing one's lifestyle" on anybody.


I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I get what BolloxReader is saying, the areas in TFA are primarily geared to college housing where students live. When I went to college I specifically moved to an apartment complex as far away from the hub-bub surrounding the University as possible. Because I wanted quite, and I knew I wasn't going to find that near the school. 'Cause I'm a nerd.
 
2012-08-22 04:53:44 PM
I work nights and sleep days. I never answer my door.
 
2012-08-22 04:56:12 PM

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


At least someone read the article.

lennavan: In a nice way but yeah. I got pulled over a few years ago, my taillight was out. That was kind of him to let me know. Do you think he cares about my safety? What a kind gentleman. Not sure why he needed to run my license, registration and see my proof of insurance to kindly inform me of my safety risk. In chatting with him he kindly asked me how old my son sitting in the back seat was. What a nice guy, inquiring about my family. We were getting to be friends it seemed. Probably just a coincidence my kid was just barely old enough at the time to sit in the back without a child restraint. He didn't even give me a citation for the taillight. I'm sure that's what he does all day long, helps notify people of the repairs needed to their vehicles.

By the way, I've actually had really farking good experiences with cops and have a wildly favorable view of them. But holy fark are you a tard if you think this is about anything other than generating revenue.


Yeah. Not too long ago I got pulled over because of burned-out brake light. She ran my info of course, told me about the light and asked if I had a spare bulb in the car (no, nor did I have the tool needed to get at them) and she told me to get it fixed soon. No problem.
 
2012-08-22 04:57:50 PM
I'm going to set up a video camera and screen outside my door and outsource speaking to the police to a call center in India. That should keep the police tied up long enough to the party to be over before my fifty cents an hour employee apologizes profusely for the minor inconvenience.
 
2012-08-22 04:58:06 PM
Problem: Budget is a little tight.

Solution: Pass this law. "Receive" a few noise complaints for randomly selected addresses numbering up to and including the entire State's residences. Send $750 tickets to all selected residences. Afterall, everyone isn't home at least sometimes. They didn't answer the hypothetical door when the hypothetical officer attempted to deliver the hypothetical noise complaint.

Some people take it to court and get the ticket thrown out. Most people realize a lawyer would cost more than $750 and just pay the fine. The rest never respond and collections gets to take their stuff or garnish their wages.
 
2012-08-22 05:00:13 PM

fireclown: Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?

Because that wouldn't result in arrests, which look great come budget time. If you get a chance to wander around a college party, you're going to find a bunch of petty nonsense: underage drinking, maybe some marijuana if you're lucky. Suddenly you are no longer essentially a meter maid, you are an ainti crime crusader whose job must be protected.

CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.


Did that once when I got pulled over speeding. The cop looked really surprised, but he just "ok" and let it go. But still got a ticket.

/white female, nice car

//not that that is the reason he dropped it
 
2012-08-22 05:03:50 PM
Well, if the neighbors wanted peace and quiet, they shouldn't have moved in next to a farking frat house. Those guys do have a certain reputation, and it isn't for being studious little nerds. This reminds me of that couple that moved into a house near the airport and then filed a complaint about the noise.
 
2012-08-22 05:06:35 PM

Pumpernickel bread: Well, if the neighbors wanted peace and quiet, they shouldn't have moved in next to a farking frat house. Those guys do have a certain reputation, and it isn't for being studious little nerds. This reminds me of that couple that moved into a house near the airport and then filed a complaint about the noise.


I would totally move next to a frat house.. just for the chance to see some young coed cavorting around.
 
2012-08-22 05:07:03 PM

fireclown: Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?

Because that wouldn't result in arrests, which look great come budget time. If you get a chance to wander around a college party, you're going to find a bunch of petty nonsense: underage drinking, maybe some marijuana if you're lucky. Suddenly you are no longer essentially a meter maid, you are an ainti crime crusader whose job must be protected.

CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.



