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(ESPN)   Captain Gift Basket is now exactly 1000 hits away from Charlie Hustle   (espn.go.com) divider line 81
    More: Interesting, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, gift baskets, sidelines, Alex Rodriguez  
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1722 clicks; posted to Sports » on 22 Aug 2012 at 9:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-22 09:56:48 AM  
Charlie Hustle played for 23 years! He was allowed to play and manage at the same time for his last two years. I think his record is secure.
 
2012-08-22 10:01:47 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Charlie Hustle played for 23 years! He was allowed to play and manage at the same time for his last two years. I think his record is secure.


They said the exact same thing about Ty Cobb.
 
2012-08-22 10:02:25 AM  
I bet he'll never catch Rose.
 
2012-08-22 10:09:31 AM  
Everyone in the top 20 played 20+ years..Except Jeter. Pete Rose actually played for 24 according to baseball reference.. as did Ty Cobb
 
2012-08-22 10:20:56 AM  
kind of hard to argue about Jeter being a great ballplayer, and I hate the Yankees
 
2012-08-22 10:27:14 AM  
What is Ichiro's total (including Japan)? I would have to assume he would be closer than Jeter if those numbers were included (or if he played his entire career in the US)
 
2012-08-22 10:30:59 AM  
if there is any way jeter can screw over eric davis in eclipising the all time hit record?

ya know because that would be hilarious.... again
 
2012-08-22 10:32:59 AM  
I can't wait for Jeter to end up playing for the San Jose Athletics for half a year, only to get traded back to the Yankees to become their player manager, and he pencils himself into the lineup at SS every day and the team is terrible but no one cares because DEREK JETER and even goes to the ASG the next year and then he finally breaks the record and everyone is so happy that they induct him into the hall of fame as both a player AND a manager on the spot and

Sorry, what were we talking about?
 
2012-08-22 10:36:17 AM  

p the boiler: What is Ichiro's total (including Japan)? I would have to assume he would be closer than Jeter if those numbers were included (or if he played his entire career in the US)


Ichiro had 1278 hits in Japan, so his total is 3840 (at the moment).

'Course, if we start going down that road, we'd have to start talking about if Jeter's AAA numbers count and so on.
 
2012-08-22 10:36:46 AM  

Eraic: Everyone in the top 20 played 20+ years..Except Jeter. Pete Rose actually played for 24 according to baseball reference.. as did Ty Cobb


Cobb played with 150-154 game seasons. Not that much of a difference, but over 20+ years it adds up.
 
2012-08-22 10:41:49 AM  
If Jeter moves to a non-competitive middle-bottom dwelling team that can afford to have a sub-par defensive contributor with declining skills in his old age, then MAYBE (it would still be very farking unlikely). But with the Yankees? No way they allow him to stick around filling a roster spot at age 40 when they need to be competing for the pennant every year.
 
2012-08-22 10:47:33 AM  
Joe Posnanski asked Charlie Hustle about this a couple years ago. Pete said, "Tell him the first 3,000 are the easy ones."
 
2012-08-22 10:53:09 AM  

NotoriousW.O.P: Joe Posnanski asked Charlie Hustle about this a couple years ago. Pete said, "Tell him the first 3,000 are the easy ones.

Hey, wanna buy an autographed baseball? For an extra $200, I'll even write 'I'm sorry I bet on baseball'..."

/FTFY
 
2012-08-22 10:54:56 AM  
If you count all the axe-wound sized gashes he'shiat I'm sure he passed Rose quite some time ago.
 
2012-08-22 10:55:27 AM  
Jeter won't do it. Pete Rose played every position on the field at a high level. He made myself useful by being able to play everyday so he could get those At bats. Jeter has two positions, Shortstop and DH, and he's not a DH-type. He'll end up third or 4th on the all-time list, unless he keeps having years like he is now. He'll have to average 200 hits a season for five years, ages 39-44.
 
2012-08-22 11:03:37 AM  

WTF Indeed: Pete Rose played every position on the field at a high level.


I'm not quite sure how to describe the noise I made when I read this. It was kinda like "guh" with a dash of "ehhhhh" topped with an "ugh."

