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(The Gazette)   Problem: College students who know their legal rights are refusing to let the police enter their homes when they knock. Solution: Make that a civil offense, with fines up to $1000 per offense   (thegazette.com) divider line 253
    More: Scary, Iowa City, Iowa, local ordinance, Iowa City Press-Citizen, disorderly house, police Chief Sam Hargadine  
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20609 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2012 at 2:10 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-22 02:22:07 PM  

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


...that's pretty much exactly what's going on, here.
 
2012-08-22 02:22:41 PM  

Flakeloaf: Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.

^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems.


Uh, yeah it actually does. It's about looking for underage drinking and pot smokers. Look how amazingly successful the current system was:

Currently, if there's a disorderly house and there's a criminal complaint, that triggers a letter being sent to all of the tenants and the landlord. A second complaint results in a mandatory meeting.

Last year, there were 175 first-time offenses, eight second offenses and no third offenses, said Doug Boothroy, Iowa City's director of housing and inspection services.


The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?
 
2012-08-22 02:23:19 PM  

Aarontology: Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.


Yes. Yes it would.
 
2012-08-22 02:23:25 PM  

Mangoose: That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore..


How YOU doin'?
 
2012-08-22 02:23:31 PM  
And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.
 
2012-08-22 02:23:47 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Aarontology: Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it'd be another matter entirely.

Yeah, if the cops had a warrant it's be another matter

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 484x317]


LOL...I was just about to make the same reference, then noticed he said "entirely".

I guess you just said "fark it"...I like your style.
 
2012-08-22 02:24:11 PM  

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Yeah that seems to make much more sense than risking getting all those tickets thrown out... The ACLU would have a field day.
 
2012-08-22 02:24:37 PM  
Just call it a $1,000 tax if they refuse to let the police in. Problem solved.

/what, you thought the Constitution meant anything anymore?
 
2012-08-22 02:25:06 PM  
I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them

yea there are tricks, like if you don't go in someone could be hurt/killed
or evidence could be destroyed
" I heard someone yelling as if they were being injured"
done

cops do what the chief tells them to.
the chief is told what to do by the city council/ mayor etc.
if you don't want a routine call for a complaint
keep it the fark down or invite yer stuffy neighbor so there is no complaint.

seems so simple to avoid trouble
 
2012-08-22 02:25:07 PM  

cig-mkr: And just who are they going to fine the $1000?
I wasn't home at the time and didn't authorize any party your Honor.


In other news, it just got harder to get your roommate to put his name on the lease....
 
2012-08-22 02:25:15 PM  

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


Dude, we have politicians that believe it's their duty to save us from the evils of large soda sizes - you think lowering the alcohol drinking age is going to fly?

/wish we could - it's not helping.
//thanks MADD - you Neo-Prohibitionists.
 
2012-08-22 02:25:31 PM  

Flakeloaf: Dogberry: "The City Council voted 7-0 Tuesday night on the first consideration of an ordinance amending the city's nuisance rental property regulations to allow for a civil citation for disorderly house when occupants do not answer the door."

This is who can enact ordinances, biatch about them.

^^Read this.

This situation has nothing to do with cops kicking down doors looking for a roach and a penny-sleeve full of stems. This is about people in noisy houses who can't or won't answer teh door when someone asks them to turn their shiat off. Usually that's a courtesy call before your loud noise by-law kicks in and people start getting fines. This city's council has just taken away that privilege.

Solution: Turn your stereo down or invite your neighbours over.


Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.
 
2012-08-22 02:25:47 PM  

SandMann: I'm not a lawyer, but if the cops come to a party that is obviously a nuisance, isn't that a violation of the law and aren't they permitted to enter at that point? Just bring a vid cam to CYA and the cops should be fine.


Yeah, this the part I don't get. If you observe a party being illegally loud when you show up, how is that not probably cause to serve the criminal noise complaint to whoever is present. If it's a criminal complaint to be that loud, why would you need a warrant?
 
2012-08-22 02:26:13 PM  

Emposter: Ryan2065: After reading the article, it doesn't sound THAT bad. It looks like the city has an ordinance where, if you are a "disorderly house" you are fined. The rules say the police have to come to your house twice for noise complaints before anything is done, and you aren't instantly fined, there is a review process first.. Now, if you refuse to answer your door, the review process is started right away, and the city housing inspectors are told your house needs to be reviewed to see if it is disorderly and if they should or shouldn't be fined. If you disagree with the fine (if you are eventually fined) you can show up in court and dispute it, like a speeding ticket.

The article was a little light on the details, but that's what I pieced together from it.