I actually think that is a CS. Good for you, I seriously wish more people did that and utilized their 5th amendment rights. You don't actually have to tell the customs officer why you were vacationing in that country before they let you back in. If you're a citizen they have to let you in. But as your story suggests, you have to be willing to spend the time and energy because it seems pretty clear they're willing to do it. If more people did it, maybe the cops would stop thinking digging in is worth their time and let you go.
 
2012-08-22 05:07:17 PM

lennavan: MycroftHolmes: Your original post that I was responding to was basically criticizing the police for implying that civil rights were a waste of time. These comments do not make any sense, as the police are not really any part of your perceived violation of civil rights.

And your assumption that police and city council move in lockstep is an assertion that is not validated in all (or even most) cases.

The cops are city council are completely independent. I get it. Okay then. For the sake of argument we agreed on this already. What next?

MycroftHolmes: You are saying that if a law is resource intensive to maintain, we should just scrap the law, rather than find another way of maintaining the law.

Oh okay, so the cops said it is resource intensive, so the city council has to change the law. These two things work together dependent on each other. Wait, what?


I am not certain what point you are trying to make anymore. You're Boobies, which is the one I responded to, basically called out the police for being lazy and violating civil rights

" He's got a good point, civil rights are kinda a waste of time.

I mean, it's worth their time to ticket some underage kids at their residence for drinking alcohol (gasp!111!!) but following the constitution, fark, they're not made of time okay, they have murders and stuff to solve."

The implication in this statement is that the police feel that civil rights are a waste of time. When i point out that the police are not the ones doing anything to threaten civil rights, I get a whole melange of incoherent arguments that amount to
1. City government and police are the same (implying that civil and criminal laws are the same which they are not)
2. It is really not resource intensive to get a search warrant (not sure how this is relevant)
3. If the law is on the books, it should enforced with all available resources, or it should be stricken from the books, there is no middle ground.

Are these really the points you are trying to make, because I am pretty confused. I will restate my original position and you can tell me which point you have an issue with-The questionable law enforcement is not being performed by the police. The police are not taking any actions that compromise civil rights. Municipal code enforcement is a separate entity from the police department.
 
2012-08-22 05:07:33 PM

consider this: BolloxReader: I'm suggesting that it depends on the circumstance. If the neighborhood was already that way before someone moved in, then it's that person's fault for not doing due diligence. Neighborhoods full of students and young people are going to be noisy. Anyone who moves in and tries to force them to be quiet is in the wrong. Forcing one's lifestyle and preferrences on others, through laws or regulations, isn't a good response.

Expecting people to follow the law is not "forcing one's lifestyle" on anybody.


I would suggest that laws are not necessary for anything that does not directly relate to safety. I really have no respect for many laws and ordinances and frequently violate them when they suit me.

Tell me, do you wait for two seconds after fully stoppping at a stop sign before proceding? Do you always know or care whether you are permitted to make a right hand turn on red when visiting other cities? Ever driven above the speed limit? Put your turn signal on while making a lane change or turn?

Those are, in my view, far more important violations than anything noise related (unless you are testing sonic weapons). Noise ordinances are about neighbors not being compatible, that is the long and the short of it. And the police shouldn't be the solution to a cultural problem.
 
2012-08-22 05:11:09 PM

Flakeloaf: robbiex0r: Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.

Sorry, my bad. I'm used to living in a civilized country where police tell the by-law people to handle by-laws, the by-law folks show up to ask everyone to be drunken idiots quietly and the stoners hold their breath until the nice man with the big ticket book is gone.


Wow where are you from??!!??
 
2012-08-22 05:11:42 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Bathia_Mapes: Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.

Sorry, wrong thread. :-(


Okay... but now I need to know what the right thread is.
 