Defensive stats from the 60s/70s are obviously pretty hard to work with. But if we go by baseball-ref's dWAR, Pete Rose had just FIVE seasons where he a positive contributor: 1964 (.3 dWAR), '72-'74 (.7, 1.4, 1.4) and '76 (.6).

Pete Rose played (almost) every position, yes. But "at a high level?" Color me skeptical. Really, the only position he looks like he was above average was LF. I assume he would've been an above average 1B as well, but he mainly played that late in his career, when he wasn't an above average anything.

Besides, as bad as Jeter is at SS, he's still playing SS. It's very, very unlikely he couldn't play any other position at least as well as Rose did. He just doesn't because DEREK JETER YANKEE CAPTAIN
 
2012-08-22 11:09:45 AM  

WTF Indeed: Jeter won't do it. Pete Rose played every position on the field at a high level. He made myself useful by being able to play everyday so he could get those At bats. Jeter has two positions, Shortstop and DH, and he's not a DH-type. He'll end up third or 4th on the all-time list, unless he keeps having years like he is now. He'll have to average 200 hits a season for five years, ages 39-44.


Rose got there because he could keep penciling himself into the lineup even after he wasn't any good. From '82 to '86 he picked up another 559 hits while batting .261/.348/.315. That's not exactly the production you want from your first baseman.
 
2012-08-22 11:10:01 AM  
I have wrongly predicted Jeter's offensive demise before so I take my hat off to his continued productivity. But I'd bet my house he doesn't even scare 4,000 hits let alone catch Pete Rose.
 
2012-08-22 11:15:30 AM  
For everyone talking about declining skills and playing longer than you should, look at the careers of Babe, Rickey Henderson, etc. Pete Rose isn't the only player in history to benefit from longevity.
 
2012-08-22 11:21:20 AM  

babysealclubber: For everyone talking about declining skills and playing longer than you should, look at the careers of Babe, Rickey Henderson, etc. Pete Rose isn't the only player in history to benefit from longevity.


In general, longevity helps counting stats and hurts rate stats. So, sure, longevity helped Babe Ruth hit a billion HRs.

But Babe Ruth also hit .342/.474/*.690*. That last number has stars around it because it's STILL the career record.

Pete Rose hit .303/.375/.409, primarily playing as a 1B/LF. That's...not that good. But no one cares about that. They ONLY care about the hits...which are a direct result of playing long after he should've stopped.
 
2012-08-22 11:23:01 AM  
Oh God, can you imagine what baseball writers will be like if Jeter actually makes a serious run at this? ESPN will have to create the Maudeline Channel, which just shows hazy, Ken Burns-style shots of Jeter on the field contrasted against pictures of every pre-1969 player who ever swung a bat.
 
2012-08-22 11:23:58 AM  

babysealclubber: For everyone talking about declining skills and playing longer than you should, look at the careers of Babe, Rickey Henderson, etc. Pete Rose isn't the only player in history to benefit from longevity.


Babe Ruth's last full season - .288 BA, 22 HR, 84 RBI, 160 OPS+

Pete Rose's last five seasons - .261, 5 HR, 205 RBI, 86 OPS+
 
2012-08-22 11:24:52 AM  

jayhawk88: ESPN will have to create the Maudeline Channel, which just shows hazy, Ken Burns-style shots of Jeter on the field contrasted against pictures of every pre-1969 player who ever swung a bat.


That's called YES.
 
2012-08-22 11:33:18 AM  

DeWayne Mann: Pete Rose hit .303/.375/.409, primarily playing as a 1B/LF. That's...not that good


What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day

Yanks_RSJ: babysealclubber: For everyone talking about declining skills and playing longer than you should, look at the careers of Babe, Rickey Henderson, etc. Pete Rose isn't the only player in history to benefit from longevity.

Babe Ruth's last full season - .288 BA, 22 HR, 84 RBI, 160 OPS+

Pete Rose's last five seasons - .261, 5 HR, 205 RBI, 86 OPS+


That doesn't disprove anything I said.
 
2012-08-22 11:37:45 AM  

babysealclubber: That doesn't disprove anything I said.