Pretty much came to say this. I was even going to make a comparison to speeding cameras, where they fine you even though they don't know if it was you driving...similar to fining all the tenants even if they don't know you were at the party.


yeah, and making it a civil and not a criminal matter allows the issue to pass constitutional muster.

/ had a case here for camera tickets. since it was a criminal violation, it was constitutional. so, the people won. their remedy, legislators retroactively changed the law to civil, keep everyone's fines to date. what a victory
 
2012-08-22 02:26:55 PM  

lennavan: The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?


The current numbers are for people who participated in the current system. The current numbers do not capture the people who figured out they can just ignore the cops.
 
2012-08-22 02:28:31 PM  

Hydra: Just call it a $1,000 tax if they refuse to let the police in. Problem solved.

/what, you thought the Constitution meant anything anymore?


i know people love to say anymore, but it probably means more now (since the 70s) then it ever did when it comes to individual liberties.

/ back in the day, you could be tortured by cops to confess, so long as it wasn't in the court room.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:30 PM  

Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??


Not if you like federal funding for roads.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:30 PM  

Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged. On the other hand, fark teenagers. Those guys suck.

Also, what happened to the ol' "smelled marijuana" tactic? That's all any cop had to say when I was a young whore. Well that or, "when the door opened I witnessed ________ in plain sight", with the ____ being filled in with whatever crime you found on the other side of the door.


Medical Cannabis and violation of the ADA.
 
2012-08-22 02:29:50 PM  
fta: "Council member Terry Dickens said he did a ride along with police one night and saw officers knock on an apartment door for several minutes with a party going on inside."

How am I supposed to sleep at night knowing that, somewhere, college students are having a party. I demand protection for me and my family!
 
2012-08-22 02:30:06 PM  

Sybarite: I don't see why they have to bother with the provision about whether or not someone answers the door. Why not just set clear noise ordinance guidelines and fines for violating them, then have the cops write a citation and leave in on the front door the same way you would a parking ticket on a car?


Because that wouldn't result in arrests, which look great come budget time. If you get a chance to wander around a college party, you're going to find a bunch of petty nonsense: underage drinking, maybe some marijuana if you're lucky. Suddenly you are no longer essentially a meter maid, you are an ainti crime crusader whose job must be protected.

CSB: I made a policeman get a warrant to search my car once. I just sort of wanted to see what would happen. He radioed in, and the legal aces back at the station got a judge to issue a warrant. A cruiser dropped it off about an hour and a half later, they searched my trunk and found nothing. Looking back, it wasn't a good way to spend an afternoon.
 
2012-08-22 02:30:35 PM  
Pretend I put a question mark after the word party.
 
2012-08-22 02:31:44 PM  

consider this: Does everybody just go full retard whenever there's an article involving the police?


A lot of people sure do. Check out this dumbass who thinks it's impossible for cops to ask people to keep the noise down without entering their home:

consider this: The simple solution here is for the cops to show up, tell the people to keep the noise down and then be on their way. Dickheads are being dicks and not answering the door, meaning that the only way the cops can make contact is to get a warrant and kick in the door.


I bet he thinks there's an imaginary force outside the house that prevents people from talking and the doors are always soundproof. What a dumbass!

consider this: Once word gets around the the dickheads that there's a substantial fine for being a dick, they'll stop being dicks and answering the door. Better yet, maybe they'll stop being dicks and not make so much noise in the first place.

College dicks are dicks.

/dicks


Here's the thing - I'm not on the side of the college kids on this one. But it is what it is. This ordinance has absolutely nothing to do with keeping noise down. Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time. Why do we need to change that? We don't. They want to change it anyways because it's not about noise violations you dipshiat.
 
2012-08-22 02:31:51 PM  
Duck out a side or back door and walk up behind them and if you can help them.

Did it many times . Cops just want you to know that you are out of control and you need to real it in. Now the 2nd time they come back there better be less people and no one out in street dancing in their toga. Then it gets all cuffy.
 
2012-08-22 02:34:33 PM  
Call the landlord or hoa instead of the police. They can consider it an emergency and enter with their key.
 
2012-08-22 02:35:55 PM  
Subby doesn't understand the Constitution. The fourth amendment does not give us a right to refuse to obey the lawful directions and orders of peace officer. We have the right to refuse an unlawful search or seizure. Actually the city council here is doing these kids a favor. It is a misdemeanor offense to disobey a police officer; one can go to jail for doing it. The Iowa City council is making the refusal to answer the door for a police officer a civil offense that can be punished by a simple citation. A civil offense doesn't generate a criminal record, while a misdemeanor does.
 