2012-08-22 05:22:25 PM

natas6.0: I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them

yea there are tricks, like if you don't go in someone could be hurt/killed
or evidence could be destroyed
" I heard someone yelling as if they were being injured"
done

cops do what the chief tells them to.
the chief is told what to do by the city council/ mayor etc.
if you don't want a routine call for a complaint
keep it the fark down or invite yer stuffy neighbor so there is no complaint.

seems so simple to avoid trouble


Or they could just tell their whiny neighbor that snitches get stitches.
 
2012-08-22 05:36:19 PM

consider this: BolloxReader: Those are, in my view, far more important violations than anything noise related (unless you are testing sonic weapons). Noise ordinances are about neighbors not being compatible, that is the long and the short of it. And the police shouldn't be the solution to a cultural problem.

So I could move in next to you, blast my stereo 24 hours a day, extra loud while you were trying to sleep, just for the lulz, and you'd just accept it and find somewhere else to live?


I had a neighbor do this, but for an even dumber reason

we were half of a shotgun house. and everyday, we noticed that our neighbor's music was blaring... blaring to the point of shaking the walls and vibrating the floors. so, I'd knock on her door like crazy to get her to turn it down... she'd never respond.

finally, one day I stopped her outside her place, and said, why do you keep your radio so loud all day?

she said, oh, I do that because when I leave for the day, I want people to think that I'm home so they won't rob me.

i told her that the only reason someone would rob her is because now they know she has a good stereo system.

/ everything else she owned has garage sale junk... like literally scrap and junk. was happy to find a new place.
// plus, this is new orleans. I'd rather have my house robbed while I am away from it. if they want to rob you, your presence in the house is absolutely immaterial. actually, it might be a bonus, it means they don't have to break in, they just have to knock on the door.
 
2012-08-22 05:39:43 PM
"A civil infraction would carry a $750 fine for a first offense and a $1,000 fine for subsequent offenses."

Let's see...

175 incidents x $750 fine = $131,250.

What'd ya want to bet it is not about the money?
 
2012-08-22 05:51:20 PM

Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.


That's how my SO got an MIP!

1. cop said he wasn't wearing a seatbelt (puffy coat + studying over a textbook in the passengers seat)
2. Cop "smelled pot"
3. Found a half bottle of ouzu I bought legally for the 20 yr old SO and I and forgot to grab when he and his friend left.

Of course at every house party my friends and I threw we posted the ACLU fact sheet by the front door.

Best solution around this was what my friends did during a summer block party: locked the doors at 9, drank on the porch, and when the cops came to gice every house on the street tickets they all claimed that they didn't live there but absent friends did and they were waiting on the porch for them. See, officer, house is locked and empty...

Every other house on their block got a $300 ticket. :)
 
2012-08-22 06:11:19 PM

consider this: So they plant evidence and make up lies? Oh wait, they find people doing illegal shiat. I have an idea that's just crazy enough to work, how about you don't do illegal shiat, or if you do, don't blast your farking music loud that somebody calls the cops? Impossible, right?


You're saying it's OK for cops to violate the 4th amendment using the pretext of a noise complaint to illegally search houses for any and all other possible violations. (OMG, smoking a little pot in the privacy of their own home, the evil bastards. )

Thankfully that's not how are constitution works. The cops cannot enter at any time. These students know their rights, they've take the correct approach. The 4th amendment is just as potent as the 2nd.

I see this problem as one largely created by bad policing. If the cops didn't use these door-openings as pretexts to illegally search these residences, the students would have had no reason to stop answering their doors. If the police had used respect instead of force, had they generated a tiny bit of trust, the students would answer their doors, they cops wouldn't use it as a pretext, the noise would get turned down, the real problem would be solved.

Cops in college areas often don't do this. They use open doors to invade privacy, so now the municipality is faced with this issue. As I've said above, even if they do pass this inane law, a very easy fix for the students is to build an temporary wooden alcove inside their front doors, allowing them to answer an exterior door while preventing police from abusing their rights.
 
2012-08-22 06:12:06 PM

namegoeshere: Bathia_Mapes: Bathia_Mapes: Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.

Sorry, wrong thread. :-(

Okay... but now I need to know what the right thread is.