Sure it does. Pete Rose hung on five years too long. Babe Ruth hung on 28 games too long. I don't consider the mere act of dragging your rotting corpse onto the field five years past your expiration date to be "longevity".

Babe Ruth was a good player until almost the very end. Pete Rose was not.
 
2012-08-22 11:38:55 AM  

babysealclubber: What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day


That's, uh, Batting Average, OBP, and Slugging. And, yes, .375 is a pretty good OBP...but a .409 SLG is TERRIBLE for a 1B.

Let's put it this way: John Olerud played 17 seasons as a 1B and has a career slash of .295/.398/.465. Anyone out there worried about Olerud not being in the Hall? I'm not.
 
2012-08-22 11:39:17 AM  

babysealclubber: What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day


That's BA/OBP/SLG. That's not an exceptional line but it's certainly above average, especially for the era, and he was way better than that in his prime. It's really only the tail end of his career he was hurting his team by playing.
 
2012-08-22 11:43:48 AM  

you have pee hands: Rose got there because he could keep penciling himself into the lineup even after he wasn't any good. From '82 to '86 he picked up another 559 hits while batting .261/.348/.315. That's not exactly the production you want from your first baseman.


Pete Rose was a Player/Manager from part of '84 to '86 where he got his last 194 hits. Anyone that talks "production out of a certain position" is a stuck in the numbers racket that is Sabermetrics. He was productive player at all the positions he played, which in the end is what counts. Can you see Derek Jeter playing LF or 1B or anything other than SS or DH? No you can't. Playing all those different positions is what kept Rose in the game, and if Jeter wants the record he better pickup an outfield glove and start shagging fly balls and learn to be a bench player.
 
2012-08-22 11:44:46 AM  

you have pee hands: he was way better than that in his prime.


I don't think "way better" is how I'd describe him in his prime. From the age of 25-35, he hit .317/.389/.445. Yes, he was playing more than just 1B/LF at the time, which increases his value somewhat (though, again, not significantly, as he was bad at those positions), but even so...not all that great. Certainly not "same sentence as Ruth" great.
 
2012-08-22 11:47:44 AM  

WTF Indeed: is a stuck in the numbers racket that is Sabermetrics.


Oh noes, how dare we analyze the game!

Seriously? Do you not see why a 1B needs to hit better than a 2B?
 
2012-08-22 11:52:45 AM  

WTF Indeed: Anyone that talks "production out of a certain position" is a stuck in the numbers racket that is Sabermetrics.


Wait wait wait..... you don't think that, say, a shortstop should be held to a different offensive standard than a first baseman? Because that's kinda silly.
 
2012-08-22 11:53:51 AM  

WTF Indeed: Can you see Derek Jeter playing LF or 1B or anything other than SS or DH?


Since corner outfield positions are ridiculously easy to play compared to any position up the middle, sure.
 
2012-08-22 11:57:15 AM  

WTF Indeed: Pete Rose was a Player/Manager from part of '84 to '86 where he got his last 194 hits. Anyone that talks "production out of a certain position" is a stuck in the numbers racket that is Sabermetrics.


This is totally wrong. Most of the stereotypes of what kind of hitter plays what kind of position (power from 1B, 3B, OF corners, speedy slappy leadoff type guys in SS, CF) come from traditionalists, not Sabermatics. Sabermatics says we try to objectively how valuable someone's contributions are, whatever they may be (hitting, drawing walks, power, fielding, even knowing when to take the extra base without getting caught).

There are probably 25 guys stuck in AAA who are MLB caliber hitters but can't field any position besides 1B or DH so they have nowhere to play. A 1B must be a much better hitter than a SS to hold down a lineup spot because the number of guys who can competently field SS at the major league level is small. Jeter will never DH or play 1B, not because he can't field the position, but because the Yankees have guys like ARod and Tex who are just much better hitters and aren't going to move from those positions. You can put almost anyone at 1B and most people in the corner OF. Can you imagine Dunn or Fielder or Thome trying to play center field or the middle infield?

Being on the Yankees would hurt his hits chase because they're not going to leave a guy in the lineup who can't play for sentimental reasons, and most of the positions old SSs can move to are locked down. I doubt he's really going for the record though.
 