2012-08-22 02:35:58 PM  

Mr Guy: lennavan: The current system has higher than a 95% success rate. You say it's not good enough. Care to explain that one to me?

The current numbers are for people who participated in the current system. The current numbers do not capture the people who figured out they can just ignore the cops.


What you're saying here is if cops get to charge you without evidence, you'll bust more people? I agree.
Or were you saying if cops get to search your house without a warrant, you'll catch more criminals? Because I agree there as well. Makes you wonder why the fark we make cops get a warrant and have evidence for anything, right?
 
2012-08-22 02:37:24 PM  
Next up... Cops go knocking on every door in town and anyone who doesn't answer gets a $750 fine the first time and then $1000 the second time.
 
2012-08-22 02:37:24 PM  

violentsalvation: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?

That's usually the best way to handle cops randomly showing up at your house, anyway.


well that and not talking to them as much as you can avoid it. answer verbally, then ask them to leave.
 
2012-08-22 02:37:57 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: Scenario 1: The cops knock on your door, you open it, they tell you they've had some noise complaints and don't come into the house and discover anything that you might be doing that they'd have grounds to arrest you for.


That probably worked until the cops abused the privilege.

If they cops were just asking the kids to quiet down, they'd answer the door. Why are they no longer answering the door? Because instead of just asking them to quiet down, cops often use an open door to find probably cause. For instance, were they see anyone at the party whom to their eyes might, possibly, maybe be under 21 and drinking a beverage, it could be used as probable cause to enter the premises. Once inside, they could search for further cause to arrest individuals or shut down the party.

If this ordnance passes, there's an easy and cheap solution available to the party houses. Build a DIY internal alcove with a secondary door. If done with 2x4's and plywood, it would probably cost all of a few hundred bucks. It could basically be a large piece of furniture. It wouldn't even need to be attacked to the interior of the house.

When the cops knock, the designated soberish and responsible pre-law student opens and locks the internal door behind them, answers the main door and has a pleasant conversation with the officer. A video + audio camera inside the alcove should be set up to record these encounters - a sign indicating the electronic monitoring should be prominently displayed .

Knowing about the video monitoring, the cop will be on his best behavior. The kids will be told to turn down the music and the cop will be on his way. Since they answered the door, this proposed ordinance won't come into play and there will be no fine. Since the cop cannot see the actual party, he can have no probable cause to enter. Even if he tried, the residents would not open the interior door until the exterior door was locked and the alcove was cop-less. 

Taa-Daa
 
2012-08-22 02:38:06 PM  
Step 1: Throw noisy party
Step 2: Invite the pigs in
Step 3: Shoot them, rob the corpse
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

/all I ever needed to know I learned from bad influences
 
2012-08-22 02:39:53 PM  
Every time I was at a party that was loud enough for a complaint, it has been do damn loud that there is no way we could have possibly heard the cops knocking so its not like the cops are being ignored and people are refusing to come to the door, they just cant be heard.
 
2012-08-22 02:40:48 PM  

consider this: lennavan: Their current method has a 95% success rate of preventing future noise violations and a 100% success rate after the second time.

Those stats do not include cases where officers can't make contact with the people in the home.


That is correct, those stats do not reflect any of the cases where the cops have no evidence. It's sad, you have clearly forgotten why the fourth amendment exists. I'm not the right person to teach you, I'll just end up being a dick about it.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]
 
2012-08-22 02:41:16 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: It's not that they're refusing to let officers in, it's that they're refusing to come and answer the door.

Personally, having lived next door to some annoying farktards who loved playing loud music at all hours of the night, i'd support just evicting the douchebags, rather than pansying around with a small fine.


Most leases have a clause stating that excessive noise violates the lease. All the cops have to do is take a tape recorded along and record it outside the door. Instant Evidence!
 
2012-08-22 02:42:02 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Question: Under this law, what if you keep the door closed, but only answer verbally?


"Candygram..."
 
2012-08-22 02:42:10 PM  

natas6.0: I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them


I hate them too. Literate people are so stuck-up and high and mighty with their books and newspapers. Screw them.
 
2012-08-22 02:42:19 PM  
Ok, I get the constitutional arguments and I agree with them. However, We do get call after call after call from pised off neighbors who demand the police enforce the peace disturbance laws. So let me ask, what would be a reasonable yet constitutionally protective way to handle these calls while at the same time understanding we can't spend all farking night on one noise complaint?

/hate these calls as a cop
//biggest violator of these laws when I was in college
 
2012-08-22 02:42:23 PM  

rubi_con_man: All the cops have to do is take a tape recorded along and record it outside the door. Instant Evidence!