Sorry, but it's a TFD thread, which as you know I can't share with non-TFers.
 
2012-08-22 06:17:04 PM

RandomRandom: a very easy fix for the students is to build an temporary wooden alcove inside their front doors,


you mean a porch?
 
2012-08-22 06:21:13 PM

kvinesknows: RandomRandom: a very easy fix for the students is to build an temporary wooden alcove inside their front doors,

you mean a porch?


It's possible he's re-invented the foyer. I wouldn't expect someone who has the cops called on them for noise violations would know anything about them. The concept probably seems pretty clever to him, I'm sure.
 
2012-08-22 06:28:38 PM
Sound proof homes/apartments. Problem solved.
 
2012-08-22 06:34:15 PM

RandomRandom: Dog Welder: Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?

Forcibly breaking down the door of a residence due to loud music? Really? Not only is that a guaranteed way to generate massive lawsuits against the police and municipality, it's a stunningly massive overreaction. Noise does not equate to a public safety danger.

The proper response would be for the cop to record the noise level from the street, if in violation, write out a civil fine for noise violation and staple it to the front door. Problem solved.


and the defense for this is simple what is the tool called ? How does it work? How did you calibrate it ? What is your training in calibrating this device ? Are you a sound technician ? What is your related training ? oh you know what it is called thats interesting...
 
2012-08-22 06:41:39 PM
I have no problem with this. They are disturbing the peace, people who aren't interested in getting drunk are trying to sleep / study, and they have a reasonable expectation of some privacy / peace. Screaming drunk douchebags riding through college on a D and keeping the good students up all night is not acceptable, and if i was the parent of such a student, i would want something done, as i don't want my money wasted on dickheads who just want to get drunk, fark, and start shiat. Blaring music and heathenistic morans breaking furniture and generally being 'it's all about me " dickheads should pay the price. Just open the damn door, say you're sorry, and turn the music down.
 
2012-08-22 06:45:33 PM
Or, if they are going to be dickheads and not answer the door, just call the electrical company to turn off the power to the house. Problem solved.
 
2012-08-22 06:47:52 PM
This kind of stuff is why individual police should have criminal liability for blatantly abusing power. No more qualified immunity.
 
2012-08-22 07:16:00 PM

Bathia_Mapes: namegoeshere: Bathia_Mapes: Bathia_Mapes: Yes.

Conan Wayne Hale is currently on death row for the murder of three teens. He was a former neighbor of mine when my son was around 8 years old.

Sorry, wrong thread. :-(

Okay... but now I need to know what the right thread is.

Sorry, but it's a TFD thread, which as you know I can't share with non-TFers.


OH NOT NICE YOU BIG MEANIEPANTS!!!
 
2012-08-22 07:45:11 PM
Crystal ball is showing me images of Iowa cops waiting for people to leave for work and then sticking $1000 fines on their front doors.
 
2012-08-22 08:52:36 PM
Police should be allowed to invite themselves in and do their best version of nobody expects the spanish inquisition whenever they like.

After all god forbid people should have to deal with loud music and drinking in a college town.

/When police stop showing respect then people stop show respect to police.
 
2012-08-22 08:59:34 PM
AverageAmericanGuy
kvinesknows: RandomRandom: a very easy fix for the students is to build an temporary wooden alcove inside their front doors,
you mean a porch?
It's possible he's re-invented the foyer. I wouldn't expect someone who has the cops called on them for noise violations would know anything about them. The concept probably seems pretty clever to him, I'm
sure.


I would argue that building a speciality build foyer that records sound and video for dealing with law enforcement is just as creative as the reenforced door is to the crack dealer.

Law enforcement has a problem with it and they are doing everything they can to not be shaken down by 5.0.
 
2012-08-22 09:08:19 PM
Everybody wants a puppy until it shiats in the lving room. When you host a college in your town and reap the economic benefits, you're going to have lots of this crap going on.