2012-08-22 12:03:06 PM  

DeWayne Mann: I don't think "way better" is how I'd describe him in his prime. From the age of 25-35, he hit .317/.389/.445. Yes, he was playing more than just 1B/LF at the time, which increases his value somewhat (though, again, not significantly, as he was bad at those positions), but even so...not all that great. Certainly not "same sentence as Ruth" great.


He's definitely not in the same sentence as Ruth... but pretty much no one is. He was playing in a pitcher's era. That line's better than it looks.
 
2012-08-22 12:15:13 PM  

you have pee hands: That line's better than it looks.


The career line is a 118 OPS+. The peak line is a 133 OPS+.

Is he BAD? Absolutely not. But like I said...John Olerud. His career line was a 129 OPS+. His 25-35 OPS+ was 126 (though, interestingly, his 24-34 OPS+ was 134, demonstrating that it's REALLY hard to define peak. Rose's 24-34 was 131, for the record).

Even if we're nice to rose and say "Hey, OBP is way more valuable than slugging, and we should weight it appropriately", his career wRC+ is 120. Olerud's was 129.

Don't get me wrong: Rose was a better player than Olerud. But in terms of career batting...Rose ain't smelling too pretty.

(Ok, someone shoot me for that last line).

you have pee hands: Can you imagine Dunn or Fielder or Thome trying to play center field or the middle infield?


Which reminds me: the Astros played Brett Wallace at SS for 9 games in AAA. God I want to see that video.
 
2012-08-22 12:38:51 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Is he BAD? Absolutely not. But like I said...John Olerud. His career line was a 129 OPS+. His 25-35 OPS+ was 126 (though, interestingly, his 24-34 OPS+ was 134, demonstrating that it's REALLY hard to define peak. Rose's 24-34 was 131, for the record).


John Olerud needs to be enshrined simply so he can have a batting helmet instead of a baseball cap on his plaque.

/plus he and I share a birthday
 
2012-08-22 12:41:03 PM  

Yanks_RSJ: Babe Ruth's last full season - .288 BA, 22 HR, 84 RBI, 160 OPS+


I still have my cherished paper copy of the baseball encyclopedia. To this day I can go out to the garage and flip to Babe Ruth and I still go " Daaaaaaammmmmn " every time. I love to look at the league leaders during his heyday. Check out 1920 sometime - Ruth had more bombs than the #2,3 and 4 guys.... COMBINED. We'll never see anything like that again. He was the Babe Ruth of being Babe Ruth.
 
2012-08-22 12:42:14 PM  

IAmRight: DeWayne Mann: Is he BAD? Absolutely not. But like I said...John Olerud. His career line was a 129 OPS+. His 25-35 OPS+ was 126 (though, interestingly, his 24-34 OPS+ was 134, demonstrating that it's REALLY hard to define peak. Rose's 24-34 was 131, for the record).

John Olerud needs to be enshrined simply so he can have a batting helmet instead of a baseball cap on his plaque.

/plus he and I share a birthday


You know, Ricky used to play with a guy who wore a batting helmet in the field.
 
2012-08-22 12:54:43 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Is he BAD? Absolutely not. But like I said...John Olerud. His career line was a 129 OPS+. His 25-35 OPS+ was 126 (though, interestingly, his 24-34 OPS+ was 134, demonstrating that it's REALLY hard to define peak. Rose's 24-34 was 131, for the record).

Even if we're nice to rose and say "Hey, OBP is way more valuable than slugging, and we should weight it appropriately", his career wRC+ is 120. Olerud's was 129.

Don't get me wrong: Rose was a better player than Olerud. But in terms of career batting...Rose ain't smelling too pretty.

(Ok, someone shoot me for that last line).


That sounds to me like a better argument Olerud is underrated than anything else. A 133 OPS+ for 10 years is solid. If David Wright retired tomorrow, he'd have 9 years of a 136 OPS+. He's not Pujols, but he's a pretty good hitter. 

I don't think Rose is an all time great or anything and the hits record was silly number chasing. But sometimes IMO people overreact and the pendulum swings too far the other way. He was still a very good player for quite a long time.
 