Oh dear....
 
2012-08-22 02:42:35 PM  

umad: [latimesblogs.latimes.com image 500x287]
I AM THE LUH


FIFY

The remake better not change this.
 
2012-08-22 02:43:52 PM  
I just moved to DC. My roommates threw a housewarming jam for a few friends, and the cops were called. The cops showed up, asked us to turn it down, then offered the following suggesting to one of my roommates: "Quit smoking weed, too. We don't want to have to come back."

Why yes, we are white - why do you ask?

// cops in NW DC have better things to do than tell us to keep it down
// they had to yell over the gunfire
 
2012-08-22 02:43:53 PM  

consider this: lennavan: That is correct, those stats do not reflect any of the cases where the cops have no evidence.

Yes responding to a complaint and finding music blaring out of the home isn't proof of anything, especially a noise complaint.


So why again do they need to enter?
 
2012-08-22 02:44:34 PM  
College students being self-absorbed asshats annoying everyone within a city block around them while avoiding any social responsibility? Wow, there's a surprise.

A noise ordinance. The horror! Someone dust off a copy of the constitution and start gibbering about it.
 
2012-08-22 02:44:52 PM  

Lunaville: natas6.0: I passionatel yhate college types, so screw them

I hate them too. Literate people are so stuck-up and high and mighty with their books and iPads. Screw them.


FTFY nobody reads newspapers
 
2012-08-22 02:45:02 PM  

syberpud: Selector: Is there any college kid in america under 21 who hasn't had at least one alcoholic drink?? Can't we just get rid of stupid laws already??

Dude, we have politicians that believe it's their duty to save us from the evils of large soda sizes - you think lowering the alcohol drinking age is going to fly?

/wish we could - it's not helping.
//thanks MADD - you Neo-Prohibitionists.


The irony in MADDs' push to limit drunk driving and how that has been interpreted legally is that most drunk driving incidents are committed by people in their 40s and 50s per a friend who is a former cop.
 
2012-08-22 02:45:36 PM  

GAT_00: DammitIForgotMyLogin: Aarontology: DammitIForgotMyLogin: It just strikes me as an incredibly stupid move.

Think like a college student. Opening the door to the cops means they could see something illegal.

Or maybe they're just hoping they'll go away and think it's too much of a hassle to get a warrant over a noise complaint.

But surely making it so that they'll show up with a warrant to actually come in makes it more likely they'd see something illegal?

Yeah, it doesn't matter what the warrant is for, any criminal activity is considered a valid search under our absurd laws. The warrant can really be for anything, once inside it's all fair game.

Give it five years tops, and you'll see these hard on crime conservatives asking why we need warrants at all.


You know how I know you don't know the meaning of conservative?
 
2012-08-22 02:46:09 PM  
The City Council voted

Shocking! local government trampling on rights, we should give them more power to trample even more rights, amirite??
 
2012-08-22 02:46:58 PM  

robbiex0r: Do you have any idea what happens in a college town when police respond to a "noise complaint"? They breathalyze everyone in that house. Then they ticket the tenants for supplying and other things, often amounting to thousands of dollars per "host". Each underage person in attendance receives a fine no less than $250, and a lot more if it's a second offense. These "noise complaints" can just be cops driving around and hearing the sound of a party.


Sorry, my bad. I'm used to living in a civilized country where police tell the by-law people to handle by-laws, the by-law folks show up to ask everyone to be drunken idiots quietly and the stoners hold their breath until the nice man with the big ticket book is gone.
 
2012-08-22 02:47:10 PM  
They should enforce it against the jackasses with thumping woofers going down the street rattling windows at 3 a.m. as well. Noise nuisance is a noise nuisance whether you're being a jerk at home or cruising around or just running straight pipes on your Harley. A few $1000 fines would be a far better use of the officers' time than nabbbing people going 6 mph over the speed limit.
 
2012-08-22 02:47:29 PM  

Headso: local government trampling on rights, we should give them more power


No, dammit! That's the federal government's job!
 
2012-08-22 02:48:10 PM  
Not a lawyer, so maybe a real one could fill in the blanks here, but if the town had some sort of noise ordinance and the police:

1) Received a noise complaint at a residence, and
2) Arrived at said residence and while standing outside heard incredibly loud noises,

Wouldn't they have probable cause to enter the residence if the occupants didn't answer the door?
 
2012-08-22 02:48:25 PM  

consider this: Mangoose: On one hand, that is a blatant violation of the law and the police chief should be let go and then charged.

Amazing how people believe the bullshiat lie in subby's headline instead of reading the farking article.


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