If you really want to get somewhere, fine the landlords for noise violations. That will clear things up.
 
2012-08-22 09:13:18 PM

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


Stupid laws bring in a lot of revenue.
 
2012-08-22 09:35:59 PM

MycroftHolmes: You understand that the police chief is not advocating breaking the constitution, right? He is basically telling the city that he will not waste his men's time trying to get a search warrant for a noise complaint. Which is why the city had to use code enforcement to do an end around on the search warrant. Nowhere in the article did it state or imply that the police were advocating warrantless searches.


Sounds like that's exactly what they're advocating.

Either you let them into your house without a warrant or you get a $1000 fine.
 
2012-08-22 10:06:54 PM

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: And this is the destruction of the 4th amendment how exactly? Where is the unreasonable search or seizure?


Because it isn't a ticket for a noise violation.

It is a ticket for not letting the Cops in without a warrant. Technically, for not opening the door, but it's the same thing. Once the door is open y'all "knock and talk" and force your way in anyway.
 
2012-08-22 10:58:00 PM
Smart dorm dwellers would get a visit from the RHD and cops in the morning if you didn't answer. Or if the cops were annoyed enough you didn't answer your door, they'd go and shut off power to your room. With fines they levy these days for parties, there's NO incentive at all to be cooperative. These situations usually just result in mailed tickets and notification to the landlord.
 
2012-08-22 11:01:14 PM
I remember the good old days when the cops would come to the front door, teenage drinking all about, and tell you the neighbors are complaining, turn the noise down, then leave. Also, I remember when you got pulled over, open booze containers in the car, and the cops would make you pour your booze out, then tell you to drive straight home.

What the fark happened?

/onion on my belt, etc.
 
2012-08-22 11:04:42 PM

Tumunga: I remember the good old days when the cops would come to the front door, teenage drinking all about, and tell you the neighbors are complaining, turn the noise down, then leave. Also, I remember when you got pulled over, open booze containers in the car, and the cops would make you pour your booze out, then tell you to drive straight home.

What the fark happened?

/onion on my belt, etc.


War on drugs. They saw the money and applies the mantra to everything else.
 
2012-08-22 11:44:45 PM

dbubb: Everybody wants a puppy until it shiats in the lving room. When you host a college in your town and reap the economic benefits, you're going to have lots of this crap going on.

If you really want to get somewhere, fine the landlords for noise violations. That will clear things up.


there are cities without colleges in them? oh, you said towns.

but, depending on the state, you usually can sue the landlord. you definitely could if your landlord is also their landlord. people just need to start learning their rights. there's a remedy here, without the police. in fact, it is a little stupid, because nuisance stuff like this is not really criminal. there are effective civil remedies.

/ although, sometimes college kids take justice into their own hands... so maybe getting the cops involved is the best way to stay anonymous.
 
2012-08-23 01:58:42 AM

fnordfocus: SirDigbyChickenCaesar: And this is the destruction of the 4th amendment how exactly? Where is the unreasonable search or seizure?

Because it isn't a ticket for a noise violation.

It is a ticket for not letting the Cops in without a warrant. Technically, for not opening the door, but it's the same thing. Once the door is open y'all "knock and talk" and force your way in anyway.


No, it's not. Read the article again. It's a civil ticket for having a "disorderly house". Currently their only remedy is to arrest the people inside that are making the noise, and if they don't answer the door then getting inside requires a search warrant. They want to change it so they can basically just give a (non-criminal) ticket to the landlord/tenants without having to identify who is at the party.

Subby trolled the entire thread with the shiatty headline that distorts what's actually happening.
 
2012-08-23 02:15:19 AM
I would like to add here that they are throwing serious misdemeanor fees at civil infractions because Iowa law enforcement does not like to lose.

Things such as simple assault start at $50.

I don't see how such things can be argued.
 
2012-08-23 03:01:16 AM
I see a lot of people claiming that cops are "overreaching" when they see people doing something illegal and punish them for it.