2012-08-22 01:19:21 PM  

DeWayne Mann: You know, Ricky used to play with a guy who wore a batting helmet in the field.


Rickey is Rickey.
 
2012-08-22 01:26:28 PM  

you have pee hands: That sounds to me like a better argument Olerud is underrated than anything else.


Olerud IS underrated. But that doesn't make him a HOFer.

you have pee hands: But sometimes IMO people overreact and the pendulum swings too far the other way.


That's my job, sir! Are you trying to take away my livelihood?

you have pee hands: He was still a very good player for quite a long time.


And I've never said otherwise. Rose SHOULD be in the Hall. But I have seen people on this site call him the greatest hitter of all time. And if THAT'S not an overreaction, well....
 
2012-08-22 01:47:10 PM  

Crewmannumber6: kind of hard to argue about Jeter being a great ballplayer, and I hate the Yankees


Ditto
 
2012-08-22 02:05:43 PM  
Pete Rose led the NL in hits in 1981, when about 50 games were canceled because of the strike. Had he kept up the same pace, he would have finished with around 4,330.
 
2012-08-22 02:20:14 PM  

you have pee hands: babysealclubber: What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day

That's BA/OBP/SLG. That's not an exceptional line but it's certainly above average, especially for the era, and he was way better than that in his prime. It's really only the tail end of his career he was hurting his team by playing.


DOH! Should have read closer. Still, not bad.
 
2012-08-22 02:23:23 PM  

DeWayne Mann: babysealclubber: What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day

That's, uh, Batting Average, OBP, and Slugging. And, yes, .375 is a pretty good OBP...but a .409 SLG is TERRIBLE for a 1B.

Let's put it this way: John Olerud played 17 seasons as a 1B and has a career slash of .295/.398/.465. Anyone out there worried about Olerud not being in the Hall? I'm not.


Son of a biatch, a should have paid more attention, but one year doesn't equal a career, especially when you yourself said it was a sub par year for Rose.

Yanks_RSJ: Sure it does.


No it doesn't. All I said was there were other guys who benefited from longevity in their careers.
 
2012-08-22 02:25:12 PM  

DeWayne Mann: but a .409 SLG is TERRIBLE for a 1B.


Also, I'm not a stat-freak (I love stats, but don't have the time for them), but wouldn't your SLG be more concerned with a batting position than your defensive position?
 
2012-08-22 02:28:19 PM  
Jeter will break the record DHing for the terrible Astros. Book it
 
2012-08-22 02:30:11 PM  

babysealclubber: DeWayne Mann: babysealclubber: What? .303, .375 and .409 aren't good averages? I'd take a 1B/LF hitting .375 any freaking day

That's, uh, Batting Average, OBP, and Slugging. And, yes, .375 is a pretty good OBP...but a .409 SLG is TERRIBLE for a 1B.

Let's put it this way: John Olerud played 17 seasons as a 1B and has a career slash of .295/.398/.465. Anyone out there worried about Olerud not being in the Hall? I'm not.

Son of a biatch, a should have paid more attention, but one year doesn't equal a career, especially when you yourself said it was a sub par year for Rose.

Yanks_RSJ: Sure it does.

No it doesn't. All I said was there were other guys who benefited from longevity in their careers.


Yeah, using a terrible definition of longevity. Babe Ruth's longevity was due to the fact that he was still a superb baseball player. Rose's was due to the fact that he got to pencil his own name in the lineup every day.
 
2012-08-22 02:39:52 PM  

babysealclubber: DeWayne Mann: but a .409 SLG is TERRIBLE for a 1B.

Also, I'm not a stat-freak (I love stats, but don't have the time for them), but wouldn't your SLG be more concerned with a batting position than your defensive position?


OK, I'm REALLY glad I refreshed, because I was pulling my hair out trying to respond to your post before this...but this one tells me where a large part of your problem lies.

Bigger post coming up, I just have to start from scratch and figured I might as well warn you.
 
2012-08-22 02:49:20 PM  

DeWayne Mann: Bigger post coming up, I just have to start from scratch and figured I might as well warn you.


Heh. This should be good.
 
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