Uh, how is that so? Someone really serious about hiding underage drinking or drug use from cops would be better off not being obnoxiously loud enough to keep the neighbors awake. Sure, you have your rights, but your rights end when they tread on my right to go to sleep at night.

If you're dumb enough to mix lawbreaking with an activity that you know attracts cops, then that's your own fault, kids. Learn the lesson and move on.

It's not an "unlawful search" if you're doing it right in front of the cop, and you don't have any right to privacy if you are in the act of violating noise codes that were put in place because your neighbors actually have jobs.
 
2012-08-23 03:32:05 AM

Tumunga: I remember the good old days when the cops would come to the front door, teenage drinking all about, and tell you the neighbors are complaining, turn the noise down, then leave. Also, I remember when you got pulled over, open booze containers in the car, and the cops would make you pour your booze out, then tell you to drive straight home.

What the fark happened?

/onion on my belt, etc.



Civil lawsuit lottomania happened.

Those kids drinking unsupervised at home? Well guess what, if one of those drunk kids does something stupid later that night, gets hurt, or dies from alcohol poisoning - and the parents find out the PD/city knew about the situation and did nothing about it - lotto time! The city will be sued for millions, and the cop will be sued for every penny he has ever earned in his adult life in addition to never working again. It's just not worth the risk of a $20 million dollar lotto payout.

Same with letting a "only slightly tipsy" driver go straight home. Nowadays if that driver hits someone on the way home, the cops life is ruined permanently. And the city will lose it's entire budget for the next 5 years.

Vote for whichever of your representatives who supports tort reform.
 
2012-08-23 09:33:09 AM

RandomRandom: Giltric: Solution.....talk to all local landlords and ask them for a key to the house/apartment and permission to enter their property to answer a complaint.

That's not how US law works.

The resident of a house has 4th amendment rights, not just the landlord. Even if the landlord gives the police a key, they still need a warrant. (And thank god we don't have a 2-class 4th amendment, one for home owners and another for renters. We have enough class division as it is.)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The 4th Amendment, it's your friend.


The 4th is antiquated like the 2nd.
I'm sure the founders couldn't see a future world where people play loud annoying dubstep throguh a 1000 watt stereo system keeping everyone around the neigborhood awake.
Electricity hadn't been invented yet.....neither was dubstep

Jefferson would have probably been the first to complain.....by putting a .60 caliber ball round through the hipsters forehead.
 
2012-08-23 01:17:19 PM

fnordfocus: MycroftHolmes: You understand that the police chief is not advocating breaking the constitution, right? He is basically telling the city that he will not waste his men's time trying to get a search warrant for a noise complaint. Which is why the city had to use code enforcement to do an end around on the search warrant. Nowhere in the article did it state or imply that the police were advocating warrantless searches.

Sounds like that's exactly what they're advocating.

Either you let them into your house without a warrant or you get a $1000 fine.


So, do you believe that all code enforcement is a violation of the 4th amendment? If I get ticketed in absentia for a decrepit house, do you consider that a constitutional violation? If not, how is this different?
 
2012-08-23 04:50:30 PM
Well.... 275 comments. I'm glad we all chipped in to settled this one and came to an amicable agreement.

/ The Power of Farktm. behold
 
2012-08-24 12:40:24 PM

MycroftHolmes: The implication in this statement is that the police feel that civil rights are a waste of time.


Exactly. Getting a warrant is not worth the time of the police so they decided to change the law. That's what the article was about.

MycroftHolmes: The questionable law enforcement is not being performed by the police. The police are not taking any actions that compromise civil rights. Municipal code enforcement is a separate entity from the police department.


The police and city council are changing a criminal law to a civil law so they don't have to get a warrant. That's what this is about. Again, the 4th amendment is annoying because warrants are annoying to get, therefore they changed this law. I don't get how you can possibly miss the civil rights implication here. What other new civil laws should we write so we can bypass the constitution?
 
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